RSS Feed MenuAs President Barack Obama scours the U.S. to drum up support for reforming healthcare, the Washington Post (among others) says the White House may be willing to dump its government-run insurance plan.
If so, this will have the duel effect of encouraging opponents of Obama’s goal to create a cheaper, non-profit, government-sponsored health plan for the 40 to 50 million Americans presently with no health insurance, while alienating liberal-left Democrats who seek to emulate a Canadian health system.
Looked at from the outside, it’s hard to see Obama succeeding.
Americans have been so conditioned for so long against anything resembling socialized medicine, that hackles rise at creating another government bureaucracy to manage health.
A couple of things stand out about universal healthcare.
A case can be made (from Canada’s experience) that you cannot maintain a healthcare system like Canada’s and at the same time maintain the world’s largest, best equipped, all-purpose military whose existence imposes caution on rogue elements of the world. A country that has the one, can’t easily have the other without a prohibitive tax increase.
America’s military is more important than universal healthcare.
Canada’s costly healthcare necessitates that its military be small, over-strained and under-financed. Competent but perpetually frustrated.
Another thing: Obama insists that if his health reform plan is passed, people can keep their current insurance plans. Wanna bet? (The bill is supposed to be ready by Sept. 15, but probably won’t be.)
If the government-run insurance plan were adopted whereby non-insured people would be insured, how long would private companies continue to contribute to the health insurance of their employees? Would they not start cutting health plans and force the government to pay? You know the answer as well as I do.
While Canada is cited by fans of universal health as an example to aspire to, opponents of socialized medicine see Canada as a disaster.
Apart from high costs necessitating a high tax rate, a huge downside is catastrophically long wait times for operations. This results in unknown numbers of deaths of patients waiting.
Emergency or critical cases are dealt with quickly and competently in Canada, but waiting to be diagnosed can be a death sentence. Access to healthcare in Canada is a continuing problem.
It is scandalous that getting an MRI in Canada can take weeks or months, and then done in the middle of the night. Often it’s who you know, what clout you have, your importance in the community that dictates if you go to the head of the queue. In the U.S., if you have money (a great equalizer) you get service. Period.
In the U.S., Obama must overcome prejudice against government-run health. While he stresses it’s reform he seeks, not control, critics fear “reforming” healthcare means “rationing” healthcare.
By instinct, Americans prefer less government to more government.
Judging from opinion polls and raucous town hall meetings, and from the unease of many elected Democrats, Americans are skeptical of Obamacare by a 2-1 margin.
And with a health reform bill that is 1,000 pages long, and wants the government rather than physicians deciding on end-of-life healthcare for the aged, few have a clue what reform would really mean.
Obama has staked his first year in office on healthcare reform – and so far he seems to have badly misjudged what Americans want or will accept.
fact checker // Aug 20, 2009 at 3:44 pm
If the government-run insurance plan were adopted whereby non-insured people would be insured, how long would private companies continue to contribute to the health insurance of their employees? Would they not start cutting health plans and force the government to pay? You know the answer as well as I do.
what i love about fools like you is how little you know about economics and in this case you dont even know the conservos argument
conservos want an end to employer provided healthcare and everyone sent to the individual market
if there were a public option that those that couldnt afford other insurance chose why would it mean the end of private insurance which as we all know is so wonderful
1. those people werent buying private insurance anyway
2. people who “learned” from you about how bad the public option would be would run to the private insurers giving them plenty of business
3. because poor people use the bare bones public option says nothing about the private alternative surviving
look at all the people in nyc taking cabs, private cars and limos while the hoi polloi take the subway amazingly enough the subway hasnt driven those private car services out of business (aktho the collapse of wall street might have done the trick for some)
btw look up the video of thousands and thousands waiting in the LA forum for free healthcare they couldnt afford and similar scenes elsewhere
barker13 // Aug 20, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Re: Rodak // Aug 20, 2009 at 12:06 pm (#19) –
“We need to reallocate our spending.”
Well I’m certainly with you there, Rodak…
(*HANDSHAKE*)
…though truth be told we both know that our spending priorities would be very different.
(I for one would dedicate 90% of our military resources towards creating an impenetrable shield around Scotland – thus ensuring the survival of the distilleries should war ever again envelop our world.)
(*WINK*)
“I’m personally more afraid of cancer than I am of Osama bin Laden.”
Me too!
“…we also make funds available to medical schools so as to allow them to expand their capacities to graduate more physicians.”
And then…???
“Ditto nurse practitioners…”
And then…???
Re: Ryanb // Aug 20, 2009 at 12:36 pm (#20) –
“I take solace in the fact that tax policy subsidizes my mortgage through tax deductions worth over $10,000 per year (actual tax savings on the 37k of mortgage interest I pay annually)…”
Not to switch topics, but just to throw this out… just as “real conservatives” (IMHO) should logically be opposed to taxpayer subsidized employee provided health insurance so should “true conservatives” (again… IMHO) be against the mortgage deduction.
$37,000 in interest alone – per year! Wow… you’re welcome! (*WINK*)
“…the “working” class gets nowhere near that, if anything at all.”
Yep. This is why I’m a flat tax kinda guy. (*SMILE*)
(Excellent post, Ryan! This is the kind of honest reflection we should all be echoing.)
I’m not against helping the poor… it’s subsidizing the middle and upper middle classes I can’t stand.
Oh, yes… agreed… it’s the upper middle, plain “upper,” and obviously “the rich” who pay the vast bulk of federal income taxes (as well as who create jobs and prosperity), but I still say that even if one accepts the idea of progressive taxation (which I do as a pragmatic bow to reality) wouldn’t it be simpler, easier, and more transparent to simply create a much flatter tax system.
(Folks… tax loophole don’t save “society” money. All they do is shift money around, creating individual winners and losers.) (*SHRUG*)
* Oops! The wife is home! Off to play racquetball! More later…
BILL
liv&win // Aug 20, 2009 at 7:01 pm
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/performers/industries/profits/
wow, my estimates are more accurate than what you know, otto. Don’t get lost on #22, review #27, #30, #34 and my favorite, #35
Rodak // Aug 20, 2009 at 7:09 pm
And then…???
And then more patients could be seen in less time, if “long lines” is the big worry. You have to wait for care only to the extent that there is not the personnel and/or the facilities available to meet the needs of the local population. That is fixable. It’s just a matter of setting priorities.
barker13 // Aug 20, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Re: Gcomeau // Aug 20, 2009 at 12:57 pm (#23) –
“…until someone shows me how long the average American REALLY waits for various medical procedures…”
Gco. We don’t wait. Not for important shit. Hell, not for elective crap either.
Yes, for whatever reason women seem to have to get their gyno appointments months in advance – but we’re talking their routine exams. If my wife or daughter feels a lump… we’re talking days – if that.
Children? Today’s American mom’s take their kids same day to see the pediatrician on a couple hours notice the second their little tyke says, “mommy… I’ve got a sore throat… my ear aches…” and demonstrates a fever. (*SNORT*)
And if we’re talking something the doc doesn’t like… something that even remotely strikes your GP (or even yourself in most cases) as “worrisome,” it’s off the specialist pretty much immediately and just as the American military is very good at blowing things up… our doctors and hospitals are extremely competent in kicking the crap out of life threatening illnesses if such is at all possible.
You don’t have to believe me. (*SHRUG*) And no, I’m not going to go nuts posting this stat and that stat. I’m just telling you my personal experience as a 47 year old middle class college American.
BILL
barker13 // Aug 20, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Re: Del // Aug 20, 2009 at 3:09 pm (#25) –
“…I injured my finger…”
You’re kidding – right?
(*HEADACHE*)
(Oops – I’d better see a doctor!) (*GRIN*)
Seriously… again, Del, I’m happy that you’re happy with your Canadian health care system. I truly am. But the Canadian model is nothing I’d want us to emulate.
(If you’re new to the site just take my word that I’ve explained why time and again. I’ve also fleshed out what sort of reforms I see as the way to go.)
Bottom line, though… should the shit ever hit the fan with your health or a loved one’s health… well… again I wish you the best. Me? If and when I face that… I’ll be happy to face it as an American.
(*WINK*)
BILL
gcomeau // Aug 20, 2009 at 7:24 pm
barker: I’ve lived in California for 10 years, you can’t actually bullshit me with bald faced absurdities like “we don’t wait”. Especially when you then proceed to be completely incapable of providing any hard data to back that up.
Not only do I not have to believe you, I would need to have suffered some moderately serious neurological trauma to believe you.
barker13 // Aug 20, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Re: Rodak // Aug 20, 2009 at 7:09 pm (#29) –
“And then more patients could be seen in less time, if “long lines” is the big worry. You have to wait for care only to the extent that there is not the personnel…”
Yep. (*SMILE*) Figured my unstated point would go right over your head.
Rodak. We’re not talking about creating widgets. We’re talking about training physicians.
Anyway… I suppose what you’re thinking of is creating a kind of “medical” service academy. (I assume one for doctors, one for nurses, perhaps others for the various technicians…???)
So then of course you have to have a U.S. Medical Corp. where in return for free training the newly minted interns (they’re not “real” doctors till they’ve done their internships, right?) (*SHRUG*) would have to guarantee a certain number of years of government service at set pay scales. (And of course course government doctors would work in government facilities… government owned… government run… government equipped…)
Those docs and nurses who stayed with the government to make it a career… we pay them government scale? Do they retire after 20 years… 25… 30…??? (You know how these pension programs turn upside down within a few generations…)
So… you envision an endless supply of the same caliber folks as those who get accepted to med schools nowadays to present themselves for government schooling and a government career path? No risk of sacrificing quality for quantity? No lessening of standards…???
OK. I suppose it’s possible. (*SHRUG*) Probable no… possible… perhaps. (*SHRUG*)
Anyway, just throwing some details at ya. Points to ponder. Me? I just don’t want to create another huge government bureaucracy.
BILL
barker13 // Aug 20, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Re: Gcomeau // Aug 20, 2009 at 7:24 pm (#32) –
“I’ve lived in California for 10 years…”
Why? I mean… if Canada’s so superior… (*QUIZZICAL SHRUG*)
In any case, good for you. I’ve lived in New York most of my life and attended university in Boston. I also ran the British Empire for a few months in the fall of ‘86.
(*WINK*) (Study abroad internship with a MP; perhaps a SLIGHT exaggeration in saying I ran the country – though to this day I still don’t know how Maggie and Liz did it without me!)
“…bald faced absurdities…
Gco. You’re a poster on an internet site. I don’t know who you are or what you are; all I can do is depend upon your honesty.
(*SIGH*)
There’s nothing “absurd” about my claims. I’ve outlined my personal experience – mine, friends, family… if you wanna believe that insured middle class Americans typically face the sort of appointment/treatment delays you folks in Canada and the UK do… (*SHRUG*)… your prerogative. I’m telling you though… we don’t.
Can you find Americans who will give you horror stories – legitimate horror stories? Sure. No doubt. But I’m talking about my typical experience for the perspective of a 47 year old insured middle class American.
“Especially when you then proceed to be completely incapable of providing any hard data to back that up.”
Not “incapable.” I’m sure I could easily find and post all sorts of stats regarding waiting times and specific disease outcome stats. I’m not going to though. Two reasons: 1) I and various other posting provide links to such stats fairly frequently – no need to reiterate the same facts thread after thread after thread; 2) What “hard stats” would possible “verify” my own experiences in your mind? Again… I’m telling you what I’ve experienced. If you don’t believe it that’s your business. Frankly, Gco, I don’t give a damn. (*WINK*) (That’s from a famous American novel/movie… “Gone With The Wind”… perhaps you’ve heard of it?) (*CHUCKLE*)
“…I would need to have suffered some moderately serious neurological trauma…”
And if you ever do… pray God it occurs in California. (Or some other U.S. state.) (*WINK*)
BILL
tharock220 // Aug 20, 2009 at 8:11 pm
What seems lost on Canadians is that their health care industry isn’t better than America’s when the Americans can afford it. Knock off those 50 million uninsured and you see better preventative care, longer life expectancy, and more timely treatment to major conditions than in Canada.
Anyone who argues health care in America isn’t by far the best in the entire world is lying to themselves. It’s just that simple.
gcomeau // Aug 20, 2009 at 8:11 pm
barker: Don’t be a jackass. I live in California because I was made a very nice job offer there and like the company I’m at… so I stay. That doesn’t mean I like the health care system here.
And yes, I am a “poster on an internet site”. And this is a multi-city survey of patient wait times to access specialist care in the United States:
http://www.merritthawkins.com/pdf/mha2009waittimesurvey.pdf
Show me the tables with nothing but zeros in the wait times column if you don’t mind.
And then try to comprehend that that is only how long people WHO COULD SEE THOSE SPECIALISTS AT ALL had to wait. It doesn’t count people who are effectively **indefinitely** wait listed by being priced out of the system in the US. You do understand that right?
EVERYONE can afford to see a specialist in Canada when they need to. The average wait time there is the REAL average wait time for the REAL average Canadian. The numbers in the US just pretend large segments of the American population that don’t have proper access to the system don’t exist.
Is this becoming any clearer for you yet?
Del // Aug 20, 2009 at 9:38 pm
First off “Fact Checker,” I never said I was a conservative. I have been away in Europe for most of the debate over health care, and after witnessing the near hysteria in some circles about Osama’s health reforms during my brief stay in the U.S. recently, was simply surfing the net to inform myself … particularly about the distortions being promoted about the Canadian system.
There appears to be a very deliberate campaign of misinformation about socialized (dare I even use the word on this site) medicine that is being spread by conservatives, who for the sake of ideology seem quite willing to distort, manipulate and lie.
But the underling issue here is not about health care. It is the entire conservative agenda. The recent near economic collapse is at least partially a result of the “deregulation is best” mentality of this agenda. And now, due to government intervention, the economy seems to be recovering under Obama’s guidance. If he is successful in implementing an effective, universal system of health care in the U.S., conservatives are likely to be shut out of power for a very long time. Government health care plans, once implemented in a country, become as institutionalised as state run education. It is seen as much as a right as is the right to a free basic education. In no country has a government health care plan ever been reversed. Conservatives know this, and that is why they are fighting so hard to sabotage effective health care reform.
Though I have no doubt about your ideological sincerity, “Fact Checker,” I believe what the conservative power brokers most want is not to defeat an Obama health care plan. But to weaken it in such away as to make it ineffective and a possible election issue. Either way they win. Obama doesn’t deliver on his promise or the plan is so lame it proves problematic.
“You said: If the government-run insurance plan were adopted whereby non-insured people would be insured, how long would private companies continue to contribute to the health insurance of their employees? Would they not start cutting health plans and force the government to pay? You know the answer as well as I do.”
Yes, I do know the answer. You are absolutely right. That is why a modified version of the Canadian system would work best. Private insurance should only be for secondary coverage, for those aspects of medical care that are not covered by the government system. Employers should not pay for employee health insurance. In Quebec, where I reside, health care is primarily paid for by income tax. As far as choice: Doctors can opt out of the system and go private. Few do. And, patients can go to any doctor they choose, any hospital, go for as many opinions as they want.
What mystifies me is how the richest, most powerful country in the world doesn’t provide universal health coverage for its citizens. Given the amount of GDP spent on health care, the success of universal plans elsewhere, what exactly is your concern? The truth is, political expediency aside, that there is really only one basic issue in this debate. Is decent, health care a right or is it a commodity, with some being able to buy the very best care possible, and others receiving almost third world standards of health care.
And Barker, yes I injured my finger. It might sound trivial to you, though it sounds more like you’ve been watching too much FOX “news.” You jump to conclusions without knowing any of the facts. Regardless, I personally didn’t find paying $250 for 3 minutes of a doctor’s time in Philadelphia very trivial.
chgok9dad // Aug 21, 2009 at 9:25 am
To Barker13 who snorts a lot. Yes, I still contend that I got the best medical care while in Canada-ever. Two major events in my life there. (1) Hiking accident where I fell and landed on my back. The x-rays, physical therapy, medication, and care was quick, responsive, and all covered. (2) Diagnosed with leukemia, and went into chemotherapy, and have been in remission for 20 years. Thanks for asking.
barker13 // Aug 21, 2009 at 10:31 am
Re: Tharock220 // Aug 20, 2009 at 8:11 pm (#35) –
Yep. (*SMILE*)
Re: Gcomeau // Aug 20, 2009 at 8:11 pm (#36) –
“barker: Don’t be a jackass.”
Who the f–k do you think you’re talking to, you little worm?!
Jeezus… do you really think you’re MAKING your case?
(*SMIRK*)
You’re now in “time out.” Call it “Strike One.” I’ll give you another chance on Monday; till then… you’re “boxed” along with Otto.
Re: Del // Aug 20, 2009 at 9:38 pm (#37) –
“…the “deregulation is best” mentality…”
Perhaps you’ve heard of Fannie Mae. (*CHUCKLE*) How’bout Freddie Mac? Ginny Mae?
Ya know much about the short/mid/long term prospects of Medicaid/Medicare/Social Security…???
Would you consider taxation “regulation?” Do you consider the U.S. Tax code (and the 50 state tax codes) to be examples of… er… under-regulation?
The federal judiciary and 50 state judiciaries…??? You don’t see them as “regulatory bodies” in a sense? (*SHRUG*)
“…conservative power brokers…”
You might wanna re-check the ideological/Party affiliation of America’s top oligarchs. (*WINK*) (*CHUCKLE*)
Oh… and as far as GOVERNMENT itself is concerned (the defacto Power Broker of power brokers)… last time I checked there was this guy name Obama hanging out in the Oval Office and this chick Pelosi (with sidekick Harry Reid) presiding over Capital Hill.
(*SHRUG*)
“What mystifies me is how the richest…”
Depend how you define rich, doesn’t it? Unsustainable deficits… unsupportable long term debt and unfunded future liabilities as far as the eye can see…
(*SHRUG*)
“And Barker, yes I injured my finger. It might sound trivial to you…”
Yes. (*SMIRK*) It sounds trivial to me. Glad we’re on the same page.
Re: Chgok9dad // Aug 21, 2009 at 9:25 am (#38) –
“To Barker13 who snorts a lot.”
(*ROFLMAO*)
(*HIGH FIVE*)
Well at least you have a frigg’n sense of humor, Chgok! Good for you…!!!
“Hiking accident where I fell and landed on my back. The x-rays, physical therapy, medication, and care was quick, responsive, and all covered.”
Glad to hear Canada has enough X-Ray machines! (*WINK*)
“Diagnosed with leukemia, and went into chemotherapy, and have been in remission for 20 years.”
Now THAT’S what I’m talking about, Chgok! And I’m happy that you were diagnosed and treated in a timely manner and have been in remission for 20 years. I hope you’ve beat it for good.
Still… I’m talking stats as well as personal anecdotes; and the stats don’t lie. Middle class insured Americans are far more likely to overcome potentially fatal illnesses than our Canadian peers.
BILL
gcomeau // Aug 21, 2009 at 10:57 am
barker: Who I think I’m talking to is someone spewing totally unsupported nonsense with every single post he makes… and someone who just got called on it and is now acting all indignant and offended so he can proceed to **ignore the wait time survey** that just nailed him and his ridiculous “Americans don’t wait for care” fairy tale to the wall.
That’s who I think I’m talking to. But I’m devastated I’m now on “time-out”. I really am. So you just go about your business pretending like Americans don’t wait for care and you’ve contributed anything useful or meaningful to this discussion and I’ll keep posting real life facts and figures so you can ignore those too. Like you just did saying YOU are talking about stats and stats don’t lie. That’s rich. You haven’t provided a single statistic in any post you’ve made in this entire thread. The only two times I even saw you mention statistics were, in fsct, when you said this:
“I’m sure I could easily find and post all sorts of stats regarding waiting times and specific disease outcome stats. I’m not going to though.”
And when you said this:
“And no, I’m not going to go nuts posting this stat and that stat.”
Both REFUSALS to go look up statistics to support your argument. And then you have the nerve to say YOU are “talking stats” and the stats don’t lie? Do you think every single person you’re speaking to here suffers from total long term memory loss and can’t remember anything you did more than an hour earlier so they’ll actually believe that? AND that they CAN’T READ so they won’t just look up and see? What the hell are you even thinking? Is this some kind of poorly thought out joke or something?
The only time you’ve even come NEAR posting ans stats are when you were MAKING THEM UP about Americans having no wait times for medical care… and the one you just made up now about “middle class insured Americans” being “far more likely” to overcome potentially fatal illnesses. And IMAGINARY stats actually do lie barker.
Real ones on the other hand:
http://www.openmedicine.ca/article/view/8/1
Those show you’re lying (or just monumentally clueless, take your pick). THAT is a systematic review of DOZENS of scientific studies of the comparative outcome of treatment in Canada and the US for everything from cancer, to coronary artery disease, to chronic illnesses to surgical procedures. Canada comes out on top in the clear majority of them.
Quick! Make something else up to save your case!
Rodak // Aug 21, 2009 at 11:56 am
Still up to your old tricks, eh Bill?
barker13 // Aug 21, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Re: Rodak // Aug 21, 2009 at 11:56 am ($41) –
(*GRIN*)
BTW, can’t that halfwit READ?
I couldn’t help but notice the first word of his Post #40 was “Barker.” Doesn’t he know what “time out” means? (*CHUCKLE*)
Anyway, Rob, off to New Hampshire for the weekend. Out of here by 4:00 p.m. In the meantime if you have any points you’d like to make…
(*SMILE*) (*SHRUG*)
BILL
gcomeau // Aug 21, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Like I said…
“So you just go about your business pretending like Americans don’t wait for care and you’ve contributed anything useful or meaningful to this discussion and I’ll keep posting real life facts and figures so you can ignore those too. ”
Glad to see we’re on the same page. If it makes you feel better to pretend the reason you’re refusing to deal with any of the information this “half wit” is posting is because you’re just so emotionally devastated that “some poster on an internet site” told you to stop being a jackass that you couldn’t possibly interact with them any further until you’ve had several days to heal from the severe psychological trauma that inflicted, you go right ahead. You’re not exactly fooling anyone, but whatever you want to do.
What I want to do on the other hand is keep posting real life information. Like, oh, the US ranking (dead last) in the prevention of health care amenable mortality among industrialized nations… that’s a fun one:
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Charts/Testimony/Insurance-Design-Matters-Underinsured-Trends-Health-and-Financial-Risks-and-Principles-for-Reform/Mortality-Amenable-to-Health-Care.aspx
Or the rate of growth of health care costs in nations around the world:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/09/business/econgraphic2.jpg
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/09/business/econgraphic3.jpg
Still want to keep telling us all about how the US health care system is the greatest? All ears. Really.
Oh wait… I forgot. You called “time out” so nothing I’m posting counts… darn. If only I had thought of that first.
liv&win // Aug 21, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Bill have you noticed the same thing about these posts that I have? Have a good weekend!
barker13 // Aug 24, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Re: Liv&Win // Aug 21, 2009 at 4:23 pm (#44)
Yep. (*SMILE*)
Plus, thread after thread on the same basic topic.
I’m starting to get bored here. (*SHRUG*)
BILL
TAKEbackMEDICINE.org » Blog Archive » Take It from a Canadian: You Don’t Want the Public Option // Aug 27, 2009 at 2:34 am
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