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	<title>Comments on: Obama&#8217;s New Energy Policy: More Oil from Overseas</title>
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	<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad</link>
	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: Carney</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad/comment-page-2#comment-81970</link>
		<dc:creator>Carney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 02:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=21469#comment-81970</guid>
		<description>ltoro1 said,  &quot;Carney, I haven’t made up my mind on biofuels. On one hand they actually work and are simple to manufacture. My 18 year old brother has succesfully made biodiesel for example, but I do not know we have the capacity to actually replace petroleum. I would assume we would need genetically modified crops to do it.&quot;

LToro1, read the book &quot;Energy Victory&quot; by former NASA nuclear engineer and rocket scientist Robert Zubrin or visit his website at EnergyVictory.net.

You&#039;re right that ethanol can&#039;t by itself replace petroleum, but together with methanol it can.

Methanol can be made from natural gas, coal, or any biomass without exception, including crop residues such as stems leaves, and cobs (multiplying the per-acre alcohol fuel yield of corn ethanol farms); fast growing weed plants such as kudzu and water hyacinths; even trash and sewage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ltoro1 said,  &#8220;Carney, I haven’t made up my mind on biofuels. On one hand they actually work and are simple to manufacture. My 18 year old brother has succesfully made biodiesel for example, but I do not know we have the capacity to actually replace petroleum. I would assume we would need genetically modified crops to do it.&#8221;</p>
<p>LToro1, read the book &#8220;Energy Victory&#8221; by former NASA nuclear engineer and rocket scientist Robert Zubrin or visit his website at EnergyVictory.net.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that ethanol can&#8217;t by itself replace petroleum, but together with methanol it can.</p>
<p>Methanol can be made from natural gas, coal, or any biomass without exception, including crop residues such as stems leaves, and cobs (multiplying the per-acre alcohol fuel yield of corn ethanol farms); fast growing weed plants such as kudzu and water hyacinths; even trash and sewage.</p>
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		<title>By: ltoro1</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad/comment-page-2#comment-81844</link>
		<dc:creator>ltoro1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 03:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=21469#comment-81844</guid>
		<description>I agree, knowledge truly is power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, knowledge truly is power.</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad/comment-page-2#comment-81832</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 00:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=21469#comment-81832</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Thank you for the compliment balconesfault.&lt;/b&gt;

I like learning new things.  There&#039;s no value in ignorance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the compliment balconesfault.</p>
<p>I like learning new things.  There&#8217;s no value in ignorance.</p>
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		<title>By: ltoro1</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad/comment-page-2#comment-81829</link>
		<dc:creator>ltoro1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 00:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=21469#comment-81829</guid>
		<description>Thank you for the compliment balconesfault.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the compliment balconesfault.</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad/comment-page-2#comment-81823</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 20:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=21469#comment-81823</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Denmark: 43,100 square kilometers
United States: 9,827,000 square kilometers (228 times the area of Denmark)&lt;/b&gt;

Well, nobody is going to make the pitch that electric cars will be the vehicle of choice in Wyoming, or Montana, or Nebraska, or Idaho, or Alaska. 

I&#039;d imagine we&#039;re more likely to see this development not across the nation, but in the more high density states, as well as high density metro areas in states with uneven population distribution.

The population density of Denmark is 128 persons/km2.   The combined population density of New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, Delaware, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Florida, Illinois, California, Indiana, Virginia plus DC is pretty comparable - at 101 persons/km2 - and represents a market of 144 million people, as opposed to 5.5 million Danes.  

&lt;b&gt;Not to mention the fact that America is so bankrupt on a national scale, with debts in the trillions of dollars, that we can’t afford to remake our society from top to bottom, as the Danes are planning to do.&lt;/b&gt;

Well, that was kind of the Chicago School plan, wasn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denmark: 43,100 square kilometers<br />
United States: 9,827,000 square kilometers (228 times the area of Denmark)</p>
<p>Well, nobody is going to make the pitch that electric cars will be the vehicle of choice in Wyoming, or Montana, or Nebraska, or Idaho, or Alaska. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d imagine we&#8217;re more likely to see this development not across the nation, but in the more high density states, as well as high density metro areas in states with uneven population distribution.</p>
<p>The population density of Denmark is 128 persons/km2.   The combined population density of New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, Delaware, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Florida, Illinois, California, Indiana, Virginia plus DC is pretty comparable &#8211; at 101 persons/km2 &#8211; and represents a market of 144 million people, as opposed to 5.5 million Danes.  </p>
<p>Not to mention the fact that America is so bankrupt on a national scale, with debts in the trillions of dollars, that we can’t afford to remake our society from top to bottom, as the Danes are planning to do.</p>
<p>Well, that was kind of the Chicago School plan, wasn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad/comment-page-2#comment-81797</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=21469#comment-81797</guid>
		<description>balconesfault: &lt;blockquote&gt; The Danes right now are engaging in a massive project to standardize an electric car with a lift out/drop in battery, and robot-operated change-out stations where a driver can pull in and within minutes have a fully charged battery dropped in. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Oh, brother.

Denmark:  43,100 square kilometers
United States:  9,827,000 square kilometers (228 times the area of Denmark)

Denmark:  2.3 million cars
United States:  254.4 million cars (110 times the number of cars in Denmark)

I was an engineer long enough to know that what works on a small scale doesn&#039;t work on a big scale.  Every order of magnitude increase involves qualitatively new considerations.  

Building ONE highway was easy. But building the Interstate Highway System took 25 years.

In this case, you would have to standardize and freeze the design of batteries (especially form factor and power output) quite early, or else they won&#039;t be interchangeable among all models of cars and trucks from now on into the future.  (The nice thing about today&#039;s gasoline is that just three grades of gasoline handle all makes and models of cars.)

If you standardize too early, you may bet on the wrong horse, like direct current, the Space Shuttle, BetaMax, DVD-HD, etc.

We are nowhere near being able to devise a standardized and ubiquitous infrastructure for electric cars.  Not to mention the fact that America is so bankrupt on a national scale, with debts in the trillions of dollars, that we can&#039;t afford to remake our society from top to bottom, as the Danes are planning to do.

For the next 20 years at least, the vast bulk of America&#039;s cars and trucks will still be powered by fossil fuels.  We ought to do research &amp; development on electric cars. But no one should commit to that yet because the technology to do it for a nation as vast and transportation-intensive as America does not yet exist cheaply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>balconesfault:  The Danes right now are engaging in a massive project to standardize an electric car with a lift out/drop in battery, and robot-operated change-out stations where a driver can pull in and within minutes have a fully charged battery dropped in.<br />
Oh, brother.</p>
<p>Denmark:  43,100 square kilometers<br />
United States:  9,827,000 square kilometers (228 times the area of Denmark)</p>
<p>Denmark:  2.3 million cars<br />
United States:  254.4 million cars (110 times the number of cars in Denmark)</p>
<p>I was an engineer long enough to know that what works on a small scale doesn&#8217;t work on a big scale.  Every order of magnitude increase involves qualitatively new considerations.  </p>
<p>Building ONE highway was easy. But building the Interstate Highway System took 25 years.</p>
<p>In this case, you would have to standardize and freeze the design of batteries (especially form factor and power output) quite early, or else they won&#8217;t be interchangeable among all models of cars and trucks from now on into the future.  (The nice thing about today&#8217;s gasoline is that just three grades of gasoline handle all makes and models of cars.)</p>
<p>If you standardize too early, you may bet on the wrong horse, like direct current, the Space Shuttle, BetaMax, DVD-HD, etc.</p>
<p>We are nowhere near being able to devise a standardized and ubiquitous infrastructure for electric cars.  Not to mention the fact that America is so bankrupt on a national scale, with debts in the trillions of dollars, that we can&#8217;t afford to remake our society from top to bottom, as the Danes are planning to do.</p>
<p>For the next 20 years at least, the vast bulk of America&#8217;s cars and trucks will still be powered by fossil fuels.  We ought to do research &amp; development on electric cars. But no one should commit to that yet because the technology to do it for a nation as vast and transportation-intensive as America does not yet exist cheaply.</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad/comment-page-2#comment-81771</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=21469#comment-81771</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;It really does not matter that the same asset can be depreciated by more than one entity at different times. Each entity can only depreciate an asset based on the cost they incurred to acquire it. &lt;/b&gt;

Thanks for the excellent presentation.  I actually wasn&#039;t aware that you have a taxable gain if the asset is sold for more than original cost less accumulated depreciation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It really does not matter that the same asset can be depreciated by more than one entity at different times. Each entity can only depreciate an asset based on the cost they incurred to acquire it. </p>
<p>Thanks for the excellent presentation.  I actually wasn&#8217;t aware that you have a taxable gain if the asset is sold for more than original cost less accumulated depreciation.</p>
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		<title>By: ltoro1</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad/comment-page-2#comment-81770</link>
		<dc:creator>ltoro1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=21469#comment-81770</guid>
		<description>Carney, I haven&#039;t made up my mind on biofuels.  On one hand they actually work and are simple to manufacture.  My 18 year old brother has succesfully made biodiesel for example, but I do not know we have the capacity to actually replace petroleum.  I would assume we would need genetically modified crops to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carney, I haven&#8217;t made up my mind on biofuels.  On one hand they actually work and are simple to manufacture.  My 18 year old brother has succesfully made biodiesel for example, but I do not know we have the capacity to actually replace petroleum.  I would assume we would need genetically modified crops to do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Carney</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad/comment-page-2#comment-81755</link>
		<dc:creator>Carney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 03:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=21469#comment-81755</guid>
		<description>You all are ignoring alcohol fuel, such as methanol and ethanol.  Transitioning to that is much easier and more practical than to any alternate fuel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You all are ignoring alcohol fuel, such as methanol and ethanol.  Transitioning to that is much easier and more practical than to any alternate fuel.</p>
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		<title>By: ltoro1</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/obamas-new-energy-policy-more-oil-from-abroad/comment-page-2#comment-81744</link>
		<dc:creator>ltoro1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=21469#comment-81744</guid>
		<description>Balconesfault, okay fair enough you are not necessarily in favor of eliminating the deduction of depreciation expense.  Just for the sake of accuracy let&#039;s try to clear up some of these terms.  Depreciation expense is really not a deduction (the term I used) or a credit (your term).  I leave the discussion or the difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit for another time.  Depreciation is the expense recognition for property, plant, and equipment.  A component of net income for the financial statements, taxable income for income taxes. 
 
Buildings are one of the very few depreciable assets that actually increase in value.  Land, while it may go up in value, is not depreciable for either financial statement purposes or tax purposes.  In most cases the value of an asset goes down as it is used.  It would not be inaccurate to say that it is being consumed.  It&#039;s just consumed over a period of time that is longer than one year or one accounting cycle.  For example, a truck purchased by UPS to make deliveries is capitalized at cost and is depreciated over its useful life for both for both financial statement purposes or tax purposes.  Note that useful life and/or the amount depreciated per year may be different for financial statement purposes or tax purposes.  Generally, we would expect the value of this truck to be less at the end of its useful life than it was on the day it was acquired.  In the event the asset is disposed of at a price greater than its carrying value or basis (original cost less accumulated depreciation) you would have a taxable gain.  For a C corporation the gain would be taxed at their corporate tax rate, for sole proprietors or pass-through entities (S-Corps, LLCs, LLPs, partnerships) the gain would flow through to the individual owners.  Ironically, if you were not allowed to depreciate an asset for tax purposes your basis in the asset would be higher resulting in a lower capital gain (possibly even a capital loss), resulting in a smaller tax liability.
 
It really does not matter that the same asset can be depreciated by more than one entity at different times.  Each entity can only depreciate an asset based on the cost they incurred to acquire it.  In the example of the UPS truck, if it were acquired by UPS at $40 depreciated over its life to $15K and sold a different delivery company for $15K, the second company could only depreciate up to $15K.  
 
Also, buildings which may increase in value over time, (current real estate bubble burst notwithstanding) will have wear and tear that needs to be accounted for over time.  I would wager that a 40 year old building would require significant renovations.  If these renovations either increased the value of the buildings and/or its useful life, they would also have to be capitalized and depreciate over time rather than expensed immediately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Balconesfault, okay fair enough you are not necessarily in favor of eliminating the deduction of depreciation expense.  Just for the sake of accuracy let&#8217;s try to clear up some of these terms.  Depreciation expense is really not a deduction (the term I used) or a credit (your term).  I leave the discussion or the difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit for another time.  Depreciation is the expense recognition for property, plant, and equipment.  A component of net income for the financial statements, taxable income for income taxes. </p>
<p>Buildings are one of the very few depreciable assets that actually increase in value.  Land, while it may go up in value, is not depreciable for either financial statement purposes or tax purposes.  In most cases the value of an asset goes down as it is used.  It would not be inaccurate to say that it is being consumed.  It&#8217;s just consumed over a period of time that is longer than one year or one accounting cycle.  For example, a truck purchased by UPS to make deliveries is capitalized at cost and is depreciated over its useful life for both for both financial statement purposes or tax purposes.  Note that useful life and/or the amount depreciated per year may be different for financial statement purposes or tax purposes.  Generally, we would expect the value of this truck to be less at the end of its useful life than it was on the day it was acquired.  In the event the asset is disposed of at a price greater than its carrying value or basis (original cost less accumulated depreciation) you would have a taxable gain.  For a C corporation the gain would be taxed at their corporate tax rate, for sole proprietors or pass-through entities (S-Corps, LLCs, LLPs, partnerships) the gain would flow through to the individual owners.  Ironically, if you were not allowed to depreciate an asset for tax purposes your basis in the asset would be higher resulting in a lower capital gain (possibly even a capital loss), resulting in a smaller tax liability.</p>
<p>It really does not matter that the same asset can be depreciated by more than one entity at different times.  Each entity can only depreciate an asset based on the cost they incurred to acquire it.  In the example of the UPS truck, if it were acquired by UPS at $40 depreciated over its life to $15K and sold a different delivery company for $15K, the second company could only depreciate up to $15K.  </p>
<p>Also, buildings which may increase in value over time, (current real estate bubble burst notwithstanding) will have wear and tear that needs to be accounted for over time.  I would wager that a 40 year old building would require significant renovations.  If these renovations either increased the value of the buildings and/or its useful life, they would also have to be capitalized and depreciate over time rather than expensed immediately.</p>
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