RSS Feed MenuI’ve been reading the ongoing debate about where libertarians belong with some interest. Folks like Brink Lindsey are arguing that the conservative-libertarian alliance must end, and that libertarians must make their own way. Bloggers like Tim Lee and Mark Thompson go even further, arguing for a left-libertarian alliance (the libertarian argument that Lindsey was a part of until recently). The argument for leaving conservatives behind is the same in both camps: conservatism in America is made up of those who might talk a good game about freedom, but in reality are not interested in freedom when it comes to civil liberties or acceptance of various minorities.
This is what Tim Lee says:
Conservatives care about “protecting individual liberty” for some people, but the conservative movement includes many people who are indifferent, if not hostile, to the liberty of foreigners, immigrants, drug users, gays and lesbians, women who want abortions, broadcasters, sex workers, criminal defendants, Muslims, publishers of pornography, atheists, and so forth. It’s true, of course, that you can compile a similar list (gun owners, business owners, etc) on the progressive side. But I see no reason to think the progressive list is longer, or that the people on that list are somehow more important, than the people on the conservative list.
This belief is shared not just by some libertarians, but conservatives and Republicans as well. More than once I’ve seen people come to the fore with the sunny hopes of presenting a more inclusive vision of conservatism and the GOP, only to give up months later when they encounter some of the darker sides of the American right.
This all leads me to wonder: can American conservatism ever be reformed?
There really isn’t a strong movement in the United States that is committed to a more moderate version of conservatism. There are a few groups, but there is no strong reformist presence within what makes up the American right in the same way that there is in the United Kingdom. Across the pond, the Tory Reform Group has been around for 35 years representing a more moderate brand of conservatism and they can be credited for helping get the Conservative Party back in power.
But the impulse here in the States among those on the right who are dissatisfied with the state of things, is to simply walk away. Whether its Brink Lindsey now touting a “libertarian centrism” or Tim Lee flirting with the left, the usual result of frustrated folks on the right is not to change things, but to leave and look for greener pastures.
Why is that? Why is there no impulse to change the right?
I think I have a few reasons.
The first is the word “conservative.” When someone uses that word it is almost always about the more negative aspects of human nature. If a community or person has issues with same-sex marriage we tend to say that they are “conservative.” Conversely, the word “liberal” tends to have more positive connotations. All the philosophical meanings of conservatism that came from people like Edmund Burke or Russell Kirk are never thought of in common parlance. If being a conservative means being anti-gay or suspicious of immigrants, well, who would want to be a part of that, let alone try to reform it?
Related to that, is how we see conservatism. If conservatism is made up of bigots, whom we believe can’t change, then why bother trying to reform anything?
Finally, I think there has been so little impulse for a renewed conservatism, because there has not been a keen vision of what a renewed conservatism would look like. While there has been some attempt to start this project, for the most part there really has not been any strong desire to frame a new conservatism for the 21st century. There’s a lot of talk about what conservatism was like in the 1980s under Reagan, or about the moderate Republicanism of the 1950s through the 70s, but very few have said this is what conservatism should look like today.
If you are someone under say, 40 years old who believes in limited government, but sees a conservatism that is filled with bigots and with no one really crafting a more positive vision, then you would probably want to ignore the conservatives and leave them to their fate.
For me, the question is not whether American conservatism can reform, but should it reform. I believe wholeheartedly that it should. The reason I believe it has to reform has to do with the fact that unless something radical happens, we live in a two-party system. While many folks have left the conservative movement, there are still a fair number that remain and they are more radical than ever. They are less thoughtful and deeply suspicious of anyone that doesn’t think or see things in the way they do. It is a movement that is built more on resentment than on the sunny conservatism that Ronald Reagan once espoused. On paper, a party like this should be on the margins, but because of our two-party system, they are the alternative to Obama and the liberals. As the alternative, it means they have a greater shot at winning. As Jeffrey Goldberg has noted in his blog posts on Sarah Palin and the New York mosque controversy, a simple-minded conservatism is dangerous to the health of our democracy.
Cross-posted at NeoMugwump.
sinz54 // Jul 25, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Terry F98: Can anybody here please give me an example of where a major broadcaster apart from FOX has deliberately altered video, photographs or Audio to misrepresent an item.
Reuters got caught in deliberate Photoshopping of news photos to create a false impression:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War_photographs_controversies
CNN and the Associated Press also were accused of similar acts (though the evidence isn’t quite as strong).
Rabiner // Jul 25, 2010 at 1:05 pm
And this is why you don’t get into an argument over ‘one side doesn’t do this while the other side always does it’ because there is always going to be times where that isn’t the case. It devolves a discussion into nit picking stupidity. JeninCt’s list is a stupid as when TerryF98 pulls up a list of Obama’s accomplishments that goes on for 100 points.
These things have nothing to do with the discussion at hand over why Moderates are leaving the Republican Party. The issue is that when you don’t fall into an ideological bubble of Conservatives you’re labeled a RINO and they try to kick you out.
JeninCT // Jul 25, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Rabiner wrote:
“There is a reason that Fox News viewers have been shown to be less knowledgeable about the stories and issues of the day, it’s because everything is reported on through a prism as opposed to being unfiltered.”
…”have been shown”? By whom? When and where?
And I really don’t care if you think it’s nit picking.
Rabiner // Jul 25, 2010 at 1:56 pm
JeninCT:
There have been multiple polls showing Fox Viewers believing things that just aren’t true by wide discrepancies over those who watch other news outlets.
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200908230016
This clip details an NBC News Poll which shows that 75% of fox viewers thought that there were ‘death panels’ in the Health Care Reform bill versus 30% of the rest of the public. And Frum is in the clip for kicks.
“In our poll, 72% of self-identified FOX News viewers believe the health-care plan will give coverage to illegal immigrants, 79% of them say it will lead to a government takeover, 69% think that it will use taxpayer dollars to pay for abortions, and 75% believe that it will allow the government to make decisions about when to stop providing care for the elderly. But it would be incorrect to suggest that this is ONLY coming from conservative viewers who tune in to FOX. In fact, 41% of CNN/MSNBC viewers believe the misinformation about illegal immigrants, 39% believe the government takeover stuff, 40% believe the abortion misperception, and 30% believe the stuff about pulling the plug on grandma.”
From Think Progress and this Guardian (UK) site: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2009/aug/19/healthcare-fox-news-viewers
That’s just with the Health Care Debate.
Also you can go to Liberal Viewer on YouTube to look at instances of pretty distinct fox news bias on their news programming (not commentating shows).
The issue isn’t is it ‘nit picking’ but is listing each time the tea party is made fun of by someone calling them ‘tea baggers’ worth while in this discussion? Personally I’d rather call them misinformed individuals who are just angry.
JeninCT // Jul 25, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Rabiner: The links about the tea party were to show the leftist media’s unfair (and rude) portrayal of them and the MSM (NY Times, WaPo, NBC, CNN, ABC, CHicago Tribune and CBS) either trying to discredit them, ignore them or marginalize them and their numbers.
You are simply highlighing an incorrect portrayal of Fox viewers.
Apparently you think that since:
“41% of CNN/MSNBC viewers believe the misinformation about illegal immigrants, 39% believe the government takeover stuff, 40% believe the abortion misperception, and 30% believe the stuff about pulling the plug on grandma,” and Fox viewers believe differenty, that Fox viewers must be wrong? Has it occurred to you that Fox viewers are the ones that are right? No, of course not.
And I find it amusing that you expect me to take a Media Matters poll as proof of anything relating to Fox News. That’s laughable.
Rabiner // Jul 25, 2010 at 3:13 pm
JeninCT:
“And I find it amusing that you expect me to take a Media Matters poll as proof of anything relating to Fox News. That’s laughable.”
You’re moronic. It isn’t a Media Matters poll, it’s an NBC News Poll. The link I sent you was from Media Matters who archived the TV show that spoke about the poll with David Frum speaking about it as well. You’ll also note that he doesn’t speak poorly of the poll since it’s a respected poll. Rather than take the 2:30 seconds to view the link which is actual television unedited, you attack the site that archived the broadcast. I never said that Media Matters is not a liberal site (it is), but the information they show is not liberal or conservative but reality.
“You are simply highlighing an incorrect portrayal of Fox viewers.”
How am I highlighting an incorrect portrayal of Fox Viewers? Please enlighten me on how a Poll that shows that Fox Viewers are 31% more likely to believe that Health Care Reform covers illegal immigrants, 30% more likely to believe that Health Care Reform would allow for government paying for elective abortions, and 35% more likely to believe in ‘death panels’ shows an ‘incorrect portrayal of Fox Viewers? Clearly the media that these people consume has had an impact on their understanding of the issue being discussed and a misrepresentation of facts distorts the political discourse in this country.
JeninCT // Jul 25, 2010 at 5:52 pm
“It isn’t a Media Matters poll, it’s an NBC News Poll” Not much difference, and regardless, polls ask literal questions, and in contrast I (and I am assuming many Fox viewers) extrapolate what is likely to happen as well, based on what we have already witnessed with our government. For example, you can tell me till you’re blue in the face that the Health Insurance Reform will be deficit neutral. I say there’s no way, based on the history of other massive government programs.
I know there are no ‘death panels’ per se but I do know government bureaurocrats will determine which treatments will be paid for and approved for any given ailment. If you need something that’s not an approved treatment, for example, the off-label pharmaceutical, you’ll likely be out of luck. I also believe that tax money will be used to fund abortions, ultimately, and that illegal immigrants will be covered, eventually. I don’t trust the administration or this congress. Are these things clearly written into the bill? Ask Nancy Pelosi, even she says we’ll have to pass it to see what’s in it.
Yes, I’m a cynic, but the handwriting is on the wall, some of us see it more clearly.
anniemargret // Jul 25, 2010 at 8:02 pm
rabiner: You can also add in that the majority of Fox News watchers were seriously wrong about the Iraq war and our reasons why we entered in it. The majority of them (since most are supportive of Bush/Cheney), still thought *years after we invaded* that it had something to do with the events of 9/11. In fact, ask your everyday Republican on the street why we are in Iraq – they will still use the 9/11 event to justify it, although that was just a silly little bit of ‘truthiness’ there by Fox and company.
That’s a sad commentary on the state of ignorance in this country. The facts are out there, but how many are actually getting them?
jenin: you knew there were no ‘death panels’ even when Sarah Palin said there would be so?
Then you are rare in a sea of Fox News watchers that believed that deceptive and dangerous canard slipped in by SP. The majority of people listening to Sarah Palin and watching Fox thought there would be ‘death panels.’ That’s how absurd it got to be. A bunch of little old ladies and gents thought the U.S. Government under President Obama was going to put them through ‘death panels.’
This was an egregious and immoral thing to do, just like fooling folk about why we invaded Iraq.
You also say you ‘believe’ the reform healthcare will pay for abortions (but that was explicitly shown it would not), and that illegals would also be covered (which they also said would not).
I understand you don’t trust the Congress (or the President because obviously you don’t lean liberal), but who are you going to trust? Sarah Palin for Prez? She’s lying now, imagine if she became more powerful.
Frankly I would rather see some type of healthcare reform than the status quo which is what Republicans want. They want to do nothing. Zip. zero. People are actually dying from the pitiful state our healthcare insurance industry is in, or else being forced into bankruptcy, and that concerns me. Does it concern you, or is the deficit all you worry about? Does it not trouble you that Americans are actually dying from not being able to carry the high costs of healthcare insurance, or else being turned from it due to preexisting conditions?
If it’s the deficit you most worry about, then start putting some criticism back at the GOP which is still leaning to unnecessary wars and military funding. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars are now estimated to cost this country *$1 trillion.*
Do you support the embargo against unemployment benefits for those out of work or do you support it? After all, the Republicans are worried about the deficit, not out of work Americans.
Rabiner // Jul 25, 2010 at 9:00 pm
JeninCT:
““It isn’t a Media Matters poll, it’s an NBC News Poll” Not much difference, and regardless, polls ask literal questions, and in contrast I (and I am assuming many Fox viewers) extrapolate what is likely to happen as well, based on what we have already witnessed with our government. For example, you can tell me till you’re blue in the face that the Health Insurance Reform will be deficit neutral. I say there’s no way, based on the history of other massive government programs. ”
The poll didn’t ask about budget issues. It asked about common misconceptions about the Bill and what the contents were. So happened Fox News consumers were wildly less accurate in knowing what was in the bill and so happened to also be far more likely to be against the bill provisions. Seems like a strong correlation.
Also do you have a problem and don’t trust any poll that doesn’t have Fox News, Wall Street Journal, or Rasmussen as the authors? Because all NBC polls are done with complete transparency so you can read the cross tabs if you desire.