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	<title>Comments on: The Not So Big Conservative Base</title>
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	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: The fight for the soul of conservatism &#124; OrthoCuban</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-not-so-big-conservative-base/comment-page-3#comment-76398</link>
		<dc:creator>The fight for the soul of conservatism &#124; OrthoCuban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 06:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=17421#comment-76398</guid>
		<description>[...] me give you quotes from an additional article found on the FrumForum. It is titled The Not So Big Conservative [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] me give you quotes from an additional article found on the FrumForum. It is titled The Not So Big Conservative [...]</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-not-so-big-conservative-base/comment-page-3#comment-76186</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=17421#comment-76186</guid>
		<description>Sinz:  &lt;b&gt;It was “meddling” for the GOP leadership to anoint Scozzafava, rather than having a primary and leaving the choice to the voters.&lt;/b&gt;

Sinz - knowing how much a primary costs, and knowing that local jurisdictions virtually never foot the bill for a primary outside of the regular election cycle - do you think the Republican Party should have stepped up and footed the bill for a mid-term primary in NY-23, rather than leaving it to local party officials to select a candidate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sinz:  It was “meddling” for the GOP leadership to anoint Scozzafava, rather than having a primary and leaving the choice to the voters.</p>
<p>Sinz &#8211; knowing how much a primary costs, and knowing that local jurisdictions virtually never foot the bill for a primary outside of the regular election cycle &#8211; do you think the Republican Party should have stepped up and footed the bill for a mid-term primary in NY-23, rather than leaving it to local party officials to select a candidate?</p>
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		<title>By: jakester</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-not-so-big-conservative-base/comment-page-3#comment-76160</link>
		<dc:creator>jakester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=17421#comment-76160</guid>
		<description>sinz54
I live there, and the GOP is weak in NY and tends to be reasonable and intelligent, not some Beck Limbo knuckledragger outfit. If Scozzo had been left alone she would have won and there was no time for a primary there. But if there was she would  or a similiar person would have won, not some talk radio composite of modern non thinking conservatism. Why don&#039;t you try to think instead of giving a summation from Hannity&#039;s America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sinz54<br />
I live there, and the GOP is weak in NY and tends to be reasonable and intelligent, not some Beck Limbo knuckledragger outfit. If Scozzo had been left alone she would have won and there was no time for a primary there. But if there was she would  or a similiar person would have won, not some talk radio composite of modern non thinking conservatism. Why don&#8217;t you try to think instead of giving a summation from Hannity&#8217;s America.</p>
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		<title>By: jakester</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-not-so-big-conservative-base/comment-page-3#comment-76159</link>
		<dc:creator>jakester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=17421#comment-76159</guid>
		<description>franco 2
Every GOP candidate, sans Ron Paul,  in 2008 said if he had t,o he would do what Bush did in 2003 and go to war in Iraq even while  knowing what we know today. That speaks volume about the intellectual integrity of the conservatives/ People are not wimpos but they know what cheap adverturism is, a lot of dead people and a trillion dollars dropped yet not one of them even Huckabee, the Baptist Pro lifer know nothing, would have done different in 2003. Besides, the cons addiction to conservative Xtianity is plain hypocritical and ultimately alienates the enlightened voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>franco 2<br />
Every GOP candidate, sans Ron Paul,  in 2008 said if he had t,o he would do what Bush did in 2003 and go to war in Iraq even while  knowing what we know today. That speaks volume about the intellectual integrity of the conservatives/ People are not wimpos but they know what cheap adverturism is, a lot of dead people and a trillion dollars dropped yet not one of them even Huckabee, the Baptist Pro lifer know nothing, would have done different in 2003. Besides, the cons addiction to conservative Xtianity is plain hypocritical and ultimately alienates the enlightened voters.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-not-so-big-conservative-base/comment-page-3#comment-76151</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 01:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=17421#comment-76151</guid>
		<description>Reason60: &lt;blockquote&gt; Trouble is, both parties seem to run massive deficits in bad time, good time, and all the times in between. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
By the year 2000, the budget was balanced, the result of a bipartisan effort between a Dem President (Clinton) and a conservative Republican Congress.

But that would never have been possible, if the economy hadn&#039;t been booming.  A booming economy generated the tax receipts enabling the Government to pay its bills without borrowing.

I believe that now it is getting harder and harder for the American economy to grow robustly.  We face stiff competition from India and China; our manufacturing base is hollowed out; the Internet boom has matured and reached saturation and is unlikely to produce any more skyrocketing wealth; service jobs and gambling casinos don&#039;t produce goods of lasting value to make the country richer; our economy is highly dependent on fossil fuels, whose use must now be restricted to fight global warming.  And in such conditions, the budget cannot and should not be balanced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reason60:  Trouble is, both parties seem to run massive deficits in bad time, good time, and all the times in between.<br />
By the year 2000, the budget was balanced, the result of a bipartisan effort between a Dem President (Clinton) and a conservative Republican Congress.</p>
<p>But that would never have been possible, if the economy hadn&#8217;t been booming.  A booming economy generated the tax receipts enabling the Government to pay its bills without borrowing.</p>
<p>I believe that now it is getting harder and harder for the American economy to grow robustly.  We face stiff competition from India and China; our manufacturing base is hollowed out; the Internet boom has matured and reached saturation and is unlikely to produce any more skyrocketing wealth; service jobs and gambling casinos don&#8217;t produce goods of lasting value to make the country richer; our economy is highly dependent on fossil fuels, whose use must now be restricted to fight global warming.  And in such conditions, the budget cannot and should not be balanced.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-not-so-big-conservative-base/comment-page-2#comment-76150</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=17421#comment-76150</guid>
		<description>PracticalGirl: &lt;blockquote&gt; The current national GOP leadership, however, has an homogenous idea of Party positions. ....And meddling in areas where they don’t belong and don’t understand is a huge prblem too. NY district 23 is a great example. Had the original GOP candidate been allowed to run unopposed from the right, would she have won? &lt;/blockquote&gt;
You&#039;re contradicting yourself.

The GOP leadership were the ones who picked Scozzafava, a center-left Republican, to run in NY-23.  So they clearly were NOT wedded to a &quot;homogeneous idea of party positions,&quot; at least as far as NY-23 was concerned.

It was &quot;meddling&quot; for the GOP leadership to anoint Scozzafava, rather than having a primary and leaving the choice to the voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PracticalGirl:  The current national GOP leadership, however, has an homogenous idea of Party positions. &#8230;.And meddling in areas where they don’t belong and don’t understand is a huge prblem too. NY district 23 is a great example. Had the original GOP candidate been allowed to run unopposed from the right, would she have won?<br />
You&#8217;re contradicting yourself.</p>
<p>The GOP leadership were the ones who picked Scozzafava, a center-left Republican, to run in NY-23.  So they clearly were NOT wedded to a &#8220;homogeneous idea of party positions,&#8221; at least as far as NY-23 was concerned.</p>
<p>It was &#8220;meddling&#8221; for the GOP leadership to anoint Scozzafava, rather than having a primary and leaving the choice to the voters.</p>
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		<title>By: palomino70</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-not-so-big-conservative-base/comment-page-2#comment-76144</link>
		<dc:creator>palomino70</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=17421#comment-76144</guid>
		<description>annie:  &quot;Democrats are far less extremist these days than Republicans. These some-all fallacies that some on this blog like to use – that Democrats are ‘leftists’ is very wrong. &quot;

The knee-jerk GOP critique of Obama on virtually all issues is that he&#039;s a &quot;dangerous left-wing radical.&quot;  You hear this from Congressional leaders, especially on the House side, as well as the conservative talkers Hannity, Beck et al.   But this doesn&#039;t even approach the reality:  Obama has staked out moderate positions on issue after issue, much to the chagrin of the real leftists in his party.  Just a few examples off the top of my head:  Iraq, Afghanistan, gay marriage, bailouts, single payer.  On each of those issues, the Dem base and the real liberals in Congress strongly disagree with Obama&#039;s approach.  

Continuing to call Obama a &quot;radical&quot; will probably work about as well as it did in the 90s, when the GOP&#039;s stock response to Clinton was to label him a socialist.  Extreme rhetoric like that did little to diminish Clinton&#039;s popularity, and nothing to prevent his re-election.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>annie:  &#8220;Democrats are far less extremist these days than Republicans. These some-all fallacies that some on this blog like to use – that Democrats are ‘leftists’ is very wrong. &#8221;</p>
<p>The knee-jerk GOP critique of Obama on virtually all issues is that he&#8217;s a &#8220;dangerous left-wing radical.&#8221;  You hear this from Congressional leaders, especially on the House side, as well as the conservative talkers Hannity, Beck et al.   But this doesn&#8217;t even approach the reality:  Obama has staked out moderate positions on issue after issue, much to the chagrin of the real leftists in his party.  Just a few examples off the top of my head:  Iraq, Afghanistan, gay marriage, bailouts, single payer.  On each of those issues, the Dem base and the real liberals in Congress strongly disagree with Obama&#8217;s approach.  </p>
<p>Continuing to call Obama a &#8220;radical&#8221; will probably work about as well as it did in the 90s, when the GOP&#8217;s stock response to Clinton was to label him a socialist.  Extreme rhetoric like that did little to diminish Clinton&#8217;s popularity, and nothing to prevent his re-election.</p>
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		<title>By: Reason60</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-not-so-big-conservative-base/comment-page-2#comment-76143</link>
		<dc:creator>Reason60</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=17421#comment-76143</guid>
		<description>Sinz-
Again, I agree with you about the need to sometimes run deficits. I don&#039;t disagree with basic Keynsian economics that in a recession, the government can stimulate the economy by spending borrowed money, then paying it back during the good times.
Trouble is, both parties seem to run massive deficits in bad time, good time, and all the times in between.
Worse, the Buch deficits were created not by the government building roads, bridges, rail lines or even giving money away to businesses to build factories. No, the deficits were incurred mostly to finance wars, spending good money on things that had no appreciable benefit to our economy.

I harp on this, mostly because it shows how disconnected from reality and conservative principles the &quot;conservative movement&quot; has become.

Palin/ Beck/ Limbaugh do not run around making arguments about how to fix the economy; unless one considers &quot;tax cuts&quot; to be the essence of reasonable economics.
Conservatism, as I mentioned in the earlier post, always seeks the reasonable solution based on evidence; which means that sometimes taxes should be cut, sometimes raised; sometimes the budget should be balanced, sometimes not;

The conservative movement is wedded to abstractions like capitalism and supply side economics, and considers any other solutions to be heresy, traitorous and inconceivable.

So as a conservative, I would argue that Omaba&#039;s stimulus is the most reasonable economic policy I have heard. I only wish he would consider a Value Added Tax, or adjustment in the income tax, to increase revenue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sinz-<br />
Again, I agree with you about the need to sometimes run deficits. I don&#8217;t disagree with basic Keynsian economics that in a recession, the government can stimulate the economy by spending borrowed money, then paying it back during the good times.<br />
Trouble is, both parties seem to run massive deficits in bad time, good time, and all the times in between.<br />
Worse, the Buch deficits were created not by the government building roads, bridges, rail lines or even giving money away to businesses to build factories. No, the deficits were incurred mostly to finance wars, spending good money on things that had no appreciable benefit to our economy.</p>
<p>I harp on this, mostly because it shows how disconnected from reality and conservative principles the &#8220;conservative movement&#8221; has become.</p>
<p>Palin/ Beck/ Limbaugh do not run around making arguments about how to fix the economy; unless one considers &#8220;tax cuts&#8221; to be the essence of reasonable economics.<br />
Conservatism, as I mentioned in the earlier post, always seeks the reasonable solution based on evidence; which means that sometimes taxes should be cut, sometimes raised; sometimes the budget should be balanced, sometimes not;</p>
<p>The conservative movement is wedded to abstractions like capitalism and supply side economics, and considers any other solutions to be heresy, traitorous and inconceivable.</p>
<p>So as a conservative, I would argue that Omaba&#8217;s stimulus is the most reasonable economic policy I have heard. I only wish he would consider a Value Added Tax, or adjustment in the income tax, to increase revenue.</p>
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		<title>By: athensboy</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-not-so-big-conservative-base/comment-page-2#comment-76142</link>
		<dc:creator>athensboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 19:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=17421#comment-76142</guid>
		<description>I agree with Sinz that the gop candidates that won in VA and NJ won by not hammering their conservative bonafides,BUT, agree with anniemargret that the Palin wing will run exclusively on the culture wars.This is where I see the schism in the gop.The Palin wing wants to polarize this country and Sarah is doing a good job of this whether it is intentional or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Sinz that the gop candidates that won in VA and NJ won by not hammering their conservative bonafides,BUT, agree with anniemargret that the Palin wing will run exclusively on the culture wars.This is where I see the schism in the gop.The Palin wing wants to polarize this country and Sarah is doing a good job of this whether it is intentional or not.</p>
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		<title>By: PracticalGirl</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-not-so-big-conservative-base/comment-page-2#comment-76141</link>
		<dc:creator>PracticalGirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 19:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=17421#comment-76141</guid>
		<description>Sinz-

Your original point from your first point touched on something important.  America is full of districts, represented by politicians who should be catering to that base.  But I disagree with you that the polarization effect is due to local, rather than national, interests.  Especially in the current GOP national party, there seems to be a concerted effort to ignore that Republicans around the country are not one-size-fits-all.  A GOP voter in, say, Oklahoma, has basic conservative ideals of the national party but differs greatly with say, a GOPer in California or Oregon, on many social issues.  Their representatives understand this (witness Olymipa Snowe&#039;s indredible popularity in Maine, despite being labeled a RINO), and go to Congress with the intention of supporting the views of their constituents.

The current national GOP leadership, however, has an homogenous idea of Party positions.  Its is their charge, of course, and their option.  The problem lies when the fringe element in the national party starts making across-the-board demands on their politicians that are based on polarized priorities that have nothing to do with regional priorities.  And meddling in areas where they don&#039;t belong and don&#039;t understand is a huge prblem too. NY district 23 is a great example.  Had the original GOP candidate been allowed to run unopposed from the right, would she have won?  Given that that particular electorate had elected an &quot;R&quot; since 1757, I&#039;d have to say that there was at least a fighting chance.  Instead, there was a factional split and the seat went the other way. 

I&#039;m not arguing who would be the better representative for the national GOP interests, rather, that the electorate had been sending a relatively moderate Republican-one that reflected the concerns of the local electorate- to Washington election after election.  And when push came to shove and the choice was between a radically right candidate and a center left one, center left (and the Democrats) won.  The electorate- just as the local GOP knew- rejects fringe in favor of the center. 

Even while the candidates refused local media interviews, Hoffman involved himself in a media blitz with Beck, Ingraham, Limbaugh et all, all of whom have strong media presences in upstate New York and how FUN it was for the national stars to come out for him and bring Sarah Palin with them! But really-what the hell did they really know about the regional politics of the area?  Not enough to even question the candidate they backed about why he lived out of the district he was running in.  Do read or listen to some of those interviews...HILARIOUS in their fluff. 

If the GOP wants to gain national strength again, it will have to go back to broadbase support for broad Conservative concepts (and support them with a matching legislative agenda) rather than narrow, zealous insistence that every GOPer in the country embrace the fringe. And it will stay out of regional political fights that it doesn&#039;t comprehend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sinz-</p>
<p>Your original point from your first point touched on something important.  America is full of districts, represented by politicians who should be catering to that base.  But I disagree with you that the polarization effect is due to local, rather than national, interests.  Especially in the current GOP national party, there seems to be a concerted effort to ignore that Republicans around the country are not one-size-fits-all.  A GOP voter in, say, Oklahoma, has basic conservative ideals of the national party but differs greatly with say, a GOPer in California or Oregon, on many social issues.  Their representatives understand this (witness Olymipa Snowe&#8217;s indredible popularity in Maine, despite being labeled a RINO), and go to Congress with the intention of supporting the views of their constituents.</p>
<p>The current national GOP leadership, however, has an homogenous idea of Party positions.  Its is their charge, of course, and their option.  The problem lies when the fringe element in the national party starts making across-the-board demands on their politicians that are based on polarized priorities that have nothing to do with regional priorities.  And meddling in areas where they don&#8217;t belong and don&#8217;t understand is a huge prblem too. NY district 23 is a great example.  Had the original GOP candidate been allowed to run unopposed from the right, would she have won?  Given that that particular electorate had elected an &#8220;R&#8221; since 1757, I&#8217;d have to say that there was at least a fighting chance.  Instead, there was a factional split and the seat went the other way. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not arguing who would be the better representative for the national GOP interests, rather, that the electorate had been sending a relatively moderate Republican-one that reflected the concerns of the local electorate- to Washington election after election.  And when push came to shove and the choice was between a radically right candidate and a center left one, center left (and the Democrats) won.  The electorate- just as the local GOP knew- rejects fringe in favor of the center. </p>
<p>Even while the candidates refused local media interviews, Hoffman involved himself in a media blitz with Beck, Ingraham, Limbaugh et all, all of whom have strong media presences in upstate New York and how FUN it was for the national stars to come out for him and bring Sarah Palin with them! But really-what the hell did they really know about the regional politics of the area?  Not enough to even question the candidate they backed about why he lived out of the district he was running in.  Do read or listen to some of those interviews&#8230;HILARIOUS in their fluff. </p>
<p>If the GOP wants to gain national strength again, it will have to go back to broadbase support for broad Conservative concepts (and support them with a matching legislative agenda) rather than narrow, zealous insistence that every GOPer in the country embrace the fringe. And it will stay out of regional political fights that it doesn&#8217;t comprehend.</p>
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