RSS Feed MenuI doubt very much that the Dems imagine that they can actually enact an amnesty for illegal immigrants through an exhausted and (post Dodd and Dorgan) frightened Congress, in a time of high unemployment, over the opposition of large majorities of likely voters. So what ARE they doing? Two things:
1) Pleasing a constituency in an inexpensive way. It’s like card check: “Here is something we’d love to do for you, if only those evil Republicans didn’t thwart us. Oh well … you’re welcome.
2) Setting a trap for Republicans. While support for amnesty does not win Hispanic votes for the GOP, there’s good reason to fear that vociferous opposition to amnesty hurts. As the debate opens, audience-chasing talk radio figures will say inflammatory things that will annoy and enrage Hispanic voters – and can then be blamed on the Republican party. Rush Limbaugh et al won’t stop amnesty: It’ll collapse of its own inherent unpopularity. They will however ensure that the battle over amnesty exacts as high a political price from the likely winners as from the eventual losers.
Danny_K // Jan 7, 2010 at 12:15 am
This comment section should provide a great preview of the frenzy to come. I think it will also be a good wedge to split the angry base from the Big Money elite, since business and agriculture love their access to cheap labor.
Too bad the Dems will screw it up somehow.
sdspringy // Jan 7, 2010 at 12:48 am
David, you missed the very important #3.
Will the Dems push amnesty, placing all those illegals onto the new healthcare system. Will the Dems prove the “You Lie” Republican accurate and Obama a liar by granting amnesty and thus healthcare.
Don’t think the Dems have enough courage for that.
franco 2 // Jan 7, 2010 at 8:16 am
The Democrats are going to fall into that trap then.
The fact is the lines have already been drawn, we have already had this argument in full. As far as the Hispanic vote goes, nothing much will change with the debate. Some may be slightly more motivated to vote, but that will be more than offset by non Hispanics coming out to vote against politicians of both parties (mostly Democrats) who are clueless enough to advocate for this issue.
There is another shift that Frum and his friends are very slow to digest. American have become extremely cynical and wary about our Congress. They have lost nearly ALL their credibility.
But how many independents and Democrats will object to this insane strategy? Many more. It will make Congress look more out of touch than ever. The “racism” meme is losing steam in every circle but hard-core leftists, and even they don’t really believe it, they just want to convince others because it redounds in their favor politically. The racism ammunition has been spent.
I believe Frum gives way too much credit to Democrats’ political acumen here. Think about it – in one year Obama’s favorables have plummeted faster than any President in modern history. Congressional esteem with the public is at an all-time low. Democrats are deserting like rats from a sinking ship. Many political pundits are predicting a loss of the House in 2010.
“As the debate opens, audience-chasing talk radio figures will say inflammatory things that will annoy and enrage Hispanic voters – and can then be blamed on the Republican party.”
Does it ever occur to Frum that populism is ,er, popular? If Limbaugh is “chasing” an audience it looks like he has already caught them. Besides, it doesn’t matter what nuanced stances Republicans take on this issue. It will still be blamed on Republicans. They will still be called racist xenophobes if they take any position one millimeter to the right of Democrats! It blows my mind that someone can still operate under the impression that whatever Republicans do – especially when it comes to race – can immunize them against these charges.
If it weren’t for Limbaugh other radio hosts and their listeners, we would already have amnestia from Bush and McCain.
This is the same logic many apply to radical Islam and the Israeli -Palestinian dilemmas. That if we don’t rock the boat, that if we stop antagonizing them, their feelings of hatred and resentment will subside. I think Frum knows in these cases that they won’t. They find new things to bother them to fuel their worldview. In the absence of civilian casualties, they will stage them!
One thing I have seen in watching all these debates: It is not the degree of racism, sexism, homophobia or xenophobia that animates the left. If any trace exists, or can be interpreted or fabricated, they bring the same self-righteousness and vehemence to the battle.
Once you realize this, as Limbaugh and millions of us have, you cease to be manipulated by these these false claims.
All these things are set in motion. If the Democrats push immigration reform it isn’t out of some grand political strategy, it is because they have painted themselves into a corner with Hispanic groups and PACs. It is because they feel their power slipping away and this may be their last chance to gain a huge voting block.
But what Democrats don’t know is how badly they are slipping with ordinary folks. They simply are in denial and the MSM helps to keep them there.
sinz54 // Jan 7, 2010 at 9:38 am
franco 2: This is the same logic many apply to radical Islam and the Israeli -Palestinian dilemmas. That if we don’t rock the boat, that if we stop antagonizing them, their feelings of hatred and resentment will subside.
Radical Islam has declared war on America.
We’re not at war with American Democrats. They are our fellow citizens who happen to have a different point of view. And in a democratic society, negotiation and compromise are the only peaceful way to work out a solution. When that’s broken down, the result has been political violence–in the 1860s and the 1960s. I don’t want to see a repetition of that.
Don’t ever compare these loyal American citizens to radical Islamists.
Pelosi is NOT our enemy. She’s more like a competitor, offering a different product to the American people than we are.
Kanzeon // Jan 7, 2010 at 9:51 am
A trap?
Bush and McCain advocated for bi-partisan “guest worker” immigration policies, in partnership with Ted Kennedy.
Recent history, then, would indicate that the Democrats would not encounter lockstep opposition from the Republicans on this issue. There isn’t any reason for immigration reform to collapse. But for some reason, you assume it would.
This is a problem within the Republican party. It isn’t the Democrat’s fault the crazies are taking over.
franco 2 // Jan 7, 2010 at 10:02 am
Sinz,
There is such a thing as an ANALOGY.
a·nal·o·gy (ə-nāl’ə-jē)
n. pl. a·nal·o·gies
Similarity IN SOME RESPECTS between things that are otherwise dissimilar.
A comparison based on such similarity. See Synonyms at likeness.
This is when you compare one aspect that is alike. Now, when you point out the aspects which are NOT alike as if to refute the analogy it is nonsensical. You see, then these thing would be exactly alike and there would be no need to make an analogy…
So what the similarity is that people who have made up their minds, people who are already agitated and who already have a stake in a position, are not likely to change their positions merely because their opponents modify their positions.. This is the similarity.
For you to claim that I am not making an analogy and instead likening Pelosi ( someone who I didn’t even mention) to radical extremists who want to murder us is ludicroius.
For you to lecture me is especially ignorant. “Don’t ever compare these loyal American citizens to radical Islamists.”
Who do you think you are?
franco 2 // Jan 7, 2010 at 10:06 am
I’m convinced Sinz can’t read. She may have been an engineer and can do some math but her verbal acumen is lacking.
Kanzeon // Jan 7, 2010 at 10:10 am
franco 2:
“Who do you think you are?”
By this time, most of us think you are either genuinely mentally ill or, more probably, a troll.
franco 2 // Jan 7, 2010 at 10:33 am
Kanzeon, do you know what an analogy is? I’m hoping you do.
franco 2 // Jan 7, 2010 at 10:38 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/05/democrats-are-dropping-li_n_412619.html
Here is a headline from the Huffington post TODAY
“Democrats are dropping like flies”
Sinz would say: How dare the Huffigton Post compare Democrats to flies! Democrats walk on two legs and are hominids. Flies are insects and fly, which Democrats don’t do unless they have a G 4. Democrats are patriots and don’t shit on everyone’s food!
Kanzeon // Jan 7, 2010 at 10:41 am
franco 2:
Sorry, your posts aren’t worth the bandwidth, or the wear on anyone’s keyboard.
franco 2 // Jan 7, 2010 at 10:43 am
I’m channeling Sinz here…How DARE you call me a troll! Trolls live under bridges and are not even real! I’m real and I don’t live under a bridge. Don’t ever compare me to a fictional character again! I’m real!!
No, you are right kanzeon, I’m insane and you all are quite sane. It’s ok, whatever you say folks, you’re the judges!
franco 2 // Jan 7, 2010 at 10:49 am
“Recent history, then, would indicate that the Democrats would not encounter lockstep opposition from the Republicans on this issue. There isn’t any reason for immigration reform to collapse. But for some reason, you assume it would.”
Er what planet are you on? With a name like Kanzeon it is probably a planet devoid of knowledge of current unemployment figures. back in the days when Bush and McCain advocated immigration reform Unemployment was hovering around 5 % about as low as it can go in a dynamic job market. Remember the phrase “jobs Americans won’t do”? Try that slogan today.Please, please try using that phrase today.
But for some reason….
Hmmm, that’s one of them, sport.
COProgressive // Jan 7, 2010 at 1:28 pm
David said;
“I doubt very much that the Dems imagine that they can actually enact an amnesty for illegal immigrants through an exhausted and (post Dodd and Dorgan) frightened Congress, in a time of high unemployment, over the opposition of large majorities of likely voters.”
I don’t know of any legislation queued up for “amnesty” in congress. I maybe wrong about that. But rather than amnesty, one way to reduce the number of undocumented worker here is to reduce the market for their labor. That can be done with strict enforcement of illegal labor laws. If businesses that knowingly hire the undocumented workers are heavily fined, like $100,000 per illegal worker, and if we can close down a few of those businesses that are exploiting those workers, it just might send a message to the business community to stop the illegal hiring and support “Guest Worker” legislation and we could just forego and need for “Amnesty”.
Another advantage of strict enforcement and the drying up of the illegal job market would be to encourage those here illegally to seek employment in their homeland. I don’t have an issue with people migrating to where the work is in an attempt to feed their families. Hell, Americans do that all the time. But in a time of high unemployment we can’t continue to support foreign counties by allowing the wages of workers to be sent to other countries.
DFL // Jan 7, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Hispanics don’t care one hoot about talk radio. They don’t listen to Rush or Sean or Mark or any of the other blabbermoouths. Hispanics have their own radio stations blaring salsa, which is almost as bad as rap and computer music.
jabbermule // Jan 7, 2010 at 2:40 pm
Kanzeon (to franco 2): “Sorry, your posts aren’t worth the bandwidth, or the wear on anyone’s keyboard.”
Actually, they are worth the bandwidth, and a whole lot more…franco is one of the few contributors in here who is willing to confront you lefty trolls head on.
Kanzeon // Jan 7, 2010 at 4:10 pm
jabbermule
“franco is one of the few contributors in here who is willing to confront you lefty trolls head on.”
Yeah, I noticed a lot of reticence on the right here. Good point. You guys need more shriekers.
aDude // Jan 7, 2010 at 4:21 pm
There is, of course, a more cynical strategy the Democrats could follow. They could do a lot of talking about immigration reform (hearings and the like) without actually proposing anything, and let the right wing crazies (Tancredo comes to mind) go apoplectic about how Hispanics will destroy American culture.
There would not be any actual legislation for the masses in the middle to get angry about, no Republican will have the balls to oppose the xenophobes, and the end result will be for Hispanics to be energized to vote against the party that appears to desire an America that is free of Hispanics.
On the other hand, if we Republicans were to propose something rational, like offering guest worker status (but no path to citizenship) for the 12 million or so illegal immigrants, and increasing the number of slots for legal immigrants (both manual labor and highly educated), then we would have a winning strategy.
Putting the illegals at the end of the line for citizenship preserves the rule of law with respect to immigration and naturalization. Their children born here are citizens already. As a matter of law we would like to know who the illegals are and have them integrated into the above ground society. That means drivers licenses, taxes, etc. As non-citizens, they are would not be eligible for government provided health care, or welfare, or unemployment compensation. If they don’t like those restrictions, they are free to return to their country or origin.
(The idea that jack booted storm troopers are going to round up 12 million illegals and put them on trains to the south brings back images that I really don’t think Americans want to repeat).
jabbermule // Jan 7, 2010 at 5:03 pm
Kanzeon:
“Yeah, I noticed a lot of reticence on the right here. Good point. You guys need more shriekers.”
You’re right, we do – shriekers tend to win more elections. Dems proved that in ‘06 and ‘08.
jabbermule // Jan 7, 2010 at 5:10 pm
aDude:
The best thing Republicans can do right now is to propose legislation make it much easier to become a citizen. As it stands, it takes 8-10 years to gain citizenship in this country. That’s ridiculous. The only reason people are coming across the border undocumented is because it’s simply too long and difficult to gain citizen status in this country. Let’s cut the time frame down to a year or two: get your green card after one year, become a citizen after two.
It doesn’t take 10 years to prove your loyalty to this country. If people want to come here, let’s put them to work and make them responsible, tax-paying, voting citizens as soon as possible.
sdspringy // Jan 7, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Franco 2, nicely done and very humorous with a pinch of sarcasm. A effective 1,2 combination.
Applause
franco 2 // Jan 7, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Thanks sdspringy and jabbermule…
mm232 // Jan 23, 2010 at 2:02 am
Anyone advocating a guest worker program, will guarantee only one thing, massive republican losses in the mid term and beyone, as well as a third party that won’t be a loser, unlike in the past. Do any of you believe that neo-con ideology is accepted by the vast majority of conservatives or republicans any more? Neo-conservative ideology has helped create the terrible economic devastation our country is facing, every bit as much as left wing ideology has. This time round, we have republicans, independents and democrats rejecting either political extreme, as they’ve had their eyes opened. If you’re in denial, and seek to promote any more of this idiocy, I’d like to suggest that you try it in another country, as we’ve heard it all before, and we’re informing republican elected officials that if they kowtow to neo-cons, their asses will be shown the door every bit as fast as the democrats will be.
We reject the lies that the US can be a “service” or “info” economy. We demand manufacturing be brought back, or new manufacturers being incentivized into creation, and our trade laws be changed to make it that much less attractive for imports, especially by those former US companies that like to refer to themselves as “multinationals”. No one believes in the lies of the “best and the brightest”. Anyone who has dealt with an H1B, an L1, etc.. visa worker knows what a farce that is. They are incompetent, corrupt, and their so called education and “skills” are laughable. It’s the reason that Bill Gates arm wrestled with Washington state colleges and universities to accept his cheap foreign labor at in state tuition rates, because they were incompetent, but cheap. Nor are we snowed by the lies that we have a worker or skills shortage, that bs has been exposed for what it is.