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	<title>Comments on: Why Big Coal Shouldn&#8217;t Kill the Climate Bill</title>
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	<link>http://www.frumforum.com/why-big-coal-shouldnt-kill-the-climate-bill</link>
	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: Rabiner</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/why-big-coal-shouldnt-kill-the-climate-bill/comment-page-1#comment-130054</link>
		<dc:creator>Rabiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38421#comment-130054</guid>
		<description>Sinz54:

&quot;The answer to climate change is not to be punitive (raise the price of existing energy with taxes and emissions trading), but to launch an accelerated program to commercialize alternative sources of energy, including nuclear. That’s the only answer Americans will accept in a time of economic distress: Show you can improve their standard of living, not make it worse.&quot;

That is exactly what we should do, be punitive against polluting forms of energy. They profit from what they produce while the externalities are paid by society or government. That&#039;s not right and makes coal artificially cheaper than it should be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sinz54:</p>
<p>&#8220;The answer to climate change is not to be punitive (raise the price of existing energy with taxes and emissions trading), but to launch an accelerated program to commercialize alternative sources of energy, including nuclear. That’s the only answer Americans will accept in a time of economic distress: Show you can improve their standard of living, not make it worse.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is exactly what we should do, be punitive against polluting forms of energy. They profit from what they produce while the externalities are paid by society or government. That&#8217;s not right and makes coal artificially cheaper than it should be.</p>
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		<title>By: dante</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/why-big-coal-shouldnt-kill-the-climate-bill/comment-page-1#comment-129896</link>
		<dc:creator>dante</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38421#comment-129896</guid>
		<description>Sinz54

&lt;blockquote&gt;A solar-and-wind-only bill won’t be passed, and it shouldn’t be passed.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Why?  Why are you letting perfect be the enemy of good?  If we can use gov&#039;t subsidies to promote wind and solar, why are you going to oppose that just because it doesn&#039;t have something &quot;from the other side&quot;?  I don&#039;t see why a good bill should be derailed just because the public opinion has swung against the GOP&#039;s position on off-shore drilling.  Because the climate bill will be delayed now until after the elections, and if the GOP picks up seats / control of Congress you&#039;re going to see a drilling bill come out that has a neutered wind/solar component.  Here&#039;s a better idea, pass wind and solar now, and when the GOP gets into control pass an offshore drilling bill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sinz54</p>
<p>A solar-and-wind-only bill won’t be passed, and it shouldn’t be passed.</p>
<p>Why?  Why are you letting perfect be the enemy of good?  If we can use gov&#8217;t subsidies to promote wind and solar, why are you going to oppose that just because it doesn&#8217;t have something &#8220;from the other side&#8221;?  I don&#8217;t see why a good bill should be derailed just because the public opinion has swung against the GOP&#8217;s position on off-shore drilling.  Because the climate bill will be delayed now until after the elections, and if the GOP picks up seats / control of Congress you&#8217;re going to see a drilling bill come out that has a neutered wind/solar component.  Here&#8217;s a better idea, pass wind and solar now, and when the GOP gets into control pass an offshore drilling bill.</p>
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		<title>By: JJWFromME</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/why-big-coal-shouldnt-kill-the-climate-bill/comment-page-1#comment-129831</link>
		<dc:creator>JJWFromME</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38421#comment-129831</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t blaming coal companies, I was blaming the filibustering minority party in the senate:

http://apture.s3.amazonaws.com/00000129f64171db8c5f265b007f000000000001.yearly_graph.jpg

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/07/research_desk_graphs_more_fili.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t blaming coal companies, I was blaming the filibustering minority party in the senate:</p>
<p><a href="http://apture.s3.amazonaws.com/00000129f64171db8c5f265b007f000000000001.yearly_graph.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://apture.s3.amazonaws.com/00000129f64171db8c5f265b007f000000000001.yearly_graph.jpg</a></p>
<p><a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/07/research_desk_graphs_more_fili.html" rel="nofollow">http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/07/research_desk_graphs_more_fili.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/why-big-coal-shouldnt-kill-the-climate-bill/comment-page-1#comment-129823</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38421#comment-129823</guid>
		<description>JJWfromME:  

The cap-and-trade bill didn&#039;t fail because of lobbying by coal.

Originally, the bill had a decent chance of garnering moderate GOP support, with its sweeteners for offshore drilling and nuclear power.

Then the BP disaster happened, and out went those sweeteners.

A solar-and-wind-only bill won&#039;t be passed, and it shouldn&#039;t be passed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JJWfromME:  </p>
<p>The cap-and-trade bill didn&#8217;t fail because of lobbying by coal.</p>
<p>Originally, the bill had a decent chance of garnering moderate GOP support, with its sweeteners for offshore drilling and nuclear power.</p>
<p>Then the BP disaster happened, and out went those sweeteners.</p>
<p>A solar-and-wind-only bill won&#8217;t be passed, and it shouldn&#8217;t be passed.</p>
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		<title>By: JJWFromME</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/why-big-coal-shouldnt-kill-the-climate-bill/comment-page-1#comment-129816</link>
		<dc:creator>JJWFromME</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38421#comment-129816</guid>
		<description>This author of this post says nothing about his own party&#039;s filibuster junkies in the senate--that&#039;s the 800 pound gorilla here, not Obama or Reid.

If coal can really take care of its externalities (and not just give the appearance that it is), then it deserves to survive:

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/carbon-capture-on-the-cheap/

However, I&#039;m deeply skeptical that coal companies will do anything besides meet the immediate need of their shareholders. And meeting those needs will include confusing the public with greenwashing campaigns, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This author of this post says nothing about his own party&#8217;s filibuster junkies in the senate&#8211;that&#8217;s the 800 pound gorilla here, not Obama or Reid.</p>
<p>If coal can really take care of its externalities (and not just give the appearance that it is), then it deserves to survive:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/carbon-capture-on-the-cheap/" rel="nofollow">http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/carbon-capture-on-the-cheap/</a></p>
<p>However, I&#8217;m deeply skeptical that coal companies will do anything besides meet the immediate need of their shareholders. And meeting those needs will include confusing the public with greenwashing campaigns, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/why-big-coal-shouldnt-kill-the-climate-bill/comment-page-1#comment-129771</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38421#comment-129771</guid>
		<description>dante: &lt;blockquote&gt; Utilize the resources in your area, whether it’s hydro, wind, solar, etc, and augment it with gas or nuclear power plants. Seems pretty simple to me. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
It seems simple to me too.

The answer to climate change is not to be punitive (raise the price of existing energy with taxes and emissions trading), but to launch an accelerated program to commercialize alternative sources of energy, including nuclear.  That&#039;s the only answer Americans will accept in a time of economic distress:  Show you can improve their standard of living, not make it worse.

I had submitted to FrumForum a diary on the new miniaturized nuclear reactors, which would enable even towns to get electricity from their own safe nuclear reactors and profit by selling the excess electricity to the national grid.  Unfortunately, FrumForum chose not to publish this diary.

You can read about this exciting development for yourself:

http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/product.html

(Disclaimer: I&#039;m not affiliated with them)

To get the airlines to switch from propeller-driven airliners to jet airliners, it didn&#039;t require a government tax on propellers.  The airliners switched as soon as jet planes were shown to be safe and affordable, by Boeing with its 707.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dante:  Utilize the resources in your area, whether it’s hydro, wind, solar, etc, and augment it with gas or nuclear power plants. Seems pretty simple to me.<br />
It seems simple to me too.</p>
<p>The answer to climate change is not to be punitive (raise the price of existing energy with taxes and emissions trading), but to launch an accelerated program to commercialize alternative sources of energy, including nuclear.  That&#8217;s the only answer Americans will accept in a time of economic distress:  Show you can improve their standard of living, not make it worse.</p>
<p>I had submitted to FrumForum a diary on the new miniaturized nuclear reactors, which would enable even towns to get electricity from their own safe nuclear reactors and profit by selling the excess electricity to the national grid.  Unfortunately, FrumForum chose not to publish this diary.</p>
<p>You can read about this exciting development for yourself:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/product.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/product.html</a></p>
<p>(Disclaimer: I&#8217;m not affiliated with them)</p>
<p>To get the airlines to switch from propeller-driven airliners to jet airliners, it didn&#8217;t require a government tax on propellers.  The airliners switched as soon as jet planes were shown to be safe and affordable, by Boeing with its 707.</p>
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		<title>By: dante</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/why-big-coal-shouldnt-kill-the-climate-bill/comment-page-1#comment-129756</link>
		<dc:creator>dante</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38421#comment-129756</guid>
		<description>In my area, coal is pretty much finished.  At the main utility-owned power plant, there used to be 1-2 trains per day bringing in coal, and you could smell it in the air on a  non-windy day when you were in that neighborhood (yes, the power plant is located *downtown* for some reason).  Now it&#039;s been completely converted to natural gas.  The state-owned power plant is being sued by the Sierra Club under the clean air act, and the governor has stated that the state will wind down coal burning at state-owned power plants by 2012.  Anything that&#039;s built new around here (Madison, WI) are either wind farms or converting coal power plants to gas.  That&#039;s it.

Oh, and to Claude, go watch King Coal to see how they&#039;re (not) providing a middle class income to the populations around the mountain-top mining areas.  It&#039;s wholesale destruction on an unprecedented level, and since it&#039;s much less labor-intensive than traditional mining, they need far fewer people to do it.  It&#039;s a pretty eye-opening documentary, and shows that even if you burn it &quot;clean&quot;, there&#039;s the entire process of removing it from the ground that&#039;s nowhere near &quot;clean&quot;. 

Maybe it&#039;s just that I grew up about 5 miles from a nuclear power plant, but we definitely need to be building more nuclear plants in this country.  Utilize the resources in your area, whether it&#039;s hydro, wind, solar, etc, and augment it with gas or nuclear power plants.  Seems pretty simple to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my area, coal is pretty much finished.  At the main utility-owned power plant, there used to be 1-2 trains per day bringing in coal, and you could smell it in the air on a  non-windy day when you were in that neighborhood (yes, the power plant is located *downtown* for some reason).  Now it&#8217;s been completely converted to natural gas.  The state-owned power plant is being sued by the Sierra Club under the clean air act, and the governor has stated that the state will wind down coal burning at state-owned power plants by 2012.  Anything that&#8217;s built new around here (Madison, WI) are either wind farms or converting coal power plants to gas.  That&#8217;s it.</p>
<p>Oh, and to Claude, go watch King Coal to see how they&#8217;re (not) providing a middle class income to the populations around the mountain-top mining areas.  It&#8217;s wholesale destruction on an unprecedented level, and since it&#8217;s much less labor-intensive than traditional mining, they need far fewer people to do it.  It&#8217;s a pretty eye-opening documentary, and shows that even if you burn it &#8220;clean&#8221;, there&#8217;s the entire process of removing it from the ground that&#8217;s nowhere near &#8220;clean&#8221;. </p>
<p>Maybe it&#8217;s just that I grew up about 5 miles from a nuclear power plant, but we definitely need to be building more nuclear plants in this country.  Utilize the resources in your area, whether it&#8217;s hydro, wind, solar, etc, and augment it with gas or nuclear power plants.  Seems pretty simple to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Claude</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/why-big-coal-shouldnt-kill-the-climate-bill/comment-page-1#comment-129568</link>
		<dc:creator>Claude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 00:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38421#comment-129568</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think anyone really likes coal as an energy source.  Mining it is dirty and dangerous, but it gives people with limited education a chance at a middle class income.  That&#039;s why politicians, including President Obama, embrace &quot;clean coal technology,&quot; even though it&#039;s largely mythical and probably always will be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone really likes coal as an energy source.  Mining it is dirty and dangerous, but it gives people with limited education a chance at a middle class income.  That&#8217;s why politicians, including President Obama, embrace &#8220;clean coal technology,&#8221; even though it&#8217;s largely mythical and probably always will be.</p>
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		<title>By: jabbermule</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/why-big-coal-shouldnt-kill-the-climate-bill/comment-page-1#comment-129549</link>
		<dc:creator>jabbermule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 23:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38421#comment-129549</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m usually against big government regulation, but coal-firing plants emit about 40% of greenhouse gases in the United States, and I think it&#039;s time we initiated a gradual program to eliminate these behemoths and replace them with nuclear power plants that recycle its spent rods (like the French). This is a clear example of an externality that the free market will simply not eliminate on its own, so it&#039;s time liberals backed up their rhetoric about climate change and finally did something useful.

For example, by throwing the cap and trade program under the bus last week, Harry Reid has proven himself once again to be nothing more than a partisan hack who uses environmental policy to bludgeon Republicans but little else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m usually against big government regulation, but coal-firing plants emit about 40% of greenhouse gases in the United States, and I think it&#8217;s time we initiated a gradual program to eliminate these behemoths and replace them with nuclear power plants that recycle its spent rods (like the French). This is a clear example of an externality that the free market will simply not eliminate on its own, so it&#8217;s time liberals backed up their rhetoric about climate change and finally did something useful.</p>
<p>For example, by throwing the cap and trade program under the bus last week, Harry Reid has proven himself once again to be nothing more than a partisan hack who uses environmental policy to bludgeon Republicans but little else.</p>
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