Comments on: The Great Crash http://www.frumforum.com/the-great-crash Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:50:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: BradTempleman http://www.frumforum.com/the-great-crash/comment-page-1#comment-58913 BradTempleman Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:07:10 +0000 #comment-58913 You nailed a lot of their problems, but one underreported problem is how udnerpopulated and big it is. Manhattan, Boston and San Francisco are 118 square miles combined; Detroit is 138 by itself. It has less than 1 million people, while the other three cities combine for almost 3 million people. A lot of that area is a wasteland that will not be developed and where they will get no tax revenue. I did not grow up in Detroit, but I live in one of the suburbs in the Detroit Metro area right now. There are so many abandoned buildings and factories that you see driving down there and once you are in the city. t would be great to see them demolished. They held onto the dream of returning to the post-war auto industry for too long and the identity of being the Motor City. Now, they have to reinvent themselves into something other than the Motor City, which will be difficult and require a lot of new thinking. I'm not optimistic about the near future, but eventually leaders in Detroit and Michigan will wise up. I hope. You nailed a lot of their problems, but one underreported problem is how udnerpopulated and big it is. Manhattan, Boston and San Francisco are 118 square miles combined; Detroit is 138 by itself. It has less than 1 million people, while the other three cities combine for almost 3 million people. A lot of that area is a wasteland that will not be developed and where they will get no tax revenue.

I did not grow up in Detroit, but I live in one of the suburbs in the Detroit Metro area right now. There are so many abandoned buildings and factories that you see driving down there and once you are in the city. t would be great to see them demolished. They held onto the dream of returning to the post-war auto industry for too long and the identity of being the Motor City. Now, they have to reinvent themselves into something other than the Motor City, which will be difficult and require a lot of new thinking. I’m not optimistic about the near future, but eventually leaders in Detroit and Michigan will wise up. I hope.

]]> By: Ron8200 http://www.frumforum.com/the-great-crash/comment-page-1#comment-58585 Ron8200 Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:45:10 +0000 #comment-58585 David Frum has covered most of the issues. The catalyst was the riots of 1967, 5000 federal troops were called in because the city and state could not handle the crisis. That was the heart attack that lead to the death of Detroit. Other cities recovered from riots, many learned their lessons and moved forward Detroit began to die. If you drive the streets that were burned out 42 years ago many of the lots are still vacant. The small businesses took the insurance money and moved to the suburbs. Detroit has spent hundreds of millions of dollars planning mass transit. The only thing ever built was a people mover that covers much of downtown. It has 13 stops and has never been profitable. If any mass transit had been built it might have saved Detroit. It would have had to been connected to the suburbs to have any effect. If the money spent extending any of the freeways had been spent on transit things might have been better. When a judge ruled busing was necessary to achieve integration white flight soared. Ask someone to put their 8 year old on a bus for 40 minutes each way shipping them to school miles from home. The community spirit schools foster was destroyed. Neighborhoods were destroyed, homeowners who left took high income, skills, jobs, education and community with them. In Rosedale Park 300 homes changed hands in less then a year. Even Motown moved to LA. Mr. Frum is right about Wayne State it is a commuter school hardly anybody lived on campus. There is little community, no academic society. Few campus spots to attract people. No artsy area's of galleries, restaurants, theartres, bars etc like you see in Ann Arbor and Lansing. The government of Detroit is designed with a strong mayor and a common council elected at large. No local alderman who is in charge of a district. No local accountablilty, No local leadership, No competition between wards. No two party system to balance each other off and provide some leverage to the control of the mayor. Who do you go to with a problem. Coleman Young, one of America's first black mayors, a hero to the black community. mayor from 1974 to 1993. He consolidated black control over Detroit. He said we are in charge and if you don't like it hit 8 mile road. As his tax base dissolved he raised the city income and property taxes. Businesses also fled Detroit. Detroit was the Murder capital of America. Foreign news crews came in to film Devil's Night in Detroit where a new type of urban renewal was displayed as dozens of abandoned home were burned sometimes igniting other occupied dwellings nearby. When my home was broken into, my wife and one year old daughter walked into the house and called police. It took three hours for police to respond to our home, the decision to leave was made on that day. We moved to Livonia, MI had better schools, city services and no fears of crime. My tax savings more then made up for the slightly higher morgage payment. Today my old neightborhood has boarded up abandoned homes. Detroit has been represented by John Conyers in the House of Representives since 1964 I believe no part of the United States has more poverty, unemployment, welfare, corruption then Mr. Conyers district. Mrs. Conyers has recently pleaded guilty to corruption charges. Carl Levin has been Senator from Michigan since 1978 it would not out of line to say he is Detroit's Senator. While bringing a great many government programs to Detroit no one can say Detroit is a better city then it was thirty years ago. Republicans gave up on Detroit, they have no base, no organization. Governor Engler (R)won with very little support from Detroit. Gov. Granholm (D)won with overwhelming support from Detroit. Great cities have politicial battles and several strong leaders. Monopoly leads to corruption and a lack of political competition has been terrible for Detroit. It pains me to visit Detroit. I was born and grew up there. I attended Cass Tech and Wayne State University. Michigan needs Detroit to recover Mayor Dave Bing may be the first step of that recovery. I wish him well. David Frum has covered most of the issues.
The catalyst was the riots of 1967, 5000 federal troops were called in because the city and state could not handle the crisis. That was the heart attack that lead to the death of Detroit. Other cities recovered from riots, many learned their lessons and moved forward Detroit began to die. If you drive the streets that were burned out 42 years ago many of the lots are still vacant. The small businesses took the insurance money and moved to the suburbs.

Detroit has spent hundreds of millions of dollars planning mass transit. The only thing ever built was a people mover that covers much of downtown. It has 13 stops and has never been profitable. If any mass transit had been built it might have saved Detroit. It would have had to been connected to the suburbs to have any effect. If the money spent extending any of the freeways had been spent on transit things might have been better.

When a judge ruled busing was necessary to achieve integration white flight soared. Ask someone to put their 8 year old on a bus for 40 minutes each way shipping them to school miles from home. The community spirit schools foster was destroyed. Neighborhoods were destroyed, homeowners who left took high income, skills, jobs, education and community with them. In Rosedale Park 300 homes changed hands in less then a year. Even Motown moved to LA.

Mr. Frum is right about Wayne State it is a commuter school hardly anybody lived on campus. There is little community, no academic society. Few campus spots to attract people. No artsy area’s of galleries, restaurants, theartres, bars etc like you see in Ann Arbor and Lansing.

The government of Detroit is designed with a strong mayor and a common council elected at large. No local alderman who is in charge of a district. No local accountablilty, No local leadership, No competition between wards. No two party system to balance each other off and provide some leverage to the control of the mayor. Who do you go to with a problem.

Coleman Young, one of America’s first black mayors, a hero to the black community. mayor from 1974 to 1993. He consolidated black control over Detroit. He said we are in charge and if you don’t like it hit 8 mile road. As his tax base dissolved he raised the city income and property taxes. Businesses also fled Detroit.

Detroit was the Murder capital of America. Foreign news crews came in to film Devil’s Night in Detroit where a new type of urban renewal was displayed as dozens of abandoned home were burned sometimes igniting other occupied dwellings nearby.

When my home was broken into, my wife and one year old daughter walked into the house and called police. It took three hours for police to respond to our home, the decision to leave was made on that day.
We moved to Livonia, MI had better schools, city services and no fears of crime. My tax savings more then made up for the slightly higher morgage payment. Today my old neightborhood has boarded up abandoned homes.

Detroit has been represented by John Conyers in the House of Representives since 1964 I believe no part of the United States has more poverty, unemployment, welfare, corruption then Mr. Conyers district. Mrs. Conyers has recently pleaded guilty to corruption charges. Carl Levin has been Senator from Michigan since 1978 it would not out of line to say he is Detroit’s Senator. While bringing a great many government programs to Detroit no one can say Detroit is a better city then it was thirty years ago.
Republicans gave up on Detroit, they have no base, no organization. Governor Engler (R)won with very little support from Detroit. Gov. Granholm (D)won with overwhelming support from Detroit.

Great cities have politicial battles and several strong leaders. Monopoly leads to corruption and a lack of political competition has been terrible for Detroit.

It pains me to visit Detroit. I was born and grew up there. I attended Cass Tech and Wayne State University. Michigan needs Detroit to recover Mayor Dave Bing may be the first step of that recovery.
I wish him well.

]]> By: derm81 http://www.frumforum.com/the-great-crash/comment-page-1#comment-58555 derm81 Fri, 07 Aug 2009 00:44:22 +0000 #comment-58555 “Detroit has never been protective of its past” That is true. Detroit has never been protective of its buildings and will continue to tear them down. Had Detroit saved dozens of its glorious buildings its architecture stock would rival that of Chicago. Untold numbers of mansions, cathedrals, theaters, office buildings and monuments have been destroyed. “The second factor in Detroit’s decline is the city’s defiant rejection of education and the arts” Bullshiat. Detroit had a much larger and wealthier community than Cleveland ever had and a larger upper class than Chicago. The DIA when it was built could rival Chicago and Cleveland. Having visited well north of 200 art museums across the globe, I can conclude that Detroit’s art museum is much better than the one in Cleveland. How about of culture? Motown music? Jazz and Blues? Birthplace of punk rock? Your definition of culture seems to be something out of Ward Cleaver’s book. Culture and art can come in many forms and doesn’t have to be in a formal museum or structure. It can be more holistic…something Cleveland never really had. “Why did Chicago recover and Detroit fail?” The white population never came back…period. Not just gays, but the white population general. You see, the whites controlled everything in Detroit and they took it with them out the burbs. No offense, but the gay population isn’t always the magic key to creating and cleaning up downtrodden neighborhoods. “Detroit has… Wayne State” So? Nothing better than hearing A Yale grad piss on a working class school. David Frum just hates Wayne State because Helen Thomas graduated from there. The whites picked up the toys and moved to the burbs and never came back. Cleveland and Chi never suffered that same fate. An outsider like me and Frum will never really understand what happened....when I visited Detroit the segeration was so thick that you could cut it with a knife. Blacks and whites generally do not get alon in Detroit or SE Mich. in general. The problem with Detroit’s racial issues really stems from the poor WHITES and poor BLACKS migrating from the South in search for work. Add that issue with the labor issues in a hardworking town and you will get trouble. Cleveland and Cji never had the types of migration that Detroit had. I know you would like to see that they had similar migrations from blacks but that is not true. Detroit was FAR more industrialized that C-land and Chi put together. Detroit has THREE defintions so Frum and the east Coasters....listen up. Detroit defitnion #1: The actual City of Detroit with 140 sq miles. Detroit defitnion #2: SE Michigan or Metro Detroit Detroit defitnion #3: The automobile industry...synonymous like Vietnam is with the Vietanm War and not the nation of Vietnam or how Hollywood defines movies. “Detroit has never been protective of its past”

That is true. Detroit has never been protective of its buildings and will continue to tear them down. Had Detroit saved dozens of its glorious buildings its architecture stock would rival that of Chicago. Untold numbers of mansions, cathedrals, theaters, office buildings and monuments have been destroyed.

“The second factor in Detroit’s decline is the city’s defiant rejection of education and the arts”

Bullshiat. Detroit had a much larger and wealthier community than Cleveland ever had and a larger upper class than Chicago. The DIA when it was built could rival Chicago and Cleveland. Having visited well north of 200 art museums across the globe, I can conclude that Detroit’s art museum is much better than the one in Cleveland.

How about of culture? Motown music? Jazz and Blues? Birthplace of punk rock? Your definition of culture seems to be something out of Ward Cleaver’s book. Culture and art can come in many forms and doesn’t have to be in a formal museum or structure. It can be more holistic…something Cleveland never really had.

“Why did Chicago recover and Detroit fail?”

The white population never came back…period. Not just gays, but the white population general. You see, the whites controlled everything in Detroit and they took it with them out the burbs. No offense, but the gay population isn’t always the magic key to creating and cleaning up downtrodden neighborhoods.

“Detroit has… Wayne State”

So? Nothing better than hearing A Yale grad piss on a working class school. David Frum just hates Wayne State because Helen Thomas graduated from there.

The whites picked up the toys and moved to the burbs and never came back. Cleveland and Chi never suffered that same fate. An outsider like me and Frum will never really understand what happened….when I visited Detroit the segeration was so thick that you could cut it with a knife. Blacks and whites generally do not get alon in Detroit or SE Mich. in general.

The problem with Detroit’s racial issues really stems from the poor WHITES and poor BLACKS migrating from the South in search for work. Add that issue with the labor issues in a hardworking town and you will get trouble. Cleveland and Cji never had the types of migration that Detroit had. I know you would like to see that they had similar migrations from blacks but that is not true. Detroit was FAR more industrialized that C-land and Chi put together.

Detroit has THREE defintions so Frum and the east Coasters….listen up.

Detroit defitnion #1: The actual City of Detroit with 140 sq miles.
Detroit defitnion #2: SE Michigan or Metro Detroit
Detroit defitnion #3: The automobile industry…synonymous like Vietnam is with the Vietanm War and not the nation of Vietnam or how Hollywood defines movies.

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