………..I can only agree…..Franco is a Jacobin with with whom there is no compromise…….I really do think he’s now basically where the base of the GOP stands…….it must be scaring the pants off the GOP establishment but there’s no way out for them……events will take their natural course

This is the central argument and neither of us will budge on this. You see those of us, naive perhaps, who believe in certain principles and that the country can’t keep moving in the leftward direction, slow or fast, are digging in our heels.

There is a tipping point where government gets so dominant that it takes over completely. We are very close to that point now. We have done things your way with Bush with Spector with Jeffords Hegel and others to have a “majority” but it is a paper majority. It isn’t real because we keep going left toward bigger government. There are many in the Republican party who do not understand the overall perils and seek to gain or maintain power by selectively voting and dealing within the boundaries of Statism and moving us closer to the brink.

I find it interesting that moderate Republicans believe that those of us who abhor the Democrat approach will seek refuge in the Republican party as it is currently constituted, that is for example that we will vote for a John McCain to keep an Obama out of office.

I didn’t vote for McCain because we would effectively have this same situation but in reverse. McCain probably would have been doing much of what Obama is and the Republican party would be getting the blame opening up a bigger landslide for Democrats in 2010 and 12. Then we would all be REALLY screwed. As it stands Obama will be defeated in 12 and Republicans will gain in 2010. Further the Republicans will be more Republican and less “Demlite”

I have no sympathy for the GOP. I have gone along in the past only as it pertains to the relative depravity of the Democrats, but I started to see that I was being held hostage and it gives the Republicans such as McCain too much power to go against my values and brazenly expect us to vote for them anyway because the alternative is worse.

It isn’t about “purity” it is about having some principles. Everything doesn’t have to mesh but there are some deal breakers. Fundamentally statism raising taxes and expanding the role of government, playing personal politics IE John McCain getting his face on tv because he bashes more conservative Republicans and the brand of politics practiced by Arlen Spector become simply too much to bear. Yes I want to purge these types out of the party. They do more damage than good by far.

Yet there are moderates I would support in many cases.

The GOP does not have my loyalty pledge and I don’t understand why many Republicans expect someone like me to go along with candidates who pledge to continue to expand government and tax and regulate us to death and are untrustworty to boot. (see Spector etc)

It is the same mentality that went into propping up failed corporations. If the GOP can’t learn to get a spine and oppose leftwing policies then they must be allowed to fail and not to be dysfunctionaly aided by running on the the lesser evil platform.

“But, you say ” Scozzafava wasn’t a Republican, she votes with Democrats 99% of the time.” You’ve trancended politics. Its become more important to have 3 “truly conservative” Republicans in Congress than a majority of unclean Republicans in Congress.”

This argument doesn’t take into account that a House of Representatives full of Scozzafavas will do NOTHING for the country and that we conservative have the power to deny the GOP certain candidates just like the Democrats deny certain candidates. See, y’all know the Democrats are going to deny and vote down certain candidates and that is what you are focused on and try to adapt…you are ALWAYS adapting to Democrats (Ohhh, our candidate can’t be pro-life Dems will vote him dowm…Oh dear, we have to have a candidate that reaches across the aisle, Dems insist on that….Ooooh, our candidate has to be liked by the media etc) Well, now y’all have another paradigm to consider whether conservatives will turn out for said candidate. That is what really bothers you that there is push back from previous allies. But the hypocrisy is that we “allies” are not considered we are taken for granted. This is a losing strategy for the GOP as we have seen in NY23 and then you get all bothered if we run our own candidate or stay home.

The country is learning -the hard way -what statist Democrats have in store for us. We conservatives that is, those of us who have an ideology, saw much earlier and much more clearly what the debate is really about, while the get-along Republicans were just padding their own coffers and telling us that Obama and his ilk are not leftists and there is nothing to be afraid of.

Ironic that Republicans who endorse Democrats never receive criticism from you guys while conservatives who don’t support Republicans do.

Scozzafava could have won this election if not for the public exorcism performed by Palin and Limbaugh. Both ignored local logistics and you now have a Democrat with the seat. But, you say ” Scozzafava wasn’t a Republican, she votes with Democrats 99% of the time.” You’ve trancended politics. Its become more important to have 3 “truly conservative” Republicans in Congress than a majority of unclean Republicans in Congress.

How then did Hoffman get so many more votes than the Republican in this district? How is it that the moderate didn’t generate enthusiasm despite the said moderate nature of the district? How in hell did a right-wing nut job come so close despite the so-called negatives as well as the Republican running crying into the arms of the benighted Democrat? Hmmm?

And tell me please who lost this election for Republicans? You moderates want your cake and eat it too. All of a sudden Hoffman is your candidate AFTER your original selection fails miserably. He lost but you moderate Republicans were also-rans coming in dead last.

Yes, it will go on and on and on. There was an excellent article here recently describing the premise of judging a candidate’s liberal/conservative bend depending on state. IMO opinion, its an excellent premise and one dittohead conservatives reject outright. Just as you can’t judge the furlong times on one horse run on a fast track against the furlong times of a horse run on a muddy track, you cannot judge a NY conservative against a Mississippi conservative. If you attempt to a run a Mississippi conservative , a person more concerned with social conservatism than fiscal conservatism, in a diverse state like New York, you can expect to lose – EVERY TIME.

But its in Rush Limbaugh’s national audience interest to dismiss the local logistics of a race. As long a Limbaugh is the strategy maker in the GOP, NY-23 is a template of things to come. Franco is a testament that it will go on and on and on and on…

Downside #1: candidate votes with Democrats on key issues

Downside #2: candidate gives cover for Democrats allowing their votes to be spun as “bi-partisan”, thus associating the Republican brand with outrageous and un-American legislation

Downside #3: As a candidate with no particular guiding principles, candidate is vulnerable to every and any influence and more easily corrupted in small and sometimes large ways.

Downside #4candidate can become toxic to the party in his/her attempt to hold onto power (see #3) and can damage the party brand by attacking other Republicans

And the fatal downside : candidate ends up switching parties anyway and/or endorsing Democrats and their agenda.

See Dede S. Arlen S. Chuck H. Colin P. Jim J.

“ottovbs, yes, it’s the best I can do. And, apparently, the best Obama could do as well.”

………One of these days you’re going to say somenthing serious beyond the bumper stickers……Franco above, god save me, is making an effort to say something original……I think he’s wrong but at least he’s trying……this bumper sticker stuff is so tedious

………..Franco all this rationalisation is just confirming my statement that the hard right is not going to be put out of countenance one bit by NY 23……..so there will many more Hoffmanns……..you and Kristol think party schisms are going to strengthen the party so who am I to disagree with you……it’s all part of a pattern that has to play out……it can’t be stopped