What kind of a man eats his hamburger without ketchup? That was the big question yesterday on talk radio, after President Obama visited an Arlington, Virginia, hamburger place on Tuesday and ordered his burger with spicy mustard.
First answer: Texans.
Texans traditionally eat hamburgers with mustard or with mayonnaise (or with both), but without ketchup. This is simply called a “hamburger” in Texas, but is sometimes called a “Cowboy Burger” or a “Texas Burger” outside of Texas.
A hamburger with ketchup is sometimes called a “Yankee Burger.” A hamburger with mayonnaise is sometimes called a “Sissy Burger.”
Dirty Martin’s (in Austin since 1926) serves hamburgers with mustard, pickles, onions, and tomatoes, but it is not known when this combination began. The popular Texas “Whataburger” hamburger chain has served hamburgers with mustard from its founding (1950). The hamburger-with-mustard combination in Texas is attested at least from the 1950s, but the pre-1950s hamburger condiments cannot be firmly established.
Second answer: Republicans. A 2000 survey of members of Congress by the National Hot Dog Council found that 73% of Republican lawmakers preferred mustard to ketchup, as opposed to 47% of Democratic lawmakers.
Final answer: traditionalists. Louis’ Lunch in New Haven, Connecticut, the restaurant widely believed to have served the first hamburgers ever made in the United States, absolutely forbids ketchup.
Next question?
46 responses so far
1 Brutus1776 // May 8, 2009 at 6:55 am
It’s true. Everytime I throw ketchup on a burger or hot dog my dad and grandad call me a ‘yank.’ It’s hurtful and offensive.
Best Texas burger can be found at Opersteny’s in Bryan, Texas. Mustard, onions, patty, bun. Grab a Shiner and enjoy.
2 ireign // May 8, 2009 at 7:36 am
That place also forbids mustard. Going by the picture, it doesn’t look particularly good. Anyway, ketchup or some other tomato based sauce is essential for a burger. If I had to guess, Frum is just trying to plug a hamburger joint that he frequented as an undergrad.
If I am passing by New Haven, I would just stick with Frank Pepe’s or Sally’s pizza.
The only food blunder I remember is from candidate John Kerry. He showed how out of touch he was by ordering swiss cheese on his cheese steak at Pat’s. West Wing even did an episode that alluded to this blunder.
3 sw // May 8, 2009 at 8:35 am
Third answer: Jews. In our community, ketchup is for the 12-and-under set. Mustard is the condiment of choice, whether yellow deli, brown grainy, or hot horseradish style. As for mayo on a burger – feh!
I can’t abide Obama’s policies and personality, but let’s be fair. There’s nothing wrong with a burger minus that gooey red kid stuff. Still beats Kerry ordering a Wendy’s lunch (with John Edwards and wife, ahem, who were celebrating their anniversary at the time, double ahem), then dumping it so he could eat lobster salad in the campaign van. Now that’s elitist.
4 barker13 // May 8, 2009 at 8:37 am
Everyone knows that the correct “basic” condiments for a CHEESEburger are mayo and ketchup.
The “Billburger”:
Start with a burger mixed with chopped onion. Cook to medium rare. (85% lean beef but, heck, I’m also partial to ground chicken, turkey, ostrich…)
Bleu Cheese, Sharp Cheddar, and Swiss Cheeses.
Sauteed mushrooms.
Bacon. (Of COURSE bacon!!!)
A couple or three thin salted slices of Tomato.
Multigrain bun.
Mayo and ketchup… perhaps a bit of horseradish.
(*WINK*)
BILL
P.S. –
Ireign. Boston has kick ass steak and cheese hoagies. They use provolone. Next time you’re in Boston stop by Cappies 2 on Huntington Avenue.
5 Brutus1776 // May 8, 2009 at 8:53 am
Haha, Bill, you are certainly a Northeasterner!
6 sinz54 // May 8, 2009 at 8:57 am
New Majority is trying to figure out how to appeal to moderates in the Blue States.
Anyone know any good quiche recipes?
7 Tiparillo // May 8, 2009 at 10:18 am
McDonald’s – as all American a cheeseburger as you can find – has both ketchup and mustard. But many will call McDonlad’s a CBINO – cheeseburber in name only.
8 Rob in Denver // May 8, 2009 at 10:34 am
Ketchup and cow should never, ever touch.
9 barker13 // May 8, 2009 at 10:54 am
Hey Rob,
You a Buckhorn Exchange fan?
Yum! Yum! Yum!
BILL
10 Rob in Denver // May 8, 2009 at 11:09 am
I live two blocks from the Buckhorn. I make it there for lunch every once in a while. Dinner only when my wife and I have guests in from out of town… one of those “you have to have this when you’re in Denver” kinds of things.
11 John // May 8, 2009 at 11:49 am
All true. Same at the old Little Taverns here — a small burger about the size of a silver dollar with a single think slice of pickle and some mustard. Their slogan was “Buy ‘em by the bag.”
12 Joda Plummer // May 8, 2009 at 12:05 pm
As a Connecticut resident who has actually eaten at Louis’ Lunch (and who normally enjoys ketchup on his hamburgers), I can say without hesitation that the burgers there are excellent, and the lack of ketchup not a problem.
They grind their own meat, and have these unique cast-iron gizmos that hold the burgers vertically during cooking.
If you’re in New Haven, try it out (after you’ve had a white clam pizza at Pepe’s, of course).
13 Joda Plummer // May 8, 2009 at 12:09 pm
As a Connecticut resident who has actually eaten at Louis’ Lunch (and who normally enjoys ketchup on his hamburgers), I can say without hesitation that the burgers there are excellent, and the lack of ketchup not a problem.
They grind their own meat, and have these unique cast-iron gizmos that hold the burgers vertically during cooking.
If you’re in New Haven, try it out (after you’ve had a white clam pizza at Pepe’s, of course).
14 dylanzwick // May 8, 2009 at 1:23 pm
The Huffington Post mentioned an email I sent about this, but this is all rather eerily presaged in The Audacity of Hope, Obama’s second book, on page 49.
15 BHall35 // May 8, 2009 at 4:45 pm
No, no, no. Don’t you understand? It’s not the fact that it’s mustard: it’s DIJON mustard! Damn French!
16 tarazeigler // May 8, 2009 at 5:09 pm
First, Dijon mustard is delicious.. Can’t beat it.
Being from Pittsburgh, we do like our ketchup (and had this happened in Pittsburgh, it would have been a more serious “incident”
) My hubby is a strict mustard-only guy. I had not realized that one’s political views could be so closely aligned to condiments. Very enlightening for our household.
17 BHall35 // May 8, 2009 at 5:29 pm
@tarazeigler:
Yes it is delicious, but Hannity recently ran a segment showing a 70’s Grey Poupon ad in an effort to mock Obama. And while some think this is Hannity trying to out-Colbert Colbert, I don’t think Hannity’s that smart.
18 philgross // May 8, 2009 at 9:56 pm
These answers, both in the main article and the comments, are driving me nuts.
The folks who don’t use ketchup are CHICAGOANS! Unlike the other answers, this is a group to which Obama actually belongs.
Note the description of how to make a Chicago Hot Dog:
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Chicago-Hot-Dog
“Use of ketchup is prohibited. Seriously. Some restaurants in Chicago will refuse to serve customers who ask for ketchup.”
It’s not kidding. For Chicago hamburgers and hot dogs, ketchup is sugary, flavor-killing garbage, and no self-respecting Chicagoan would ask for it.
19 Johnster // May 8, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Until now, I have only been a lurker on New Majority, but on this item, I MUST weigh in.
philgross is absolutely right: this IS a Chicago thing.
In the Windy City (where I grew up) mustard is king, and ketchup is only for french fries. To this day, I have Portillo’s beef shipped out East and boil up some Chicago dogs to celebrate my birthday every year.
Quote from hotdogchicagostyle.com, “The National Hot Dog & Sausage Council, in its recommendations for proper Hot Dog Etiquette capitulate only slightly to the public’s general regard for ketchup, saying ‘Don’t use ketchup on your hot dog after the age of 18.’.”
20 ottovbvs // May 9, 2009 at 4:45 am
Ketchup on burgers is for kids and girly men as we know in CT. Like Joda I’m an occasional visitor to Louis’. That this became a staple of right wing talk radio and Fox News says it all. I actually heard this being talked about on the radio yesterday when I went to my local transfer station where one of the guys has the radio blaring. Whoever it was, maybe Limbaugh, immediately pivoted to why hasn’t Obama ended the recession. Only in America.
21 ottovbvs // May 9, 2009 at 5:17 am
I just watched Mustard gate. Apparently Joe is a girly man. The country loves this guy so conservatives better get used to it.
22 midcon // May 9, 2009 at 7:08 am
I don’t like to mix mustard or ketchup with lettuce, tomato, and onion. If no TLO then kethup and mustard ok. It would be sort of like having ketchup and mustard on your salad. Since I was born and lived in the South; raised in NY, and worked for many years in California, I can safely say it’s just my thing and not regional.
And yeah, no ketchup on your hot dog, but that should go without saying. I like my dogs Chicago style with a little bit of celery salt, etc.
Thank God at least food preferences are not political!
23 midcon // May 9, 2009 at 7:14 am
Michell O, has visited 5 Guys – considered one of the best (and best fries) in DC metro (although they’ve gone franchise so I expect product degradation over time).
24 ChristianMiller // May 9, 2009 at 8:58 am
Er, Hope you guys don’t mind my going off-topic a bit, but why nothing about Colin Powell’s recent remarks? This site is very quick to attack talk radio and the so-called extremists but has mostly kind words for defectors like Specter, and nothing as yet on Obamaphile Powell. Agree? Disagree? Embarrassed? What?
25 ChristianMiller // May 9, 2009 at 9:04 am
Anyone watch the tape of this? It is hilarious. Obama is in full Presidential authority mode when ordering. Looks like he needs a telepromter for that too! And Biden is trying to show how to talk to regular guys, I looks like it is a point of pride for him.
And the point isn’t only that Obama likes Dijon, it’s the idea that a place like that HAS dijon mustard at all and that the help knows what it is.
26 BHall35 // May 9, 2009 at 9:30 am
Oh, stop with the teleprompter stuff already. After GWB, it only makes you look foolish. And I suspect people who work in the food service industry have heard of Dijon mustard, and this has now emerged as the most ridiculous right-wing talking point since the last one (maybe Michele Bachmann’s “Hoot-Smalley” hilarity).
27 barker13 // May 9, 2009 at 10:05 am
Hotdogs and/or sausage toppings:
Mustard. OBVIOUSLY! Personally, I like Nathan’s Famous Deli Style mustard, but hey… I’m fine with Dijon and indeed pretty much any mustard – though I prefer dark, rich, spicy, kinda “tart” mustards.
As for ketchup…
(*SIGH*) (*LONG SUFFERING SIGH*)
I like to think of myself as a tolerant guy…
(Stop the frigg’n laughing you damned cynics!)
…but there are limits.
One does NOT…
I repeat…
ONE DOES NOT…
…put ketchup on a hot dog or sausage.
(A couple shakes of hot sauce… now THAT’S acceptable…)
Me? I’m fine with a plain dog with mustard. That said, sauerkraut is of course a great add-on as is raw onion, relish, chili… (baked beans are an acceptable substitute for chili)… and of course…
(*DRUM ROLL*)
BACON AND CHEESE!
Bottom line… no ketchup.
BILL
28 midcon // May 9, 2009 at 10:24 am
Franco, because we ought not be spending our time attacking, which builds nothing. The “gotcha game” will do nothing but keep the GOP where it is today.
Speaking of which, I opened my mail from Bob Steele today who tells me that fewer than 3% of Republicans have earned the right to carry to the RNC 2009 Charter Member Gold Card. I’m not sure if that means they’ve had a 3% response rate (folks who sent in money), or that I am about to honored with a future Ambassadorship to Upper Moldavia.
To get to the point, the accompanying letter spent the better part of two pages telling me how terrible the Dems/Obama/Liberals ideas are and the doom that will befall us all. A single (ONE) (1) (Uno) sentence in the entire letter was about “our reforms” A SINGLE SENTENCE. And Bob thinks I am going sit right down and write a check? There is nothing left of the GOP. Let’s talk about hot dogs and hamburgers instead. It’s much more rewarding.
And I agree with BillShrugSigh. A couple drops of hot sauce perks up a hot dog.
29 ChristianMiller // May 9, 2009 at 12:00 pm
midcon ,
The fact that Democrats are so far to the left and so despicable, that the GOP has been able to coast, sometimes brazenly, on the “We are not Democrats” platform. This has led to laziness corruption and atrophy.
Nevertheless the propaganda war has been won by Democrats and lots of Republicans don’t know it.
Those of us who listen to talk radio and not so much CBS NBC PBS or read Time or newsweek, understand this.
Doing nothing is 100 times better than what Obama is doing. Stopping these policies are vital for America and the opposition party.
The fact that Obama can get away with saying “the Republicans want to do nothing” shows that the PR war is won, and arguing INSIDE that framework is a losing proposition.
It is as if Bush could get away with saying, as the invasion of Iraq was in full-force, that Democrats weren’t serious about the war on terror as they aren’t offering alternative countries to invade.
30 tarazeigler // May 9, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Bill, Bill, Bill…
You and I agree on mustard, but I cannot stand for you disparaging hot dogs and ketchup. (*shaking fist*) A little bit of Heinz never hurt anyone. (Add some chili to it and it is even better.)
Sausage is a different story, though. That is best with a good, thick, spicy mustard.
31 midcon // May 9, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Franco,
The problem is, the people (me and whole bunch of others don’t want someone to do nothing). We want someone to do the right things. In the void that is the GOP vision, people will take something over nothing. Currently what the GOP is offering is that measley single sentence called “our reforms.” That’s why the GOP is currently dead and only the dismal failure of the left will bring them back to life. Funny isn’t the life of the party depends on another party. No wonder folks hope Obama fails, it’s the only way they can succeed. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
32 ottovbvs // May 9, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Franco
9:04 AMAnyone watch the tape of this? It is hilarious.
….I don’t know why you Franco as a fully paid up member of he Obama hate club should find it hilarious since all the folks inside and outside the restaurant are obviously falling at the guy’s feet…..And what’s most hilarious of all are your comments about the restaurant which after all shows that
“it’s the idea that a place like that HAS dijon mustard at all and that the help knows what it is.”
Obviously a den of pinko lefty elitist burger eaters
…..bwwwaahhhhhhh…..they probably like them medium rare…..bwwwwahhhhh
33 ottovbvs // May 9, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Franco
12:00 PM
“Doing nothing is 100 times better than what Obama is doing. Stopping these policies are vital for America and the opposition party.
The fact that Obama can get away with saying “the Republicans want to do nothing” shows that the PR war is won, and arguing INSIDE that framework is a losing proposition.”
……Franco you’re living proof the GOP is doomed for a generation…..I often wonder what Frum thinks when he reads the stuff from yourself and the usual suspects.
34 ottovbvs // May 9, 2009 at 2:52 pm
barker13
10:05 AM
“Bottom line… no ketchup.”
…You agree with Obama about something then.
BHall35
9:30 AM
“(maybe Michele Bachmann’s “Hoot-Smalley” hilarity).”
………When you have friends like Bachmann who needs enemies……She is living proof that a large part of the Republican electorate is suffering from ADD, arrested development, sleeping sickness, ….or some other malady.
35 ChristianMiller // May 9, 2009 at 3:39 pm
ottovbvs ……Franco you’re living proof the GOP is doomed for a generation…..I often wonder what Frum thinks when he reads the stuff from yourself and the usual suspects.
Frum cringes , and you gloat: Ding Dong the witch is dead, the wicked GOP is dead! Gloating must be so much fun for you. Personally I am immune. The party that welcomes the likes of Arlen Specter won’t get my sympathy for failure. But you want the GOP to fail, so your advice about what I should say or shouldn’t is suspect.
BTW I liked the way Obama said “medium rare” in that, “let me be clear” authoritarian tone. Here’s a guy who knows what he wants on his burger! He kinda reminds me of Nixon – I don’t hate him though. After all the Bush hatred displayed by your side – I guess promoting hate may be an effective tool. I’ll consider it. Worked for you guys.
36 ChristianMiller // May 9, 2009 at 3:49 pm
midcon
2:03 PM
I’m all for personal responsibility, but why should Republicans be held to a different standard than Democrats? The entire Dem party worked tirelessly to undermine Bush, even if it meant losing a war. Eventually with the help of the left-wing media they managed to get 53% of Americans, many of whom were under the delusion that Obama was a reasonable centrist, to vote for him, over the pathetic John McCain.
This is not particularly impressive to me and there will be a backlash in 2010 and 2012.
The fact that Republicans don’t have some grand scheme to save the banks and the UAW misses the point. It’s like accusing Democrats for not having a plan to fight terrorism because they haven’t given us a plan for upcoming countries they would like to invade.
37 midcon // May 9, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Franco, 3:39PM.
It is very very simple. As an independent and speaking for other independents that I personally know who have the same views as myself, the GOP will not get my vote unless they provide some beef (with or without ketchup). That’s it in a nutshell. I don’t care how bad the Democrats are, unless I see an alternative I will either sit out the election or give the Democrats more time, or perhaps vote for myself.
Now there are many here and elsewhere that can call independents names like RINO, or liberal or something else, but it will not change how many there are of us.
The GOP portfolio of ideas consist of single obsession – hoping Obama fails because that’s the only way they can win. The reality is that Obama will not fail but will be less successful than he and many others hope. Still maybe Bob Steele and company can spin that into a failure – sort of like “Mission Accomplished”
38 willhirsch // May 10, 2009 at 2:51 am
For the record, Louis’ Lunch also forbids mustard, so that point is pretty invalid. The rest stands though. The whole idea that this is a scandal is retarded.
The right-wing media are destroying the Republican party. If they actually took the opportunity with mundane things like this to be Fair and Balanced, people might be more inclined to take them seriously when they present their side of truly divisive issues.
39 ChristianMiller // May 10, 2009 at 6:12 am
midcon “I don’t care how bad the Democrats are, unless I see an alternative I will either sit out the election or give the Democrats more time, or perhaps vote for myself.”
This statement reveals a bias that a real independent wouldn’t have. It shows a certain animosity toward Republicans , while not holding Democrats to the same standard. That is not being “independent” – that is being intellectually dishonest with yourself. It also, for an independent, shows ignorance about the Democrat agenda. Just because they have “plans” does not make them better. The plans are pretty controlling, to say the least.
40 greg_barton // May 10, 2009 at 8:01 am
Mustard-Gate is the most awesome thing I have ever seen. Speaking as a Democrat and Texan I hope we have a mustard-gate style “scandal” at least once a month for the next sixteen years. That will easily ensure four presidential terms for the Democrats with corresponding congressional majorities.
41 sinz54 // May 10, 2009 at 9:15 am
Franco: Where the current U.S. economy is concerned, doing nothing was not an option.
Last September, the financial markets seemed on the verge of seizing up, taking the U.S. down with them. The stock market reflected this, and fell off a cliff. The numbers and trends really were starting to suggest a possible depression.
TARP was a necessary evil. I don’t like Obama’s approach; I would have preferred more tax cuts and less pork. But doing nothing would have risked a depression.
In the debate over TARP last year, the House Republicans, backed up by the hard-right echo chamber like Michelle Malkin, first denied that anything was really wrong with the financial system. And then they fell back on nihilism: If TARP is what it takes to keep the economy from collapsing, then let it collapse!
To risk the collapse of your nation for the sake of a principle, is the act of a fanatic.
42 sinz54 // May 10, 2009 at 9:23 am
Franco claims: “Eventually with the help of the left-wing media they managed to get 53% of Americans….to vote for him [Obama], over the pathetic John McCain.”
After the successful GOP convention last August, the polls showed McCain actually pulling slightly ahead of Obama–and Dems were getting nervous. Many of the wilder attacks on Sarah Palin had backfired.
Then in September, the financial markets fell off a cliff (something the hard-core right-wingers still have trouble acknowledging was the case). McCain’s bizarre response to that–he suspended campaigning, flew back to Washington, accomplished nothing, resumed campaigning–together with his erratic performance in the debates with Obama, were what caused him to lose the election.
THE REPUBLICANS BLEW THE ECONOMIC CRISIS.
That’s why McCain lost.
Bush did a better job comprehending the magnitude of the crisis–and acting to fix it–than McCain did.
43 ChristianMiller // May 10, 2009 at 10:51 am
sinz54 ,
Muddying up the waters again. I never said McCain didn’t completely mishandle the economic crisis. That was one of the reasons I called him pathetic. The intital bailouts may have been necessary, I really don’t know, but the continued borrowing and subsequent meddling is alarming and unnecessary. We are seeing Chrysler, already lavished with taxpayer dollars, declaring bankruptcy anyway.
“Then in September, the financial markets fell off a cliff (something the hard-core right-wingers still have trouble acknowledging was the case).”
Excuse me? Like McCain listens to malkin
“If TARP is what it takes to keep the economy from collapsing, then let it collapse!
To risk the collapse of your nation for the sake of a principle, is the act of a fanatic.”
Merrill Lynch and Goldman Sacks is not “our nation”. And the government, in case you didn’t know, cannot produce wealth. They can print money and they can try to avert disaster temporarily but they can’t do much more.
TARP and the Obama bailouts are postponing and aggravating problems and prolonging bad times, so I don’t see government intervention, even when somewhat justified, as any panacea.
And isn’t this thread supposed to be about mustard?
44 sinz54 // May 10, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Franco: Should this thread be about mustard? It started that way. Then you had one of the first non-mustard posts: “Hope you guys don’t mind my going off-topic a bit, but why nothing about Colin Powell’s recent remarks?”
It just snowballed from there.
45 greg_barton // May 10, 2009 at 11:20 pm
I think Franco would rather forget the fact that his cohort is obsessing about mustard. He’d love to change the subject, if only talk radio would let him.
46 ChristianMiller // May 11, 2009 at 5:57 am
sinz, That was a joke. No one ADDRESSED my question on Colin Powell. So in a sense I was referring to the fact that no one responded, we were going all over the place on TARP Bush etc., but tellingly you called it up as a “gotcha” response to my little joke. Too funny. Seems some people just like to pick around the edges of things, and you addressed Powell in that context only.
As to radio talk shows:
I heard Hannity was the one harping on this Dijon issue the most. I don’t listen to Hannity. I used to, but I got tired of his show. He isn’t very thoughtful and is repetitive and seems to have a need to hog air-time with his few callers, who usually aren’t that insightful.
He has on hard-left guests and debates them, which is not enlightening and is conducted like a show-trial. The only reason these guests come on his show is because they are relative unknowns, and they are willing to get beat up for the exposure.
The interesting guests he does have on, Gingrich or Rove or Morris, he presents them with paragraph-long questions, essentially repeating the same points Sean made earlier, trying to get them to comment on his own perspective rather than allowing them to simply present their case.
Hannity also has too many questionable Republican politicians on who he gives relative softball questions. IE Huckaphoney.
Lastly (for now) I have tired of his endless self-promotion and his hyper-excited vocal antics, along with the heavy handed over-produced intros.
Limbaugh is smarter, funnier, has great callers and doesn’t interview Pols promoting their agenda or debate fringe leftists.
Levin is a master. Brilliant, fearless and he has the best callers.
So there is some nuance for you guys who like to expound (from ignorance in many cases) on monolithic “talk radio”.
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