Comments on: Round Two: Yes I *Get It* — But Glendon Is Still Wrong http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:44:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: jgilesphx http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-39818 jgilesphx Tue, 05 May 2009 22:53:57 +0000 #comment-39818 BigM,<br><br>Dominance of the abortion issue? The one that kills -- legally -- over 1 million per year? Not a secondary effect, and without due process -- just killed. <br><br>Again, Catholic teaching on war, the death penalty, and abortion is different. BigM,

Dominance of the abortion issue? The one that kills — legally — over 1 million per year? Not a secondary effect, and without due process — just killed.

Again, Catholic teaching on war, the death penalty, and abortion is different.

]]> By: BigM http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-46656 BigM Sun, 03 May 2009 00:14:31 +0000 #comment-46656 I am not a Catholic, but I must say, I'm bemused by what seems to be, for some Catholics, the utter dominance of this ONE issue. Would a Catholic scholar refuse to participate in an occasion honoring a president who approved of the death penalty? The war in Iraq? Why not?<br><br>Those who compare honoring Obama with honoring Arafat prove Ms. Crittenden's point for her. To them, then, the President of the United States is basically no different than a murderous terrorist. Well, that's one opinion, I guess, and certainly not an opinion different from the left's judgment of George W. Bush. But if you're really prepared to judge any president in favor of liberal abortion laws as no worse than a terrorist, then you better be prepared to be marginalized - to be considered part of the fringe. I am not a Catholic, but I must say, I’m bemused by what seems to be, for some Catholics, the utter dominance of this ONE issue. Would a Catholic scholar refuse to participate in an occasion honoring a president who approved of the death penalty? The war in Iraq? Why not?

Those who compare honoring Obama with honoring Arafat prove Ms. Crittenden’s point for her. To them, then, the President of the United States is basically no different than a murderous terrorist. Well, that’s one opinion, I guess, and certainly not an opinion different from the left’s judgment of George W. Bush. But if you’re really prepared to judge any president in favor of liberal abortion laws as no worse than a terrorist, then you better be prepared to be marginalized – to be considered part of the fringe.

]]> By: JC720 http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-50342 JC720 Sat, 02 May 2009 18:13:26 +0000 #comment-50342 Ms Crittenden,<br>Having read and re-read Mary Ann Glendon's letter, I find I must first of all disagree with your interpretation of her words, specifically where you state "Glendons words suggest that Obama may be president but he is not HER President, or the Catholics president a highly divisive and anti-democratic sentiment."<br>I cannot find anything in her letter that supports such an interpretation. She disagrees with his position on abortion and agrees with the position of the U.S. Bishops. You think she is "dissing" him by stating that he is "prominent" (is he not?) and "an uncompromising opponent of the Church's position..." (again..is he not?)<br>How does not agreeing with the president translate into believing he is not her president or the president of Catholics?<br>Secondly, you state that in declining the award and the invitation to accept it, Glendon is "disengaging."<br>I also disagree with that. She chooses not to politicize a commencement because it is not the right venue for YOUR version of engagement. However, by declining she shows leadership in affirming her support and obedience to the U.S. Bishops and refuses to compromise her beliefs that their position should be honored, especially by Catholic institutions such as Notre Dame.<br>Refusal to compromise your beliefs, especially if it may cause you personal loss, and a willingness to publicly state those reasons and take the flak from people such as yourself IS engagement, Ms. Crittenden. The most powerful kind of engagement--that of example over words.<br>I applaud what you term her "disengagement," because to me her actions speak more powerfully than any words she may have spoken at a podium.<br>My conclusion is that she's not wrong...you are. Ms Crittenden,
Having read and re-read Mary Ann Glendon’s letter, I find I must first of all disagree with your interpretation of her words, specifically where you state “Glendons words suggest that Obama may be president but he is not HER President, or the Catholics president a highly divisive and anti-democratic sentiment.”
I cannot find anything in her letter that supports such an interpretation. She disagrees with his position on abortion and agrees with the position of the U.S. Bishops. You think she is “dissing” him by stating that he is “prominent” (is he not?) and “an uncompromising opponent of the Church’s position…” (again..is he not?)
How does not agreeing with the president translate into believing he is not her president or the president of Catholics?
Secondly, you state that in declining the award and the invitation to accept it, Glendon is “disengaging.”
I also disagree with that. She chooses not to politicize a commencement because it is not the right venue for YOUR version of engagement. However, by declining she shows leadership in affirming her support and obedience to the U.S. Bishops and refuses to compromise her beliefs that their position should be honored, especially by Catholic institutions such as Notre Dame.
Refusal to compromise your beliefs, especially if it may cause you personal loss, and a willingness to publicly state those reasons and take the flak from people such as yourself IS engagement, Ms. Crittenden. The most powerful kind of engagement–that of example over words.
I applaud what you term her “disengagement,” because to me her actions speak more powerfully than any words she may have spoken at a podium.
My conclusion is that she’s not wrong…you are.

]]> By: darleenclick http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-54592 darleenclick Sat, 02 May 2009 14:52:55 +0000 #comment-54592 midcon<br><br>I'm a reluctant pro-choicer but I have to say you are being morally obtuse to suggest there is any kind of equivalency between abortion and capital punishment. Do you really think that nascent (and innocent) human life is the same as a convicted mass-murderer?<br><br>Those so-called "conservatives" that desperately want to be Democrat-lite in order to "win elections" (won't happen) have allowed the Left to frame every debate. Glendon won't allow Notre Dame to use her as a beard just as Andrew McCarthy turned down the White House to be a prop on a so-called "Roundtable on Terrorism". <br><br>President Obama is my President and I don't dispute his election or legitimacy (and it is a particularly Leftist-style tactic to tar those opposed to Obama's policies with the tiny, insignificant nutz who are obsessing about his birth certificate). But that doesn't mean I cannot oppose his Hugo Chavez-style attempts at shoving statism down our throats. midcon

I’m a reluctant pro-choicer but I have to say you are being morally obtuse to suggest there is any kind of equivalency between abortion and capital punishment. Do you really think that nascent (and innocent) human life is the same as a convicted mass-murderer?

Those so-called “conservatives” that desperately want to be Democrat-lite in order to “win elections” (won’t happen) have allowed the Left to frame every debate. Glendon won’t allow Notre Dame to use her as a beard just as Andrew McCarthy turned down the White House to be a prop on a so-called “Roundtable on Terrorism”.

President Obama is my President and I don’t dispute his election or legitimacy (and it is a particularly Leftist-style tactic to tar those opposed to Obama’s policies with the tiny, insignificant nutz who are obsessing about his birth certificate). But that doesn’t mean I cannot oppose his Hugo Chavez-style attempts at shoving statism down our throats.

]]> By: jgilesphx http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-52783 jgilesphx Sat, 02 May 2009 14:35:23 +0000 #comment-52783 A few flaws, in my opinion:<br><br>1. If you want to compare the reaction to the Obama invite and the invite to GWB, then compare Catholic teaching on abortion and the death penalty. My non-Catholic friends tend to treat Catholic social teaching like fantasy baseball. There is difference on these issues. (In addition, in this instance, the President assumed office and immediately enacted several anti-life measures, including his duplicitous and deceptive statement on embryonic stem cells.)<br><br>2. Additionally, I've seen many non-Catholics basically appropriate this very Catholic issue for their own purposes. I know this isn't meant maliciously. But politics has to take a back seat at times. Glendon should respond in a way that is consistent politically? Wrong. The higher allegiance is to Catholic teaching, and not to the current whims of the political class.<br><br>3. See the 2004 USCCB document, "Catholics in Political Life." To quote: "The Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions. "<br><br>Again, Prof. Glendon was forced into the position of remaining silent as a Catholic university award the most anti-life politician in our history, or of frontally assaulting his views. If the event were to be a debate or panel, I have no doubt she would have participated. But as she stated clearly, the event was intended to honor the graduates.<br><br>Not everything is a political moment. A few flaws, in my opinion:

1. If you want to compare the reaction to the Obama invite and the invite to GWB, then compare Catholic teaching on abortion and the death penalty. My non-Catholic friends tend to treat Catholic social teaching like fantasy baseball. There is difference on these issues. (In addition, in this instance, the President assumed office and immediately enacted several anti-life measures, including his duplicitous and deceptive statement on embryonic stem cells.)

2. Additionally, I’ve seen many non-Catholics basically appropriate this very Catholic issue for their own purposes. I know this isn’t meant maliciously. But politics has to take a back seat at times. Glendon should respond in a way that is consistent politically? Wrong. The higher allegiance is to Catholic teaching, and not to the current whims of the political class.

3. See the 2004 USCCB document, “Catholics in Political Life.” To quote: “The Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions. “

Again, Prof. Glendon was forced into the position of remaining silent as a Catholic university award the most anti-life politician in our history, or of frontally assaulting his views. If the event were to be a debate or panel, I have no doubt she would have participated. But as she stated clearly, the event was intended to honor the graduates.

Not everything is a political moment.

]]> By: ktward http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-55301 ktward Fri, 01 May 2009 16:55:17 +0000 #comment-55301 midcon:<br><br>You illustrate nicely the contradictions Social Conservatives find themselves defending. Unsuccessfully.<br><br>That said, there are Christian orgs which take a less myopic 'Womb to Tomb' position: www.sojo.net is a good place to start. midcon:

You illustrate nicely the contradictions Social Conservatives find themselves defending. Unsuccessfully.

That said, there are Christian orgs which take a less myopic ‘Womb to Tomb’ position: http://www.sojo.net is a good place to start.

]]> By: midcon http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-50301 midcon Fri, 01 May 2009 16:14:33 +0000 #comment-50301 I find it extremely interesting (I used to find it annoying, but I got over that), that those against abortion, have no qualms about capital punishment or war or other justifiable taking of lives. Imagine, if you will, the same situation but replacing "abortion" with "execution." Would the conversation be the same? Would Glendon's response be the same? The Catholic Church is at least consistent in their stance on both abortion and execution. I often wonder what the acceptable modifiers are to "Thou shalt not kill" and who decides what the exceptions are? I find it extremely interesting (I used to find it annoying, but I got over that), that those against abortion, have no qualms about capital punishment or war or other justifiable taking of lives. Imagine, if you will, the same situation but replacing “abortion” with “execution.” Would the conversation be the same? Would Glendon’s response be the same? The Catholic Church is at least consistent in their stance on both abortion and execution. I often wonder what the acceptable modifiers are to “Thou shalt not kill” and who decides what the exceptions are?

]]> By: ktward http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-48708 ktward Fri, 01 May 2009 15:38:51 +0000 #comment-48708 Churl:<br><br>You've a legitimate point, except that it's likely true that many big 'C' commenters here are not Social Conservatives.<br><br>Case in point: you're unwittingly allying yourself to commenters such as PiltdownMan, who disturbingly believes:<br><br>"The reason the divorce rate in this country is so high is that woman have all turned into insufferable busy-bodies with no concept of boundaries whatsoever."<br><br>Social Conservatism is a slippery slope and often at odds with the aims of Fiscal/Small Gov Conservatives.<br><br>It is this self-destructive ideological split within the Republican Party that continues to marginalize it. Churl:

You’ve a legitimate point, except that it’s likely true that many big ‘C’ commenters here are not Social Conservatives.

Case in point: you’re unwittingly allying yourself to commenters such as PiltdownMan, who disturbingly believes:

“The reason the divorce rate in this country is so high is that woman have all turned into insufferable busy-bodies with no concept of boundaries whatsoever.”

Social Conservatism is a slippery slope and often at odds with the aims of Fiscal/Small Gov Conservatives.

It is this self-destructive ideological split within the Republican Party that continues to marginalize it.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-48938 sinz54 Fri, 01 May 2009 10:39:56 +0000 #comment-48938 Bulldoglover100: That was my point too, though Ms. Glendon dismissed it.<br><br>This venue isn't for making political speeches to be televised on Fox News and impressing the rest of the country. The primary purpose of this venue is to honor the STUDENTS who worked so hard to earn their degrees.<br><br>I recall that during the Bush Administration, some Hollywood types invited to speak at some Commencements made totally inappropriate comments about Bush, or Schwarzenegger. They would also inject totally inappropriate political speeches during the Academy Awards ceremonies. At the time, we conservatives chafed under this politicization of non-political events.<br><br>Let's practice what we preach, and not do the same thing ourselves to a liberal President. <br> Bulldoglover100: That was my point too, though Ms. Glendon dismissed it.

This venue isn’t for making political speeches to be televised on Fox News and impressing the rest of the country. The primary purpose of this venue is to honor the STUDENTS who worked so hard to earn their degrees.

I recall that during the Bush Administration, some Hollywood types invited to speak at some Commencements made totally inappropriate comments about Bush, or Schwarzenegger. They would also inject totally inappropriate political speeches during the Academy Awards ceremonies. At the time, we conservatives chafed under this politicization of non-political events.

Let’s practice what we preach, and not do the same thing ourselves to a liberal President.

]]> By: Bulldoglover100 http://www.frumforum.com/round-two-yes-i-get-it-but-glendon-is-still-wrong/comment-page-1#comment-53339 Bulldoglover100 Fri, 01 May 2009 10:31:38 +0000 #comment-53339 Glendons action were classic "If I don't get my way I will take my toys and go home". Nothing more. Someone needs to tell her that the door neednt hit her on her behind and that people like her? Are a dime a dozen.<br>Seperation between church and state MUST be maintained and for those who don't get that? They need to take some history courses.<br>As for her taking a stand? Really? At a graduation??? ITS ABOUT THE KIDS not some speakers choice of religion!!!! Good gosh no wonder we are losing all over the country! Glendons action were classic “If I don’t get my way I will take my toys and go home”. Nothing more. Someone needs to tell her that the door neednt hit her on her behind and that people like her? Are a dime a dozen.
Seperation between church and state MUST be maintained and for those who don’t get that? They need to take some history courses.
As for her taking a stand? Really? At a graduation??? ITS ABOUT THE KIDS not some speakers choice of religion!!!! Good gosh no wonder we are losing all over the country!

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