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	<title>Comments on: Romney&#8217;s Evangelical Problem</title>
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	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:50:58 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Eunomia &#187; Romney And The Manhattan Declaration</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/romneys-evangelical-problem/comment-page-3#comment-81962</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunomia &#187; Romney And The Manhattan Declaration</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 02:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=16931#comment-81962</guid>
		<description>[...] Romney And The Manhattan Declaration Posted on November 28th, 2009 by Daniel Larison Digg&#160;&#160;Stumble Upon&#160;&#160;Newsvine&#160;&#160;Slashdot&#160;&#160;Mixx&#160;&#160;Diigo&#160;&#160;Google&#160;&#160;Delicious&#160;&#160;Reddit&#160;&#160;Facebook&#160;&#160;   A declaration intended as the defining statement of conservative Christian principle in the post-2008 political landscape – endorsed by over 150 people over a period of a month – found room for not a single Mormon signatory. Mormons may contribute generously to social conservative causes like the National Organization for Marriage and the campaign against same-sex marriage in California. But when it comes time to define what is Christian and what is not, Mormons are not to be included. I have to think that’s ominous news for the Romney 2012 campaign. ~David Frum [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Romney And The Manhattan Declaration Posted on November 28th, 2009 by Daniel Larison Digg&nbsp;&nbsp;Stumble Upon&nbsp;&nbsp;Newsvine&nbsp;&nbsp;Slashdot&nbsp;&nbsp;Mixx&nbsp;&nbsp;Diigo&nbsp;&nbsp;Google&nbsp;&nbsp;Delicious&nbsp;&nbsp;Reddit&nbsp;&nbsp;Facebook&nbsp;&nbsp;   A declaration intended as the defining statement of conservative Christian principle in the post-2008 political landscape – endorsed by over 150 people over a period of a month – found room for not a single Mormon signatory. Mormons may contribute generously to social conservative causes like the National Organization for Marriage and the campaign against same-sex marriage in California. But when it comes time to define what is Christian and what is not, Mormons are not to be included. I have to think that’s ominous news for the Romney 2012 campaign. ~David Frum [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Tweet: Your Personal Networking Assistant!</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/romneys-evangelical-problem/comment-page-3#comment-78241</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Tweet: Your Personal Networking Assistant!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=16931#comment-78241</guid>
		<description>[...] of a 5k race on Thanksgiving Day in Kennewick, Wash. The former vice preside...         2  Likes     Romney&#8217;s Evangelical Problem             2  Likes     WHO &#124; Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 - update 76             2  Likes     Brains [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of a 5k race on Thanksgiving Day in Kennewick, Wash. The former vice preside&#8230;         2  Likes     Romney&#8217;s Evangelical Problem             2  Likes     WHO | Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 &#8211; update 76             2  Likes     Brains [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JedMerrill</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/romneys-evangelical-problem/comment-page-3#comment-74765</link>
		<dc:creator>JedMerrill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 03:13:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=16931#comment-74765</guid>
		<description>Carney, regarding: &quot;True-believing Mormons owe absolute allegiance to a figure who is bound by no limits and whose commands on anything thus cannot be predicted with certainty.&quot;

I don&#039;t know any Mormon who promises such absolute allegiance to anyone.  We even struggle to follow Christ sometimes.

I think the perpetuation of the idea that Mormons are somehow sheep to some mortal man or men is very ironic, considering the primary purpose of those mortal men is to help us individually get in touch with God and know his will.

Thomas S. Monson, Gordon B. Hinckley, Joseph Smith himself...  Their power to influence members of the Church can be found in these profound, yet simple, verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 121: (Pay special attention to verses 36 and 41-46!)

 34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
  35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
  36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
  37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
  38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.
  39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
  40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
  41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
  42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
  43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
  44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.
  45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distill upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.
  46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/121

Joseph Smith himself was asked how he was able to  govern the Church, and he answered, &quot;I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.&quot;

Thomas S. Monson, current President of the Church, I respect first and foremost because of his example of service to others throughout his life, not his title.  When my grandfather&#039;s sister-in-law died last year, the President of this now 14 million member church quietly showed up to comfort the family. 

While there is an established hierarchy in the Church that has changed at times to accommodate the rapid growth of the Church throughout the world, it is unfair to call the Church in any way authoritarian or rigid.  It is organized, as one would expect the household of God to be.  &quot;My house is a house of order,&quot; God said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carney, regarding: &#8220;True-believing Mormons owe absolute allegiance to a figure who is bound by no limits and whose commands on anything thus cannot be predicted with certainty.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know any Mormon who promises such absolute allegiance to anyone.  We even struggle to follow Christ sometimes.</p>
<p>I think the perpetuation of the idea that Mormons are somehow sheep to some mortal man or men is very ironic, considering the primary purpose of those mortal men is to help us individually get in touch with God and know his will.</p>
<p>Thomas S. Monson, Gordon B. Hinckley, Joseph Smith himself&#8230;  Their power to influence members of the Church can be found in these profound, yet simple, verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 121: (Pay special attention to verses 36 and 41-46!)</p>
<p> 34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?<br />
  35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—<br />
  36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.<br />
  37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.<br />
  38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.<br />
  39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.<br />
  40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.<br />
  41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;<br />
  42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—<br />
  43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;<br />
  44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.<br />
  45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distill upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.<br />
  46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.</p>
<p><a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/121" rel="nofollow">http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/121</a></p>
<p>Joseph Smith himself was asked how he was able to  govern the Church, and he answered, &#8220;I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thomas S. Monson, current President of the Church, I respect first and foremost because of his example of service to others throughout his life, not his title.  When my grandfather&#8217;s sister-in-law died last year, the President of this now 14 million member church quietly showed up to comfort the family. </p>
<p>While there is an established hierarchy in the Church that has changed at times to accommodate the rapid growth of the Church throughout the world, it is unfair to call the Church in any way authoritarian or rigid.  It is organized, as one would expect the household of God to be.  &#8220;My house is a house of order,&#8221; God said.</p>
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		<title>By: dragonlady</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/romneys-evangelical-problem/comment-page-3#comment-74721</link>
		<dc:creator>dragonlady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=16931#comment-74721</guid>
		<description>&quot;The GOP is now almost totally run in religious terms.&quot;  A correction: evangelicals make up about 25% of GOP voters so while they don&#039;t run the GOP, they are sizable enough that they just can&#039;t be ignored.  I think it&#039;s possible for Romney to overcome his Mormonism with the base but as far as litmus tests, I don&#039;t think you&#039;ll see an atheist or Muslim nominated any time soon from either party.  That&#039;s not just a GOPism--I think many Americans would be uncomfortable with either in the Oval Office for various reasons (right or wrong).

I don&#039;t agree Romney is completely done in by his previous campaign. In this age of instant media, he can re-tool his image and play up the competence angle. Obama is starting to be perceived as having a competence problem (see Noonan&#039;s latest column)--remains to be seen whether he turns this around. If the economy is still down the tubes in 2012 or if unemployment is still high, Romney, I think, can credibly show he has a fundamental understanding of the economy and how the private sector works. I think independents are pretty practical--they&#039;ll choose someone they think can &quot;fix&quot; things over ideology.  If he fails on politics, that&#039;s one thing.  If we self-exclude him because he&#039;s a Mormon, we&#039;re shooting ourselves in the foot.  These discussions on whether Mormonism is or is not outside of Christianity make my head hurt--I have no problem with his Mormon religion.  

From what I&#039;ve seen of Eric Cantor, I would consider supporting him in a run--doesn&#039;t bother me he&#039;s Jewish. Except the House of Rep is often too small a platform to run from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The GOP is now almost totally run in religious terms.&#8221;  A correction: evangelicals make up about 25% of GOP voters so while they don&#8217;t run the GOP, they are sizable enough that they just can&#8217;t be ignored.  I think it&#8217;s possible for Romney to overcome his Mormonism with the base but as far as litmus tests, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ll see an atheist or Muslim nominated any time soon from either party.  That&#8217;s not just a GOPism&#8211;I think many Americans would be uncomfortable with either in the Oval Office for various reasons (right or wrong).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t agree Romney is completely done in by his previous campaign. In this age of instant media, he can re-tool his image and play up the competence angle. Obama is starting to be perceived as having a competence problem (see Noonan&#8217;s latest column)&#8211;remains to be seen whether he turns this around. If the economy is still down the tubes in 2012 or if unemployment is still high, Romney, I think, can credibly show he has a fundamental understanding of the economy and how the private sector works. I think independents are pretty practical&#8211;they&#8217;ll choose someone they think can &#8220;fix&#8221; things over ideology.  If he fails on politics, that&#8217;s one thing.  If we self-exclude him because he&#8217;s a Mormon, we&#8217;re shooting ourselves in the foot.  These discussions on whether Mormonism is or is not outside of Christianity make my head hurt&#8211;I have no problem with his Mormon religion.  </p>
<p>From what I&#8217;ve seen of Eric Cantor, I would consider supporting him in a run&#8211;doesn&#8217;t bother me he&#8217;s Jewish. Except the House of Rep is often too small a platform to run from.</p>
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		<title>By: Carney</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/romneys-evangelical-problem/comment-page-3#comment-74622</link>
		<dc:creator>Carney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=16931#comment-74622</guid>
		<description>I forgot to mention that another key reason I backed Romney was my relatively high confidence that no personal or financial corruption scandal would emerge to harm him or the campaign.  This was key after the never-ending parade of mortifying GOP scandal - Abramoff, Cunningham, Foley, Craig, etc.  In general, Mormons are so honest they are heavily over-represented in high-temptation jobs such as gambling regulation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to mention that another key reason I backed Romney was my relatively high confidence that no personal or financial corruption scandal would emerge to harm him or the campaign.  This was key after the never-ending parade of mortifying GOP scandal &#8211; Abramoff, Cunningham, Foley, Craig, etc.  In general, Mormons are so honest they are heavily over-represented in high-temptation jobs such as gambling regulation.</p>
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		<title>By: DFL</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/romneys-evangelical-problem/comment-page-3#comment-74603</link>
		<dc:creator>DFL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=16931#comment-74603</guid>
		<description>If Romney is &quot;political toast&quot;, as Chekote insists, and Huckabee is through due to what happened in Tacoma this weekend, then does Mrs. Palin win the nomination in 2012 by default?  Or  does Romney, despite what Chekote maintains, become the default nominee?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Romney is &#8220;political toast&#8221;, as Chekote insists, and Huckabee is through due to what happened in Tacoma this weekend, then does Mrs. Palin win the nomination in 2012 by default?  Or  does Romney, despite what Chekote maintains, become the default nominee?</p>
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		<title>By: Wisdom, Imprinted Agendas, Presidential Politics and more&#8230; &#124; Article VI Blog &#124; John Schroeder</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/romneys-evangelical-problem/comment-page-3#comment-74569</link>
		<dc:creator>Wisdom, Imprinted Agendas, Presidential Politics and more&#8230; &#124; Article VI Blog &#124; John Schroeder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=16931#comment-74569</guid>
		<description>[...] this guy &#8211; this guy and this thread at Free Republic.  This in spite of the fact that David Frum thinks the thing is exclusionary for Romney.  (Frum&#8217;s comment must have been written under the influence of too much Thanksgiving cheer [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this guy &#8211; this guy and this thread at Free Republic.  This in spite of the fact that David Frum thinks the thing is exclusionary for Romney.  (Frum&#8217;s comment must have been written under the influence of too much Thanksgiving cheer [...]</p>
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		<title>By: gkg</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/romneys-evangelical-problem/comment-page-3#comment-74564</link>
		<dc:creator>gkg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=16931#comment-74564</guid>
		<description>The rhetoric about Mormons being a cult and not being Christian is tired and worn.  If you know a member of the LDS church, and you probably do, you may very well find him or her to be someone who is trying to live a Christ-like life of service and charity who doesn&#039;t really fit the picture that is painted by detractors.

Objective thinkers should be judging Romney by his record rather than his religion.  There is no reason to think that the LDS church would have more influence on his politics than it does on Harry Reid who is also a Mormon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The rhetoric about Mormons being a cult and not being Christian is tired and worn.  If you know a member of the LDS church, and you probably do, you may very well find him or her to be someone who is trying to live a Christ-like life of service and charity who doesn&#8217;t really fit the picture that is painted by detractors.</p>
<p>Objective thinkers should be judging Romney by his record rather than his religion.  There is no reason to think that the LDS church would have more influence on his politics than it does on Harry Reid who is also a Mormon.</p>
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		<title>By: SpartacusIsNotDead</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/romneys-evangelical-problem/comment-page-3#comment-74477</link>
		<dc:creator>SpartacusIsNotDead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 06:34:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=16931#comment-74477</guid>
		<description>balconesfault wrote:   &quot;Well, Sinz has already stated his case for when he believes the “War on Terror” will be won.&quot;


I remember reading that post and wondering why he wasn&#039;t embarrassed to have written something like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>balconesfault wrote:   &#8220;Well, Sinz has already stated his case for when he believes the “War on Terror” will be won.&#8221;</p>
<p>I remember reading that post and wondering why he wasn&#8217;t embarrassed to have written something like that.</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/romneys-evangelical-problem/comment-page-3#comment-74467</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=16931#comment-74467</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt; Some of my evangelical friends say they won’t be satisfied till our government becomes a “Christian one.”&lt;/b&gt;

An AM political talk show host here in Austin last year declared that he would never vote for a non-Christian if there was a Christian  in the race.   And he still has his job.  Go figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b> Some of my evangelical friends say they won’t be satisfied till our government becomes a “Christian one.”</b></p>
<p>An AM political talk show host here in Austin last year declared that he would never vote for a non-Christian if there was a Christian  in the race.   And he still has his job.  Go figure.</p>
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