RSS Feed MenuA cynical French friend suggests that I overlooked the likeliest motive for David Cameron’s flattering speech in Ankara:
British enthusiasm for Turkish entry into the EU is not a serious proposal, but a cunning wrecking mechanism.
Turkey will never be admitted to the EU, for at least 3 reasons:
1) Germany will not accept being demoted to the second-biggest block of delegates in the EU Parliament;
2) France and the poorer Central European countries will not accept ultra-low-wage competition from Turkish migrant workers;
3) Security services across the continent will not accept the risk of millions of Middle Eastern travelers crossing borders into Europe visa-free.
So why advocate what’s never going to happen? Because it offers a mode by which a Euroskeptic Conservative like Cameron can represent himself as ultra-pro-Europe to his LibDem coalition partners in Westminster and Britain’s Europhile media.
Sir Humphrey Appleby explained it all 25 years ago.
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 10:36 am
David,
Is it just me or does Israel have a relationship with Turkey reminiscent of spousal abuse?
Turkey continues to smack Israel unjustly and Israel goes to the corner and keeps thinking, this isn’t who I married…he’ll change, he’ll change.
Adam T. Glass
Watusie // Jul 29, 2010 at 10:49 am
Given that Cameron has said some harsh things about Israel’s actions in Gaza, I’m sure that he will henceforth get nothing but abuse from FrumForum. It will be the Sarkozy treatment for him – every opportunity to be rude about him will be seized upon.
Let me point out the absolutely blinking obvious: there are some EU members that want a broad and shallow union; there are some who want a smaller and deeper union. Everyone in Britain is in the first camp – along with the Northern European countries. In light of this, Cameron’s position is perfectly valid.
ZombieTory // Jul 29, 2010 at 10:55 am
David:
1) Politicians are duplicitous;
2) Cameron is a politician.
Nobody honestly believes that Turkey will ever be permitted membership in the EU. However, Cameron was in Turkey, so as a competent public speaker he told the audience what they wanted to hear. Talk is cheap, don’t get so worked up over it.
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:08 am
Watusie
I understand your point on Cameron, but there is an all of Europe Jew Hating going on by bashing Israel.
Allow me to point out recently 2 cases where British Passports were forged and the British reaction:
America catches a ring of Russian Spies recently, some with fake UK Passports, and there is no question they are spies and Russian. – reaction by UK: zero
In Dubai a Hamas leader is assassinated with zero proof Mossad is blamed immediately, mind you no proof that this is Mossad involved, could be rivals to Hamas or any number of other groups. But all blame laid at feet of Israel, and several had UK forged passports. Now there was zero proof that this was connected to Israel, but how did Britain react to this. – reaction by UK: Excoriating Israel diplomats and Israel as a whole and taking great umbrage at these forged passports.
This is called a comparison and a fair one at that.
Europe’s final Export to America is Jew Hating.
Watusie // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:19 am
adamtglass, your comment is moronic. Anna Chapman had a British passport because she was married to a Brit. And you say that is equivalent to the Brits concluding via their own official inquiry that Israel forged TWELVE British passports in order to carry out an assassination. What kind of misery do you think Britain’s travellers are in for if their government allows the ideal to perpetuate that everyone with British papers is a potential Mossad agent?
One can be critical of Israel without being anti-Semitic. In fact, I manage to accomplish this feat every day.
sinz54 // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:21 am
ZombieTory: Cameron was in Turkey, so as a competent public speaker he told the audience what they wanted to hear. Talk is cheap, don’t get so worked up over it.
Yep.
Just like when candidate Obama told a progressive audience in 2008 that “I believe in a single-payer system.”
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:29 am
Watusie
I really hope you don’t think I was implying or saying that you are anti-Semitic, as that was not my intention at all. And if you think I was, then I would like to apologize.
I don’t think my point is moronic but you are more than welcome to think that.
As for the word anti-Semitism, I have tried a concerted effort to stop using it.
I find it a bit to antiseptic and intellectualized and then people debate its exact meaning.
That is why I use the blunt term Jew Hating or Jew Bashing.
Watusie, I don’t agree with you but that does not impact me thinking you are a respectable person who enjoys intelligent discussion and debate.
I hope that you don’t think me moronic due to your thinking my statement was moronic.
Adam
Watusie // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:35 am
Criticism of Israel is not Jew Hating or Jew Bashing. Britain being furious that Mossad has put the lives of British businessmen and tourists in the Middle East in jeopardy by calling their credentials into question is not Jew Hating or Jew Bashing. Saying that the forging of TWELVE British passports for the purpose of carrying out an assassination is not remotely the same as Anna Chapman having a British passport via marriage is not Jew Hating or Jew Bashing.
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:41 am
Wait, when did I say that it was?
Certain criticisms are Jew Hating, but in general criticizing Israel is just that, criticizing Israel.
If I thought differently, I would be under the illusion that every Israeli was a Jew Hater as all Israeli criticize the state.
Slow down Watusie…you are missing something I’m saying or I am not conveying it in the best way, but I reiterate I do not believe criticizing Israel equates Jew Hating.
I was speaking of anti-Semitism and how the word should be done away with as it is to academic and somewhat humanizes the very act.
Hence I prefer the black and white clear and concise term Jew Hating.
Just as I call ridiculous comments about Palestinians as Palestinian Hating and it is unjustified.
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:44 am
Again that British investigation was done pretty quickly then, as they denounced Israel immediately upon Dubai’s accusations.
What is the proof that this was a Mossad operation, please please tell me.
We have proof that there was a Russian operation.
Mossad in Dubai is an assumption due to the lack of actual tangible evidence.
That is why the story has gone the way of Kaiser Sosee (Usual Suspects((spelling may be incorrect)))
Watusie // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:48 am
adamtglass, you seriously need to grow up.
Britain has expelled Mossad’s most senior official in London after concluding there was compelling evidence that UK passports used by a hit squad in Dubai were cloned by Israel. The Independent has learnt that the documents were cloned at Ben Gurion airport, and officials then made follow-up calls to check surreptitiously that the travel plans of those whose identities had been stolen would not interfere with the assassination.
“Such misuse of British passports is intolerable,” the Foreign Secretary David Miliband told Parliament. “The fact that this was done by a country which is a friend, with significant diplomatic, cultural, business and personal ties to the UK, only adds insult to injury.” In an unusual move last night, the Foreign Office also updated its travel advice for Israel, warning would-be visitors of the perils of passport cloning. “We recommend that you only hand your passport over to third parties including Israeli officials when absolutely necessary,” the travel bulletin said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/clone-wars-mossads-london-chief-expelled-over-forged-passports-1926147.html
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:56 am
Watusie
If you want to come off as the slightest bit mature don’t call people’s statement moronic, rather challenge them on their points. Also telling someone to grow up, while using a username is clearly the act of a grown-up.
Oh one last thing on the Russian Brit passport, forgery is a crime but lying and misrepresentations to acquire a British Passport is lawful?
Will you respond with more insults or engage in actual dialectics?
Adam
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 11:58 am
Also Watusie have you always taken the British law enforcement at their words?
Were you doing that also during the crimes they committed against innocents they accused of IRA membership and collaboration?
Just wondering?
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:01 pm
Watusie
Why are several of your comments missing? They were the ones where you attacked me speciously, and now there are only my replies but your original off-base claims are gone?
Is this how you debate? With obfuscation?
I really should grow up, because apparently we no longer play fair.
Watusie // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:03 pm
adamtglass, the Mossad forgeries are as “proven” as anything in the world of spycraft are ever going to be and you pretending otherwise demonstrates the pointlessness of both your commentary and me thinking that it might be productive to correct your nonsense. Hopefully, though, any otherwise-not-terribly-clued in third parties reading these comments will now see just how ridiculous your false equivalences are.
Watusie // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:07 pm
adamtglass Why are several of your comments missing? They were the ones where you attacked me speciously, and now there are only my replies but your original off-base claims are gone?
Is this how you debate? With obfuscation? I really should grow up, because apparently we no longer play fair.
I have absolutely no f’ing idea what you are talking about.
abk1985 // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:08 pm
What people don’t seem to understand is that there’s justifiable criticism and then there’s criticism designed to placate people’s grievances.
Take the flotilla incident. Myself, I don’t care that Israel used force. However, from a PR POV it was clearly extremely STUPID. It’s not criticism to make that observation. I am not sure, but I would guess that quite a few Turks and quite a few Muslims (I’m not even talking about anyone else) were outraged by the flotilla incident. Therefore, Cameron’s comments, to me, represent an attempt to address Turkish public opinion, and probably at Erdogan’s request, in order to give Erdogan cover to do something else that Cameron wants him to do.
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Watusie
In a debate when one says something isn’t true they provide evidence for that. When asked why one thing is fine but another is not, a person should answer that.
But you just seem to be insulting me rather than say why a Russian lying to get a Passport, which is illegal, is OK and deserves no comment?
Please continue your barrage of mature and erudite insults that my 3 year old niece thinks are weak.
abk1985 I agree there is justifiable criticism and then there is not. When you hold only one country to a set of standards that is not legit. When you excoriate one group for something and are silent when the same is done by others that is not legit.
I criticize Israel plenty and I criticize the Palestinians. I am not under the impression though that they are a single entity acting in lock step.
Watusie…have at me…
abk1985 // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:32 pm
adamtglass, what I was trying to say is that I personally think calling Gaza a “prison camp” is an irresponsible exaggeration and furthermore is bound to inflame Jewish passions because of the World War Two experience. In that sense, it was an unjustifiable thing to say.
On the other hand, I think Cameron was attempting to address primarily Turks, who are still fuming over the flotilla incident, and who, as Muslims, are going to tend to identify with the Gazans.
I just don’t believe exaggeration gets anywhere in rational discourse. But sometimes it’s done to placate people’s feelings. That’s what I think was going on in this case.
And, BTW, just because I don’t think it’s appropriate to call Gaza a “prison camp” or to call the West Bank a “Bantustan” doesn’t mean that there aren’t real problems in this area, problems that are compounded in the latter case by Israel’s refusal to do anything about the steady encroachment onto West Bank lands.
The excuse that any of this has to do with the Palestinian refusal to make peace is completely irrelevant. As far as I am concerned, Israel can occupy the West Bank forever — militarily. But they have no right to get in the way of the Palestinian inhabitants going about their business as they see fit, and that includes access to water and the Jordan river valley. What’s the excuse for that? There is none.
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:39 pm
abk1985
I get your point completely, especially how WWII and Nazis are referenced as examples specifically to attack the Jews of Israel.
I cannot stand the Religious zealots trying to claim all of the West Bank as part of Israel.
In this situation we have the fringes of both sides screaming the loudest.
I despise both sides revanchism.
I truly believe that a true and honest peace can be brokered.
Both sides must give.
abk, there is a fantastic book that Watusie would hate, called State Beyond the Pale written by a gentile woman on how Israel is treated by Europe and why has this occurred. I highly recommend it.
As for how this whole mess began Bennie Morris has written 1948, a well researched book without the fringes hyperbole. Morris wrote an earlier book on the unfair plight of the Palestinians so he isn’t just some shill for the Jews.
Watusie // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:39 pm
adamtglass, what part of this didn’t you get?
Anna Chapman had a British passport because she was married to a Brit. And you say that is equivalent to the Brits concluding via their own official inquiry that Israel forged TWELVE British passports in order to carry out an assassination. What kind of misery do you think Britain’s travellers are in for if their government allows the ideal to perpetuate that everyone with British papers is a potential Mossad agent?
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Watusie
She had to fill out something to get that passport, you can’t walk into an embassy and say this is my wife, her passport please.
I wonder if they asked where has she lived over the course of her life, where was she born.
I’m glad you assume that a Russian spy always answers authorities truthfully.
See your refusal to even admit the chance that a crime took place over the course of that transaction…I mean it does not fit in your all to convenient narrative.
And its fine if all Brits are now assumed that they could be Russian spies…are you seeing the failings in your genius yet?
or just working on new insults to avoid facing reality and answering questions asked.
Watusie // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:52 pm
On one side: Anna Chapman gets a passport by marrying a Brit.
On the other side: twelve British citizens pass through Ben Gurion airport and, unknown to them, Israeli agents clone their passports and then use the faked versions to carry out an assassination.
adamtglass sees these two things as exactly the same.
What more is there to say about adamtglass?
adamtglass // Jul 29, 2010 at 12:59 pm
First I never claim they are exactly the same…
One must assume Watusie has never had a debate with someone whom he disagrees with as he just repeats the same thing again and again never address a single question asked by the other side.
Watusie’s assumptions based on?:
Once again it seems all one has to do to get a UK passport is ask and marry a Brit…wow that sure sounds really easy….well since Watusie keeps saying it that must be the only thing requires.
Mossad is guilty beyond doubt for the assassination in Dubai.
A verdict the Dubai police came up with in less than 24 hours. And since they knew who it was they didn’t need to investigate further.
As we all know, Israel is the only country that has issues with Hamas.
Certainly Eqypt and Saudi Arabia love Hamas…oh they don’t..well Jordan must..they don’t
But thanks to Watusie’s crack investigating we all know it is Mossad.
interesting assumptions all based in absolute ether
oh you can also say about adamtglass that he is really really goood loooking…
Watusie // Jul 29, 2010 at 1:13 pm
What I am not used to is wasting my time in a discussion with someone who is happy to make illogical and preposterous arguments in order to deflect attention from realities he finds uncomfortable.