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	<title>Comments on: Public Funding Means Less Choice</title>
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	<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice</link>
	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: E.D. Kain</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice/comment-page-1#comment-72327</link>
		<dc:creator>E.D. Kain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15888#comment-72327</guid>
		<description>Thanks to everyone for commenting.  

The long and short of this thing is: previously to these new rules, religious organizations were exempt from a bunch of regulations and rules that protect against discrimination.  This was done basically to protect religious liberty.  

These new rules change that, and require that the Catholic Church officially starts providing benefits and services to LGBT people.  However you feel about that issue, you need to also understand that this is the state telling a religious organization what to do even if it conflicts with its religious beliefs.  That&#039;s the issue here.  The Catholic Church isn&#039;t saying that if gay marriage is passed into law that they&#039;ll pull all their charities.  It&#039;s the D.C. city council who is threatening to pull contracts from the church if the church doesn&#039;t change. 

Blaming the church is just taking the easy way out.  And I &lt;i&gt;disagree&lt;/i&gt; with the Church on its position toward gays.  So there it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to everyone for commenting.  </p>
<p>The long and short of this thing is: previously to these new rules, religious organizations were exempt from a bunch of regulations and rules that protect against discrimination.  This was done basically to protect religious liberty.  </p>
<p>These new rules change that, and require that the Catholic Church officially starts providing benefits and services to LGBT people.  However you feel about that issue, you need to also understand that this is the state telling a religious organization what to do even if it conflicts with its religious beliefs.  That&#8217;s the issue here.  The Catholic Church isn&#8217;t saying that if gay marriage is passed into law that they&#8217;ll pull all their charities.  It&#8217;s the D.C. city council who is threatening to pull contracts from the church if the church doesn&#8217;t change. </p>
<p>Blaming the church is just taking the easy way out.  And I disagree with the Church on its position toward gays.  So there it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin B</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice/comment-page-1#comment-72235</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15888#comment-72235</guid>
		<description>&quot;provision of services to the services&quot; should be &quot;provision of services to the &lt;i&gt;public&lt;/i&gt;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;provision of services to the services&#8221; should be &#8220;provision of services to the public&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin B</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice/comment-page-1#comment-72211</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15888#comment-72211</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Even without Government funding, the moment that a Church runs a secular charitable function (like adoption services), it may be forced to comply with Government social edicts:&lt;/blockquote&gt;
One difference between the situation with adoption services in Massachusetts and homeless services in DC is that the adoption service wanted to illegally discriminate in providing those services.    If the church wanted to discriminate against homeless gay people (or black people, or Jewish people, or any other protected class) --which I have no reason to suspect they do-- then they would be in the same situation in DC.

There is a grey area where the church ends and the public begins.  But I&#039;m comfortable with the church&#039;s hiring policies being within the church&#039;s sphere, and the provision of services to the services being part of the public (and subject to the public&#039;s laws).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even without Government funding, the moment that a Church runs a secular charitable function (like adoption services), it may be forced to comply with Government social edicts:<br />
One difference between the situation with adoption services in Massachusetts and homeless services in DC is that the adoption service wanted to illegally discriminate in providing those services.    If the church wanted to discriminate against homeless gay people (or black people, or Jewish people, or any other protected class) &#8211;which I have no reason to suspect they do&#8211; then they would be in the same situation in DC.</p>
<p>There is a grey area where the church ends and the public begins.  But I&#8217;m comfortable with the church&#8217;s hiring policies being within the church&#8217;s sphere, and the provision of services to the services being part of the public (and subject to the public&#8217;s laws).</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice/comment-page-1#comment-72209</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15888#comment-72209</guid>
		<description>Kevin B: &lt;blockquote&gt; To see them coerced by the government is a reminder that separation of church and state goes in both directions. Government funding of religious charities is a threat to that separation. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Even without Government funding, the moment that a Church runs a secular charitable function (like adoption services), it may be forced to comply with Government social edicts:

In Massachusetts where I live, Catholic Charities had been running the oldest and most successful adoption service for orphan children.  But they refused to place orphan children with gay couples, asserting that this would be against their religious principles.  About 10 years ago, a gay couple successfully sued them in court; the court ruled that Catholic Charities had to place children with gay couples or else be punished for violating state antidiscrimination laws.

Catholic Charities, forced by a government edict to violate its religious principles, had no choice:  They shut down their adoption service entirely, rather than be forced to violate their religious principles about gay parenting. And that destroyed the oldest and best adoption service for orphan children in Massachusetts.

This was a clear case of the state forcing a church to do things against its religious principles, which violates the Establishment Clause in my opinion.  The utter hypocrisy of liberals cheering such a court ruling while always waving the mantra of &quot;separation of church and state&quot; was revealed for everybody to see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin B:  To see them coerced by the government is a reminder that separation of church and state goes in both directions. Government funding of religious charities is a threat to that separation.<br />
Even without Government funding, the moment that a Church runs a secular charitable function (like adoption services), it may be forced to comply with Government social edicts:</p>
<p>In Massachusetts where I live, Catholic Charities had been running the oldest and most successful adoption service for orphan children.  But they refused to place orphan children with gay couples, asserting that this would be against their religious principles.  About 10 years ago, a gay couple successfully sued them in court; the court ruled that Catholic Charities had to place children with gay couples or else be punished for violating state antidiscrimination laws.</p>
<p>Catholic Charities, forced by a government edict to violate its religious principles, had no choice:  They shut down their adoption service entirely, rather than be forced to violate their religious principles about gay parenting. And that destroyed the oldest and best adoption service for orphan children in Massachusetts.</p>
<p>This was a clear case of the state forcing a church to do things against its religious principles, which violates the Establishment Clause in my opinion.  The utter hypocrisy of liberals cheering such a court ruling while always waving the mantra of &#8220;separation of church and state&#8221; was revealed for everybody to see.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin B</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice/comment-page-1#comment-72201</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15888#comment-72201</guid>
		<description>esurience:  I doubt that the Catholic Church will stop doing charity.   It&#039;s just that the money from the government comes with conditions that they don&#039;t want to accept.  

If I were using government grants to teach sex education to high school students, and the government imposed a new rule that required anyone receiving those grants to teach abstinence ONLY (no safer sex, no contraception), I would try to find my funding elsewhere.

Government funds are a way for government to control what people do.  If states want highway funds from the federal government they may have to lower speed limits, or raise the drinking age.

I think mainstream churches will come around on gay marriage eventually due to changes in attitude within the churches themselves.    To see them coerced by the government is a reminder that separation of church and state goes in both directions.  Government funding of religious charities is a threat to that separation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>esurience:  I doubt that the Catholic Church will stop doing charity.   It&#8217;s just that the money from the government comes with conditions that they don&#8217;t want to accept.  </p>
<p>If I were using government grants to teach sex education to high school students, and the government imposed a new rule that required anyone receiving those grants to teach abstinence ONLY (no safer sex, no contraception), I would try to find my funding elsewhere.</p>
<p>Government funds are a way for government to control what people do.  If states want highway funds from the federal government they may have to lower speed limits, or raise the drinking age.</p>
<p>I think mainstream churches will come around on gay marriage eventually due to changes in attitude within the churches themselves.    To see them coerced by the government is a reminder that separation of church and state goes in both directions.  Government funding of religious charities is a threat to that separation.</p>
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		<title>By: jakester</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice/comment-page-1#comment-72192</link>
		<dc:creator>jakester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 06:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15888#comment-72192</guid>
		<description>The reason why health care prices rise so steeply is because there is no incentive in the system, it is all dictated by the government who doesn&#039;t care. We have simple wheelchairs that anyone can build going for 2K because they are some protected mercantile business. There is no competitios so prices will rise and rise as long as third parties pay the bills.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason why health care prices rise so steeply is because there is no incentive in the system, it is all dictated by the government who doesn&#8217;t care. We have simple wheelchairs that anyone can build going for 2K because they are some protected mercantile business. There is no competitios so prices will rise and rise as long as third parties pay the bills.</p>
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		<title>By: esurience</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice/comment-page-1#comment-72169</link>
		<dc:creator>esurience</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15888#comment-72169</guid>
		<description>Kevin B: I&#039;m not claiming that the Catholic Church doesn&#039;t have a right to stop doing charity. But the charity programs that the Catholic Church runs are one of its only redeeming virtues. If Catholics stop providing charity... what exactly are they good for? And how is that even remotely Christ-like?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin B: I&#8217;m not claiming that the Catholic Church doesn&#8217;t have a right to stop doing charity. But the charity programs that the Catholic Church runs are one of its only redeeming virtues. If Catholics stop providing charity&#8230; what exactly are they good for? And how is that even remotely Christ-like?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin B</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice/comment-page-1#comment-72160</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15888#comment-72160</guid>
		<description>esurience:  So the Catholic Church isn&#039;t really deciding whether the homeless get help.  As you say, the DC city council can pay someone else to do it.  The church is just deciding whether &lt;i&gt;it&lt;/i&gt; is going to be the one that the government pays to provide that help.

Though I think the church&#039;s position is the wrong one, and also bad p.r.,  I think they have the right to have a position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>esurience:  So the Catholic Church isn&#8217;t really deciding whether the homeless get help.  As you say, the DC city council can pay someone else to do it.  The church is just deciding whether it is going to be the one that the government pays to provide that help.</p>
<p>Though I think the church&#8217;s position is the wrong one, and also bad p.r.,  I think they have the right to have a position.</p>
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		<title>By: esurience</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice/comment-page-1#comment-72139</link>
		<dc:creator>esurience</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15888#comment-72139</guid>
		<description>Kevin B: Not really, they&#039;re paying the Catholic Church to provide certain services, they can pay someone else. I like how you ignore my point about this action by the Catholic Church being immoral though. You also see it as indefensible, presumably? This should be treated as any hostage/terrorism situation... we don&#039;t negotiate with terrorists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin B: Not really, they&#8217;re paying the Catholic Church to provide certain services, they can pay someone else. I like how you ignore my point about this action by the Catholic Church being immoral though. You also see it as indefensible, presumably? This should be treated as any hostage/terrorism situation&#8230; we don&#8217;t negotiate with terrorists.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin B</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/public-funding-means-less-choice/comment-page-1#comment-72121</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15888#comment-72121</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;They’re holding a gun to the head of the homeless, and telling the Washington DC city council that they’re going to SHOOT if the DC council votes for marriage equality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Now it&#039;s up to the DC city council to decide if marriage equality is more important than helping the homeless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They’re holding a gun to the head of the homeless, and telling the Washington DC city council that they’re going to SHOOT if the DC council votes for marriage equality.<br />
Now it&#8217;s up to the DC city council to decide if marriage equality is more important than helping the homeless.</p>
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