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	<title>Comments on: Rubio: The Beltway Candidate</title>
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	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: WillyP</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/rubio-the-beltway-candidate/comment-page-1#comment-72543</link>
		<dc:creator>WillyP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15942#comment-72543</guid>
		<description>hormelmeatco , &quot;intrinsic value&quot; is nonsense.  Value is projected subjectively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hormelmeatco , &#8220;intrinsic value&#8221; is nonsense.  Value is projected subjectively.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/rubio-the-beltway-candidate/comment-page-1#comment-72464</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 04:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15942#comment-72464</guid>
		<description>Reason60: &lt;blockquote&gt; Where? Where is this unfettered, truly laissez-faire capitalism so that we may study it in person? Where has it been tried and found to produce liberty and prosperity? &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Hong Kong comes closest.  

Hong Kong has the freest economy in the world--as close to laissez-faire capitalism as there is today.  The government policy is generally to keep hands off the economy, unless the externalities of the market are worse than the externalities of government intervention--just as Milton Friedman had suggested.  And that doesn&#039;t happen often.

And Hong Kong has done very well economically.  In 30 years, its GDP grew by 8,000%.

But it&#039;s got social problems.  There are extremes of inequality between rich and poor, comparable to China&#039;s.  And Hong Kong still lacks universal suffrage; businesses oppose it because they fear that universal suffrage would lead to populism--and then to socialism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reason60:  Where? Where is this unfettered, truly laissez-faire capitalism so that we may study it in person? Where has it been tried and found to produce liberty and prosperity?<br />
Hong Kong comes closest.  </p>
<p>Hong Kong has the freest economy in the world&#8211;as close to laissez-faire capitalism as there is today.  The government policy is generally to keep hands off the economy, unless the externalities of the market are worse than the externalities of government intervention&#8211;just as Milton Friedman had suggested.  And that doesn&#8217;t happen often.</p>
<p>And Hong Kong has done very well economically.  In 30 years, its GDP grew by 8,000%.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s got social problems.  There are extremes of inequality between rich and poor, comparable to China&#8217;s.  And Hong Kong still lacks universal suffrage; businesses oppose it because they fear that universal suffrage would lead to populism&#8211;and then to socialism.</p>
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		<title>By: hormelmeatco</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/rubio-the-beltway-candidate/comment-page-1#comment-72460</link>
		<dc:creator>hormelmeatco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>WillyP:

Gold is just as specious as money. Neither have any intrinsic value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WillyP:</p>
<p>Gold is just as specious as money. Neither have any intrinsic value.</p>
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		<title>By: Rel</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/rubio-the-beltway-candidate/comment-page-1#comment-72459</link>
		<dc:creator>Rel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15942#comment-72459</guid>
		<description>Tim (and David), this dog don&#039;t hunt. Please do some simple math:

Rubio: 22% of $341,724 = $75,179

Crist: 13% of $591,119 = $76,845

In other words, using the figures you provide, Rubio and Crist have raised almost exactly THE SAME amount of money from DC sources. If anything, Crist has raised a little more. There is no way you can honestly write that &quot;Rubio has been the clear winner of the Washington money primary&quot;. 

It&#039;s technically ok, I guess, to write that Rubio has &quot;relied more heavily&quot; on DC money, since his percentage is higher. But this is a misleading argument. You shouldn&#039;t stoop so low.

At best, this is an embarrassing error. I hope you fix it ASAP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim (and David), this dog don&#8217;t hunt. Please do some simple math:</p>
<p>Rubio: 22% of $341,724 = $75,179</p>
<p>Crist: 13% of $591,119 = $76,845</p>
<p>In other words, using the figures you provide, Rubio and Crist have raised almost exactly THE SAME amount of money from DC sources. If anything, Crist has raised a little more. There is no way you can honestly write that &#8220;Rubio has been the clear winner of the Washington money primary&#8221;. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s technically ok, I guess, to write that Rubio has &#8220;relied more heavily&#8221; on DC money, since his percentage is higher. But this is a misleading argument. You shouldn&#8217;t stoop so low.</p>
<p>At best, this is an embarrassing error. I hope you fix it ASAP.</p>
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		<title>By: Rocketship7</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/rubio-the-beltway-candidate/comment-page-1#comment-72451</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocketship7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15942#comment-72451</guid>
		<description>David:

Its not a bloodbath like NY23.
You are being hyperbolic.
THIS IS A PRIMARY!  NY23 never had one. 
Obama got elected over Hillery with a &quot;bloodbath&quot; as you would describe. 

Let democracy take its course and get behind whoever wins the Florida primary.
That includes you David. Peter Worthington would agree, I am sure.
Richmond Hill ON</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David:</p>
<p>Its not a bloodbath like NY23.<br />
You are being hyperbolic.<br />
THIS IS A PRIMARY!  NY23 never had one.<br />
Obama got elected over Hillery with a &#8220;bloodbath&#8221; as you would describe. </p>
<p>Let democracy take its course and get behind whoever wins the Florida primary.<br />
That includes you David. Peter Worthington would agree, I am sure.<br />
Richmond Hill ON</p>
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		<title>By: tallkewl</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/rubio-the-beltway-candidate/comment-page-1#comment-72450</link>
		<dc:creator>tallkewl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15942#comment-72450</guid>
		<description>New Flash from FLORIDA! Marco Rubio has the support of grass roots Republicans who have been coming out in droves to hear him. His average campaign contribution is only $64 and overall most of his support is from within Florida. Real Floridians. Real Voters. How many straw polls has Crist won? ZERO! When will Crist debate Rubio on the ISSUES that voters care about? Probably never if Crist has his way! Sorry, we don&#039;t want an Obama-huggin&#039; RINO to represent us in the Senate. Yes, lately Rubio has gotten some recognition from the Beltway crowd, but it because of th estrong support he enjoys with Florida&#039;s Republicans! Point in fact: Marco was running BEFORE Crist smelled an EZ opportunity  to leap frog to DC. Our state is suffering under the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression- so what kind of leadership do we get from our Governor? Make tough budget choices and stay at the helm in Tallahassee? No, get Obama to bail him out, then run for Senate. Crist claims to be a leader, but his blind ambition comes before real Floridians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>New Flash from FLORIDA! Marco Rubio has the support of grass roots Republicans who have been coming out in droves to hear him. His average campaign contribution is only $64 and overall most of his support is from within Florida. Real Floridians. Real Voters. How many straw polls has Crist won? ZERO! When will Crist debate Rubio on the ISSUES that voters care about? Probably never if Crist has his way! Sorry, we don&#8217;t want an Obama-huggin&#8217; RINO to represent us in the Senate. Yes, lately Rubio has gotten some recognition from the Beltway crowd, but it because of th estrong support he enjoys with Florida&#8217;s Republicans! Point in fact: Marco was running BEFORE Crist smelled an EZ opportunity  to leap frog to DC. Our state is suffering under the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression- so what kind of leadership do we get from our Governor? Make tough budget choices and stay at the helm in Tallahassee? No, get Obama to bail him out, then run for Senate. Crist claims to be a leader, but his blind ambition comes before real Floridians.</p>
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		<title>By: Reason60</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/rubio-the-beltway-candidate/comment-page-1#comment-72448</link>
		<dc:creator>Reason60</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15942#comment-72448</guid>
		<description>sinz: &quot;Crist is wobbling, as he’s caught between the practical needs of keeping Florida running versus the demands of conservatives that he stop doing that.&quot;
WillyP: &quot;sinz, you’d do well to read some F.A. Hayek before brazenly making further ignorant comments&quot;

Back in the days when I was a Republican, and some socialist wuld wax rhapsodic about how &quot;if we only had socialism, so and so would not happen...&quot;
and I would always bring them up short with, &quot;but where in the world has this abstract theory been put into practice, and found to work? I would like to study it.&#039;

Of course, the answer was always a mixture of &quot;well, it hasn&#039;t yet, but a study by esteemed economist so and so indicates....&quot;

So today we have people invoking Hayek, and Friedman, all postulating that &quot;if we only had truly free market capitalism, there would be no recessions...&quot;

Where? Where is this unfettered, truly laissez-faire capitalism so that we may study it in person? Where has it been tried and found to produce liberty and prosperity? Aside from Somalia, I mean.

So far as I know, there is not a single First World industrialized nation that does not have a market system balanced by a social welfare system to assist during the recurring crashes.

Didn&#039;t conservatives used to be the champions of cold empirical evidence, rather than dreamy philosophy? Didn&#039;t we used to mock and ridicule those whose answer to the practical problems of governance always seemed to be a quotation of abstract philosophy?

This, in a nutshell, typifies the transformation of conservative thought from a well-reasoned skepticism of government overreach to a blind cultish faith in the utopian perfection of The Marketplace (pause and genuflect).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sinz: &#8220;Crist is wobbling, as he’s caught between the practical needs of keeping Florida running versus the demands of conservatives that he stop doing that.&#8221;<br />
WillyP: &#8220;sinz, you’d do well to read some F.A. Hayek before brazenly making further ignorant comments&#8221;</p>
<p>Back in the days when I was a Republican, and some socialist wuld wax rhapsodic about how &#8220;if we only had socialism, so and so would not happen&#8230;&#8221;<br />
and I would always bring them up short with, &#8220;but where in the world has this abstract theory been put into practice, and found to work? I would like to study it.&#8217;</p>
<p>Of course, the answer was always a mixture of &#8220;well, it hasn&#8217;t yet, but a study by esteemed economist so and so indicates&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>So today we have people invoking Hayek, and Friedman, all postulating that &#8220;if we only had truly free market capitalism, there would be no recessions&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Where? Where is this unfettered, truly laissez-faire capitalism so that we may study it in person? Where has it been tried and found to produce liberty and prosperity? Aside from Somalia, I mean.</p>
<p>So far as I know, there is not a single First World industrialized nation that does not have a market system balanced by a social welfare system to assist during the recurring crashes.</p>
<p>Didn&#8217;t conservatives used to be the champions of cold empirical evidence, rather than dreamy philosophy? Didn&#8217;t we used to mock and ridicule those whose answer to the practical problems of governance always seemed to be a quotation of abstract philosophy?</p>
<p>This, in a nutshell, typifies the transformation of conservative thought from a well-reasoned skepticism of government overreach to a blind cultish faith in the utopian perfection of The Marketplace (pause and genuflect).</p>
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		<title>By: Toddtheconservative</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/rubio-the-beltway-candidate/comment-page-1#comment-72441</link>
		<dc:creator>Toddtheconservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I just want the adults to come back.

http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/11/bring-back-george-bush-karl-rove/

Charlie Crist has been outed in a movie called &quot;outrage&quot; on HBO

http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/10/charlie-crist-and-the-film-outrage/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want the adults to come back.</p>
<p><a href="http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/11/bring-back-george-bush-karl-rove/" rel="nofollow">http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/11/bring-back-george-bush-karl-rove/</a></p>
<p>Charlie Crist has been outed in a movie called &#8220;outrage&#8221; on HBO</p>
<p><a href="http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/10/charlie-crist-and-the-film-outrage/" rel="nofollow">http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/10/charlie-crist-and-the-film-outrage/</a></p>
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		<title>By: WillyP</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/rubio-the-beltway-candidate/comment-page-1#comment-72431</link>
		<dc:creator>WillyP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15942#comment-72431</guid>
		<description>sinz:
&quot;Well, sorry. We had the Civil War. And then we did exactly the wrong thing by drastically decreasing the money supply to chase the chimera of the gold standard. We didn’t do that after World War II, and America had an economic boom instead of a depression.&quot;

I can&#039;t say you&#039;re wrong about fiat money being used to fund wars.   A relevant question would be: do you think America should always be on &quot;war footing?&quot;  I don&#039;t.

Hmm, why did we experience boom after one war and bust after the other?  Could it be that a civil war, you know, involves domestic destruction?  What do you think happens when you run around with cannons and guns, torching everything in sight?  You certainly don&#039;t have an economic boom.

After WWII meanwhile, most of our international competition had been reduced to rubble.  And the return the male workforce was also, unsurprisingly, a reason for growth.

Money serves as a medium of exchange, and nothing else.  Gold works well because it cannot be &quot;printed.&quot;  (False) economic boom is caused by credit inflation because price information is distorted, leading to a consumption in capital.  

hormelmeatco: Yes, I do.  See Fractional Reserve Banking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sinz:<br />
&#8220;Well, sorry. We had the Civil War. And then we did exactly the wrong thing by drastically decreasing the money supply to chase the chimera of the gold standard. We didn’t do that after World War II, and America had an economic boom instead of a depression.&#8221;</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t say you&#8217;re wrong about fiat money being used to fund wars.   A relevant question would be: do you think America should always be on &#8220;war footing?&#8221;  I don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Hmm, why did we experience boom after one war and bust after the other?  Could it be that a civil war, you know, involves domestic destruction?  What do you think happens when you run around with cannons and guns, torching everything in sight?  You certainly don&#8217;t have an economic boom.</p>
<p>After WWII meanwhile, most of our international competition had been reduced to rubble.  And the return the male workforce was also, unsurprisingly, a reason for growth.</p>
<p>Money serves as a medium of exchange, and nothing else.  Gold works well because it cannot be &#8220;printed.&#8221;  (False) economic boom is caused by credit inflation because price information is distorted, leading to a consumption in capital.  </p>
<p>hormelmeatco: Yes, I do.  See Fractional Reserve Banking.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/rubio-the-beltway-candidate/comment-page-1#comment-72424</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15942#comment-72424</guid>
		<description>WillyP: 

When I said, &quot;Read a history book,&quot; I was NOT referring to the Depression of the 1930s.

I was referring to the Depression of the 1870s.
Back then, there was no Federal Reserve, no welfare state, no income tax.  America should have been an economic powerhouse according to men like Hayek.  But instead, we got a major depression.

That depression was caused by the drastic cuts in the money supply, needed to put America back on the gold standard after the Civil War ended.  Going back on the gold standard was something Hayek would have approved of. So would Ron Paul.  So would you, probably.

But the supply of fiat money had expanded enormously during the Civil War to enable the North to buy the things needed to beat the South.  Now all that money had to be taken out of circulation to get back on the gold standard.  And the result was a major depression that lasted an entire decade.

In your world, there shouldn&#039;t be any major government interventions in the economy. But that means there can&#039;t be any wars--since putting a nation&#039;s economy on a war footing represents a major government intervention.  

Well, sorry.  We had the Civil War.  And then we did exactly the wrong thing by drastically decreasing the money supply to chase the chimera of the gold standard.  We didn&#039;t do that after World War II, and America had an economic boom instead of a depression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WillyP: </p>
<p>When I said, &#8220;Read a history book,&#8221; I was NOT referring to the Depression of the 1930s.</p>
<p>I was referring to the Depression of the 1870s.<br />
Back then, there was no Federal Reserve, no welfare state, no income tax.  America should have been an economic powerhouse according to men like Hayek.  But instead, we got a major depression.</p>
<p>That depression was caused by the drastic cuts in the money supply, needed to put America back on the gold standard after the Civil War ended.  Going back on the gold standard was something Hayek would have approved of. So would Ron Paul.  So would you, probably.</p>
<p>But the supply of fiat money had expanded enormously during the Civil War to enable the North to buy the things needed to beat the South.  Now all that money had to be taken out of circulation to get back on the gold standard.  And the result was a major depression that lasted an entire decade.</p>
<p>In your world, there shouldn&#8217;t be any major government interventions in the economy. But that means there can&#8217;t be any wars&#8211;since putting a nation&#8217;s economy on a war footing represents a major government intervention.  </p>
<p>Well, sorry.  We had the Civil War.  And then we did exactly the wrong thing by drastically decreasing the money supply to chase the chimera of the gold standard.  We didn&#8217;t do that after World War II, and America had an economic boom instead of a depression.</p>
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