RSS Feed MenuFor government to give, it must first take.
This is why governments impose taxes, fees, and fines. Before government can give anyone anything, it must first take something from someone else.
It’s important to remember that as we watch government workers who’ve shut down the Wisconsin state capitol to protest proposed changes to their health insurance, pension benefits, and collective bargaining rules.
The reaction of government workers in Wisconsin and other states where governors are beginning to stand up to government unions shows they do not understand or don’t care that for them to have jobs, people who do not work for government have money taken from them.
Several decades ago government workers typically received lower pay but more lavish health insurance, earlier and bigger pension benefits, and greater job protections such as tenure for teachers.
But for the past 30 years government workers have enjoyed far bigger pay increases than people who work in the private sector. And as the benefits of government workers have become even more lavish, those for private-sector workers have been reduced.
Last year the Bureau of Economic Analysis released data showing average compensation in the private sector was $59,909 in 2008, including $50,028 in wages and $9,881 in benefits. Average compensation in the public sector was $67,812, including $52,051 in wages and $15,761 in benefits.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics measures things differently and shows an even bigger gap: Total compensation per hour of $39.66 in the public sector versus $27.42 in the private sector in June 2009. That’s a 45 percent total compensation advantage for the public sector. The public sector enjoyed a 34 percent advantage in pay and a huge 70 percent advantage in benefits.
This BLS compensation gap is bigger because it measures by hours worked instead of simply total pay and benefits. Full-time private-sector workers averaged 2,050 hours of work annually compared with 1,825 hours for government workers.
A favorite canard of government worker apologists is to claim government jobs cannot be fairly compared to private-sector jobs and that today’s government workers need more education than typical private-sector workers and therefore should be more highly compensated.
But how’s this for an apples-to-apples comparison: teachers.
We have public schools, private schools, and parochial schools. Virtually everywhere, teachers in the public schools have higher total compensation than their local counterparts in private and parochial schools.
We can break teachers into subsets of teaching areas if you’d like to drill down farther. Which driver’s education teachers do you think receive higher pay, more lavish health insurance, and richer pension benefits—the ones who work for your local high school district or those who work for the local private driving school? Hey, you guessed right!
The first decade of this century saw the slowest economic growth of any decade since the Great Depression. Millions of private-sector workers have lost jobs, but government workers have barely been touched in comparison.
Millions of other private-sector workers have seen their pay frozen or cut and benefits cut, eliminated, or made more expensive than ever. In local and state governments, by contrast, workers have continued to receive pay raises and lavish pension benefits, and they continue to pay relatively little or nothing for health insurance and other benefits.
And all of it—the jobs, the pay raises, the pensions, the health benefits, the sick days, the workers compensation insurance, the paid vacations—all of it, every penny of it, comes from the private-sector workers who earn less, receive fewer benefits, and have almost none of the job protections that government workers enjoy.
I hope government workers who read this might understand why things cannot continue as they have these past few decades. Government workers are bleeding the rest of us dry.
The Merchant of Venice Beach // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:01 pm
unkownone: Corporate profits are at record highs while real wages are stagnant or falling.
While I like your posting, these two are not directly related. A lot of the corporate profits are derived in overseas markets. For example, Yum Brands has thousands of KFC’s in China that rake up healthy profits but many of the supplies are also based in China; the chicken farms, etc. Now if you want to argue that Yum Brands should pay their Chinese workers more money, that is fine by me but it won’t help one US worker at all, and if Yum Brands does pay their Chinese workers more that leaves less profits to be shared with the US based shareholders, leaving Americans less well off.
Armstp: Average government sector jobs are much different than average private sector jobs.
I don’t think so. For example my wife works part time at a Public Nursing home and part time at a private nursing home. Her pay and duties are roughly comparable, as would the benefits be if she became a full time worker. The only difference is how the nursing homes are run. The private nursing home is financed by the Government (for the most part) and run for profit. The public nursing home is financed by the Government and is non profit, and takes in those that private nursing homes don’t want to. There is also a higher standard of care expected at the Public nursing home (some private nursing homes are nightmares)
Now is my wife a parasite when she works at the Public nursing home but a noble worker when she does it at the private one? That jackass Stanek would say yes, but for reality based people the notion is absurd. The Public nursing home fulfills a vital function, to take in the elderly that the private nursing homes are not required to. Stanek might be an evil little troll who prefers they just die on the street, thank God most Americans are not like this though.
sdspringy // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:02 pm
The employee cost, ie.. wages, benefits, pension, are by far the greatest expense for either corporate or government. That is why whether corporate or government the first cost cutting measure is always directed at the employee.
That is why Obama froze Federal employee wages for two years. And did you know Federal employees do not have the right to negotiate wages, benefits, pension. Anyone who enters Federal service knows this going in and makes that decision based on other factors not just wage.
There can be no realistic explaination for public sector union wage, ie dues, being used to funnel money into political campaigns to elect politicians who then raise their wage. It was doomed to fail, it has failed, over 30 states faces immense budget problems because of this circle of corruption.
The response of Democrats is to cowardly run as in WI and now IN, proves that Democrats have absolutely no respect for the wishes of the voter. The voter elected their representatives and they currently represent a view the Democrats don’t like. To paraphrase Obama, “I won the election”, and that is what has happened in many states, Republicans won. If the citizens realize they made a mistake they can make the change in 2012.
The issue of teachers and all they do does not pull on my heart strings. Everyone who works, runs a business works long hours for pay they may feel is lower than they would prefer. Unlike everyone else teachers only have to work 8 months out of the year and their wage reflects that. Even teachers who work year round have the advantage if excessive time off. They wany more money work more hours, that is how everyone else has to do it.
politicalfan // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:10 pm
My heart strings are pulled. Can’t buy empathy, thanks for reminding me.
The Republicans have the votes and it will be a matter of time. As you have stated, “elections do have consequences.” I am sure the Republicans are ready for those consequences. Place people against each other, it is really good for moral. Superb for the state in the aftermath.
Rabiner // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:06 pm
JimBob:
“Simple. Government doesn’t produce any profits. It lives off the taxpayers.”
Government isn’t suppose to produce profits. Do you want government to produce ‘profits’ through high taxation? I doubt you do considering how you seem to hate anything provided by the public sector. Corporations don’t go into many of the services that government provides because you couldn’t make a profit at them anyways and it needs to be done by society for it to function appropriately.
If corporations ran all public universities, we’d have the best erectile dysfunction pill known to man and have no idea what cancer is.
JimBob // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:27 pm
When government unions strike, they strike against taxpayers. F.D.R. considered this “unthinkable and intolerable.”
Hope this helps
Raskolnik // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:10 pm
@sd
If that’s true, then why were the police and firefighters’ unions specifically exempted?
think4yourself // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:14 pm
Smarg & Jimbob like to throw bombs just to see other commentors heads explode.
I agree with the author that public employees have escaped much of the financial pain that hit the private sector over the last two years and that their wages and benefits are much better than before and lastly, that the unfunded defined benefit for pensions is a long term time bomb. I also feel like the public sector unions have contributed as much or more to the states long term deficit problem.
I don’t like Walker’s solution. In the states that there are Unions, those entities should be able to negotiate on a variety of issues, not just wage (which the governor has effectively capped to the rate of inflation). I also think it’s particularly egregious that he should try and split the Unions and the public by giving one group unlimited bargaining ability (public safety) and the other group virtually no bargaining ability.
Having said all that, if Walker had not taken a scorched-earth policy, do we think the Unions would have agreed to all of the cost savings/cuts in his bill? If the bill only asked for the Unions to contribute to their pension funds would the Unions have quickly agreed – I think not.
Not sure what the end game is. I hope Walker concedes and removes the Union busting provisions in this. In any case, every state in the nation has a problem with unfunded pensions. The Unions in those other states should take heart the lesson that if they aren’t a part of the solution for the states deficits, their advasaries will be happy to make them irrelevant.
Smargalicious // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:32 pm
I understand what you’re saying, but we’re not talking about bleeding the greedy corporations–hence the topic, “bleeding the TAXPAYERS dry”.
The end game should be removing the union’s right to raise their salaries and perks at will through a mediator. In fact, public employees should NEVER have been allowed to unionize in the first place.
Wherever there are unions, there is corruption, greed, extortion, and empty treasuries.
Enough is enough.
JimBob // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Yes, bust the public sector unions. FDR thought they were an abomination.
“Union contracts make it next to impossible to reward excellent teachers or fire failing ones. Union contracts give government employees gold-plated benefits – at the cost of higher taxes and less spending on other priorities. The alternative to Walker’s budget was kicking 200,000 children off Medicaid. ”
Take your choice parasites. Do you really want to kick 200 thousand poor kids off the medicaid rolls.
Traveler // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Thinker,
At last, another poster that recognizes the issue for what it is. We got major deficit problems, and unions have not been the solution, at least so far. Of course decades of “trickle down” tax theory is by far the major, and more insidious, reason for the states’ finances. As an example, we have a $4b deficit in PA, yet we have no tax on the Marcellus shale gas operators, which would bring in $200m per year if taxed like other states. Meanwhile they tear up thousand of square miles of natural lands for their wells and pipelines, while fouling the water. Pathetic. This is entirely due to the refug assholes. The only people I truly despise.
Smargalicious // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:34 pm
“This is entirely due to the refug assholes.”
Indeed.
What about the millions of fatherless welfare garbage, super welfare breeders, illegals and their anchor babies sucking public treasuries dry??
WE ARE BROKE, GENIUS.
politicalfan // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:46 pm
Welcome to the land of lower wages. Have you created any jobs lately with your tax cuts Smarg?
Smargalicious // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Did your Kenyan teleprompter reader create any jobs with his stimulus spendathon??
Answer: no. He got 4.5% unemplyment and turned it into 10+%.
Next.
Traveler // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:51 pm
And that is largely because of you refuglicans spending us into oblivion, while giving away the store, oh intelligent one. Why not lob another idiotic comment?
Hey Armstp, can you educate this troglodyte as to how much we have spent over the last four decades on welfare as opposed to wars, upper end tax cuts and subsidies for oil and farming? I am guessing it is well over an order of magnitude difference.
Smarg, I can sympathize with some of your perspectives, but come on get real. You are really looking foolish.
politicalfan // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:38 pm
(Smarg and JimBob) don’t actually make heads blow. I think many of us have heard similar arguments, we just disagree and don’t have an issue with saying so. (We are all adult here). Debate is actually a really good thing.
While we can understand the Governor’s strong hand here (think4yourself), he makes the best argument for the need of HCR. People who have insurance are not going to be able to afford it in some situations. Services that are going to be cut are also geared towards assisting those in need. (entitlements) He is opening a can of worms on more issues than just busting unions. With the economy being the way it is, there are some issues here that can impact many things if people can’t pay for their homes ect.
Some of us think the President overreached to get a health care bill passed. Surely, you don’t think that others will think the same thing here? There is winning in the sense of passing a bill but if the bill doesn’t work out the way that he hopes. Well, let’s just wait and see. I am not sure if I would be jumping up and down in Wisconsin. Sometimes the fallout is rough on both sides.
Xunzi Washington // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:39 pm
“Wherever there is laisse-faire capitalism, there is corruption, greed, extortion, and an ever stagnating wage for the worker while wages for the upper tier skyrocket without limit.”
Enough is enough!
WE ARE FED UP, GENIUS.
JimBob // Feb 22, 2011 at 2:04 pm
Whenever I hear someone like you I’m reminded of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A
Xunzi Washington // Feb 22, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Jimmy
I don’t mind capitalism. I mind naked capitalism, because capitalism in its purest form is not an ideology for me as it is for some people. That people get rich is fine with me. Work is good. Money is a good thing to have. What is bothersome is that structurally we are moving towards a world of stagnating wages for the non-owners (who work quite hard), and sky-rocketing profits for those at the top.
If that seems unreasonable to you, it’s hard to know what to say. There are also very good non-Phil Donahue reasons to think that this structural problem is something for people in a stable society to be worried about.
The Merchant of Venice Beach // Feb 22, 2011 at 1:48 pm
“Having said all that, if Walker had not taken a scorched-earth policy, do we think the Unions would have agreed to all of the cost savings/cuts in his bill? If the bill only asked for the Unions to contribute to their pension funds would the Unions have quickly agreed – I think not.” Christie got what he wanted in NJ without getting rid of CBR. Cuomo and Brown are also going at Union wages pretty strongly as well. Walker did not even make an attempt to negotiate. He had the votes so he decided to push through his agenda. Fair enough, but he can’t expect there not to be a backlash. Look at how Republicans have reacted to Obamacare, they tried everything they could do to stop it, and still are throwing lawsuit after lawsuit at it.
Honestly 22 // Feb 22, 2011 at 2:37 pm
[Take your choice parasites. Do you really want to kick 200 thousand poor kids off the medicaid rolls.]
It appears Walker is laying the ground work to dismantle Medicaid completely:
From Madison.com
“Lost in all the media coverage about worker rights is the fact that SB11/AB11 would grant unprecedented power to the administration to change Medicaid in Wisconsin without going through the full legislature. Allowing an unelected official (Department of Health Services Secretary Dennis Smith) to essentially make law in the state
And explaining exactly what this bill does to Medicaid is complicated, since the bill is not yet calling for actual cuts to the program, it is laying the groundwork to make such cuts easier for Walker and Health Secretary Smith, who as I reported last month advocated that states walk away entirely from Medicaid when he was a senior fellow at the conservative think tank The Heritage Foundation. “They’re going after these programs in a backdoor way by changing the process,” explains Lisa Lamkin of AARP.
http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/health_med_fit/vital_signs/article_7e749b2a-3c97-11e0-94d7-001cc4c03286.html
JimBob // Feb 22, 2011 at 2:50 pm
I’ve got news for ya, entitlements are going to be cut. There is no other way. Government has made promises that it can’t possibly keep. We’ve put this off for too long. We should have started dealing with this problem 25 years ago. People saw it coming but we just didn’t have the political courage. Republicans or Democrats.
Traveler // Feb 22, 2011 at 3:08 pm
JimBob,
I don’t think any of the posters here disagree with that elementary fact. And some of us like you and me are not at all that upset about it. About time we all paid our fair share, especially you
The real beef with the Walker Bill is several fold, the biggest one being the fact that it was rushed without a decent hearing. Testimony was cut off after a less than day on a bill that would:
1.) not only cut benefits (OK, but lets discuss what and how),
2) but also abrogate CB (not OK without a whole lot of discussion, and dubious even then),
3) and allow for no bid contracts on state-owned power plants (not OK at all- anyone smell Koch here?),
4) and allow the state to terminate Medicaid administratively (not OK at all without discussion).
So the cheeseheads got four for one in this abomination of the democratic process. That’s quite a bit of shenanigans. This will go over real well in the next election cycle.
Xunzi Washington // Feb 22, 2011 at 3:41 pm
Jimmy,
If the Republicans hadn’t started two unfunded wars topped off with massive tax cuts and passed Medicare Part D, how much trouble would our current entitlement system be in, exactly?
Elvis Elvisberg // Feb 23, 2011 at 12:09 pm
entitlements are going to be cut. There is no other way
Sure there are other ways. Return tax rates to 1990s levels– nothing punitive, not Eisenhower levels or anything, just back where they were last time the economy was working– stop occupying so many foreign countries, and we’re most of the way there; see: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=809205qv
As Traveler points out, people who don’t like Medicare and Medicaid say that we need to cut Medicare and Medicaid, but that don’t make it so.
armstp // Feb 22, 2011 at 4:41 pm
“As rising health insurance costs have eaten up most of the 3.8% total compensation target, teacher salaries in Wisconsin have stagnated and even declined. As a result, Wisconsin teacher salaries fell 6.8% from 1997-98 to 2007-08, when adjusted for inflation. For 2007-08, Wisconsin’s teacher salaries ranked 21th in the nation at $49,051, down from 20th the year before, and below the national average of $52,308.”
politicalfan // Feb 22, 2011 at 4:42 pm
Indiana just made a smart move. Sorry JimBob. While we agree that cuts need to be made. It is beyond stupid to ask people to give tax cuts to the wealthiest folks in our country and then smack down teachers.
Your Gov won by getting negotiations. His intent to union bust is out of the bag. He should take his win and play again. If I was getting a teacher’s salary, I would tell the kiddos. Come to my protest site, school is on.
adavid // Feb 22, 2011 at 4:48 pm
OK, what is a “local private driving school”?
think4yourself // Feb 22, 2011 at 5:04 pm
Armstp: “For 2007-08, Wisconsin’s teacher salaries ranked 21th in the nation at $49,051, down from 20th the year before, and below the national average of $52,308″.
Not picking on Wisconsin or teachers, but $50K grand a year, up till now full medical coverage and defined benefit pension fully funded by the state (taxpayers), sounds like a pretty good pay to me, especially with summers off (yes, I know, continuing education, other work responsibilities, etc. but it’s still a pretty good gig).
Not saying I agree with what Walker is doing – I don’t. Not saying we should cut taxes on the wealthy, I don’t agree with that either. But until now, the unions (both public sector and private) have been as much as the problem as those who they are negotiating with. If the teachers unions across the country had been fighting as hard over the last 10 years to do whatever it takes to get better student outcomes as they have for teacher benefits (senority over merit, impossible to fire, pay not based upon performance, etc.), the public would more likely be in their corner and Walker wouldn’t think he could pull this off.
armstp // Feb 22, 2011 at 11:07 pm
think4yourself,
And teachers deserve every penny of that $50,000 grand, given all those years of schooling and the important role they play in society. They get far less pay than say doctors and lawyers and hold at least as important a position.
By the way starting salaries for teachers are far below $50,000. Nationwide starting salaries for teachers are between $25,000 and $38,000. Average household income in the U.S. is $50,233. Median income for men is $43,000 to $45,000.
So teachers get paid about average to slightly above average in society as a whole and likely well below average for the education required to do the job and the importance of the job.
And as an aside there is a direct correlation between a State’s average teachers salaries and the quality of education in that State. The lowest paid Teachers are in State’s with the worst education performance.
Xunzi Washington // Feb 22, 2011 at 5:48 pm
I’m sorta with you, sorta not.
1. I’m not sure that teachers aren’t doing their best to fight for good student outcomes. Because they don’t agree to some of these things doesn’t mean they don’t fight for students.
2. Some of these issues above – like pay for performance – are riddled with problems. It’s not simply the case that teachers are saying “who gives a crap about performance”. There are real concerns about how these things would work, whether they could possibly be fair, and whether they actually lead to better outcomes.
I’m not saying that teachers unions don’t sometimes overreach. Sure they do. But I think the default narrative – that teachers refuse to do these “reasonable things” because they care more about themselves than they do about their students — is a lot of crap that Republicans have succeeded in planting into many people’s heads.
Which, in the end, is really why it is so easy for Walker to think he could pull this off.
Traveler // Feb 22, 2011 at 6:22 pm
Think and Xunzi:
Thanks for the reasoned discussion. To my way of thinking, teachers are among the hardest working and least appreciated of the public unions. It is almost impossible to develop metrics for performance when it is the parents and kids that are the real issue. Their situation is very different from many other public unions that have really pissed us off. As an example, see:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/21/AR2011022103775.html
Given these examples, plus the transgressions of private unions, (http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-166039.html), it is no surprise that the pendulum is swinging big time. So in part I share the glee of Smarg and JimBob, because this sort of parasitic behavior is finally coming to an end. We just cannot afford it anymore.
Now if there was a similar swing against corporate “citizens” I would be a very happy camper. Thier ripoffs put the unions to shame. But there is no swing there. the sheeples rule. This is a very bad time for america. When over 50% not only dont believe in evolution, they actually buy literal or figurative creationism, then we have major problems facing reality. And you cant blame that on the teachers. Its the Texas and Kansas school boards. Makes me still move to Australia. There’s a country where its all good mate. unions work their ass off there, and there’s very little self righteousness..
So I find myself supporting those with whom I have little respect (except teachers). Case of babies and bathwater I guess.
Slide // Feb 22, 2011 at 6:04 pm
oh oh.. . this doesn’t seem to working out the way Walker expected. The public seems to support the public employees by a huge majority. Can you say overreach?
The public strongly opposes laws taking away the collective bargaining power of public employee unions as a way to ease state financial troubles, according to a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll.
By Danny Johnston, AP
The poll found that 61% would oppose a law in their state similar to one being considered in Wisconsin, compared with 33% who would favor such a law.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wisconsin_N.htm
Traveler // Feb 22, 2011 at 7:02 pm
Slide,
This poll only proves my point about the electorate. Sure they prefer the idea of fair play for unions, but they are not willing to pay the taxes to cover the bill. We can’t have our cake and eat it anymore. The public is hopeless cattle. This is totally depressing.
Rabiner // Feb 22, 2011 at 6:21 pm
Think4yourself:
“If the teachers unions across the country had been fighting as hard over the last 10 years to do whatever it takes to get better student outcomes as they have for teacher benefits (senority over merit, impossible to fire, pay not based upon performance, etc.), the public would more likely be in their corner and Walker wouldn’t think he could pull this off”
Teachers Unions have been fighting for policies which improve education. They’ve fought for increased education funding, reduction of class sizes, and fought charter schools (which statistically have been shown to be worse than public schools). While you may not agree with everything they do (I don’t) they have fought for some measures that would improve education.
Traveler // Feb 22, 2011 at 6:49 pm
Damn, lost my reply when hit submit. Always do control c when posting on this erratic site. Anyway, Xunzi and Think have highlighted the teacher issue. They bust ass for the most part, but their results depend too much on the parents and kids beyond their control. So cannot get to bent out of shape re the teachers. OTOH, here’s what other unions have accomplished:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/21/AR2011022103775.html
and here’s a link to life in Philly with the so called private unions:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-166039.html
So the pendulum is now swinging big time, and for good reason. But i am worried that the baby is getting thrown out with the bathwater. And there’s no similar pushback against corporate “citizens”. Love those SCOTUS idiots. But this is not to be unexpected when over half the nation believes in literal or allegorical creationism. After all, if you can’t face facts, then how can you expect critical thinking of the electorate? Its enough to make you puke.
Traveler // Feb 22, 2011 at 6:50 pm
Damn, lost my reply when hit submit. Then resubmitted, and it didnt register either. So sent third test message and got to edit that. Something seriously messed up here. From now on, always do control c when posting on this erratic site.
Anyway, Xunzi and Think have highlighted the teacher issue. They bust ass for the most part, but their results depend too much on the parents and kids beyond their control. So cannot get too bent out of shape regarding teachers.
OTOH, here’s what other public unions have accomplished:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/21/AR2011022103775.html
and here’s a link to life in Philly with the so called private unions:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-166039.html
So the pendulum is now swinging big time, and for good reason. But there’s no similar pushback against corporate “citizens”. Love those SCOTUS idiots. But this is not to be unexpected when over half the nation believes in literal or allegorical creationism. After all, if it can’t face facts, then how can you expect critical thinking from the electorate? Its enough to make you puke. This is what we get for our education. Did you all see the post about 60% of teachers not contesting creationism? Most of that is just hunkering down, so I don’t blame teachers. I blame their clients. Us.
Given this environment, we deserve all the shit we bring down on ourselves. All too often, I am ashamed to be an American. There are just too many of us that are the most ignorant arrogant assholes to ever walk this planet.
Traveler // Feb 23, 2011 at 6:39 am
This was a modification, not a new post. Odd things going on here.
valkayec // Feb 22, 2011 at 9:48 pm
The governor is being funded by a number of very right wing groups in his…wait for it…second attempt to eliminate unions. His campaign against the unions has absolutely nothing to do with fiscal responsibility. It’s all about hatred of unions. Here’s who’s funding him and why:
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/21/zombie-johnbirch-walker/
think4yourself // Feb 23, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Nice discussion, thanks. I attended both public and private schools and have had my kids in both public and private schools. Neither have all the answers. I have found great, caring conscienscious teachers in both systems. I have also found teachers in both systems who aren’t as commited to my children getting an outstanding education as I am. I’m blessed with children (so far) that like school (1st and 7th grade), good readers, good grades, etc. My wife and I are seriously involved with our kids education, both formally in school and informally (learning is where you find it).
When your child’s kindergarten teacher tells you that your kid is learning math too fast which is bad because they will be bored in first grade, and the 6th grade teacher tells you that if you want your kid to have a chance to get into a top college maybe better choose a different school – it’s hard to contain a violent reaction.
While I believe that unions have done a tremendous service over the last 70 years to creating safe working conditions and creating the middle class (yes read “A Peoples History of the United States”)- they have also been a part of creating a culture that says let’s see how little we can do for as much benefits as possible. It’s not an ownership mentality. I guess I can’t fault the unions who were formed to create benefits for workers, just like I shouldn’t fault the NRA for focusing only on expanding rights for gun owners rather than recognizing that guns have consequences with unacceptably high rates of deaths and injuries from firearms. I have and like guns, I’m not arguing against guns, I’m arguing that the NRA is not a part of the solution to gun deaths and injuries and unions have been short-sighted to focus only on expanding benefits of their membership without recognizing that has consequences for others.
I don’t think unions are bad. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out. As for teachers, I just wish more of them were as passionate about providing excellence in education for my kids as I am.
Xunzi Washington // Feb 23, 2011 at 4:03 pm
Think: I also have kids in public school. Much as this sort of thing makes me mad too, this is NOT a result of unions. This is a result of the limitations of public schooling. Apples and oranges. Public schools — by the “outcomes assessment” rules not written by teachers — require getting students to pass literacy and math goals. That’s how outcomes are written. Not getting students who are already doing that to excel. It’s about getting students under the bar to the bar, not getting those above it further above it.
I would agree that it would be nice if outcomes were measured differently, but they are not, and that’s not the fault of teachers or of teacher’s unions. That’s the inherent problem with a ‘one size fits all’ model of education.
Gramps // Feb 23, 2011 at 7:24 pm
@ JimBob // Feb 22, 2011 at 2:50 pm
I gotta luv yah Jimbo…
You and GWB…
Yes you gents…
Yah… took all my SS payments out of Al Gore’s “lock box” and paid fer your sorry ‘effin’ War in Iraq, to find WND’s that never existed!
Don’t yah just luv, all them Yale and Harvard “legacy graduates” that make politics so special in the good olde US of A…?
I DON’T…!
Gramps // Feb 23, 2011 at 8:08 pm
[blockquote]think4yourself // Feb 23, 2011 at 2:58 pm
“When your child’s kindergarten teacher tells you that your kid is learning math too fast which is bad because they will be bored in first grade, and the 6th grade teacher tells you that if you want your kid to have a chance to get into a top college maybe better choose a different school – it’s hard to contain a violent reaction.”[/blockquote]
That brings back memories…my dear Mother, was a teacher in a one-room school house in NE Wisconsin. She had to get to school early enough [about 6AM] to build a fire in the wood stove so the temperature wouldn’t be below zero, when the students arrived.
Many of her olde students have actually told me, how much they appreciated her loving commitment as their teacher.
She was always a very “special, caring, Mother” and wonderful teacher. She had taught me how to observe the spelling and sound out and pronounce word’s phonetically.
My Father subscribed to the Chicago Tribune, that we received by rural mail delivery. I could read all of the words, [phonetically] as they were printed in the pictorial, fold-out, section of the newspaper, before I went to first grade. They were mostly related to WW2. Obviously I didn’t understand all their meanings, but my dear Mother, was working on that too…
Thank you, MOM…!
Gramps // Feb 23, 2011 at 8:21 pm
Someone once asked me…”So how weren’t you not totally bored when you went to school?”
Hey my first grade teacher Ms Lundberg and my second grade teacher Ms Loop, had me helping other kids learning phonics…I had a great time, in school!