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	<title>Comments on: Replacing School Choice with Govt Mandates</title>
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	<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates</link>
	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: SFTor1</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates/comment-page-1#comment-85567</link>
		<dc:creator>SFTor1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 02:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=24377#comment-85567</guid>
		<description>OK, Carney, just come out and say it: white people are smarter than black people. It&#039;s an honest view. Racist, but honest.

It still leaves us with a problem with Hispanics. You seem to have some theories about the intelligence of mixed races. Is that the case? H0w about people who are mulattos? How do they figure in all of this?

&quot;Their non-white underclass.&quot; Nice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, Carney, just come out and say it: white people are smarter than black people. It&#8217;s an honest view. Racist, but honest.</p>
<p>It still leaves us with a problem with Hispanics. You seem to have some theories about the intelligence of mixed races. Is that the case? H0w about people who are mulattos? How do they figure in all of this?</p>
<p>&#8220;Their non-white underclass.&#8221; Nice.</p>
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		<title>By: Carney</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates/comment-page-1#comment-85418</link>
		<dc:creator>Carney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=24377#comment-85418</guid>
		<description>SFTor1, just one tidbit for now: whites from families making less than $10,000 outscore blacks from families earning over $70,000 on the SAT, which is closely tied to IQ, which in turn is closely tied to life outcomes such as crime, welfare, and drugs.

&quot;Hispanics are as white as anyone by the way. Does this pose some kind of a problem for the assertion?&#039;

Wrong.  Only some Hispanics are white (that is, exclusively or overwhelmingly of European descent).  Most, especially in the US, are mestizos (mixed white and Indian, heavily the latter) or pure Indian.  Except for Cubans, the white elites of Latin America are not the ones flocking to our shores; they&#039;re already on top of their societies and are eager to dump their non-white underclass on us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SFTor1, just one tidbit for now: whites from families making less than $10,000 outscore blacks from families earning over $70,000 on the SAT, which is closely tied to IQ, which in turn is closely tied to life outcomes such as crime, welfare, and drugs.</p>
<p>&#8220;Hispanics are as white as anyone by the way. Does this pose some kind of a problem for the assertion?&#8217;</p>
<p>Wrong.  Only some Hispanics are white (that is, exclusively or overwhelmingly of European descent).  Most, especially in the US, are mestizos (mixed white and Indian, heavily the latter) or pure Indian.  Except for Cubans, the white elites of Latin America are not the ones flocking to our shores; they&#8217;re already on top of their societies and are eager to dump their non-white underclass on us.</p>
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		<title>By: kevin47</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates/comment-page-1#comment-85405</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin47</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=24377#comment-85405</guid>
		<description>She did work in the Clinton administration, and has undergone an ideological shift generally.  It doesn&#039;t really say much of anything in her op-ed, and I haven&#039;t seen her come up with any sort of concrete ideas, so I don&#039;t really much care what she thinks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She did work in the Clinton administration, and has undergone an ideological shift generally.  It doesn&#8217;t really say much of anything in her op-ed, and I haven&#8217;t seen her come up with any sort of concrete ideas, so I don&#8217;t really much care what she thinks.</p>
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		<title>By: SpartacusIsNotDead</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates/comment-page-1#comment-85403</link>
		<dc:creator>SpartacusIsNotDead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:07:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=24377#comment-85403</guid>
		<description>Independent wrote:   &quot;Diane Ravitch was hired by the Obama Administration as a “Senior Advisor” and paid consultant on Wed January 28, 2009. She comes with impeccable Clinton-era credentials.&quot;

Do you have a link for this or any kind of evidence other than partisanship?  I cannot find any evidence that Diane Ravitch is a paid consultant to the Obama Administration.

I did, however, discover that she was Asst. Secretary of Education to Lamar Alexander in the George H.W. Bush Administration.  I guess she also has impeccable Bush-era credentials as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Independent wrote:   &#8220;Diane Ravitch was hired by the Obama Administration as a “Senior Advisor” and paid consultant on Wed January 28, 2009. She comes with impeccable Clinton-era credentials.&#8221;</p>
<p>Do you have a link for this or any kind of evidence other than partisanship?  I cannot find any evidence that Diane Ravitch is a paid consultant to the Obama Administration.</p>
<p>I did, however, discover that she was Asst. Secretary of Education to Lamar Alexander in the George H.W. Bush Administration.  I guess she also has impeccable Bush-era credentials as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Independent</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates/comment-page-1#comment-85388</link>
		<dc:creator>Independent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=24377#comment-85388</guid>
		<description>Spartie: &quot;Diane Ravitch is not in the Obama Administration so what are you talking about?&quot;

Diane Ravitch was hired by the Obama Administration as a &quot;Senior Advisor&quot; and paid consultant on Wed January 28, 2009.  She comes with impeccable Clinton-era credentials.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spartie: &#8220;Diane Ravitch is not in the Obama Administration so what are you talking about?&#8221;</p>
<p>Diane Ravitch was hired by the Obama Administration as a &#8220;Senior Advisor&#8221; and paid consultant on Wed January 28, 2009.  She comes with impeccable Clinton-era credentials.</p>
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		<title>By: kevin47</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates/comment-page-1#comment-85387</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin47</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=24377#comment-85387</guid>
		<description>&quot;The idea that parents can educate their children successfully at home needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt.&quot;

Why? The evidence is not on your side here.  

&quot;Maybe to conform to some sort of religious orthodoxy, but to face the requirements of today’s college and work environments? Don’t think so.&quot;

I think so.  Many of my homeschooled friends enrolled in community college at 15 or 16, and had full time jobs by the time they we 19 or 21 (depending on whether they stuck with a two year).  

Homeschooling curricula, on average, tend to be far more rigorous on the basics, and lighter on things like physical education and the arts.  That is changing as home school co-ops become more mainstream, but there is a trade off.

Unless it can be conclusively demonstrated that this trade off results in poorer results re: college/work preparedness vs. public schools, I don&#039;t see any grains of salt for you to latch onto here.  

It seems to me that our public schools should be delighted that students choose other avenues.  This brings down costs and class sizes on a system that is obviously overburdened.  We should be encouraging this behavior, rather than lamenting it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The idea that parents can educate their children successfully at home needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why? The evidence is not on your side here.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Maybe to conform to some sort of religious orthodoxy, but to face the requirements of today’s college and work environments? Don’t think so.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think so.  Many of my homeschooled friends enrolled in community college at 15 or 16, and had full time jobs by the time they we 19 or 21 (depending on whether they stuck with a two year).  </p>
<p>Homeschooling curricula, on average, tend to be far more rigorous on the basics, and lighter on things like physical education and the arts.  That is changing as home school co-ops become more mainstream, but there is a trade off.</p>
<p>Unless it can be conclusively demonstrated that this trade off results in poorer results re: college/work preparedness vs. public schools, I don&#8217;t see any grains of salt for you to latch onto here.  </p>
<p>It seems to me that our public schools should be delighted that students choose other avenues.  This brings down costs and class sizes on a system that is obviously overburdened.  We should be encouraging this behavior, rather than lamenting it.</p>
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		<title>By: LFC</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates/comment-page-1#comment-85368</link>
		<dc:creator>LFC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=24377#comment-85368</guid>
		<description>I have no problem with a standardized basic curriculum, but not a full one.  Setting minimum standards for math, English, maybe geography, and science is fine.  Setting a standardized curriculum for most Social Studies, history, art, foreign languages, etc. gets trickier.

Of course, science has gotten tricky because of the people who refuse to accept evolution, quite possibly the single most evidence supported theory in all of biology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no problem with a standardized basic curriculum, but not a full one.  Setting minimum standards for math, English, maybe geography, and science is fine.  Setting a standardized curriculum for most Social Studies, history, art, foreign languages, etc. gets trickier.</p>
<p>Of course, science has gotten tricky because of the people who refuse to accept evolution, quite possibly the single most evidence supported theory in all of biology.</p>
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		<title>By: Read: Diane Ravitch Department</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates/comment-page-1#comment-85363</link>
		<dc:creator>Read: Diane Ravitch Department</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=24377#comment-85363</guid>
		<description>[...] Brownson is even more dismissive of Ravitch than Coulson or I would be. He also gives school reformers some grief: &#8220;One [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Brownson is even more dismissive of Ravitch than Coulson or I would be. He also gives school reformers some grief: &#8220;One [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates/comment-page-1#comment-85349</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=24377#comment-85349</guid>
		<description>SFTor1: &lt;blockquote&gt; The idea that parents can educate their children successfully at home needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Maybe to conform to some sort of religious orthodoxy, but to face the requirements of today’s college and work environments? Don’t think so. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
You&#039;re wrong.

Homeschooled children often beat public schooled children on standardized tests.

I don&#039;t think that&#039;s because homeschooling is superior in an absolute sense.

Rather, it&#039;s because so many public schools are ghastly--little more than miniature anarchies in which any kid with the slightest sign of intelligence is beaten up by gangs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SFTor1:  The idea that parents can educate their children successfully at home needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Maybe to conform to some sort of religious orthodoxy, but to face the requirements of today’s college and work environments? Don’t think so.<br />
You&#8217;re wrong.</p>
<p>Homeschooled children often beat public schooled children on standardized tests.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s because homeschooling is superior in an absolute sense.</p>
<p>Rather, it&#8217;s because so many public schools are ghastly&#8211;little more than miniature anarchies in which any kid with the slightest sign of intelligence is beaten up by gangs.</p>
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		<title>By: kevin47</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/replacing-school-choice-with-govt-mandates/comment-page-1#comment-85322</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin47</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 07:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=24377#comment-85322</guid>
		<description>&quot;What are the material differences between these words and the words Carney wrote?&quot;

Ummm, I misread what Carney wrote.  My bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What are the material differences between these words and the words Carney wrote?&#8221;</p>
<p>Ummm, I misread what Carney wrote.  My bad.</p>
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