Comments on: Universal Coverage: A Disgrace It’s Taken So Long http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:50:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: zschultz http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long/comment-page-1#comment-68930 zschultz Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:27:35 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10529#comment-68930 barker13: I think your comment alone tells us everything we need to know about you: you're a partisan hack (not necessarily pro-Republican, but anti-Democrat) who won't consider the opposing argument because you've already made up your mind. I've noticed this in other articles as well where your condescension proves that you have no respect for intellectual honesty but rather for logical fallacies. Now if you want to actually point out flaws with this article I would be more than happy to discuss them with you. (*SHRUG*) (*SMIRK) barker13:
I think your comment alone tells us everything we need to know about you: you’re a partisan hack (not necessarily pro-Republican, but anti-Democrat) who won’t consider the opposing argument because you’ve already made up your mind. I’ve noticed this in other articles as well where your condescension proves that you have no respect for intellectual honesty but rather for logical fallacies.

Now if you want to actually point out flaws with this article I would be more than happy to discuss them with you.

(*SHRUG*) (*SMIRK)

]]> By: Universal Coverage: We Need a Better Reason than “Everybody Else Does It” http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long/comment-page-1#comment-61454 Universal Coverage: We Need a Better Reason than “Everybody Else Does It” Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:13:47 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10529#comment-61454 [...] either, but a socialist back in the days when socialist and Marxist were the same thing — tries to shame us Republicans into supporting nationalized healthcare:  Why, it’s just us, Turkey, and [...] [...] either, but a socialist back in the days when socialist and Marxist were the same thing — tries to shame us Republicans into supporting nationalized healthcare:  Why, it’s just us, Turkey, and [...]

]]> By: barker13 http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long/comment-page-1#comment-61450 barker13 Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:07:46 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10529#comment-61450 "Eugene Victor Debs is the pseudonym for a Democratic activist in the Washington D.C. area." Doesn't this alone tell us everything we need to know? (*SHRUG*) (*SMIRK*) BILL “Eugene Victor Debs is the pseudonym for a Democratic activist in the Washington D.C. area.”

Doesn’t this alone tell us everything we need to know?

(*SHRUG*) (*SMIRK*)

BILL

]]> By: balconesfault http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long/comment-page-1#comment-61372 balconesfault Mon, 24 Aug 2009 18:41:27 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10529#comment-61372 <b>What it really gets down to for most people is the cost of care. Now this is a legitimate area for government assistence. Only the government can compel doctors and insurance companies to reduce costs.</b> I fail to see where this is a legitimate role for government, except in those places where government specifically pays for health insurance or healthcare. What is your government-free solution to pre-existing conditions, or portability. Legislation requiring companies to change their business practices? That's a rather odd definition of keeping government out of it. What it really gets down to for most people is the cost of care. Now this is a legitimate area for government assistence. Only the government can compel doctors and insurance companies to reduce costs.

I fail to see where this is a legitimate role for government, except in those places where government specifically pays for health insurance or healthcare.

What is your government-free solution to pre-existing conditions, or portability. Legislation requiring companies to change their business practices? That’s a rather odd definition of keeping government out of it.

]]> By: liv&win http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long/comment-page-1#comment-61370 liv&win Mon, 24 Aug 2009 18:34:31 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10529#comment-61370 balconesfault // Aug 24, 2009 at 12:34 pm debs: The fact that our system is so fragmented is what makes it so irrational and why it lets so many people fall thru the cracks...Exactly. ???First, "so many" is a canard. We know who falls through the cracks and why. Also, what is your definition of falls through? Pre-exisiting condition? Solvable without government plan. Underwriting restrictions? Solvable without govt plan. Portability? Solvable without govt plan. We can addess the uninsured by expanding Medicaid and reforming insurance laws. Let's not make the cure worse than the cold. What it really gets down to for most people is the cost of care. Now this is a legitimate area for government assistence. Only the government can compel doctors and insurance companies to reduce costs. Let's do it. Mandate that the insurance industry provide 85 cents of benefit payments for every dollar they recieve. And let's mandate a reduction total fees recieved by providers by 15%. Let's do it. balconesfault // Aug 24, 2009 at 12:34 pm debs: The fact that our system is so fragmented is what makes it so irrational and why it lets so many people fall thru the cracks…Exactly.

???First, “so many” is a canard. We know who falls through the cracks and why. Also, what is your definition of falls through? Pre-exisiting condition? Solvable without government plan. Underwriting restrictions? Solvable without govt plan. Portability? Solvable without govt plan. We can addess the uninsured by expanding Medicaid and reforming insurance laws. Let’s not make the cure worse than the cold.

What it really gets down to for most people is the cost of care. Now this is a legitimate area for government assistence. Only the government can compel doctors and insurance companies to reduce costs. Let’s do it. Mandate that the insurance industry provide 85 cents of benefit payments for every dollar they recieve. And let’s mandate a reduction total fees recieved by providers by 15%. Let’s do it.

]]> By: liv&win http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long/comment-page-1#comment-61367 liv&win Mon, 24 Aug 2009 18:23:23 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10529#comment-61367 I believe conservatives and liberals alike should band together in an ideological consensus. Conservatives advocate limited (and presumably smaller) government and liberals decry the takeover of the economy by mega-corporations. I argue that both are correct, we should limit the size and scope of government as well as the size and scope of mega-corporations like GE. If they were natural, or designed to be natural, they would have been subject to limits on their size, scope and preimenence. Great White’s are dominant preditors, but somehow nature has limited them while at the same time maximizing diversity. I don't think the solution is either/or. I think the solution is a little of this and a little of this, that and the other thing. Right now, we have 1/2 of health care provided by public programs, and 1/2 provided by private industry. The only way one can survive is to destroy the other. It is a battle of two titans with us in the middle. Consumers need to be clear about what we want and demand that we get it without expanding government and enriching the titans of the insurance industry. debs, are you really advocating that the rich can essentially opt out? Not a good idea. I believe conservatives and liberals alike should band together in an ideological consensus. Conservatives advocate limited (and presumably smaller) government and liberals decry the takeover of the economy by mega-corporations. I argue that both are correct, we should limit the size and scope of government as well as the size and scope of mega-corporations like GE. If they were natural, or designed to be natural, they would have been subject to limits on their size, scope and preimenence. Great White’s are dominant preditors, but somehow nature has limited them while at the same time maximizing diversity.

I don’t think the solution is either/or. I think the solution is a little of this and a little of this, that and the other thing. Right now, we have 1/2 of health care provided by public programs, and 1/2 provided by private industry. The only way one can survive is to destroy the other. It is a battle of two titans with us in the middle.

Consumers need to be clear about what we want and demand that we get it without expanding government and enriching the titans of the insurance industry.

debs, are you really advocating that the rich can essentially opt out? Not a good idea.

]]> By: debs http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long/comment-page-1#comment-61353 debs Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:44:56 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10529#comment-61353 Yes, quite so. One of the points I might have made, but didn't is that in almost every universal system--Canada is the notable exception, unfortunately in that it is the one Americans are most familiar with--citizens are permitted to purchase supplemental health insurance to "top off" the basic tax supported plan they receive from either private insurers or a government administered insurers. Thus the anxiety that many conservative have--especially wealthy ones--that they would be reduced to employing leeches and shots of whiskey for anesthesia is utterly specious. As it stands, excellent health care across the board is provided in all of these countries. And the rich can buy even more if they have the means to do so in France, the UK, the Netherlands, Switzerland, et. al. Yes, quite so. One of the points I might have made, but didn’t is that in almost every universal system–Canada is the notable exception, unfortunately in that it is the one Americans are most familiar with–citizens are permitted to purchase supplemental health insurance to “top off” the basic tax supported plan they receive from either private insurers or a government administered insurers. Thus the anxiety that many conservative have–especially wealthy ones–that they would be reduced to employing leeches and shots of whiskey for anesthesia is utterly specious. As it stands, excellent health care across the board is provided in all of these countries. And the rich can buy even more if they have the means to do so in France, the UK, the Netherlands, Switzerland, et. al.

]]> By: balconesfault http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long/comment-page-1#comment-61351 balconesfault Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:34:48 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10529#comment-61351 debs: <b>The fact that our system is so fragmented is what makes it so irrational and why it lets so many people fall thru the cracks.</b> Exactly. As I've pointed out, the US currently spends more per capita in federal spending on medicare and medicaid, than the British Government spends per capita to run the NHS. I still have not received an answer as to why the US could not run an NHS that provides the same level of coverage as the Brits do, at the same level of spending we currently that we currently use to run Medicare and Medicaid ... and then have a secondary market covered by private insurers and providers to cover benefits greater than the NHS can afford. debs: The fact that our system is so fragmented is what makes it so irrational and why it lets so many people fall thru the cracks.

Exactly. As I’ve pointed out, the US currently spends more per capita in federal spending on medicare and medicaid, than the British Government spends per capita to run the NHS.

I still have not received an answer as to why the US could not run an NHS that provides the same level of coverage as the Brits do, at the same level of spending we currently that we currently use to run Medicare and Medicaid … and then have a secondary market covered by private insurers and providers to cover benefits greater than the NHS can afford.

]]> By: balconesfault http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long/comment-page-1#comment-61347 balconesfault Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:08:19 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10529#comment-61347 Sinz wrote: <b>My ancestors came to America early in the 20th century, to get away from Europe.</b> And my grandfather left Slovenia early in the 20th century because life under the Hapsburgs wasn't particularly safe for someone who was an atheist and a socialist. In America, he still needed to fear the mobs and corporate henchmen for his beliefs, but there was less chance of him being shot for them by the federal government. Sinz wrote: My ancestors came to America early in the 20th century, to get away from Europe.

And my grandfather left Slovenia early in the 20th century because life under the Hapsburgs wasn’t particularly safe for someone who was an atheist and a socialist. In America, he still needed to fear the mobs and corporate henchmen for his beliefs, but there was less chance of him being shot for them by the federal government.

]]> By: debs http://www.frumforum.com/universal-coverage-a-disgrace-its-taken-so-long/comment-page-1#comment-61330 debs Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:34:36 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10529#comment-61330 Here's the story I referenced above. That you are not shamed by not only the public policy of the European countries--with the support of their conservative parties--but by those of Canada, Taiwan, and Japan too, to name a few others does not reflect poorly on them, but, rather, on you. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/aug/21/healthcare-provision-us-uk Here’s the story I referenced above. That you are not shamed by not only the public policy of the European countries–with the support of their conservative parties–but by those of Canada, Taiwan, and Japan too, to name a few others does not reflect poorly on them, but, rather, on you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/aug/21/healthcare-provision-us-uk

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