In the last post, I noted how unreal it was for conservatives to lament the demise of liberty in the aftermath of the most beautiful efflorescence of liberty in a century. Pessimism is misplaced as a matter of fact. It’s a betrayal of conservatism’s own achievements. And it is something more:
The extremity of conservative pessimism attacks the foundational rules of the American political game. Since 1865, the United States has enjoyed amazing political stability. Americans have achieved this stability via tried and tested rules of the road, including the unquestioning acceptance of election results, an acknowledgement of the basic good faith of the other political party, and an absolute acceptance that people of all points of view are committed to the shared constitutional system.
If I lived in a country in imminent danger of a Bolshevik or Fascist seizure of power, I’d be a cowardly fool if I failed to use every means to prevent it, including violence if need be. If it were true that our political opponents wanted to impose tyranny on the United States – if (as Rush Limbaugh said the other day) a vote for the other party was a vote for “totalitarianism, dungeons, and torture,” then what patriot could possibly abide a political defeat?
Happily, none of those things are true. As wrong and harmful as the Obama administration’s plans are, the administration is playing by the rules of the game. To agitate people into thinking otherwise is to corrode the foundations of the American constitutional regime.
It is also to act and look like sore losers. If America has been sliding gently but irresistibly into soft despotism, where were all the valiant defenders of liberty before November of 2008? Soft despotism begins to look less like a profound sociological trend, more like undulations of the sine curve: It’s despotism when we lose, freedom when we win. We should have more confidence in the people and the country than this. We should also have more charity to our political opponents – who after all are contending with hideous problems bequeathed to them by … by … well suddenly we Republicans cannot seem to remember who preceded Barack Obama in office. To listen to us, you’d think that the bailouts and takeovers started on January 20, 2009, not the previous March. You’d never know that TARP was supported by almost every Republican commentator, including the editors of National Review. Or that Vice President Cheney argued urgently in favor of the rescue of the Detroit automakers. Or that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac enjoyed the backing of Republican as well as Democratic lawmakers.
One bad election converts us from ardent admirers of the American people to glum declinists who can see only a miserable moldering of a once great nation. I should have thought that conservative patriotism was made of stronger stuff.
This is part two in a series. Read the other articles here.
51 responses so far
1 MFarmer // Jul 28, 2009 at 8:26 am
“I should have thought that conservative patriotism was made of stronger stuff.”
The resistance you are witnessing goes beyond different brands of conservatism – moderates are out of touch. The attempt to frame the resistance in the timeframe since the last election might work as a tactic to denigrate the base of the Republican Party, but it ignores a larger movement which has been sick of both parties for quite a while. Moderates need to decide what they stand for, instead of, ironically in this case, whining about the faction they dislike. Your depiction of what’s happening now as a blip in the progress of a great nation, not much different than when Republicans are in control, is both right and wrong. It’s right that both parites are complicit, but it’s wrong that statism is a blip — it’s a trend, and many outside both parties are resisting it — watch the number of independents rise.
2 midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 8:45 am
Exactly MFarmer. Independents are increasing and as both the Dems and GOP lose members, they are not moving to the other party – they are becoming independents. That doesn’t mean they won’t vote for a Dem or GOP candidate, it just means they are beholden to either party. Surf on over to http://www.captiveamerican.com/ and http://www.freeandequal.org to see what independents are doing!
3 midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 8:56 am
hmmm. why is my comment awaiting moderation? I wonder what triggered that. This is a test to see if this comment will trigger the moderation review.
4 midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 8:57 am
Could it be the inclusion of urls? http://www.captiveamerican.com/ and http://www.freeandequal.org
5 sinz54 // Jul 28, 2009 at 9:23 am
Many conservatives are hysterical because for years, right-wing talk radio has equated liberalism with Marxism, tyranny, socialism, Communism, Islamism, etc.
Those scare tactics were useful to motivate the base to participate in GOTV drives and to vote against liberals in large numbers.
But now that we actually do have a liberal Administration, those conservatives are terrified that Marxism has really arrived. And they’re badly depressed that all is lost–America is finished–the Commies are taking over–etc. That’s what talk radio had told them liberals are really like.
This reminds me of the scare tactics that were used against Reagan’s campaign in 1980. The Dems dragged poor old Coretta Scott King out to charge that Reagan, if elected, would unleash the KKK to lynch lots of blacks. The Dems were trying to scare blacks into voting against Reagan in large numbers. But after Reagan won the election anyway, the press was seeing how many blacks were truly terrified at the prospect of a Reagan Administration. It was only after Reagan got inaugurated, and the KKK remained quiescent, that blacks calmed down.
6 sinz54 // Jul 28, 2009 at 9:31 am
Frum asks: “If America has been sliding gently but irresistibly into soft despotism, where were all the valiant defenders of liberty before November of 2008?”
In fairness to those “valiant defenders of liberty,” they were there and acting in accordance with their principles.
Don’t you remember how the GOP base helped shoot down Bush’s immigration bill in 2007?
Don’t you remember how the House Republicans put up a valiant fight to defeat TARP in September 2008? They went all the way to nihilism, some of them saying that they would rather see the U.S. economy “burn” (their word), rather than save it through Government action.
Many conservatives were opposed to Bush’s “No Child Left Behind” and “Medicare Part D” initiatives too.
There is a certain group of conservatives that really believes that liberals are Commie traitors–and those conservatives have been fighting every liberal-oriented proposal there is, whether it comes from Dems or from moderate Repubs.
“When contemplating college liberals, you really regret once again that John Walker is not getting the death penalty. We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed too. Otherwise they will turn out to be outright traitors.”
— Ann Coulter, 2 February 2002
7 barker13 // Jul 28, 2009 at 10:44 am
Re: M idcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 8:45 am –
ONE
MORE
TIME
“Independents” don’t pick the candidates of the two Parties.
Mid. I’m not telling you anything you’ don’t already know. (*SMILE*)
Look… I understand your enthusiasm for the CONCEPT of “the independent block,” but you need to buckle down and face the ADMINISTRATIVE REALITY that it’s not even the grassroots of the two Parties which pick most CANDIDATES for office – it’s the PARTY Committee Members, the “insiders.”
I’m talking the folks who decide who your state legislature (assembly, senate, however each state structures its legislature) candidates will be, who decide who the Parties’ candidates for the House and Senate will be.
I’m talking the folks who decide who gets on the ballot for judgeships. (*SHRUG*)
Mid. Remember. The actual general election is the END of the process. (Right…??? Agreed…???)
Independents may not be “beholden” to either Party; Independents are, however, constrained on election day to voting for one of the actual candidates. (Or leaving a part of the slate blank… or “writing in” a candidate… but bottom line, “non-votes” and “write-ins” don’t elect candidates – votes elect candidates – and you can only vote effectively for one of the candidates who is actually ON the ballot.)
Re: Midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 8:57 am –
I think it’s just a glitch in the system. Same thing happens to me sometimes.
BILL
8 Max // Jul 28, 2009 at 11:10 am
“As wrong and harmful as the Obama administration’s plans are, the administration is playing by the rules of the game. To agitate people into thinking otherwise is to corrode the foundations of the American constitutional regime.”
Oh yeah, ever heard of Acorn?
9 barker13 // Jul 28, 2009 at 11:11 am
Re: Sinz54 // Jul 28, 2009 at 9:23 am –
“Many conservatives are hysterical…”
(*ROLLING MY EYES*)
“…Reagan’s campaign in 1980.”
ONE
MORE
TIME
Sinz. It ain’t 1980. It ain’t 1988.
It ain’t 1945. It ain’t December 16, 1907…
(*GRIN*) (*IMAGINING SINZ GOOGLING THE DATE*)
America is in decline. Period. Financial… political… military… social… we’re in relative decline.
I wish it weren’t so. I truly do. But, hey… I also truly wish your kidneys would magically regenerate themselves back to 100% effectiveness. (I truly do!)
(*SIGH*)
Sinz. I not pessimistic because I want to be; I’m pessimistic because I have the education and analytical skills which allow me to “connect the dots” and “read the tea leafs” concerning trends.
You’re no dummy. You’re no ignoramus. But, Sinz, you wear blinders. Either you simply don’t read enough – from the proper authoritative sources – or else it simply goes in one ear (eye?) and out the other without sticking.
What Bush, Cheney, and the RINOs did to this country – the path they set it upon, the actions they took and the actions they didn’t take – the economic, military, domestic and foreign policy blunders – ACCELERATED and COMPOUNDED by the Pelois/Reid/Obama “ruling” wing of the Democratic Party…
(*SIGH*)
Stick your head in the sand if you must, Sinz. If that’s how you comfort yourself… (*SHRUG*)
Re: Franco-2 // Jul 28, 2009 at 9:25 am –
“…a nebbish…”
(*ROFLMAO*) Oh, Lord… that was a good one! (*HUGE FRIGG’N GRIN*)
“Frum, with all his erudition seems to have forgotten that the Democrats have controlled congress since 2006…”
Franco. Except for you and I… EVERYONE seems to regularly ignore this reality. Hell… I can’t even get the fine folks over at the Republican Study Committee to acknowledge that this is a theme the GOP should be pounding home day in and day out.
(*SIGH*) (Again… it’s “reality” such as I’ve just described that feeds my pessimism – not the other way around.)
“Frum also conveniently forgets that conservatives – real conservatives, were adamantly against TARP and other statist programs promoted by exactly the kinds of Republicans Frum admires.”
(*THUMBS UP*)
(What was it they called it… “pragmatism”… yeah, that’s right… “pragmatic” support of doomed to fail counterproductive economic policies like TARP and “stimulus.”)
(*SMIRK*)
Re: Sinz54 // Jul 28, 2009 at 9:31 am –
“In fairness….Don’t you remember how the GOP base helped shoot down Bush’s immigration bill in 2007? Don’t you remember how the House Republicans put up a valiant fight to defeat TARP in September 2008?….Many conservatives were opposed to Bush’s “No Child Left Behind” and “Medicare Part D” initiatives too.”
*** DAVID. LEARN FROM SINZ. For all my disagreements with Sinz, he’s sincere and tries to be honest. The reason so many of us – representing all points along the ideological spectrum – have such a “personal” problem with you at times is that we find your lack of basic integrity disgraceful.
*** DAVID. Again… I’m trying to EDUCATE you… to HELP you… to turn you aside from such vile instincts that you often allow to guide your writings.
*** DAVID. I say this not out of any support for particular religious doctrine, but as a matter of REASON I believe in the concept of redemption and the ability of human beings to change for the better. It’s never too late, David. To echo our President… ” I HOPE that you CHANGE.”
BILL
10 DFL // Jul 28, 2009 at 11:49 am
The economy is imploding and the budget is exploding just as the demands that the Baby Boomers will be making on entitlements are due to skyrocket. The Third World immigration of the past twenty-five years may be making America a majority-minority nation. Cultural decline accelerates in almost all catagories- illegitmate births, divorce rates, lousy art and music, deplorable manners, dysfunctional families, mediocre novelists, the mainstreaming of homosexuality etc., etc. What’s not to like? The best way for conservatives to combat national collapse is to raise honorable children, form countercultures that are in opposition to what is now the norm, and to withdraw as best as possible from a degraded national culture.
11 midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Barker,
Agreed independents do not select the candidates, but the selection process is influenced by independents. The parties tend to select candidates that will have the greatest appeal. Otherwise the GOP would have selected someone like Huckabee. So, yes you are correct we don’t pick ‘em but someone is thinking about us when the selection is being done. One step at a time. World domination by independents will not happen overnight! But when it does, the first thing I am gonna do is put the flat tax in effect!
12 DFL // Jul 28, 2009 at 12:24 pm
The moderate John McCain was picked in 2008 largely due to the Republican military wing, which is a rather large sub-section of the Republican party, especially in South Carolina and Florida. In many ways, the military wing of the Republican Party rivals the social conservatives and the business conservatives in importance but ths is little reported.
13 barker13 // Jul 28, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Re: Midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 12:20 pm –
“…the selection process…”
Mid. Have you ever sat on a Committee – been elected to a Committee seat either as a Democrat or Republican?
I’m not trying to be disagreeable here, but I know what the frig I’m talking about; I was a cog in the “process” for many years.
There’s a HUGE difference between political shorthand such as “grass roots activists” and COMMITTEE MEMBERS.
Now we have 50 state and rules vary from state to state. Yes, in some states independents – and even members of the other Party – can easily involve themselves in the nuts and bolts of picking candidates. Overall though…
(*SHRUG*)
Anyway, as someone mentioned on another thread the other day, none of our grand ideals and ideas are going to make any difference. Americans will remain largely ignorant and irresponsible. And “they’ll” bring “us” down with them.
Re: Dfl // Jul 28, 2009 at 12:24 pm –
Good observation! Thanks for sharing the insight.
BILL
14 R.E. Munn // Jul 28, 2009 at 12:55 pm
It is hard to understand how David Frum can so badly misunderstand those to whom he refers in this post. Charity is usually well advised. Sometimes, however, unabashed tenacity is indicated, as now. To simply point out, as David did, that Bush was president, and Cheney was for this or that, and so somehow this makes hypocrites out of his targets, is positive proof of David’s fundamental misunderstanding. One has to deal with the hand one is dealt.
15 GT // Jul 28, 2009 at 12:56 pm
As a proud Obama voter I read this blog occassionally for acquiring a broad range of analysis outside of the 4 or 5 sane, independent, and rational thinking bloggers that exist on the internet. (Thank you — David Frum, thank you Andrew Sullivan.)
Personally, I could care less if masochistic and politically suicidal Republicans and conservatives do not have the courage to tell Limbaugh et. al. to shut up; or if they really believe that Sarah Palin is, excuse me, qualified to be the president; or that Palin is actually an intelligent genius on par with, say, Aristotle or Einstein. The closer reality is that Palin is nothing more than Huey Long in a skirt.
I merely want to say that for as long as I have been reading any type of blog or surfuring the internet, barker13/Bill, wins the prize for the most childish, inane commenter I have seen on any website — what, with all the ridiculous, goofy-teenager like “SHRUGS” and cute parenthesises and asides that are a lame attempt to tell us how witty and clever he is. No, seriously, Oscar Wilde from his grave is jealous of your clever genius. Enough said, as anyone who reads this blog knows the embarassing truth of what I have just described.
More importantly, the sad and dangerous thing is that for our beloved country to survive, we need TWO healthy political parties that are willing and able to debate actual ideas. As much as I appreciate and respect Barack Obama, he is far from infallible, and should be challenged on the merits and substance of his policy proposals. Alas, this is not possible as long as America has a political party that is afraid to disagree with Rush Limbaugh. Thus, we have to discuss phony issues like ACORN, Bill Ayers, birth certificates, and whether or not the president of the United States is a secret communist, and other “culture war” bs.
Ben Franklin was right when he warned us about losing our Republic. And I fear and wonder how much more bar-stool, talk-radio idiocy our democracy can endure.
16 Bulldoglover100 // Jul 28, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Frum is right on target for we moderates out here. I am a Republican and a moderate and I am one of the people who was unable to vote for any ticket that included Sarah Palin and the thought process that stupidity could run this country.
Frum is also right that the problems we are facing came from our own elected people. The problems we are facing today stem from our own mistakes that many refuse to accept responsibility for even in the face of facts.
The Republican Party has become a laughing stock all over the world due to our letting those anger filled midgets have the final say before another election takes place…….and i do fear the 2010 elections…if you think Obama is bad now? Wait til he has an even bigger majority then! and he will because we have let anger over ride common sense and we elected people like Vitter, Ensign and Sanford who somehow fail to keep it in their pants while ranting about morality. We elected people like Cheney who will be lucky to stay out of prison and if he does? It will ONLY be because Obama decided he could! We put someone who can’t speak in coherent sentences up for the Vice Presidents position in a country that faces the worse crisis in history! and we allow a thrice dicorced, drug rehabbed Limbaugh to be our voice???and we expected educated people to vote for our party?
Grow up, grow a brain or educate yourself before 2010 because after that? It will really be too late.
17 R.E. Munn // Jul 28, 2009 at 1:22 pm
David Frum and Andrew Sullivan being compared by a reader should be disturbing for Mr. Frum.
18 journeyman // Jul 28, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Once again, Mr. Frum and all you “moderates” are like the gentleman who stands in the middle of the highway at rush hour, doing your level best not to get run over. That’s all moderates do; gazing in both directions and looking for the first open space big enough to run to safety. To moderates (both left & right,) it makes no difference what direction you go, so long as you get to the curb in one piece. As for bulldoglover100, last time I looked, the campaign in ‘08 was your highmark. Moderates like you had their ideal candidate in McCain and moderates like Colin Powell liked him so well, he went and did what any clear headed moderate should do; endorse McCains opponent. Only a moderate would conclude that that political strategty makes any sense. Good luck in remaking the GOP in your own image and consigning yourselves to second class power and influence. As for true conservatives like me, principle rules and not pragmatic indecisiveness leading to political suicide.
19 barker13 // Jul 28, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Re: gt // Jul 28, 2009 at 12:56 pm –
“I merely want to say that for as long as I have been reading any type of blog or surfuring the internet, barker13/Bill, wins the prize for the most childish, inane commenter I have seen on any website — what, with all the ridiculous, goofy-teenager like “SHRUGS” and cute parenthesises and asides that are a lame attempt to tell us how witty and clever he is. No, seriously, Oscar Wilde from his grave is jealous of your clever genius.”
(*CHUCKLE*)
One serious comment: Once again… an attack on the style, a side-step as to the substance. (*SHRUG*)
Re: Bulldoglover100 // Jul 28, 2009 at 1:08 pm –
“I am a Republican and a moderate and I am one of the people who was unable to vote for a ticket that included Sarah Palin…”
May I ask who you voted for? If the answer is Obama then, no, clearly you may be a “registered” Republican (just as I’m a registered Democrat), but you’re certainly not a “real” Republican or moderate in any sense that… er… makes sense.
“…those anger filled midgets…”
(*SNORT*)
“…and I do fear the 2010 elections…”
Why…??? You think the Dems will pick up seats…???
“Wait til [Obama] has an even bigger majority then!”
Wow…! (*GRIN*) You really DO believe the Dems are moving in the right direction! Interesting… (*SHRUG*)
“We elected people like Cheney who will be lucky to stay out of prison…”
(*SNORT*) Let me guess… you were one of those who during Bush’s presidency declared on almost a daily basis that Rove’s indictment was just around the corner…???
(*LAUGHING OUT LOUD*)
“We put someone who can’t speak in coherent sentences up for the Vice President’s position…”
BDL… not to be a stickler… but re-read your own post. “Proof” it. (*SNORT*) (Note: I’ve been kind enough to correct your usage and punctuation in the “clips” I reference.) (You’re welcome!)
“…and we expected educated people…”
Again… (*GUFFAW*)… based upon your writing sample displayed here, I’m not really all that confident that you’re qualified to speak for the… er… educated people. (*GRIN*)
Oh, Lordy, Lordy, Lordy… (*SNICKER*)
BILL
20 GT // Jul 28, 2009 at 1:56 pm
@journeyman: I love when conservatives preach to us about their sacred principles.
“Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.” — Groucho Marx.
And apparently one of your core conservative “principles” was to accept and take seriously a Conservative Affirmative Action Identity Politics candidate like Sarah Palin.
21 Kaz // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:05 pm
David, quit YOUR whining.
Conservatives are finally getting off their butts (witness the tea parties) and speaking out + acting for what they believe in. I don’t call this whining anymore than I would call our founding founders “whiners” for rejecting British tyranny.
Fiscal conservatives and Libertarians have, for too long, acquiesced to big government Republicans like you. These Republicans have been in large part responsible for an enormous national debt, political patronage, and a larger national government. I’m frankly sick of seeing folks like Bush I, Dole, Bush II, and McCain represent Republicans in our national elections.
Elections have consequences, true, and the 2008 election will result in far-reaching economic and social consequences the numb-minding middle will even recognize as destructive.
Honestly, I don’t know of a single “glum declinists” you speak of. But I know of many who want to wrestle political control away from the left, FUNDAMENTALIST Liberals who are currently accumulating control in D.C. and on a course to bankrupt this great nation.
22 barker13 // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Re: Journeyman // Jul 28, 2009 at 1:34 pm –
“As for bulldoglover100, last time I looked, the campaign in ‘08 was your highmark. Moderates like you had their ideal candidate in McCain…”
Don’t you know, Journeyman… it’s all Palin’s fault… or Bush’s fault… or Cheney’s fault. McCain was just in the right place at the wrong time. (*SNORT*)
Journeyman… these people exist in a reality all their own; they’re certainly not going to let facts divert them from the reality of their own making.
“…moderates like Colin Powell liked him so well, he went and did what any clear headed moderate should do; endorse McCains opponent.”
Palin’s fault…! All Palin’s fault!!! Limbaugh…! It was that damned Limbaugh!!!
(*ROLLING MY EYES AS I CHUCKLE AT THE ABSURDITY OF IT ALL*)
“As for true conservatives like me, principle rules…”
(*CLAP-CLAP-CLAP*)
And might I add that the same applies to my “applause” for true liberals who follow their principles. Give me a Ralph Nader any day of the year over a dozen David Frums.
BILL
23 Hot Air » Blog Archive » Frum: History Began When I Decided to Remake Conservatism in My Image // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:15 pm
[...] then Frum published part 2, in which he once again ignores any recent political history that threatens to undermine his [...]
24 midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Barker, let me try this one more time – when you sat on those committees, did electability ever arise as a consideration in the selection of a candidate? You guys kinda thought about whether someone could win and stuff like that correct? (….well, we really like Joe Blow, but he doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell. Sue Carton isn’t our favorite choice but but we have a better chance of winning….)
You guys never did that?
25 Kaz // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:24 pm
@Bulldoglover100
Please explain what a “moderate” is? Do moderates have any principles? What are they? What do moderates believe in?
26 petras // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:31 pm
I used to like David Frum but he seems to be keen to join the Colin Powell Club… attack fellow conservatives and give liberal Dems a pass. Who did Frum vote for this time ?
Frum has most recently attacked Sarah Palin (the most popular conservative) and today attacks likely the most popular conservative commentator and writer: Mark Levin. Who next ? Rush ? Ann Coulter ?
We do have a liberal Democrat-led assault on America. Are there any you’d like to comment on ? their failing policies ?
27 midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Re: gt // Jul 28, 2009 at 12:56 pm –
“I merely want to say that for as long as I have been reading any type of blog or surfuring the internet, barker13/Bill, wins the prize for the most childish, inane commenter I have seen on any website — what, with all the ridiculous, goofy-teenager like “SHRUGS” and cute parenthesises and asides that are a lame attempt to tell us how witty and clever he is. No, seriously, Oscar Wilde from his grave is jealous of your clever genius.”
While I tend towards the more umm…serious, wry, dry, dispassionate postings, barker is a nice constrast. You have to get used to reading him, but he is certainly more entertaining. I’m a big tent kind of guy that believes everyone should have their say in the way they want to say it, even if it’s with snorts, grunts, and other bodily noises! That’s his style. I don’t let it override his message.
28 The Crossed Pond » Quote of the Day // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:33 pm
[...] —David Frum [...]
29 ottovbvs // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:36 pm
midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 8:45 am
“Exactly MFarmer. Independents are increasing and as both the Dems and GOP lose members, they are not moving to the other party – they are becoming independents.”
………….Er…… actually the Democrats are gaining members…….their party regs have risen over the last four years!!
30 midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I love these labeling debates. Instead of discussing substance we jump into the mud pit and sling the labels at each other, moderate, conservative, liberal, centrists, deist, theist, who cares? I have no clue who a moderate is, nor do I believe it means a hill of beans. I’ll say the same thing about liberals and conservatives. Labels mean nothing – words do, but labels do not.
31 barker13 // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Re: Midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:22 pm –
“Barker, let me try this one more time – when you sat on those committees, did electability ever arise as a consideration in the selection of a candidate?”
Only in the broadest possible sense. You know… we’d rarely (*GRIN*) nominate someone who was ALREADY serving a prison term or who was on the convicted sex offenders list… but other than that…
(*SHRUG*)
Mid. You’re letting your ego get in the way of your usual common sense. I’m not engaging in a testosterone contest with you, I’m simply trying to explain to you that in the real world, far more often than not, politics is a “pipeline” business in the sense of the insiders pick the candidates.
Yes, you can get around that, but you can only get around that in a number of ways. An independent financial base or public identity (being a public personality) is one way to break in. From their you create your own network to challenge the “establishment,” but that network must ITSELF have tentacles WITHIN the “establishment.” Another way is for a mover and shaker already IN the establishment at or near the top of the hierarchy to “pull you up.”
Here. Let me give you an example: JUDGES. Here in New York you can’t really “campaign” in an “issues” sense for a judgeship. So… how do judges get elected…??? Well, if it’s a Republican district the Republican Party nominee almost always wins; if it’s a Democrat district the Democratic Party nominee almost always wins.
Same deal pretty much up the ladder for local and state politics. (*SHRUG*)
I’m being honest with you! (And btw, this explains why I’m no longer involved!) Local/County/State politics is nasty and money driven, not so much integrity/ideology driven. It’s who you know, not what you know; who your backers are – and WHY they’re your backers. (Often having to do with money one way or the other – money… power… influence… contracts… real estate deals…)
New York is of course a fairly extreme case. Although Jersey (and IL.) might beat us out in terms of outright Soprano style “mobbed up” corruption, no state beats us in terms of political dysfunction. (Well… MAYBE California… MAYBE…)
(*GRIN*) (*CHUCKLE*)
It’s really a “top down,” not “bottom up,” process.
BILL
32 midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Otto, Yes you are correct there is an upswing in the number of people that self identify as Democrats. From 2004 to 2008 the number went from 35% to 36%. A pretty slow rise, but yeah, a rise nonetheless. FYI, during the same period the number of self identified Republicans went from 33% to 27% a much more precipitous drop – current the self identified republicans is holding around 23%.
33 barker13 // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Re: Midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:36 pm –
“I have no clue who a moderate is…”
(*GRIN*)
How’bout this: I’m a Barkarian; you’re a Midconian?
(*WINK*)
BILL
34 midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Barker, I get your point. I was really focusing more on the national and state level rather than local up to state-wide.
35 barker13 // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Re: Midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:31 pm –
(*BOW*)
THANK you, Mid; I appreciate that.
* This one’s for you, GT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMbk6apcO0M
** BABY… (*GRIN*)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3azMQLBN_0A
BILL
36 ottovbvs // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:56 pm
midcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:43 pm
……..Presumably your talking polls whereas I’m talking party regs…….from memory Dem party regs have gone up by by 8% over the last four years years.
37 badcandy // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:59 pm
David,
If you’re serious about “remaking the conservative party” the best thing you could do is take the nearest exit door out.
And take the RINOS and other faux conservatives with you as well.
38 barker13 // Jul 28, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Re: M<idcon // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:52 pm –
(*NOD*) Good point. Fair point. And back at ya… I understand – and appreciate – where you’re coming from too.
Remember, though – as I’ve noted – by and large MOST politicians work their way up through the system – and “the system” works LARGELY through the Party Committees starting at the bottom rung.
For example… I knew George Pataki when he was an Assemblyman. (*SHRUG*)
Hey… let’s try to put our joint ideals into a proposal for action:
I wish that Gingrich, Palin, Forbes, Limbaugh, Beck, Lieberman… (in other words, a broad spectrum of voices)… even FRUM and SULLIVAN and DAVID BROOKS… and George Bush… and Bill Clinton…
(*TAKING A BREATH*)
I wish ALL these people would unit and “preach” what I’m preaching – that the American People have to retake control of our country from the “insiders” and that the only way to do this is to become “insiders” ourselves.
Gingrich and Armey both lead conservative organizations. There are plenty of other conservative organizations. And not all liberals are “bad” in the sense of “to be shunned” either. “We” have Heritage and AEI, “they” have Brookings and the “Foundations.”
We need the movers and shakers who truly care about this nation’s future and who oppose an oligarchy (regardless of who benefits or doesn’t) to at least TRY to lead the American People towards taking back control of the two Parties.
Americans need to understand that unless they involve themselves in Party politics so that they have (greater) influence in picking candidates, they’ll be left with choices at general election time that often are perceived as “bad choice” vs. “worse choice.” (*SHRUG*)
No. America doesn’t need more “community activists.” American doesn’t need more “citizen activists.” Nope. America needs more Republican and Democratic Party Committee people – or rather a fresh crop… a revolving door for “fresh blood” to enter the system.
If a band of “my political favorites” were to leave the GOP to start a new Party… I’d join them.
Perhaps my doppelgangers (*SNORT*) on the Left feel the same.
Thing is… I don’t see it happening. And if it did – if it did for only ONE Party, not both – all it would do would be ensure victory for the Party that remained united.
I’m sorry. There’s just NOT going to be an “Independent” Party that sweeps away the Jackass and the Elephant. So… in the meantime… folks like us (well… folks like you… I’ve done my bit – I’m taking a break for now) need to grab the reins of that Jackass and that Elephant and reestablish control!
BILL
39 Quit Whining! 3 // Jul 28, 2009 at 3:49 pm
[...] Below, I’ve addressed why the liberty v. tyranny trope self-betrays conservative history and why it corrodes America’s constitutional norms. But that’s not the bottom of it. Today’s conservative despair also sabotages our effectiveness in practical politics. [...]
40 ottovbvs // Jul 28, 2009 at 4:37 pm
badcandy // Jul 28, 2009 at 2:59 pm
“David,If you’re serious about “remaking the conservative party” the best thing you could do is take the nearest exit door out.
And take the RINOS and other faux conservatives with you as well”
…………..Personally I hope this happens because then you’ll have base of around 25% of the electorate and will be able to push that up into the mid thirties during elections………..and thus remain out of power until you come to your senses………I’ve become convinced this is the only way the GOP recovers……a series of Alf Landon/Barry Goldwater elections……….you could say we’ve had two I think it’s going to take four or five
41 badcandy // Jul 28, 2009 at 5:04 pm
“ottovbvs // Jul 28, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Personally I hope this happens because then you’ll have base of around 25% of the electorate and will be able to push that up into the mid thirties during elections………..and thus remain out of power until you come to your senses”
Real conservatives will gladly take that 25% as a foundation for a traditional conservative Republican party over the political surrender monkeys any day of the week. We can certainly build on that. In fact for anyone but the visually challenged it’s apparent in the polls the winds are already changing and that current is noticeably to the right .
As to your “remaining out of power till we gather our senses” let’s keep in mind that we tried your middle of the road approach Frum suggest in supporting moderate political candidates and ideals the last election cycle and got our asses handed to us.
42 Frum to RepubliCons: Quit Whining! | WNYmedia.net // Jul 29, 2009 at 6:54 am
[...] Whether you agree with Frum’s underlying premise or not, this is truth: It is also to act and look like sore losers. If America has been sliding gently but irresistibly into soft despotism, where were all the valiant defenders of liberty before November of 2008? Soft despotism begins to look less like a profound sociological trend, more like undulations of the sine curve: It’s despotism when we lose, freedom when we win. We should have more confidence in the people and the country than this. We should also have more charity to our political opponents – who after all are contending with hideous problems bequeathed to them by … by … well suddenly we Republicans cannot seem to remember who preceded Barack Obama in office. To listen to us, you’d think that the bailouts and takeovers started on January 20, 2009, not the previous March. You’d never know that TARP was supported by almost every Republican commentator, including the editors of National Review. Or that Vice President Cheney argued urgently in favor of the rescue of the Detroit automakers. Or that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac enjoyed the backing of Republican as well as Democratic lawmakers. [...]
43 Quit Whining! // Jul 29, 2009 at 8:28 am
[...] This is part one in a series. Click here for part two. [...]
44 Quit Whining 4 // Jul 29, 2009 at 9:11 am
[...] is part four in a series, read part one here, part two here and part three [...]
45 In da Buff (Buffalo, New York) – Of Asses and Elephants: Whinin’ and Dinin’ Edition // Jul 29, 2009 at 10:01 am
[...] Buffalo Pundit posted a link to a piece by David Frum on the New Majority called Quit Whining. [...]
46 In da Buff (Buffalo, New York) – Of Asses and Elephants: Whinin’ and Dinin’ Edition // Jul 29, 2009 at 10:01 am
[...] Buffalo Pundit posted a link to a piece by David Frum on the New Majority called Quit Whining. [...]
47 ottovbvs // Jul 29, 2009 at 10:59 am
badcandy // Jul 28, 2009 at 5:04 pm
“In fact for anyone but the visually challenged it’s apparent in the polls the winds are already changing and that current is noticeably to the right . ”
………..Oh you mean Obama’s appro has fallen from the high sixties to the high fifties (he won with 53%) and that’s really only because he’s being dragged down by a the south……..I can tell you aren’t a very sophisticated reader of polls but you should look at the regional breakdowns because they are scary for Republicans ………Republican id is at historic lows and Republican appro overall and on issues is in the low thirties……At the moment the GOP is on the way to becoming a 35% of the vote regional party…….so keep up the good work……..I want the GOP to re-emerge but it’s only going to do that when ideas which appeal to you are no longer dominant
48 Morning Skim: Iraq Attacks, Stock Signals, Conservative Despair and More - The Opinionator Blog - NYTimes.com // Jul 29, 2009 at 12:20 pm
[...] wrong politically, wrong psychologically, wrong morally.” In the second he wrote, “As wrong and harmful as the Obama administration’s plans are, the administration is playing by the rules of the game. [...]
49 sinz54 // Jul 29, 2009 at 7:04 pm
MFarmer sez: “Moderates need to decide what they stand for, instead of, ironically in this case, whining about the faction they dislike.”
I’m center-right, and I know exactly what I stand for. I’ve stated my principles (which underlie policy) several times on this blog. But I don’t run this blog
David Frum has never set forth the principles of his New Majority philosophy. What is his stand on tax cuts vs. budget balance? Interventionism abroad vs. non-interventionism? Science vs. religion and ethics? Just to name a few.
He’s never explained himself in just a couple of concise paragraphs; and as a result, New Majority keeps wobbling around.
50 sinz54 // Jul 29, 2009 at 7:09 pm
badcandy: Here’s a question for you:
Hypothetically: If Sarah Palin becomes the GOP nominee for President in 2012, and then goes on to lose to Obama in a landslide, will you then admit you blew it, and let us center-rightists like Frum try it our way?
After all, nobody can call Sarah Palin a RINO. So if she loses too, what then?
51 barker13 // Jul 29, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Re: Sinz54 // Jul 29, 2009 at 7:09 pm –
Let me see if I get the underlying Sinz… er… “logic.”
(*SNORT*) (Here goes…!)
Kerry the liberal Democrat lost in 2004 so therefore the Democrats should have run a more conservative Democrat in ‘08 to avoid losing to McCain, which Obama – who is arguably Left of Kerry – did.
(Hold it! Hold everything! Obama didn’t lose… he WON…)
(*SCRATCHING MY HEAD*)
Oh, well… so much for “Sinz Logic.”
(*CHUCKLE*)
BILL
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