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	<title>Comments on: Universal Care: Not Now, Not Later</title>
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	<link>http://www.frumforum.com/universal-care-not-now-not-later</link>
	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: Two Health Care Plans Republicans Should Support - Hip Hop Republican</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/universal-care-not-now-not-later/comment-page-1#comment-62959</link>
		<dc:creator>Two Health Care Plans Republicans Should Support - Hip Hop Republican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10522#comment-62959</guid>
		<description>[...] Some even go a step further and claim as blogger John Vecchione writes in a recent post, that there is no health care crisis and when nations make universal health care a goal it also makes conservative parties [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Some even go a step further and claim as blogger John Vecchione writes in a recent post, that there is no health care crisis and when nations make universal health care a goal it also makes conservative parties [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Progressive Republican</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/universal-care-not-now-not-later/comment-page-1#comment-61368</link>
		<dc:creator>The Progressive Republican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 18:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10522#comment-61368</guid>
		<description>[...] Some even go a step further and claim as blogger John Vecchione writes in a recent post, that there is no health care crisis and when nations make universal health care a goal it also makes conservative parties [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Some even go a step further and claim as blogger John Vecchione writes in a recent post, that there is no health care crisis and when nations make universal health care a goal it also makes conservative parties [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Should Republicans Endorse Universal Health Coverage?</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/universal-care-not-now-not-later/comment-page-1#comment-61357</link>
		<dc:creator>Should Republicans Endorse Universal Health Coverage?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10522#comment-61357</guid>
		<description>[...] Vecchione, Universal Care: Not Now, Not Later The answer must be no. We have only to look at Europe, or North of the Border, or to Medicare and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Vecchione, Universal Care: Not Now, Not Later The answer must be no. We have only to look at Europe, or North of the Border, or to Medicare and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/universal-care-not-now-not-later/comment-page-1#comment-61321</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10522#comment-61321</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;The congressional Republicans should continue to play rope-a-dope: Keep saying nice things about working for a bipartisan bill, playing on Obama’s desperate hopes for some Republican cover; and then when pinned by the Dems on a specific proposal, dance away.&lt;/b&gt;

Country First!

Seriously, this tactic wins in boxing if you have a knockout punch in your back pocket to unleash after your opponent has gotten tired from chasing you around the ring.  If at the end of the bout, it looks like your opponent has consistently been the aggressor, and you&#039;ve constantly been the one stalling, you lose on points as judges award points for the aggressiveness.

That&#039;s the danger of your tactic.  The Dems are starting to get out there declaring that the Republicans are not interested in ANY meaningful reform.  If Baucus does so, pronouncing his &quot;gang of six&quot; to be defunct in the face of active sabotage by the Republican members of the gang, it&#039;s going to suddenly be game over for the Repubs.  The only tactic will end up being a filibuster of whatever comes to the Senate floor, no matter what it looks like, for fear that reconciliation will end up sticking in a public option.

At that point, either Dems and Repubs both hold unity in a cloture vote, and a bill gets passed without any input from the Repubs ... or some Repubs cross over, giving the Repubs legit call to have a voice in the reconciliation process, and a few of those Repubs end up voting for the final bill ... or some Dems cross over on the cloture vote, blocking the legislation until 2011.

Scenario 1 - if the public option becomes as popular as the Republicans and insurance companies fear it will, then Dems get all the credit, and probably lock in major gains for a few cycles.  Scenario 2 - some Repubs cross over ... and we have Sinz&#039;s fear of splitting the party turned to reality.  Scenario 3 - some Dems cross over, bill dies in filibuster, and the message goes out that there will never be a Republican vote for healthcare reform, and the only way to accomplish it is to elect more Dems.

In other words, the strategy at this stage works only if the boxer Reid forgot everything he knew about boxing scoring ... or if the Repubs have some counterpunch coming that makes them look like the aggressor, and knocks out any Dem proposal.   Given that the latter is looking increasingly slim, given the rhetoric here, you&#039;re down to depending on Harry Reid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>The congressional Republicans should continue to play rope-a-dope: Keep saying nice things about working for a bipartisan bill, playing on Obama’s desperate hopes for some Republican cover; and then when pinned by the Dems on a specific proposal, dance away.</b></p>
<p>Country First!</p>
<p>Seriously, this tactic wins in boxing if you have a knockout punch in your back pocket to unleash after your opponent has gotten tired from chasing you around the ring.  If at the end of the bout, it looks like your opponent has consistently been the aggressor, and you&#8217;ve constantly been the one stalling, you lose on points as judges award points for the aggressiveness.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the danger of your tactic.  The Dems are starting to get out there declaring that the Republicans are not interested in ANY meaningful reform.  If Baucus does so, pronouncing his &#8220;gang of six&#8221; to be defunct in the face of active sabotage by the Republican members of the gang, it&#8217;s going to suddenly be game over for the Repubs.  The only tactic will end up being a filibuster of whatever comes to the Senate floor, no matter what it looks like, for fear that reconciliation will end up sticking in a public option.</p>
<p>At that point, either Dems and Repubs both hold unity in a cloture vote, and a bill gets passed without any input from the Repubs &#8230; or some Repubs cross over, giving the Repubs legit call to have a voice in the reconciliation process, and a few of those Repubs end up voting for the final bill &#8230; or some Dems cross over on the cloture vote, blocking the legislation until 2011.</p>
<p>Scenario 1 &#8211; if the public option becomes as popular as the Republicans and insurance companies fear it will, then Dems get all the credit, and probably lock in major gains for a few cycles.  Scenario 2 &#8211; some Repubs cross over &#8230; and we have Sinz&#8217;s fear of splitting the party turned to reality.  Scenario 3 &#8211; some Dems cross over, bill dies in filibuster, and the message goes out that there will never be a Republican vote for healthcare reform, and the only way to accomplish it is to elect more Dems.</p>
<p>In other words, the strategy at this stage works only if the boxer Reid forgot everything he knew about boxing scoring &#8230; or if the Repubs have some counterpunch coming that makes them look like the aggressor, and knocks out any Dem proposal.   Given that the latter is looking increasingly slim, given the rhetoric here, you&#8217;re down to depending on Harry Reid.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/universal-care-not-now-not-later/comment-page-1#comment-61318</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10522#comment-61318</guid>
		<description>John Veccione:  &quot;If a body of conservatives adopted universal health insurance as a goal right now it would split the opposition to Obamacare....and allow for the co-option of the opposition just as they are registering success. Obamacare as it now stands is an issue that divides the Democrats and unites Republicans.  No proposal that changes this formula ought to be suggested by the Right.&quot;

EXACTLY RIGHT!!!
That&#039;s what I&#039;ve been saying for weeks now!

The GOP is on a roll, as the Dems continue to struggle and the public grows increasingly disenchanted with them.  Let it ride, as they say in roulette.

The congressional Republicans should continue to play rope-a-dope:  Keep saying nice things about working for a bipartisan bill, playing on Obama&#039;s desperate hopes for some Republican cover; and then when pinned by the Dems on a specific proposal, dance away.  Approach the Dems and then dance away. Again and again.  Stall and stall and stall.

&quot;Never interfere with the enemy when he is in the process of destroying himself.&quot;
     -- Napoleon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Veccione:  &#8220;If a body of conservatives adopted universal health insurance as a goal right now it would split the opposition to Obamacare&#8230;.and allow for the co-option of the opposition just as they are registering success. Obamacare as it now stands is an issue that divides the Democrats and unites Republicans.  No proposal that changes this formula ought to be suggested by the Right.&#8221;</p>
<p>EXACTLY RIGHT!!!<br />
That&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve been saying for weeks now!</p>
<p>The GOP is on a roll, as the Dems continue to struggle and the public grows increasingly disenchanted with them.  Let it ride, as they say in roulette.</p>
<p>The congressional Republicans should continue to play rope-a-dope:  Keep saying nice things about working for a bipartisan bill, playing on Obama&#8217;s desperate hopes for some Republican cover; and then when pinned by the Dems on a specific proposal, dance away.  Approach the Dems and then dance away. Again and again.  Stall and stall and stall.</p>
<p>&#8220;Never interfere with the enemy when he is in the process of destroying himself.&#8221;<br />
     &#8212; Napoleon</p>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/universal-care-not-now-not-later/comment-page-1#comment-61311</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10522#comment-61311</guid>
		<description>.......Vecchione bottom line.......we&#039;re opposed to it on ideological grounds and btw it might help the other party.......Republican reality check........well at least he&#039;s honest which is more than can be said for most of the other conservatives who are in one way or another opposed to major reform and advance a stewpot of largely specious rationalisations to justify their position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;&#8230;.Vecchione bottom line&#8230;&#8230;.we&#8217;re opposed to it on ideological grounds and btw it might help the other party&#8230;&#8230;.Republican reality check&#8230;&#8230;..well at least he&#8217;s honest which is more than can be said for most of the other conservatives who are in one way or another opposed to major reform and advance a stewpot of largely specious rationalisations to justify their position.</p>
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		<title>By: RLHotchkiss</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/universal-care-not-now-not-later/comment-page-1#comment-61294</link>
		<dc:creator>RLHotchkiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 02:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=10522#comment-61294</guid>
		<description>Mr.  Vecchione could not possibly be more wrong in his analysis of the political effects of universal health care.  Europe is more conservative than anytime since the 40&#039;s.    Much of this transformation can be directly attributed to universal health care.   

With universal health care Europeans have been able to depend on themselves instead of their unions.   Britain has a higher percentage of its population self employed than the United States.   Britain has moved fairly consistently to right sense the establishment of universal health care.   British government is far more privatized than the United States.  The Labour government recently tried a partial privatization scheme of the last major government run industry, the postal service.  And it will almost certainly be privatized   under the Tory government, something only dreamed of by Reagan.

The bus services are privatized and unsubsidized.  Drivers tests are given by private companies.   And, it goes on and on.

Health care is a middle class issue because a major health incident leads to financial ruin.  Health insurance in the United States has ceased to provide its most basic function, to prevent health emergencies leading to financial ruin.  Health care is the golden calling card of unions.  Many would be republican families, entrepreneurs and small business owners are tied to the Democratic party because they must keep one family member in unionized job, such as teaching for health benefits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr.  Vecchione could not possibly be more wrong in his analysis of the political effects of universal health care.  Europe is more conservative than anytime since the 40&#8217;s.    Much of this transformation can be directly attributed to universal health care.   </p>
<p>With universal health care Europeans have been able to depend on themselves instead of their unions.   Britain has a higher percentage of its population self employed than the United States.   Britain has moved fairly consistently to right sense the establishment of universal health care.   British government is far more privatized than the United States.  The Labour government recently tried a partial privatization scheme of the last major government run industry, the postal service.  And it will almost certainly be privatized   under the Tory government, something only dreamed of by Reagan.</p>
<p>The bus services are privatized and unsubsidized.  Drivers tests are given by private companies.   And, it goes on and on.</p>
<p>Health care is a middle class issue because a major health incident leads to financial ruin.  Health insurance in the United States has ceased to provide its most basic function, to prevent health emergencies leading to financial ruin.  Health care is the golden calling card of unions.  Many would be republican families, entrepreneurs and small business owners are tied to the Democratic party because they must keep one family member in unionized job, such as teaching for health benefits.</p>
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