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	<title>Comments on: The Dangers Of A Presidential Speech To The Muslim World</title>
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	<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world</link>
	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: RLHotchkiss</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world/comment-page-2#comment-42302</link>
		<dc:creator>RLHotchkiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-42302</guid>
		<description>I could give you equal quotes from the bible.  One of the primary religious text of Hinduism involves Arjuna being instructed to set aside his moral qualms about leading an apocalyptic war.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Islam certainly wouldn&#039;t be a religion that I am attracted to.  But the reality is that even during the recent heights of terrorism there were equally horrific acts of terror being committed in the name of Christ.  Just because we chose to ignore Sub Saharan Africa, doesn&#039;t mean that it does not in fact exist. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There have been any number of murderous terrorist organizations waging mayhem in the name of Christ and the ten commandments.  Religion is a tool like a gun.  The problem is how it is use.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am not saying that there is not differences between religions.  I certainly am not attracted to Islam.  But religious terror would still exist without Islam and it is quite possible to use Christianity and even Hinduism for that purpose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could give you equal quotes from the bible.  One of the primary religious text of Hinduism involves Arjuna being instructed to set aside his moral qualms about leading an apocalyptic war.  </p>
<p>Islam certainly wouldn&#8217;t be a religion that I am attracted to.  But the reality is that even during the recent heights of terrorism there were equally horrific acts of terror being committed in the name of Christ.  Just because we chose to ignore Sub Saharan Africa, doesn&#8217;t mean that it does not in fact exist. </p>
<p>There have been any number of murderous terrorist organizations waging mayhem in the name of Christ and the ten commandments.  Religion is a tool like a gun.  The problem is how it is use.</p>
<p>I am not saying that there is not differences between religions.  I certainly am not attracted to Islam.  But religious terror would still exist without Islam and it is quite possible to use Christianity and even Hinduism for that purpose.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world/comment-page-2#comment-44571</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-44571</guid>
		<description>RLHotchkiss claims:  &quot;Islam may be many things but it isn&#039;t an unusually violent or oppressive religion.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Yes it is.&lt;br&gt;Because the Quran specifically calls out the adherents of the other two great Western religions (Judaism and Christianity).  And it gives them an ultimatum. They must either:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;1.  Convert to Islam; or&lt;br&gt;2.  Be willing to be second-class citizens within an Islamic country, paying a special tax; or&lt;br&gt;3.  Flee; or&lt;br&gt;4.  Die.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The peaceful parts of the Quran were written during Mohammed&#039;s stay at Mecca.  He journeyed to Medina, trying out his stuff on the local Jews.  They said no thanks.  He got very angry. And when he got to Medina, that&#039;s when he wrote all that angry stuff in the Quran about convert-or-submit-or-flee-or-die.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And it&#039;s still in there.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;  &lt;br&gt;If you want specific quotes, I&#039;ll be happy to supply them.&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RLHotchkiss claims:  &#8220;Islam may be many things but it isn&#8217;t an unusually violent or oppressive religion.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes it is.<br />Because the Quran specifically calls out the adherents of the other two great Western religions (Judaism and Christianity).  And it gives them an ultimatum. They must either:</p>
<p>1.  Convert to Islam; or<br />2.  Be willing to be second-class citizens within an Islamic country, paying a special tax; or<br />3.  Flee; or<br />4.  Die.</p>
<p>The peaceful parts of the Quran were written during Mohammed&#8217;s stay at Mecca.  He journeyed to Medina, trying out his stuff on the local Jews.  They said no thanks.  He got very angry. And when he got to Medina, that&#8217;s when he wrote all that angry stuff in the Quran about convert-or-submit-or-flee-or-die.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s still in there.</p>
<p>If you want specific quotes, I&#8217;ll be happy to supply them.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world/comment-page-2#comment-52669</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-52669</guid>
		<description>RLHotchkiss asks:  &quot;Am I oppressed because most employers wouldn&#039;t let me wear a mini-skirt or shorts to work?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;No.  But you would be oppressed if your husband beat you with a stick for daring to wear clothing he disapproved of.  And if the courts always sided with him against you.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Surveys have found that wife-beating is endemic in the Muslim world.  In Pakistan, an amazing 85% of wives report being beaten by their husbands.&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RLHotchkiss asks:  &#8220;Am I oppressed because most employers wouldn&#8217;t let me wear a mini-skirt or shorts to work?&#8221;</p>
<p>No.  But you would be oppressed if your husband beat you with a stick for daring to wear clothing he disapproved of.  And if the courts always sided with him against you.  </p>
<p>Surveys have found that wife-beating is endemic in the Muslim world.  In Pakistan, an amazing 85% of wives report being beaten by their husbands.</p>
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		<title>By: RLHotchkiss</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world/comment-page-2#comment-42928</link>
		<dc:creator>RLHotchkiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 02:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-42928</guid>
		<description>&lt;br&gt;Fundamentally republicans lost because of their incompetence in foreign policy.  It is amazing how many otherwise intelligent people seem to have drunk the kool aid.  Islam may be many things but it isn&#039;t an unusually violent or oppressive religion.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Only by Ignoring sub Saharan Africa, South America, Northern Ireland, the Former republics of the Soviet Union, The Sikhs, the Tamil people, Hindus and countless other people can you paint Islam as unique source of violence. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Islam has its problems but a foreign policy based on the sins of Islam will be of no use as the world turns its attention from oil to the mineral riches of sub Saharan Africa and the Lithium mines of Bolivia.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What has changed is not that Islam is not a threat but that the Middle East is no longer the focus of our most pressing problems.  Republicans like to say that relations with Islam can&#039;t be focused on the Israel Peace deal.  But the real truth is we can&#039;t continue to base our dealings with Muslims on Israel when we have thousands of troops in Afghanistan a deteriorating situation in Pakistan a country with actual operational nukes and far more dangerous radicals than those in Iran.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The world has moved on Frum.  Americas balance of interest if not our hearts has shifted east.  Israel will have to make what peace it can.  And anyone who tells them the America is going to be there for them like in the past should talk to some Vietnamese, some Koreans, some Czechs, some Cubans, and some Taiwanese.   I remember in high school a Vietnamese girl spit out with such bitterness the promises that were made to her parents.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Those who utter such promises to the Israelis are just doing the same.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;We love Israel, but strategically we have moved on.  To pretend different will be to lead Israel to its ruin.&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fundamentally republicans lost because of their incompetence in foreign policy.  It is amazing how many otherwise intelligent people seem to have drunk the kool aid.  Islam may be many things but it isn&#8217;t an unusually violent or oppressive religion.</p>
<p>Only by Ignoring sub Saharan Africa, South America, Northern Ireland, the Former republics of the Soviet Union, The Sikhs, the Tamil people, Hindus and countless other people can you paint Islam as unique source of violence. </p>
<p>Islam has its problems but a foreign policy based on the sins of Islam will be of no use as the world turns its attention from oil to the mineral riches of sub Saharan Africa and the Lithium mines of Bolivia.  </p>
<p>What has changed is not that Islam is not a threat but that the Middle East is no longer the focus of our most pressing problems.  Republicans like to say that relations with Islam can&#8217;t be focused on the Israel Peace deal.  But the real truth is we can&#8217;t continue to base our dealings with Muslims on Israel when we have thousands of troops in Afghanistan a deteriorating situation in Pakistan a country with actual operational nukes and far more dangerous radicals than those in Iran.</p>
<p>The world has moved on Frum.  Americas balance of interest if not our hearts has shifted east.  Israel will have to make what peace it can.  And anyone who tells them the America is going to be there for them like in the past should talk to some Vietnamese, some Koreans, some Czechs, some Cubans, and some Taiwanese.   I remember in high school a Vietnamese girl spit out with such bitterness the promises that were made to her parents.</p>
<p>Those who utter such promises to the Israelis are just doing the same.</p>
<p>We love Israel, but strategically we have moved on.  To pretend different will be to lead Israel to its ruin.</p>
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		<title>By: RLHotchkiss</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world/comment-page-2#comment-43223</link>
		<dc:creator>RLHotchkiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 02:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-43223</guid>
		<description>I have to say that I am pretty blown away by Frum&#039;s cultural ignorance.  It is a truly quite stunning.   Am I oppressed because most employers wouldn&#039;t let me wear a mini-skirt or shorts to work?  Why can&#039;t I wear knee length shorts to work when ladies can wear knee length skirts.  Is it because we are obsessed male shins?  Is it because our women overlords think of us as soul less half human beast?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Am I crushed by christian oppression because I can&#039;t walk around in penis cap, for which the weather in San Diego is perfect.  If you are you are going to degrade the choices of Muslim women from your own shallow understanding of Islam and Arabic culture than you are the one that it is putting the wind pipe on women liberty  in Islamic states.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Must orthodox Jewish women throw away their wigs in public and show their own hair.  Are the orthodox women who attend services separated from men right across the street from the apartment where I am writing oppressed?  Must I barge in and tear down that screen to liberate them.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What about the Jewish men does covering their heads represent some strange head fetish.  If we allow Jewish students to attend class so dressed are damning them to inequality.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There is discrimination in Islamic countries against women. The head coverings are sometimes used as a means of controlling women.  But forcing them to forgoe them doesn&#039;t free them.  It just shows Muslim men that we don&#039;t respect their women either.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Islam like all religions has complicated issues with gender and sexuality.  But it is not a Gordian knot that can be cut by stripping of the veil.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say that I am pretty blown away by Frum&#8217;s cultural ignorance.  It is a truly quite stunning.   Am I oppressed because most employers wouldn&#8217;t let me wear a mini-skirt or shorts to work?  Why can&#8217;t I wear knee length shorts to work when ladies can wear knee length skirts.  Is it because we are obsessed male shins?  Is it because our women overlords think of us as soul less half human beast?</p>
<p>Am I crushed by christian oppression because I can&#8217;t walk around in penis cap, for which the weather in San Diego is perfect.  If you are you are going to degrade the choices of Muslim women from your own shallow understanding of Islam and Arabic culture than you are the one that it is putting the wind pipe on women liberty  in Islamic states.</p>
<p>Must orthodox Jewish women throw away their wigs in public and show their own hair.  Are the orthodox women who attend services separated from men right across the street from the apartment where I am writing oppressed?  Must I barge in and tear down that screen to liberate them.</p>
<p>What about the Jewish men does covering their heads represent some strange head fetish.  If we allow Jewish students to attend class so dressed are damning them to inequality.</p>
<p>There is discrimination in Islamic countries against women. The head coverings are sometimes used as a means of controlling women.  But forcing them to forgoe them doesn&#8217;t free them.  It just shows Muslim men that we don&#8217;t respect their women either.</p>
<p>Islam like all religions has complicated issues with gender and sexuality.  But it is not a Gordian knot that can be cut by stripping of the veil.  </p>
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		<title>By: ChristianMiller</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world/comment-page-2#comment-45676</link>
		<dc:creator>ChristianMiller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-45676</guid>
		<description>balconesfault  Well you just put more of your ignorance on display. The &quot;far right&quot; is not the same as the stereotype you have in your brain.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>balconesfault  Well you just put more of your ignorance on display. The &#8220;far right&#8221; is not the same as the stereotype you have in your brain.</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world/comment-page-2#comment-55052</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-55052</guid>
		<description>&quot;Do you have any idea how complex these issues are?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Yep.  But we&#039;re encouraged that someone from the far right acknowledges it.  That&#039;s a huge step from &quot;they&#039;re all evil, we&#039;re all good&quot;, and therefore commendable progress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Do you have any idea how complex these issues are?&#8221;</p>
<p>Yep.  But we&#8217;re encouraged that someone from the far right acknowledges it.  That&#8217;s a huge step from &#8220;they&#8217;re all evil, we&#8217;re all good&#8221;, and therefore commendable progress.</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world/comment-page-2#comment-46587</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-46587</guid>
		<description>&quot;Do you have any idea how complex these issues are?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Yep.  But we&#039;re encouraged that someone from the far right acknowledges it.  That&#039;s a huge step from &quot;they&#039;re all evil, we&#039;re all good&quot;, and therefore commendable progress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Do you have any idea how complex these issues are?&#8221;</p>
<p>Yep.  But we&#8217;re encouraged that someone from the far right acknowledges it.  That&#8217;s a huge step from &#8220;they&#8217;re all evil, we&#8217;re all good&#8221;, and therefore commendable progress.</p>
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		<title>By: ChristianMiller</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world/comment-page-2#comment-49324</link>
		<dc:creator>ChristianMiller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-49324</guid>
		<description>balconesfault,Bulldoglover100,&lt;br&gt; Haha Dream on. Oh, he&#039;s quaking in his galabaya. You obviously know nothing of Iran, the Iranian people and Iranian media and politics. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;...if diplomacy works! LOL&quot;  Really dreaming here. My God you people are deluded! Do you really believe Bush, Clinton going back to 1992 or even Carter who brokered a peace (only because Sadat decided to try it, with the help of massive bribes to all parties) haven&#039;t tried everything already? Do you have any idea how complex these issues are? How entrenched the beliefs and hatred? That even if Obama worked diplomatic miracles, any leaders signing on to the deal would be assassinated like Anwar Sadat? Arafat turned down the best deal he could ever have gotten from Clinton Why? Because he wanted to live to see another year. Furthermore, if the Palestinian/Israel problem were to magically go away tomorrow, they would invent more reasons to hate Israel and America.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The level of naivete about this is staggering. Nothing wrong with not knowing things, but the fact that you think you know enough about this is embarrassing. You both are showing yourselves to be clueless dreamers. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>balconesfault,Bulldoglover100,<br /> Haha Dream on. Oh, he&#8217;s quaking in his galabaya. You obviously know nothing of Iran, the Iranian people and Iranian media and politics. </p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;if diplomacy works! LOL&#8221;  Really dreaming here. My God you people are deluded! Do you really believe Bush, Clinton going back to 1992 or even Carter who brokered a peace (only because Sadat decided to try it, with the help of massive bribes to all parties) haven&#8217;t tried everything already? Do you have any idea how complex these issues are? How entrenched the beliefs and hatred? That even if Obama worked diplomatic miracles, any leaders signing on to the deal would be assassinated like Anwar Sadat? Arafat turned down the best deal he could ever have gotten from Clinton Why? Because he wanted to live to see another year. Furthermore, if the Palestinian/Israel problem were to magically go away tomorrow, they would invent more reasons to hate Israel and America.</p>
<p>The level of naivete about this is staggering. Nothing wrong with not knowing things, but the fact that you think you know enough about this is embarrassing. You both are showing yourselves to be clueless dreamers. </p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/the-dangers-of-a-presidential-speech-to-the-muslim-world/comment-page-2#comment-51321</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51321</guid>
		<description>&quot;Even if they give sweet and beautiful talks to the Muslim nation ... that will not create a change,&quot; said Khamenei, Iran&#039;s most powerful figure with the final say on all matters of state. &quot;Nothing will change with speeches and slogans.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And those, my friends, are the words of a man who is seriously scared that in fact his people WILL begin to listen to Obama ... and will compare what Khamenei and his clerics offer, and what Obama offers ... and choose Obama.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It is no coincidence, methinks, that this speech came right in the run-up to the Iranian elections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Even if they give sweet and beautiful talks to the Muslim nation &#8230; that will not create a change,&#8221; said Khamenei, Iran&#8217;s most powerful figure with the final say on all matters of state. &#8220;Nothing will change with speeches and slogans.&#8221;</p>
<p>And those, my friends, are the words of a man who is seriously scared that in fact his people WILL begin to listen to Obama &#8230; and will compare what Khamenei and his clerics offer, and what Obama offers &#8230; and choose Obama.</p>
<p>It is no coincidence, methinks, that this speech came right in the run-up to the Iranian elections.</p>
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