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	<title>Comments on: Words Won&#8217;t Stop Iran&#8217;s Nuclear Program</title>
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	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: midcon</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/words-wont-stop-irans-nuclear-program/comment-page-1#comment-66626</link>
		<dc:creator>midcon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 14:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13006#comment-66626</guid>
		<description>Oops  I said &quot;actually the cause of much the strike in our world..&quot;  I meant to say strife.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops  I said &#8220;actually the cause of much the strike in our world..&#8221;  I meant to say strife.</p>
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		<title>By: midcon</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/words-wont-stop-irans-nuclear-program/comment-page-1#comment-66608</link>
		<dc:creator>midcon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 13:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13006#comment-66608</guid>
		<description>sinz,

Sure I&#039;ll buy your plan of a Nuclear Missiles Licence, along with Jim&#039;s one world government.  But in the meantime - the more nations that have nuclear weapons, the more likely it is they will be used.  It is simple probability.   No different than individual firearms.  And further if you would propose such a scheme for nuclear missiles, one could argue for a U.S.  Firearms Licence, along with a top-to-bottom review, etc.

I honestly believe that the only way to stop the spread of nuclear weapons will be the use of such weapons by some nation.    Only that will bring home the horror of such weapons and contribute to non-proliferation.   I expect that given a nuclear Middle East (multiple nations with nukes) we will witness their use.    I also believe that we should be conducting research in how to handle and use radioactive oil and even how to drill, store and ship oil that comes a radioactive environment.    The only value that comes from the Middle East is oil.   Otherwise the entire region is not worth any time, effort or investment and is actually the cause of much of the strike in our world today.   

Imagine a world without the Middle East!  I do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sinz,</p>
<p>Sure I&#8217;ll buy your plan of a Nuclear Missiles Licence, along with Jim&#8217;s one world government.  But in the meantime &#8211; the more nations that have nuclear weapons, the more likely it is they will be used.  It is simple probability.   No different than individual firearms.  And further if you would propose such a scheme for nuclear missiles, one could argue for a U.S.  Firearms Licence, along with a top-to-bottom review, etc.</p>
<p>I honestly believe that the only way to stop the spread of nuclear weapons will be the use of such weapons by some nation.    Only that will bring home the horror of such weapons and contribute to non-proliferation.   I expect that given a nuclear Middle East (multiple nations with nukes) we will witness their use.    I also believe that we should be conducting research in how to handle and use radioactive oil and even how to drill, store and ship oil that comes a radioactive environment.    The only value that comes from the Middle East is oil.   Otherwise the entire region is not worth any time, effort or investment and is actually the cause of much of the strike in our world today.   </p>
<p>Imagine a world without the Middle East!  I do.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/words-wont-stop-irans-nuclear-program/comment-page-1#comment-66455</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 00:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13006#comment-66455</guid>
		<description>So, one world government is perfectly reasonable and conservative.  

Got it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, one world government is perfectly reasonable and conservative.  </p>
<p>Got it.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/words-wont-stop-irans-nuclear-program/comment-page-1#comment-66365</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13006#comment-66365</guid>
		<description>midcon:

Here in the United States, the Second Amendment does not obviate the need to get a gun license.  And when you want to drive a car, you have to get a driver&#039;s license.  The point is for you to demonstrate that you know what you&#039;re doing and can handle these deadly instruments responsibly.  Even the National Rifle Association has programs to teach safe and responsible gun ownership and use.

What is needed is something like that on the international level:  

The NPT tries to stop other nations from getting nukes.  They invariably reply why should the U.S., Russia and China have them while they can&#039;t?  

The answer is to require them to get a United Nations &quot;Nuclear Missiles License.&quot;  A top-to-bottom check of the regime to determine its stability, maturity, and peaceful intentions toward the rest of the world.  Only if they&#039;re judged responsible, sane, mature, and peaceful will they be allowed to obtain nuclear missiles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>midcon:</p>
<p>Here in the United States, the Second Amendment does not obviate the need to get a gun license.  And when you want to drive a car, you have to get a driver&#8217;s license.  The point is for you to demonstrate that you know what you&#8217;re doing and can handle these deadly instruments responsibly.  Even the National Rifle Association has programs to teach safe and responsible gun ownership and use.</p>
<p>What is needed is something like that on the international level:  </p>
<p>The NPT tries to stop other nations from getting nukes.  They invariably reply why should the U.S., Russia and China have them while they can&#8217;t?  </p>
<p>The answer is to require them to get a United Nations &#8220;Nuclear Missiles License.&#8221;  A top-to-bottom check of the regime to determine its stability, maturity, and peaceful intentions toward the rest of the world.  Only if they&#8217;re judged responsible, sane, mature, and peaceful will they be allowed to obtain nuclear missiles.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/words-wont-stop-irans-nuclear-program/comment-page-1#comment-66363</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13006#comment-66363</guid>
		<description>midcon: &lt;blockquote&gt; It’s the Second Ammendment argument - If everyone had guns then everyone would be safe? Is that the argument for nukes? If that’s the case, shouldn’t we proliferate nukes rather than engaging in futile efforts to prevent their spread? &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, up to a point, this is the gun control/gun rights argument all over again.  Do more guns in the hands of the decent and law-abiding deter crime?

&lt;i&gt;BUT&lt;/i&gt; the analogy breaks down when &lt;i&gt;externalities&lt;/i&gt; are considered:  

If you shoot someone to death, eventually the body is removed, the blood on the ground is mopped up, and that is that.  Maybe an innocent bystander or two is caught in the crossfire, but that can be cleaned up easily as well.

Whereas if two nations that are separated by some distance attack each other with nuclear missiles, the arable land may be poisoned for who knows how long.  And the radioactive fallout may drift into other nations, or into the sea, killing the fish on which the entire world depends for food.  In the worst-case scenario, some of the nuclear missiles may drift off-course and hit neighboring nations, dragging them into the conflict.  This could cause a chain reaction in which more and more nations get dragged into what started out as a &quot;regional&quot; nuclear war.

So while it seems to be too politically incorrect to say it, nuclear missiles should be reserved for nations with DEMONSTRATED maturity and restraint:  The U.S., China, India, and Russia.  A nation that has shown irresponsibility in the past should not be trusted with nukes either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>midcon:  It’s the Second Ammendment argument &#8211; If everyone had guns then everyone would be safe? Is that the argument for nukes? If that’s the case, shouldn’t we proliferate nukes rather than engaging in futile efforts to prevent their spread?<br />
Yes, up to a point, this is the gun control/gun rights argument all over again.  Do more guns in the hands of the decent and law-abiding deter crime?</p>
<p>BUT the analogy breaks down when externalities are considered:  </p>
<p>If you shoot someone to death, eventually the body is removed, the blood on the ground is mopped up, and that is that.  Maybe an innocent bystander or two is caught in the crossfire, but that can be cleaned up easily as well.</p>
<p>Whereas if two nations that are separated by some distance attack each other with nuclear missiles, the arable land may be poisoned for who knows how long.  And the radioactive fallout may drift into other nations, or into the sea, killing the fish on which the entire world depends for food.  In the worst-case scenario, some of the nuclear missiles may drift off-course and hit neighboring nations, dragging them into the conflict.  This could cause a chain reaction in which more and more nations get dragged into what started out as a &#8220;regional&#8221; nuclear war.</p>
<p>So while it seems to be too politically incorrect to say it, nuclear missiles should be reserved for nations with DEMONSTRATED maturity and restraint:  The U.S., China, India, and Russia.  A nation that has shown irresponsibility in the past should not be trusted with nukes either.</p>
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		<title>By: midcon</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/words-wont-stop-irans-nuclear-program/comment-page-1#comment-66344</link>
		<dc:creator>midcon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 12:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13006#comment-66344</guid>
		<description>sinz;  and yet you cannot stop the spread of nuclear weapons.   To carry the scenario to it&#039;s logical conclusion - nuclear weapons spread until all nations and all groups who can afford them have them.   And then what?  Let&#039;s see you live in Mass.   So let&#039;s say someone is sitting at Logan with a nuke and off it goes.   Let&#039;s say we retaliate against the nation or group -  Mass.  is still gone.   We get our revenge.  But Mass. is still gone.

It&#039;s the Second Ammendment argument - If everyone had guns then everyone would be safe?  Is that the argument for nukes?  If that&#039;s the case, shouldn&#039;t we proliferate nukes rather than engaging in futile efforts to preven their spread?

The real argument against the spread of nukes is that the more nations that have them, the more likely they will be used at some point.   Perhaps we have already reached that stage, especially if direct military action is being discussed to prevent their further spread.  How much of leap is it from there to actual tactical use to prevent their further spread?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sinz;  and yet you cannot stop the spread of nuclear weapons.   To carry the scenario to it&#8217;s logical conclusion &#8211; nuclear weapons spread until all nations and all groups who can afford them have them.   And then what?  Let&#8217;s see you live in Mass.   So let&#8217;s say someone is sitting at Logan with a nuke and off it goes.   Let&#8217;s say we retaliate against the nation or group &#8211;  Mass.  is still gone.   We get our revenge.  But Mass. is still gone.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the Second Ammendment argument &#8211; If everyone had guns then everyone would be safe?  Is that the argument for nukes?  If that&#8217;s the case, shouldn&#8217;t we proliferate nukes rather than engaging in futile efforts to preven their spread?</p>
<p>The real argument against the spread of nukes is that the more nations that have them, the more likely they will be used at some point.   Perhaps we have already reached that stage, especially if direct military action is being discussed to prevent their further spread.  How much of leap is it from there to actual tactical use to prevent their further spread?</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/words-wont-stop-irans-nuclear-program/comment-page-1#comment-66309</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13006#comment-66309</guid>
		<description>midcon:  &lt;blockquote&gt; Only when all nations come to the conclusion that their national security does not depend on nuclear weapons will the need for nuclear weapons disappear. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
But it does depend on nuclear weapons.

Nuclear weapons are the ULTIMATE deterrent against invasion by a hostile power.  

If Kuwait had nukes, Saddam would never have invaded in 1990.

If Taiwan has nukes, they will never have to worry about being swallowed up by the Chinese again.

North Korea has nukes, and that&#039;s the main reason why the U.S. has taken military options off the table.  U.S. planners don&#039;t want to lose South Korea to a retaliatory nuclear strike.

You can&#039;t wish those facts away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>midcon:   Only when all nations come to the conclusion that their national security does not depend on nuclear weapons will the need for nuclear weapons disappear.<br />
But it does depend on nuclear weapons.</p>
<p>Nuclear weapons are the ULTIMATE deterrent against invasion by a hostile power.  </p>
<p>If Kuwait had nukes, Saddam would never have invaded in 1990.</p>
<p>If Taiwan has nukes, they will never have to worry about being swallowed up by the Chinese again.</p>
<p>North Korea has nukes, and that&#8217;s the main reason why the U.S. has taken military options off the table.  U.S. planners don&#8217;t want to lose South Korea to a retaliatory nuclear strike.</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t wish those facts away.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/words-wont-stop-irans-nuclear-program/comment-page-1#comment-66308</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13006#comment-66308</guid>
		<description>midcon:  &lt;blockquote&gt; The reality is, the only way to stop the spread of nuclear weapons is to eliminate them all and to take decisive action against any and all states who are engaged in a program to develop those weapons. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
&quot;Decisive action&quot; will mean pre-emptive war. Against any pipsqueak nation that attempts to violate the international restrictions.

And that&#039;s a pipe dream.

Once all nukes are eliminated, the first pipsqueak nation that defies world opinion and builds even a few nukes, even Lower Slobbovia,  will hold the United States hostage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>midcon:   The reality is, the only way to stop the spread of nuclear weapons is to eliminate them all and to take decisive action against any and all states who are engaged in a program to develop those weapons.<br />
&#8220;Decisive action&#8221; will mean pre-emptive war. Against any pipsqueak nation that attempts to violate the international restrictions.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s a pipe dream.</p>
<p>Once all nukes are eliminated, the first pipsqueak nation that defies world opinion and builds even a few nukes, even Lower Slobbovia,  will hold the United States hostage.</p>
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		<title>By: midcon</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/words-wont-stop-irans-nuclear-program/comment-page-1#comment-66283</link>
		<dc:creator>midcon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13006#comment-66283</guid>
		<description>The U.S. has never been able to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons:  Israel, China, Pakistan, India, North Korea.   Does anyone believe that it can be successful in doing that in Iran without extreme action.   So, Obama is faced with the same dilemma that his precedessors, both Republican and Democrat were faced with -  accomodation and control or drastic action.   We have a long history of accomodation and the likelihood of drastic action on our part is almost nil.    

We rule out accomodation because we believe that Iranian leadership is fanatical and that their use of nuclear weapons is not just conceviable but probable.   Yet, countries like Israel would think nothing of employing their weapons if they were face with the threat to their existence.   Are they no less fanatical?

The reality is, the only way to stop the spread of nuclear weapons is to eliminate them all and to take decisive action against any and all states who are engaged in a program to develop those weapons.  Otherwise, we will continue to face new threats from other nations who want to join the nuclear club.  Only when all nations come to the conclusion that their national security does not depend on nuclear weapons will the need for nuclear weapons disappear.   You will not have world where all other nations accept that just a few nations can and should have such weapons.   Negotiation and accomodation are merely delaying strategies.   They are not solutions.

I am not a peacenik by any means as I work in the nuclear weapons arena, but I am a realist.  If I were able, I would create a world where we were the only ones with nuclear weapons, but then if I could do that there would be no need for ours.

This is a no win situation for Obama; for administrations the preceeded him and for administration that will succeed him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The U.S. has never been able to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons:  Israel, China, Pakistan, India, North Korea.   Does anyone believe that it can be successful in doing that in Iran without extreme action.   So, Obama is faced with the same dilemma that his precedessors, both Republican and Democrat were faced with &#8211;  accomodation and control or drastic action.   We have a long history of accomodation and the likelihood of drastic action on our part is almost nil.    </p>
<p>We rule out accomodation because we believe that Iranian leadership is fanatical and that their use of nuclear weapons is not just conceviable but probable.   Yet, countries like Israel would think nothing of employing their weapons if they were face with the threat to their existence.   Are they no less fanatical?</p>
<p>The reality is, the only way to stop the spread of nuclear weapons is to eliminate them all and to take decisive action against any and all states who are engaged in a program to develop those weapons.  Otherwise, we will continue to face new threats from other nations who want to join the nuclear club.  Only when all nations come to the conclusion that their national security does not depend on nuclear weapons will the need for nuclear weapons disappear.   You will not have world where all other nations accept that just a few nations can and should have such weapons.   Negotiation and accomodation are merely delaying strategies.   They are not solutions.</p>
<p>I am not a peacenik by any means as I work in the nuclear weapons arena, but I am a realist.  If I were able, I would create a world where we were the only ones with nuclear weapons, but then if I could do that there would be no need for ours.</p>
<p>This is a no win situation for Obama; for administrations the preceeded him and for administration that will succeed him.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/words-wont-stop-irans-nuclear-program/comment-page-1#comment-66279</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Liberals have always believed in the perfectability of man.  They believe that if crimes occur or wars break out, it&#039;s the easy availability of weapons that makes &quot;misunderstandings&quot; or &quot;desperation&quot; erupt into wars or shootouts.

That&#039;s why liberals have always been hot to trot about gun control here in the States.  International disarmament is just gun control scaled up to the level of national regimes.  And arms-control treaties have never brought peace, any more than gun control laws have brought peaceful societies.

The marauders will always be there.  And they&#039;re not deterred by pieces of paper.

And I predict Obama is going to learn that lesson in the not too distant future.
As that other naif, Jimmy Carter, learned, 30 years ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liberals have always believed in the perfectability of man.  They believe that if crimes occur or wars break out, it&#8217;s the easy availability of weapons that makes &#8220;misunderstandings&#8221; or &#8220;desperation&#8221; erupt into wars or shootouts.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why liberals have always been hot to trot about gun control here in the States.  International disarmament is just gun control scaled up to the level of national regimes.  And arms-control treaties have never brought peace, any more than gun control laws have brought peaceful societies.</p>
<p>The marauders will always be there.  And they&#8217;re not deterred by pieces of paper.</p>
<p>And I predict Obama is going to learn that lesson in the not too distant future.<br />
As that other naif, Jimmy Carter, learned, 30 years ago.</p>
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