(*GRIN*)

I take it we’re done now.

(*WINK*)

BILL

“Call me crazy… but I want my country’s warriors to be DOING the shooting down, not GETTING shot down…(*SNORT*)”

Face it–you have no idea the nature of a bombing mission over a heavily defended enemy’s capital. You also conveniently left out that while McCain started out as sub-par aviator, his skills improved over time and his fellow aviators in Vietnam said McCain was a good pilot. SO

“Barker, How much do you know about…”

Yet another refusal to directly address the point, to meet the challenge of telling me specifically where you think I’ve gone wrong.

“Is being an aviator, officer, and POW all separate items of “warrior-ship” in your eyes? Do you know how to fly an attack aircraft over an enemy capital through heavy AAA and surface to air missile fire?”

ONE MORE TIME… (back to the “videotape…) (*SNORT*)

GUARDIANO wrote: “As an aviator and as a naval officer, Senator McCain was a great warrior…”

“…GREAT warrior…”

“…GREAT…”

(You know… as in far better than AVERAGE… as in OUTSTANDING in the performance of his role, his MISSONS…)

Let’s take a stroll through memory lane – shall we?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/10/mccain_fudges_his_navy_record.html

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_mccain_crash_five_planes_did_he.html

Senator McCain crashed his first navy plane while in training. The date… March 12, 1960.

For literally 48 years McCain LIED about the cause of that crash. He LIED about the cause of the crash in his 1999 best seller “Faith of My Fathers.” He was only “caught” when the navy finally released part of his actual records in 2008.

* MCCAIN’S version, “Faith of My Fathers,” 1999 (pp155-156):

“I crashed a plane in Corpus Christi Bay one Saturday morning. The engine quit while I was practicing landings. … I barely managed to get the canopy open and swim to the surface. … I took a few painkillers and hit the sack to rest my aching back for a few hours. … I was out carousing, injured back and all, later that evening.”

** THE ACTUAL FACTUAL MILITARY RECORD:

According to a Naval Aviation Safety Center report, following the crash investigators determined that the engine did not quit, and McCain was to blame.

As recounted in a Los Angeles Times article, Oct. 6, 2008:

“Cockpit instruments that froze on impact showed the engine was still producing power. When water quenched the exhaust stack, it preserved a bright blue color, showing that the engine was still hot. And an aviator behind McCain reported that the engine was producing the black smoke characteristic of Skyraiders. Investigators determined that McCain was watching instruments in his cockpit that indicated the position of his landing gear and had lost track of his altitude and speed. The report concluded: “In the opinion of the board, the pilot’s preoccupation in the cockpit . . . coupled with the use of a power setting too low to maintain level flight in a turn were the primary causes of this accident.”"

(*SMIRK*)

Oops.

So… Dragonlady… how do you like the way this exchange is turning out for you…??? Has it sunk in yet that all your “defense” of McCain has led to is for all of those reading this who WEREN’T aware that McCain had not just crashed a plane during training, but had LIED about the incident for almost five decades… they’re all NOW aware…???

GREAT JOB, DL! Super! Yep… as an “advocate” for John McCain you’re doing a bang up job.

(*SMIRK*)

More…??? Sure…

(Hey… cheer up… in the following case at least McCain isn’t shown as a liar – only as irresponsible.)

*** McCain’s OWN version…

MCCAIN, “Faith of My Fathers,” 1999 (p. 159):

“There were occasional setbacks in my efforts to round out my Navy profile. My reputation was certainly not enhanced when I knocked down some power lines while flying too low over southern Spain. My daredevil clowning had cut off electricity to a great many Spanish homes and created a small international incident.”

The L.A. Times, which interviewed others who were in McCain’s squadron at the time, reports that he returned to the carrier with 10 feet of power line trailing from his plan, and with a severed oil line.

FUNNY STUFF, huh, Dragonlady!? Just “a boy being a boy,” huh?

I mean… nothing to look askew at, right? It’s only a multimillion dollar aircraft. And it’s not like there are people or property at risk on the ground, right…???

OH…! YEAH…! I guess there WERE people on the ground whom McCain not only “inconvenienced” but whose lives he cavalierly risked.

And, hey… what’s a “severed oil line” between friends, huh? I mean… it’s not like THAT could have led to anything… er… bad happening.

(*SMIRK*)

(Boy, DL… if McCain were lurking reading this thread he’d sure be… er… grateful to YOU for… er… so effectively… er… “defending” his reputation as a “great warrior.”)

(*SNORT*)

OH… LOOK… another CRASH to report on…

**** McCain’s OWN version…

MCCAIN, “Faith of My Fathers,” 1999 (p. 172):

“Somewhere between the Eastern Shore of Maryland and Norfolk, Virginia, as I was preparing to come in and refuel, my engine flamed out, and I had to eject at a thousand feet. The Christmas gifts were lost with my airplane.”

Oh… what’s that you say, DL…??? You want context… you wanna know what McCain was talking about? Sure!

“Nov. 28 1965: By this time Lt. McCain was stationed at Meridian, Mississippi, and was newly married to his first wife, Carol. McCain had flown to Philadelphia to attend an Army-Navy football game with his parents and was bringing back Christmas presents for the family in the baggage compartment of his plane. His jet engine quit over the Chesapeake Bay.”

Christmas presents. Christmas presents and Army-Navy football. Yep. Well worth the loss of yet another taxpayer provided aircraft – this time one apparently used as personal leisure transportation for Admiral McCain’s son John. (*SMIRK*)

***** THE OFFICIAL VERSION (or… rather… the FIRST “official version” vs. the SECOND “official version”):

The L.A. Times obtained records of the investigation of this crash, giving a somewhat different picture but ultimately blaming engine failure:

****** From the Los Angeles Times, Oct. 8, 2008:

“In a report dated Jan. 18, 1966, the Naval Aviation Safety Center said it could not determine the cause of the accident or corroborate McCain’s account of an explosion in the engine. A close examination of the engine found “no discrepancies which would have caused or contributed to engine failure or malfunction.” . . . About two weeks after issuing its report, the safety center revised its findings and said the accident resulted from the failure or malfunction of an “undetermined component of the engine.”

Hmm! Imagine that! Two weeks later a “revised” finding! Oh… and surprise, surprise… the Admiral’s son rates the “benefit of the doubt” and all of a sudden in a situation where trained investigators had found NO “discrepancies which would have caused or contributed to engine failure or malfunctions,” magically, two weeks later, the official finding is… er… “revised” to become “failure or malfunction of an undetermined component of the engine.”

(*SMIRK*)

Anyway, Dragonlady… you keep on… er… “helping” John McCain.

(*WINK*)

BILL

“Barker, please don’t disparage McCain’s service just because you don’t like him as a politican.”

Typical. (*SNORT*) No one single challenge of any specific point I made.

READ MUCH…??? COMPREHEND MUCH…??? Here… put on your glasses… try again:

John Guardiano wrote: “As an aviator and as a naval officer, Senator McCain was a great warrior…”

Bill Barker replied: “No. Actually he wasn’t! He made it through flight training and into combat as a pilot because of who he was… who his father was… who his grandfather was… who his family was. His claim to fame – true heroism as a POW in refusing to “cut the line” and accept “early” release – was prefaced by…

***BEING SHOT DOWN***

Call me crazy… but I want my country’s warriors to be DOING the shooting down, not GETTING shot down, and certainly not crashing multi-million-dollar aircrafts during training. (*SNORT*)

==========

Now. Exactly WHERE did I “disparage” McCain’s heroism…??? Hmm…???

Is it logic as well as reading comprehension where you’re weak…??? Hmm…???

Guardiano referred to McCain as a, QUOTE, “great warrior.”

WARRIOR…

I address John McCain’s well known WEAKNESSES as a WARRIOR.

As for McCain heroism…

AGAIN… PAY ATTENTION if it’s within your capacity…

What I wrote, was, QUOTE, “McCain’s] claim to fame – true heroism as a POW in refusing to “cut the line” and accept “early” release…”

TRUE HEROISM…!!!

TRUE HEROISM as a POW in refusing to “cut the line” and accept “early” release…!!!

What is your malfunction, Dragonlady…??? Is resorting to distortion of other’s words really the best you can come up with…???

Com’on… put up or shut up. Tell me point by point where I was untruthful in ANYTHING I wrote about McCain.

BILL

Sinz, that sounds about right. An additional problem is requirements creep as the services keep adding on more advanced things they want a weapon system to do as it is being developed.