President Obama yesterday condemned as “tax cheats” US companies that benefit from lower corporate tax rates abroad. Problem: since almost every country on earth offers a lower corporate tax rate than the US, how are we to know which international investments are bona fide and which are “cheating”?
This is an especially urgent question since everybody agrees that the US must earn more overseas to pay its Chinese creditors.
Short answer: new reporting requirements plus 800 new IRS inspectors!
Long answer: the Barack Obama administration will leave the US economy much more heavily regulated – much more tightly inspected – and thus far less dynamic and competitive than the US economy of the past 3 decades.
45 responses so far
1 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 5:34 am
David, maybe most of your audience are financially illiterate. The corporate tax rate in the US at 35% is on the face of it one of the highest in the western world. The trouble is it doesn’t reflect the reality where a corporate tax system riddled with loopholes means the effective rate is around 6.3%. Many major US corporations in fact pay little or no taxes although they have earnings of billions. As for retained earnings overseas the most recent figures available are for 2004 when the effective rate on retained earnings overseas was just over 2%. This is a big problem and has been for years. For David the answer is do nothing while penning another oped piece bemoaning the future size of the deficit.
2 LJS // May 5, 2009 at 5:42 am
The tax code as I understand it allows
firms to put off paying taxes on profits made overseas as long as those earnings are invested back into the overseas subsidiaries.
To me this seems to be an incentive to invest (JOBS) in foreign countries and not in the USA.
3 Bulldoglover100 // May 5, 2009 at 5:43 am
But David….are you too blind to see where the past 3 decades have gotten us??? I am as against government regulation as the next guy but the reality is that left to their own devices, the majority abuses. Wall street, Bankers and so many jobs going over seas. We must have some regulation, we must have some tax dollars. case in point on the government would Texas. 2 weeks ago they were talking about leaving the United States and a week later, in a panic, they were asking for help from the government during the swine flu scare. We all drive on roads and we all drink clean water. We all have some family or friends who have utilized at least some form of government assistance if we are being honest.
While I do not want government involved anymore than they have to be let’s at least be smart enough to state the obvious and that is we do need some regulation. Is Obama’s way the correct way? After the last 6 months of this country failing under George Bush letting the kids run wild with the candy jar? I’m not sure anymore. I am open to listen and to see what happens. If he’s wrong? The country will know it and we will go back to winning elections again. But to tilt like a wind mill at anything that he says? Will keep us as the nut job party.
ottovbvs is dead on correct with his information. Perhaps YOU need to let him write for the New Majority because his answer really does speak for many of us out here.
4 krove // May 5, 2009 at 5:49 am
Here is the rub.
KBR Bushco’s favorite contractor has twp offshore shell companies. How much tax does it pay on the billions of government contracts.
ZERO, NOTHING,ZIP.
A USA based company that pays NO taxes. There are many of these.
How is that right?
Also Obama is saying, pay your US taxes and you will get a r&d credit of the same amount.
5 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 5:59 am
LJS
wrote 7 minutes agoThe tax code as I understand it allowsfirms to put off paying taxes on profits made overseas as long as those earnings are invested back into the overseas subsidiaries.
To me this seems to be an incentive to invest (JOBS) in foreign countries and not in the USA.
……This summary is essentially correct. I’ve actually run a company where we did this. Usually what happens in practice is that you accumulate substantial balances in the overseas subsid and then spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to repatriate them. Some companies use transfer pricing to accentuate the effect. Every so often the govt declares a tax holiday on repatriated profits as the Bush admin did about four years ago on the theory they are going to create “new jobs at home.” They seldom do. To be fair I’ve also worked in overseas corporations where the practice worked in reverse ie. they could accumulate tax sheltered balances in US subsids. It’s basically a corporate boondoggle.
6 barker13 // May 5, 2009 at 6:13 am
Re: Ottovbvs; wrote 33 minutes ago –
Whether your numbers are absolutely correct or not, the concept is what’s important. Good post, Ott.
Re: LJS; wrote 25 minutes ago –
Yep. Seems that way to me, also.
Re: Ottovbvs; wrote 8 minutes ago –
Again… thanks for the info.
BILL
7 sinz54 // May 5, 2009 at 6:19 am
Basic Economics 101 tells you that raising taxes on business in the middle of a deep recession is insane. Raising taxes in 1936-37 helped prolong the Great Depression by three more years. (Prior to that, the New Deal was starting to have some effect.)
There is no economic justification for even talking about raising taxes on anybody while the economy is as weak as it is now. Obama should be ashamed of himself.
What Obama should have promised, is that there will be no tax increases on anybody anywhere until after the economy has recovered.
8 sinz54 // May 5, 2009 at 6:22 am
krove: Oh, is that what this is all about? Punishing KBR and other multinationals, the favorite boogeyman of the hard left?
Maybe Americans don’t know that on hard-left websites like Commondreams.org and HuffingtonPost, the hard-core left has been railing against anonymous “multinationals” for years as having raped the environment and exploited the Third World (what kinds of jobs did those Third World people have before?).
What Obama is doing is just reflecting that bias against multinationals.
Everything he does is just hard left, again and again and again. It’s couched in soft, reasonable-sounding, even moderate rhetoric. But the action itself could have come right off Commondreams.org. Every time.
9 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 6:37 am
sinz54
wrote 12 minutes agokrove: Oh, is that what this is all about? Punishing KBR and other multinationals, the favorite boogeyman of the hard left?
…No one is punishing anyone….it’s a corporate shell game
“Basic Economics 101 tells you that raising taxes on business in the middle of a deep recession is insane.”
…..The proposals don’t take effect until the 2011 tax year.
barker13
wrote 20 minutes agoRe: Ottovbvs; wrote 33 minutes ago –
“Whether your numbers are absolutely correct or not,”
…..They are correct…the annual shifts are marginal
10 sinz54 // May 5, 2009 at 7:00 am
ottovbvs: What if the U.S. economy hasn’t fully recovered by January 2011? Liberals keep comparing this recession to the Great Depression. Well, that lasted 8 years. Raising taxes in 1936-37 helped prolong it.
I’ll say it again: This proposals should have been triggered to go into effect only AFTER there has been at least three consecutive quarters of strong GDP growth. Otherwise, they run the risk of either prolonging the recession, or creating a “double-dip” recession in which the recovery is killed and goes back into recession again.
Just Obama discussing raising taxes at a time when we’re in a recession and unemployment is soaring can have a chilling effect on business plans. He should keep his mouth shut on all tax increases for now.
11 JJWFromME // May 5, 2009 at 7:26 am
“US companies that benefit from lower corporate tax rates abroad.”
Come on. “Abroad” in a many cases is like a post office box on an island with a half a dozen palm trees and 0 percent tax rate.
But I suppose if you’re going to defend Doug Feith and torture policies in such a lawyerly fashion, it isn’t a big surprise that you’d defend KBR and our mega-weasel financial corporations as well.
12 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 7:37 am
sinz54
wrote 29 minutes ago
“What if the U.S. economy hasn’t fully recovered by January 2011? Liberals keep comparing this recession to the Great Depression.”
…What if the sky has fallen….no serious economist believes this is going to last until 2011…read conservatives Wesbury and his buddy in Forbes this morning and they think it’s nearly over now!!…..I don’t but it certainly will be by next spring…..And “liberals” don’t keep comparing this to the GD any more than conservatives do…..it media bs
13 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 7:43 am
JJWFromME
wrote 11 minutes ago
Come on. “Abroad” in a many cases is like a post office box on an island with a half a dozen palm trees and 0 percent tax rate.
……I have to say this leaping to the defense of corporate shell games aimed at tax avoidance does have a certain performing seal quality to it. I find it very hard to believe any of the folks posting this nonsense are corporate titans or personally benefit from any of this boondogerry but they trot out the talking points with no reference to reality like reciting Excelsior.
14 sinz54 // May 5, 2009 at 7:53 am
ottovbvs: What Obama is doing is this: First he enormously expands the Federal budget with two-trillion dollar deficits. He says that he was forced to do this in order to stimulate the economy out of recession. And that the recession will be over in a couple of years at most. So what does he propose we do at that point? Not rein in the spending and go back to smaller budgets. But raise taxes on corporations to raise revenue for those huge budgets.
That’s just wrong.
If Obama is intent on bringing us “Great Society II” as a permanent fixture of U.S. society, then I’m just going to oppose it.
15 sinz54 // May 5, 2009 at 7:54 am
ottovbvs: Oops, I meant “three trillion dollar BUDGETS.”
16 barker13 // May 5, 2009 at 8:02 am
Re: Sinz54; wrote 53 minutes ago –
“What if the U.S. economy hasn’t fully recovered by January 2011?”
“What if…?!?!”
Sinz. What sort of “recovery” is it you envision…???
Now I myself spend way too much time blogging here at NM, but I also read the straight news – particularly financial and foreign policy related – as well as staying abreast of trends.
Do you have ANY idea what policies FHA is pursuing?
Do you have the faintest idea of how shaky public as well as private pension plans are across the nation?
Unemployment is going to get worse, not better; and as I’ve predicted time and again, 2010 is going to see raging inflation – stagflation.
What are the solid, concrete, specific fundamentals you point to in order to buttress your apparent optimism?
Re: Ottovbvs; wrote 15 minutes ago –
“…no serious economist believes this is going to last until 2011…”
Let me guess. You follow the same “serious economists” who didn’t see the present disasters coming.
(*SMIRK*)
BILL
17 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 8:02 am
sinz54
wrote 4 minutes ago
……Loosing the argument….change the subject…..This is corporate tax dodge and Obama is going to close it to assist in reducing the deficit. You don’t agree with his programs but that’s a totally different matter from the equitable tax treatment of corporate profits…..He won the election on his programs…. you lost….it’s called democracy.
18 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 8:08 am
barker13
wrote 0 minutes ago
“Let me guess. You follow the same “serious economists” who didn’t see the present disasters coming.”
…..Actually a lot serious economists including some you wouldn’t approve of like Krugman and Summers forecast this was going to happen. They were writing Editorials about it in The Economist nearly three years ago!……So you are saying you believe the current recession is going to last until 2011….can we enter that in the record.
19 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 8:12 am
barker13
wrote 6 minutes ago
“Unemployment is going to get worse, not better; and as I’ve predicted time and again, 2010 is going to see raging inflation – stagflation.”
…..Who doesn’t believe unemployment is going to continue rising throughout this year….it is however a lagging indicator……and we’re not going to see raging inflation in 2010 or stagflation
20 sinz54 // May 5, 2009 at 8:50 am
ottovbvs sez: “This is corporate tax dodge and Obama is going to close it to assist in reducing the deficit.”
Robert Reich, who’s no conservative, said that Obama is using this to raise tax revenue to finance national health care.
http://tinyurl.com/deswpv
So we’re back to “Tax and Spend” government. You’re right, I think that stinks. And we’ll reverse it as soon as the pendulum swings back our way. It may take a while. But it will.
21 sinz54 // May 5, 2009 at 8:54 am
ottovbvs: Obama didn’t win the election by promising permanently vastly higher Federal spending, to be financed with permanently vastly higher taxes. He kept that a close secret.
Then he got inaugurated, and said he had to spend a lot more money to get us out of the recession.
But now, his plans to raise taxes in 2011 prove that he never thought of his vastly increased Federal spending as just a temporary measure to cope with the economic crisis. Rather, he wants it made permanent.
And that’s wrong.
22 RLHotchkiss // May 5, 2009 at 9:50 am
Here is the central problem with Frum’s enterprise. The past thirty years haven’t been good for the average American. They have seen their incomes and benefits stagnate while there has been a significant rise in the costs of the basics of middle class lifestyle: housing, health insurance, and college education. If Frum’s new majority is going to be based on the good times of the last thirty years, than he is not exactly going to be growing the party.
23 RLHotchkiss // May 5, 2009 at 9:55 am
I have to say that Obama was quite clear that he was going to allow the Bush tax cuts to expire and to significantly increase federal domestic spending.
24 sinz54 // May 5, 2009 at 10:50 am
RLHotchkiss: It’s a myth that middle-class incomes have stagnated. All you have to look at is how their *consumption* has increased. The sizes of homes has increased, and nearly all homes today have climate control. Some of the most popular vehicles are expensive Ford F-150 trucks and Ford Explorer SUVs.
How did this happen? Because of greater fringe benefits–generous 401(k) contributions from their employers, and because the value of their homes increased, and they cashed out the value of their homes by refinancing. 401(k) contributions, which are tax free at the time of contribution, are not counted as “income” on a worker’s W-2 statement. He only enjoys that money after retirement.
Finally, each successive generation goes to college at a higher rate than the previous generation. And college graduates have done well. Your “average American” is really a blue-collar working-class American. And yes, he has done poorly. But that’s just the way things are. Automation and foreign competition are pricing him out of the market.
Foreign competition is the result of the end of the Cold War. Our former enemies, like China, are now our trading partners. Would we have preferred to go back to the Cold War and fear global thermonuclear war?
25 barker13 // May 5, 2009 at 11:35 am
Re: Ottovbvs; 8:08 AM –
“Krugman and Summers forecast this was going to happen. They were writing Editorials about it in The Economist nearly three years ago!”
I notice you didn’t provide any links…
(*SNORT*)
Anyway, Krugman ALWAYS predicts doom around the corner whenever there is a Republican in the White House.
As to “nearly three years ago”… I knew where Bush’s monetary policies would lead this nation from the moment he made clear he would be a “weak dollar” president and when it became clear he wouldn’t use his veto to rein in Republican spending.
Anyway… rather that get all caught up in who said what when… I also notice you didn’t take a crack at responding to my question about how the fundamentals are supposedly changing.
(*SHRUG*)
“So you are saying you believe the current recession is going to last until 2011….can we enter that in the record.”
Everything in cyberspace is “on the record,” Otto.
(*SMIRK*)
What I’m saying is that we’re going to see stagflation next year and that whether we’re technically in a “recession” or not in 2011 or 2012, the American way of life as we knew it… especially as it spun out of control in the ’90’s (based upon in large part illusionary economic growth which ended up as the tech bubble) and in the early-mid years of this decade (real estate bubble)… is no more.
Our children and grandchildren by and large won’t do better than us. They won’t have bigger and better homes and cars, they won’t take more expensive, more elaborate vacations, they won’t build up the kind of nest eggs that will enable them to retire to split their leisure time between golfing and cruising…
(*SIGH*)
We’re heading for Western European lifestyles.
Hey… not the horror of horrors… but to those of us who believe Americans should have better… well… the country is moving in the opposite direction – TOWARDS the European socialistic collectivist egalitarian model.
We’ve squandered our nation’s heritage and our children’s futures.
Oh… and back to my point about actually answering my question about whic fundamentals you would point to in order to buttress your optimism… WHERE’S SINZ…???
I’ll give you credit, Ott… at least you’ll take a stab at double-talking your way around direct questions.
(*WINK*)
BILL
26 LJS // May 5, 2009 at 11:43 am
Interesting facts
in 1979 most households had 1 salary earner today most have 2.
According to a Mercer CEO compensation study based on proxies issued in 2008. On average, at the 350 companies surveyed by Mercer, CEOs got $7.3 million. That comes to $28,000 per working day
The Corporate Library, an independent research firm, found in its survey that average CEO compensation in 2007 came to $5.3 million. That comes to $20,400 per working day, lower than the average worker’s annual salary.
27 barker13 // May 5, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Re: RLHotchkiss, 9:50 AM vs. Sinz54
wrote 45 minutes ago –
RL. Sinz is right in the narrow sense that as consumers our generation kicked ass compared to past generations.
What Sinz neglects to mention is that first and foremost, much of this consumerism was tied to the switch from tradition breadwinner/housewife/kids to mom and dad both working. While this must have been great back in the late ’60’s and ’70’s when mom’s income was basically either “mad money” or “nest egg savings” as time went on a two-earner household became almost mandatory to live a true middle class existence… and when it wasn’t… we’re talking the next level down (lower middle class) or up (upper middle class).
Also, much of the spending – be it lifestyle or investment – was fueled by debt based upon speculation. Also, many of my generation (I’m 46) and those younger than me (now in their late 20’s and their 30’s) were subsidized by their parents and grandparents in a way that historically only the wealthy took care of their kids and grandkids.
Those who earned their own way and made it big… again… how many of these jobs were unsustainable and are unsustainable as we’ve seen over the past year?
America has deindustrialized. Where are the future jobs coming from? “Green jobs?” (*SNORT*) Healthcare? Yeah… only the healthcare has to be paid for so every new “healthcare” position is a sinkhole of private funds and increasingly government funds.
Sinz talks about college. What a joke! Our educational system is largely dysfunctional. In most cases a college education is merely the most expensive interview entry qualification you’re ever going to need and more and more we’re moving towards a system where a masters is the “listing” you need to get past the velvet rope.
I’d bet that your average liberal arts grad knows far less than your average 1940 high school grad who went into the military, came out and took advantage of the GI bill and got a college degree – same with your average business degree recipient.
Big deal. You have a degree in English… your native language. (*SNORT*) Heck… what’s a degree in computer science and programing skills worth when the American holder of those skills is competing against Indians and Chinese with the same or better skills, more of a work ethic, and willing to work for less?
I know I’m skipping around and rambling a bit, but you folks need to wake the frig up. The developing “free” world economy is leaving America behind.
When the once almighty dollar is… er… one component of a basket of reserve currencies and oil is back up to $150/bbl and Ford joins either Chrysler in bankruptcy or GM in government/union ownership and the Chinese are the worlds number one producer of “real” cars and flagship aerospace operations that will crush Boeing…
(*SIGH*)
I can’t believe how many people just can’t seem to see the reality of this nation’s decline.
BILL
28 midcon // May 5, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Plenty of people see the decline, but they are too polarized to do anything about it. Facing reality is only necessary when your alternative universe has collapsed. One extreme depends on government to shelter them from the storm. The other depends on God.
If we can outsource combat as we did in Iraq, where do you draw the line? We have outsourced everything from cleaning our houses and mowing our lawns to inventing our products and fighting our wars. If we were only able to overturn Roe v Wade, everything would just fall into place and be all right in America – well after we deport 12 million people who don’t belong here and get the tax rate down to zero.
Did I forget the chicken in every pot?
29 ChristianMiller // May 5, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Sorry to come in off topic but I’m a bit annoyed. A comment of mine was deleted on another thread. If you see my comments stop in the future it will be because I am banned from this site. If I decide to stop commenting (also possible) I’ll let everyone know.
30 barker13 // May 5, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Re: Midcon; wrote 9 minutes ago –
Excellent point about outsourcing military and security functions.
And, yeah… prayer ain’t gonna cut it; God helps those who help themselves.
As for the government “helping” us…
(*SIGH*) (*ROLLING MY EYES*)
You know the common police mantra “To Protect and Serve?” How many of you are aware that as a matter of law individual Americans have no “right” to police protection – even if a cop is within shouting distance.
I don’t usually cite Bill O’Reilly as an authoritative sources, but one belief he often states which I agree with 100% is that when push comes to shove, we as individuals largely can depend only our own resources if and when the $hit hits the fan.
BILL
31 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 1:21 pm
barker13
11:35 AMRe: Ottovbvs; 8:08 AM –
“Krugman and Summers forecast this was going to happen. They were writing Editorials about it in The Economist nearly three years ago!”
I notice you didn’t provide any links…
….Krugman in the NYT and Summers in the Financial Times were forecasting this from 2006 onwards. The Economist regularly had opeds up from about the same time. You clearly don’t read any of these publications. You should. And this ignores Schiller (he of the index) and Dr Doom who were regularly publishing opeds on the topic.
….When it comes to the duration of the recession spare us the paras of double talk about the meaning of life, how America has changed forever, we’re becoming socialists, et al……I take it this is cover for the fact you accept the recession will not last into 2011….Glad we got that out of the way.
32 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 1:26 pm
sinz54
8:50 AM
“So we’re back to “Tax and Spend” government. You’re right, I think that stinks.”
…..It obviously escaped your notice that we’ve doubled the national debt over the last eight years of Republican governance
“And we’ll reverse it as soon as the pendulum swings back our way. It may take a while. But it will.”
……The pendulum will swing back ultimately but it could take a long time….and universal healthcare is not going to be reversed anymore than SS or Medicare were.
33 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 1:39 pm
sinz54
10:50 AMRLHotchkiss: “It’s a myth that middle-class incomes have stagnated. All you have to look at is how their *consumption* has increased. The sizes of homes has increased, and nearly all homes today have climate control. Some of the most popular vehicles are expensive Ford F-150 trucks and Ford Explorer SUVs.”
……Of all the pieces of bizarre reasoning to explain away the decline in real incomes that has taken place for 80% of the country since the end of the seventies this is one of the most extraordinary but I knew it was only a matter of time before Sinz trotted it out. Living standards are a relative concept. We all drive more efficient cars than we did 40 years ago, dentistry is less painful, more homes have hot tubs, but so does everyone else from China to Germany.
34 barker13 // May 5, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Re: Midcon; wrote 52 minutes ago
“Plenty of people see the decline…”
But too many don’t. Too many think that we as a nation will always recover… always emerge from any crisis stronger than ever before.
LBJ to Nixon to Ford to Carter… decline.
Then… Reagan. Wooh-Eee!!! Fortunes reversed! “USA! USA! USA!” “We’re Number One!”
But look at what Reagan had to work with! American was still a mighty industrial nation! The “Greatest Generation” were still active movers and shakers. If you were between 45-55 in 1985, at the top of your game professionally and personally when averaging everything out including health and wealth, that meant you had been raised and had grown to adulthood under optimum “Americana” conditions.
While I’m hopeful that today’s veterans will over the coming decades become America’s movers and shakers, they exist in nowhere near the numbers of Americans who became adults as active participants in WW-2.
The toughness… the competence… the willingness to sacrifice… 2009 ain’t 1981 and it certainly ain’t either the Ike years or the JFK years.
Does anyone see another Reagan on the horizon?
Does anyone see our industrial base being rebuilt?
Anyone betting on China collapsing – and if so, collapsing in such a way as to result in more good rather than more harm being done to us and our interests?
Anyway… again I freely admit I’m rambling and just typing disconnected thoughts off the top of my head… but these thoughts come from knowledge. Our debt is real. Our unfunded liabilities are real. Before too long you’ll see that inflation – stagflation – is real. As we continue to to “drill, baby, drill” and not to increase our refinery capacity and not to build nuclear power plants to supply our ever growing energy demands… you’ll find out that supply vs. demand is a REAL phenomenon and how it effects costs and ultimately lifestyles.
Anyway… enough ranting… I’m making myself nauseous.
BILL
35 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 1:53 pm
RLHotchkiss
9:50 AM”Here is the central problem with Frum’s enterprise.”
……Basically you’re right. What Sinz, Barker, Franco and even Frum apparently don’t get is that the political center is not fixed and immutable. It moves around dependin on a number of factors. Thatcher in Britain and Reagan in the US moved the center rightwards in the 80’s. This process continued in the US until 2004 at which point the wheels started to come off the cart. There’s actually an argument to be made it was really coming to an end by 2000 and only lasted as long as it did because of 9/11. Since 2004 as all kinds of chickens have come home to roost the country has started to shift leftward. Obama is both riding and pushing this wave and by the end of his presidency which is almost certainly going to last eight years the political center of gravity will have shifted substantially leftward both economically and socially. Once there it will be a long time if ever before it moves right again…at the end of the day American society as created by FDR, Truman and Johnson is largely intact.
36 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 2:00 pm
barker13
wrote 11 minutes ago
“Anyway… enough ranting”
…..Alas you are….the US is going into a period of relative decline….it was inevitable with the rise of China, Brazil, and India…We’re still going to be the pre-eminent country for a long time but increasingly we will become primus inter pares (first among equals). In a multi polar world interdependence will become steadily greater. Obama and the Democrats basically see this. The GOP is in denial about it.
37 barker13 // May 5, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Re: Ottovbvs; wrote 21 minutes ago –
You’re STILL not providing links.
(*SNORT*) (*SNICKER*)
Anyway… wow… they were predicting doom in 2006…
(*SNORT*)
Ott. I got over my infatuation with the Economist back in the ’80’s. I’m a WSJ, FT, IBD kinda guy… as far as magazines go I’m more one for professional journals and academic periodicals.
(*SMILE*)
“…you accept the recession will not last into 2011…”
It might. What I’m saying is that even when we get “out” of recession in a technical sense (re: growth) we’ll be talking more about playing with numbers and stats than an actual recovery in the sense of returning to the boom-boom years of the earlier part of this decade, of the ’90’s of the ’80’s… in other words, what I tried to explain to you in earlier posts.
What I’m saying is that we’re in a long term decline as a nation. They’ll be good times as well as bad times, but I just don’t see this nation EVER surpassing the (however much illusionary, built upon unsustainable debt and unsustainable incomes for so many) high water mark (if that’s what you wanna call it) when such a high percentage of middle class folks were living the lives of upper middle class folks and upper middle class folks were living the lives of rich folks… all “financed” by (as we now understand) unsustainable (in fact, as it turned out, imaginary) pay packages and home equity.
We’ve largely squandered the wealth it took our ancestors a century and a half to create.
Setting aside the 1880’s thru WW-2, we’ve definitely squandered much of the wealth created by those who built modern “Superpower” America between 1945-65 and then 1982-2001.
We ran out of capital year ago… now we’re running out of credit.
BILL
38 barker13 // May 5, 2009 at 2:06 pm
One last comment (for now…)
Assuming Ott remains silent on the issue of defending freedom of expression here at NM and as long as Sinz won’t touch the issue with a ten foot poll and most other regulars seem unwilling to defend free speech here at NewMajority I take that as a symptom… an acknowledgement really… that the America I knew and respected and the Americans I respect are both a dying breed.
The refusal to stand up for what’s right… that’s a sign of societal decline.
BILL
39 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 2:15 pm
barker13
wrote 5 minutes ago
…..Barker….I stand 100% behind the 1st Amendment….Anyone should be able to say whatever he wants…I’m totally opposed to PC speech although I do think people ought to have good manners….David’s started a blog which I like as you clearly do…so he’s got to live with the consequences….NO POSTS SHOULD BE DELETED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES…Can I say it more clearly
40 ottovbvs // May 5, 2009 at 2:19 pm
barker13
wrote 15 minutes agoRe: Ottovbvs; wrote 21 minutes ago –
I got over my infatuation with the Economist back in the ’80’s. I’m a WSJ, FT, IBD kinda guy…
…..That figures….I’ve been reading the Economist since the late fifties and it’s as good as it ever was….I also have stock in Pearson so do what you can.
41 midcon // May 5, 2009 at 3:37 pm
barker (Bill) (*GRIN SHRUG) is correct. Free speech is a founding, governing, enshrined right in America. Although this is probably blasphemy to some – it is more important than the 2nd Amendment.
That said, this is a private site and can establish its own founding and governing principles which it has done in it Terms of Service, Use Agreement, and Comment Policy.
To quote from the New Majority Comment Policy While we do not censor comments based on political or ideological point of view, comments that are abusive, engage in personal attacks, contain racist, sexist, homophobic or other slurs, express hatred, are off-topic, use excessive foul language, or include any other type of ad hominem attacks (including comments that celebrate the death or illness of any person, public figure or otherwise) will be subject to removal.
Any posts which violate that policy can and should be removed. In the absence of such a violation the post must be allowed to stand.
David you should understand that this may be the last refuge of many of us who were shouted out of the GOP and cannot bring ourselves to cross the aisle. Without this, we have no place to be and be heard. Your Comment Policy is sufficient, we ask only that your staff adhere to it just as we must.
42 sinz54 // May 5, 2009 at 5:23 pm
barker13:
First, let me apologize for not seeing your posts on free speech, and “taking a stand,” sooner. I just got back home from my thrice-weekly hemodialysis session (Tue-Thur-Sat), where I do not yet have Internet connectivity.
Now: I agree with you that the ONLY reason to remove a post is if it’s abusive or threatening toward anyone, whether they’re here or not here. Despite what the Supreme Court just ruled, I believe that even profanity has to be taken in context, e.g., “The situation in Pakistan is turning to s**t.”
And WHEN any post must be removed, New Majority should email the poster and explain WHY the post was removed, using constructive criticism.
I’ve had one or two of my own posts removed, and I was never told why. So how can I know what I should do differently next time?
43 krove // May 5, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Barking.
I have had a fair number of posts removed without any reason given. Any criticism of some authors however mild usually results in a post being removed.
It has got better I feel lately. I do understand the reason for it however. It’s a close call as unbridled freedoms also bring responsibility. I admit sometimes I have gone overboard when Lianne posts absolute BS.
The site should be grown up enough to take criticism. Authors too should accept that they will be challenged on what they write, that is only fair as they have a bully pulpit.
I’m not sure where the response to commenter’s from authors went. That was a healthy thing in my opinion.
So I would rather err on the side of freedom of speech knowing that sometimes people will go over the top in arguments and make the site a free for all, which serves no one any good.
Regards Karen
44 barker13 // May 5, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Re: Sinz54; 5:23 PM –
(*NOD*) Understood.
Apologies for being pushy.
Re: Krove; wrote 8 minutes ago –
(*THUMBS UP*)
BILL (The Barkmeister!) (The Meisterbarker…???)
45 lukematthews // May 17, 2009 at 9:37 am
I thought it especially hilarious that standing by his side is his own pet tax cheat Secretary Geitner. Seems he came in handy after all. Since he knew how to cheat he could figure out ways to catch the other cheats.
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