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	<title>Comments on: Never So Divided?</title>
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	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: greg_barton</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/never-so-divided/comment-page-1#comment-38607</link>
		<dc:creator>greg_barton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 00:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-38607</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a divide for you: Democrats and Independents have decided to live in the real world, and Republicans have decided to keep thinking they can bend reality to their will.  Like all village idiots we&#039;ll tolerate them and thank our lucky stars that they&#039;re no longer mayor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a divide for you: Democrats and Independents have decided to live in the real world, and Republicans have decided to keep thinking they can bend reality to their will.  Like all village idiots we&#8217;ll tolerate them and thank our lucky stars that they&#8217;re no longer mayor.</p>
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		<title>By: ktward</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/never-so-divided/comment-page-1#comment-39430</link>
		<dc:creator>ktward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 01:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39430</guid>
		<description>barker13:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;You&#039;re a head case.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now you&#039;re absurdly suggesting that you are either ...&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;1) Qualified to assess the ability of polling respondents to intelligently wage in on the issues, based on nothing but your own devoid-of-facts opinion, or&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;2) That you&#039;ve some kind of divine knowledge of the electorate&#039;s level of knowledge, intentions and motivations.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;You&#039;re letting your narcissistic fascination with your own opinion get in the way of legitimate discourse, which I was quite enjoying until I spotted you.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Why don&#039;t you let the big boys/gals take care of the commenting here- you go *SHRUG/CHUCKLE/SMILE* yourself happy over at townhall. They appreciate your kind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>barker13:</p>
<p>You&#8217;re a head case.</p>
<p>Now you&#8217;re absurdly suggesting that you are either &#8230;</p>
<p>1) Qualified to assess the ability of polling respondents to intelligently wage in on the issues, based on nothing but your own devoid-of-facts opinion, or</p>
<p>2) That you&#8217;ve some kind of divine knowledge of the electorate&#8217;s level of knowledge, intentions and motivations.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re letting your narcissistic fascination with your own opinion get in the way of legitimate discourse, which I was quite enjoying until I spotted you.</p>
<p>Why don&#8217;t you let the big boys/gals take care of the commenting here- you go *SHRUG/CHUCKLE/SMILE* yourself happy over at townhall. They appreciate your kind.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/never-so-divided/comment-page-1#comment-45721</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-45721</guid>
		<description>bloodstar:  That &quot;self-reinforcing cycle of purification&quot; was launched, and is being sustained, by a fallacious interpretation of history:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It has become practically an article of faith among die-hard Red State conservatives that the GOP lost the 2006 congressional election because the GOP base was so disgusted with GOP politicians that they stayed away from the polls, and did not vote or campaign actively for GOP candidates.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The consequence of that (if it were true) is that the GOP leadership must do more to mollify the GOP base in the future, by turning even more to the right.  That&#039;s why you hear these incessant calls from the GOP base for the GOP to &quot;return to conservative principles&quot;--because the base believes that men like McCain and even George W. Bush weren&#039;t conservative enough; and that only a &quot;true conservative&quot; (Sarah Palin?) would excite the base enough to get them to turn out in large numbers and win elections.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The problem is, that article of faith is false.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Exit polls confirm that in 2006, the GOP base did turn out in numbers nearly as high as in 2004. But the GOP lost the 2006 election anyway, due to a significant shift of moderate and Independent voters toward the Dems.  That was even more true in 2008, and besides that you had an even more massive shift of first-time voters toward the Dems.  So the consequences of that is that the GOP has to win back moderate and Independent voters, who would be more responsive to a more moderate message, especially on social issues.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But that article of faith persists.  Most likely because some popular figures in conservative media are continuing to spread it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bloodstar:  That &#8220;self-reinforcing cycle of purification&#8221; was launched, and is being sustained, by a fallacious interpretation of history:</p>
<p>It has become practically an article of faith among die-hard Red State conservatives that the GOP lost the 2006 congressional election because the GOP base was so disgusted with GOP politicians that they stayed away from the polls, and did not vote or campaign actively for GOP candidates.</p>
<p>The consequence of that (if it were true) is that the GOP leadership must do more to mollify the GOP base in the future, by turning even more to the right.  That&#8217;s why you hear these incessant calls from the GOP base for the GOP to &#8220;return to conservative principles&#8221;&#8211;because the base believes that men like McCain and even George W. Bush weren&#8217;t conservative enough; and that only a &#8220;true conservative&#8221; (Sarah Palin?) would excite the base enough to get them to turn out in large numbers and win elections.</p>
<p>The problem is, that article of faith is false.</p>
<p>Exit polls confirm that in 2006, the GOP base did turn out in numbers nearly as high as in 2004. But the GOP lost the 2006 election anyway, due to a significant shift of moderate and Independent voters toward the Dems.  That was even more true in 2008, and besides that you had an even more massive shift of first-time voters toward the Dems.  So the consequences of that is that the GOP has to win back moderate and Independent voters, who would be more responsive to a more moderate message, especially on social issues.</p>
<p>But that article of faith persists.  Most likely because some popular figures in conservative media are continuing to spread it.</p>
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		<title>By: bloodstar</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/never-so-divided/comment-page-1#comment-49638</link>
		<dc:creator>bloodstar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-49638</guid>
		<description>krove:&lt;br&gt;I&#039;d put Kentucky and Florida ahead of Pennsylvania personally, but I understand where you&#039;re coming from. The right turn in the republican party polling is because the party is shrinking in size, Unfortunately the entire cycle of purification is a self reinforcing one, and I can&#039;t see anything that is going to stop it in the near future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>krove:<br />I&#8217;d put Kentucky and Florida ahead of Pennsylvania personally, but I understand where you&#8217;re coming from. The right turn in the republican party polling is because the party is shrinking in size, Unfortunately the entire cycle of purification is a self reinforcing one, and I can&#8217;t see anything that is going to stop it in the near future.</p>
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		<title>By: krove</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/never-so-divided/comment-page-1#comment-50186</link>
		<dc:creator>krove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-50186</guid>
		<description>Yes Obama will win again in 2012. If the economy gets back on track he will win in a landslide again against any opponent, if up against Palin I am guessing she would win Alaska and maybe Oklahoma.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If the economy is not doing so good he will win by normal margins ( a Bush 2004 election).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would also predict that the GOP is in danger of losing the following Senate seats in 2010. In order of vulnerability&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Missouri, Ohio, Kentucky, Florida with North Carolina as a tossup.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes Obama will win again in 2012. If the economy gets back on track he will win in a landslide again against any opponent, if up against Palin I am guessing she would win Alaska and maybe Oklahoma.</p>
<p>If the economy is not doing so good he will win by normal margins ( a Bush 2004 election).</p>
<p>I would also predict that the GOP is in danger of losing the following Senate seats in 2010. In order of vulnerability</p>
<p>Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Missouri, Ohio, Kentucky, Florida with North Carolina as a tossup.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/never-so-divided/comment-page-1#comment-50320</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-50320</guid>
		<description>ottovbvs: The reason that modern conservatism has been reduced to social issues (&quot;God, guns and gays&quot;), is because it&#039;s the victim of its own success on other issues.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The conservative coalition, which began in the 1950s at the height of the Cold War, was comprised of foreign-policy hawks, social conservatives, and economic conservatives. What originally held them all together was their opposition to Communism and its watered-down little brother, socialism:  Foreign-policy hawks opposed Soviet expansionism; economic conservatives opposed command economies; and social conservatives opposed &quot;Godless, atheistic communism.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;With the collapse of the USSR and the end of the Cold War, this coalition started to fall apart.  And the disagreements between them have emerged:  Social conservatives like Phyllis Schafly and Pat Buchanan oppose free trade and immigration; paleo-conservatives like Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan oppose foreign policy interventionism; etc.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The only way to keep the Phyllis Schlaflys and Pat Buchanans in the GOP fold, despite a foreign and economic policy they oppose, is to emphasize &quot;God, guns and gays.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;A social conservative like Mike Huckabee is quite moderate on economic issues--he may be further to the left than Bill Clinton.  What keeps Huckabee in the GOP, is God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ottovbvs: The reason that modern conservatism has been reduced to social issues (&#8220;God, guns and gays&#8221;), is because it&#8217;s the victim of its own success on other issues.</p>
<p>The conservative coalition, which began in the 1950s at the height of the Cold War, was comprised of foreign-policy hawks, social conservatives, and economic conservatives. What originally held them all together was their opposition to Communism and its watered-down little brother, socialism:  Foreign-policy hawks opposed Soviet expansionism; economic conservatives opposed command economies; and social conservatives opposed &#8220;Godless, atheistic communism.&#8221;</p>
<p>With the collapse of the USSR and the end of the Cold War, this coalition started to fall apart.  And the disagreements between them have emerged:  Social conservatives like Phyllis Schafly and Pat Buchanan oppose free trade and immigration; paleo-conservatives like Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan oppose foreign policy interventionism; etc.</p>
<p>The only way to keep the Phyllis Schlaflys and Pat Buchanans in the GOP fold, despite a foreign and economic policy they oppose, is to emphasize &#8220;God, guns and gays.&#8221;</p>
<p>A social conservative like Mike Huckabee is quite moderate on economic issues&#8211;he may be further to the left than Bill Clinton.  What keeps Huckabee in the GOP, is God.</p>
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		<title>By: barker13</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/never-so-divided/comment-page-1#comment-47767</link>
		<dc:creator>barker13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47767</guid>
		<description>Re: Franco; 4:11 AM&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;...following which are largely ignorant of politics and world affairs.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;ll go beyond Franco&#039;s point. I&#039;d bet krove&#039;s left kidney that the average respondent to such polling operates almost totally on emotion and what the &quot;think&quot; they know rather than operating upon having a base of factual information and being intellectually capable of analyzing said information.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In other words... the average American views politics as &quot;sporting even&quot; more than as an exercise in civics and government. Most people have their &quot;team&quot; and as for the Independents... again... how much does the average American actually KNOW about... er... issues... nuts and bolts... history... &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(*SHRUG*)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; Hey... to illustrate my point let me ask you folks a question:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Let&#039;s say that over the next three years - with Obama as president, chances are with the Democrats retaining control of one or both houses of Congress thru 2012 - our economic problems continue to deepen... inflation increases, unemployment increases, interest rates start SLOWLY going up, but too slowly to dampen inflation... let&#039;s even throw in a foreign policy crisis or two...&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now. As yourselves. Even under these circumstances (which I predict to be the circumstances in real life) would any of you absolutely count Obama out as far as winning a second term is concerned...???&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;To those who intelligently respond &quot;no&quot;... I rest my case.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;BILL</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Franco; 4:11 AM</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;following which are largely ignorant of politics and world affairs.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll go beyond Franco&#8217;s point. I&#8217;d bet krove&#8217;s left kidney that the average respondent to such polling operates almost totally on emotion and what the &#8220;think&#8221; they know rather than operating upon having a base of factual information and being intellectually capable of analyzing said information.</p>
<p>In other words&#8230; the average American views politics as &#8220;sporting even&#8221; more than as an exercise in civics and government. Most people have their &#8220;team&#8221; and as for the Independents&#8230; again&#8230; how much does the average American actually KNOW about&#8230; er&#8230; issues&#8230; nuts and bolts&#8230; history&#8230; </p>
<p>(*SHRUG*)</p>
<p> Hey&#8230; to illustrate my point let me ask you folks a question:</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say that over the next three years &#8211; with Obama as president, chances are with the Democrats retaining control of one or both houses of Congress thru 2012 &#8211; our economic problems continue to deepen&#8230; inflation increases, unemployment increases, interest rates start SLOWLY going up, but too slowly to dampen inflation&#8230; let&#8217;s even throw in a foreign policy crisis or two&#8230;</p>
<p>Now. As yourselves. Even under these circumstances (which I predict to be the circumstances in real life) would any of you absolutely count Obama out as far as winning a second term is concerned&#8230;???</p>
<p>To those who intelligently respond &#8220;no&#8221;&#8230; I rest my case.</p>
<p>BILL</p>
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		<title>By: Bulldoglover100</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/never-so-divided/comment-page-1#comment-52713</link>
		<dc:creator>Bulldoglover100</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-52713</guid>
		<description>Apples and Oranges unless you count the Independents......who by the way we can NEVER win another election without.....and when those are figured into your little piece of fantasy? We lose and lose big.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apples and Oranges unless you count the Independents&#8230;&#8230;who by the way we can NEVER win another election without&#8230;..and when those are figured into your little piece of fantasy? We lose and lose big.</p>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/never-so-divided/comment-page-1#comment-45635</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-45635</guid>
		<description>I thought the conclusions of this poll were fairly meaningless. The GOP has swung right, this is news, and hence it&#039;s less willing to compromise with the Democrats. If we&#039;re seeing more polarization it&#039;s not very surprising since it&#039;s been pursued as a political strategy by the GOP for 20 years or more. Has everyone forgotten Karl Rove boasting about it after the 2004 election as the means by which he won on a platform of god, guns and gays. The problem is polarization has turned out to be a disastrous long term political strategy that has made a dwindling segment of he electorate fervent supporters of Republicanism while the dynamic and growing segment of the electorate has been alienated. I saw a stat the other day that must be making Republican strategists very nervous: apparently 81% of the 19-30 demographic approve of Obama while 8% of them approve of congressional republicans. Since I suspect the 14-19 age group think much the same way and Obama will probably be in office for eight years this has huge psephological implications over the next fifty years.Perhaps I need to google that piece by Ruy Texiera from a  few years back which looks more prescient by the day.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the conclusions of this poll were fairly meaningless. The GOP has swung right, this is news, and hence it&#8217;s less willing to compromise with the Democrats. If we&#8217;re seeing more polarization it&#8217;s not very surprising since it&#8217;s been pursued as a political strategy by the GOP for 20 years or more. Has everyone forgotten Karl Rove boasting about it after the 2004 election as the means by which he won on a platform of god, guns and gays. The problem is polarization has turned out to be a disastrous long term political strategy that has made a dwindling segment of he electorate fervent supporters of Republicanism while the dynamic and growing segment of the electorate has been alienated. I saw a stat the other day that must be making Republican strategists very nervous: apparently 81% of the 19-30 demographic approve of Obama while 8% of them approve of congressional republicans. Since I suspect the 14-19 age group think much the same way and Obama will probably be in office for eight years this has huge psephological implications over the next fifty years.Perhaps I need to google that piece by Ruy Texiera from a  few years back which looks more prescient by the day.</p>
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		<title>By: Cforchange</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/never-so-divided/comment-page-1#comment-40006</link>
		<dc:creator>Cforchange</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-40006</guid>
		<description>This survey did not appear to reflect the actual number of voters and by political party affiliation.  It seems to make the point of the poll irrelevant as will all future polls if the party size isn&#039;t included in the scope of relevancy and will set the GOP for a false sense for .what will create a winning majority.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would be careful of who I refer to as a cult - cop killer Richard was a Beck fan.  Maybe he wasn&#039;t pushed but he was certainly excited beyond reason, yes too psychologically invested.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Many like David Frum have advised that stirring the pot is not wise and unless you&#039;re nutty you would have to agree that Hilter style recruitment tactics will result in Hilter like actions.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This survey did not appear to reflect the actual number of voters and by political party affiliation.  It seems to make the point of the poll irrelevant as will all future polls if the party size isn&#8217;t included in the scope of relevancy and will set the GOP for a false sense for .what will create a winning majority.</p>
<p>I would be careful of who I refer to as a cult &#8211; cop killer Richard was a Beck fan.  Maybe he wasn&#8217;t pushed but he was certainly excited beyond reason, yes too psychologically invested.  </p>
<p>Many like David Frum have advised that stirring the pot is not wise and unless you&#8217;re nutty you would have to agree that Hilter style recruitment tactics will result in Hilter like actions.</p>
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