“You may find the link below helpful:)”

(*GOOD-NATURED GUFFAW*)

Cute, Sparky. (*SMILE*) (*CHUCKLE*)

Anyway… another dead horse.

At least when you’re pinned down you answer the questions. (*WINK*) But the pinning you down… (*SIGH*)… it’s such a long drawn out process…

(*GRIN*)

BILL

While you may have enrolled in a logic class, it seems apparent you did not attend or pass. I never said there were no inefficiencies in Medicare/Medicaid. What I said is that whatever inefficiencies exist, they are not the cause for those programs going broke. Those programs are going broke because of things that have nothing to do with how they are administered – demographic changes and longer life spans. You inability to address these points leads me to believe you either agree with me or you not sufficiently informed about the subject to offer a compelling response on the merits (and that’s ok).

As for Democratic expectations when the programs were implemented, I have no idea if they or anyone else knew in the mid-60s that (1) medical costs would outpace inflation so much, (2) life-spans would reach the levels they’ve now reached, or (3) there would be fewer workers relative to the number of retirees. In any event, none of those things would have been a reason to not go forward with a plan to provide quality healthcare for senior citizens. As evidenced by the experiences of every other Western nation, it is possible to provide quality healthcare to every single citizen without bankrupting the country.

You may find the link below helpful:)

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Clear-Thinking/sim/1592574319/2

So are you saying there are no “inefficiencies” in Medicare/Medicaid?

Hell… in a manner of speaking not properly factoring in demographic changes is pretty damn… er… “inefficient.”

“The purpose of the Medicare program…”

…is what it is. (*SIGH*) But figuring out how to IMPLEMENT that purpose without bankrupting the country… well… (*SNORT*)… that’s pretty important too, Kirk. (Sorry… I meant “Spartacus.”)

“…are you just too fixated in an ideological opposition…”

I’m fixated on REALITY. I’m fixated on WHAT IS and WHAT WILL BE if the same folks who dug us into this mess in the first place simply keep digging.

(*RUEFUL SMILE*)

“The program has been wildly successful in achieving that goal.”

So you say. (*SMILE*) Even stipulating that – for the sake of argument – if the program is fiscally/economically unsustainable then your “successes” will soon be a thing of the past.

“The article you linked to only points out the obvious and well-known fact that Medicare is going bankrupt.”

(*SNORT*) (*GUFFAW*) Yeah… absolutely NOTHING in that statement to give you pause… (*GRIN*)

Sparky. “Going bankrupt” is indeed a “fairly” important piece of the puzzle.

Oh… and btw… as you use the term “obvious” are you suggesting that the Dems KNEW that they were creating a time bomb each time they grew and expanded Medicare/Medicaid?

Sparky… you’re funny! I enjoy reading your ramblings. (*WINK*) Keep up the good work!

BILL

Are you pretending to be this slow in comprehending what I’ve written or are you just too fixated in an ideological opposition to what I’ve written?

liv&win referred to “inefficiencies” in the Medicare program as a reason for its financial problems. I countered by writing that Medicare’s financial problems are due to demographic changes (a larger elderly population as a percentage of the total population) and the sucess of the program itself (people are living longer, in part, because they have access to quality healthcare and, therefore, use more medical services than they would if they died sooner).

The purpose of the Medicare program is to provide quality care to all senior citizens. The program has been wildly successful in achieving that goal. The fact that there are fewer and fewer workers to pay for the care required by a growing senior population is not an”inefficiency” in the program, nor does it undermine my claim that Medicare has been very successful at providing quality care to senior citizens, thereby increasing their lifespans.

The article you linked to only points out the obvious and well-known fact that Medicare is going bankrupt. It doesn’t even address why Medicare is going broke or offer any solutions, one of which could be, as I stated in my original post, re-thinking how much care we, as a nation, consume when death is imminent.

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/07/15/house-health-bill-would-silence-trustee%E2%80%99s-medicare-bankruptcy-warnings/

Any thoughts…???

“…the success of the program itself…”

As in “successfully heading towards bankruptcy…???”

Sparky my regularly crucified gladiator cyberfriend… (*SMILE*)… Liv&Win’s “actuarial and demographic” data sharing is EXACTLY on point.

(Are you SURE you’re not Otto just posting under a different handle…???)

BILL

The actuarial and demographic factors you refer to in criticizing Medicare have nothing to do with inefficiencies in the program and more to do with the success of the program itself as well as an unreasonable belief that all or most costly end-of-life care is beneficial. More people are on the program because they are living longer, in large part, because of access to healthcare.

With respect to costly end-of-life care, I’m sure you are aware that 25% of the Medicare budget is spent on the last 3 months of a person’s life, and about 1/3 of that 25% is spent in the last month of life. This has nothing to do with program efficiencies and almost everything to do with how we choose to die in this country. There is a de facto rationing of care away from those who could benefit the most and toward those who have very little to gain at the ends of their lives.

Notice the deafening silence which greats the splashing (or shall I say “splatting”) of the cold water of fact and reason in the faces of the libs – and some self-identified conservatives.

See… this is why we’re f–ked. Reality and reason just doesn’t trump “hope” and personal ideals and preferences for most folks. When they’re faced with unpleasant truths… (*SHRUG*)… they’ll just ignore it and hope reality goes away.

(*SIGH*)

Well… off to play racquetball! (*WINK*)

BILL

And so now, we look at the wall that is our health care industry and idenfy our pile of crap, ‘look, that is my piece of crap health care plan’. Now any sane person would say, lets scrap all this stuff off and start over. But our brilliant politicians just want to throw more crap against the same wall. It is insane.

For all the hard core conservatives, many aspects of health care DO NOT respond to normal competitive economics. With a broken leg or sudden heart attack, there is no reasonable expectation that someone will pull out the yellow pages and call around and shop for health care. First, it is too complicated…”so doctor, for that $1200 you will also be running the sportex test series and doing the follow-up protocol as described in the 2006 article of the American Medical Journal, right?” (I made these things up because I am not a doctor).

Note that some medical services and procedures do infact respond to normal competitive pressures and economic principals. Cosmetic surgery does, but it is also voluntary and non-urgent. People can shop for that care.

But for you crazy anti-captialist liberals, government has demonstrated time and time again, that they can implement a program, but over time, the effectiveness and efficiency of those programs declines. Medicare was a decent idea, not great, but decent. But it was designed on a set of actuarial facts which have changed dramatically affecting the program adversely. Rather than adapting, the goverment has only one major tool, it reduces funding. Its the same with every socialized program in the world.

And to the liberals, the choice you want to make is this or that. But ‘this’ has positive and negatives as does ‘that’. Nowhere do I see an objective view coming from your side of the arguement.

Also, I would like to point out that the auto industry, which is so crucial to our economy has 622,000 manufacturing jobs. The health care industry has 14 million. IN addition, there are 436,00 health insurance agents who will be out of a job with health care reform. the insurance industry has 2.3 million jobs. Health care reform, if not done properly will have a tremendous impact on a major industry in USA. A reasonable estimate will be that between 1.5 and 2.5 million jobs will be lost with the current reform legislation going through congress.

I have not seen 1 liberal commentator discuss this FACT. Yet with the auto bailout, jobs was the only discussion.

Here is the bad news…2 million more out of work, no benefits, no insurance, paying no taxes…further straining a public system which is currently broke and not working. Add in health care legislation which does ZERO, NADA, NOTHING to reduce the cost of health care to you and me, and you have a catastrophe. I actually think the jobs picture will be worse because the legislation affects pharma in a big way. That impacts high tech jobs in the public sector and will have a dramatic impact on universities which do a lot of medical research. All that work will be outsourced and those jobs will be lost for a long time. Further, the pace of innovation and research will decline dramatically.

If this legislation passes, you will have lived through the golden age of health care. For the forseeable future, there will be little if any innovation. There will be fewer doctors. Access will be severly limited. People in the last 1-5 years of their lives will have limited access to health care. Infants, especially premature babies will not have access to the live saving technology on the scale that it is available today. Chronic diseases will be offered one treatment protocol, diet, exersize or death.

And any statement, like Ottos, about healthcare is simpleminded. Healthcare overruns are creating financial burdens in every government provided system in every country. Those countrys, such as France, are now having to reduce access to reduce cost. And they already tax EVERYONE in their country at 25% just for healthcare.

So forget the Obama promise about SunShine in government. This program will be pushed through at 3am, like the stimulus, and result is yet another government program that nobody knows what will cost.