RSS Feed MenuComments are lively under the post about the non-inclusion of Mormons in Christian social activism.
For more on this subject, let me dust off a bookshelf entry on an important survey of Mormonism in America by Richard and Joan Ostling.
Maybe Mitt Romney’s adherence to the teachings of Joseph Smith proves him a sucker. But there’s no sign of the sucker about him when he reads a balance sheet! Why should we assume he’d be any more gullible when it came time to negotiate a treaty or face down a foreign threat or review an EPA regulation?
ThomasJames // Nov 30, 2009 at 3:45 pm
The voices saying:
“The Nobel Peace Prize? Climate change? I don’t have a job. I can’t send my kids to college even if I can figure out what they are going to have to eat at the end of the month … I voted for you. $2 trillion in bailouts and stimulus packages and 2,000 page health care bills and Asian trips and beer summits with Harvard professors … I voted for you. Are you kidding me??”
Grizelda // Nov 30, 2009 at 4:15 pm
ThomasJames – show me evidence that JobsFirst created jobs – what you cite could just as easily be jobs created in spite of JobsFirst.
ThomasJames // Nov 30, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Grizelda,
Your smoke screens have been peeled away. Your time is up.
Grizelda, you’ve had enough evidence of Romney’s record of reducing deficits, creating surpluses and creating jobs; this is NOT contested.
But just to refute you ONCE AGAIN, the report I gave you is the GOVERNMENT agency that tracks the creation of jobs. You’re just in denial.
You accept that Obama’s administration has saved 1,000,000 jobs “by just their saying so,” but you demand that Romney have some quasi organization prove and track it the thousands of jobs created in MA in 2005, and 2006? Your world is a place of double standards and constant denials of reality.
It’s time you answered for your “Wes We can” Candidate, Barak Obama.
He declared “Yes We Can” and then proposed policies, bills and packages that he said WOULD make a difference NOW.
So, let’s evaluate.
Why didn’t Obama’s administration’s bailout get the credit flowing again?
Why didn’t Obama’s administration see to it that its mortgage program help the 1000s of people who need it?
Why does the employment continue to RISE when Obama claimed his administrative policies and laws would have the opposite affect?
Grizelda // Nov 30, 2009 at 5:06 pm
ThomasJames, you claim as fact that Romney’s Jobs First program created thousands of jobs in Massachusetts. However, there is no evidence to back that up. You do site something that says thousands of jobs were created in Massachusetts, but NOT that they were due to Jobs First.
hamaca // Nov 30, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Grizelda, very clever approach you have there. No matter what info the other side puts forward, always demand yet another level of proof. If you keep going, it may be that you could demand that those who got jobs be interviewed as proof. And then you could demand to see their paystubs. And then… and then… At some point the other side will give up and you can claim victory. I may have to give that a try sometime–thanks!
ThomasJames // Nov 30, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Grizelda:
The problem with your last post is you said, “there is NO evidence to back that up.” This an untenable position. There is EVIDENCE of job creation during Romney’s tenure as Governor.
What you’re NOW proposing is a job-by-job investigation to determine if the policies of Romney created each and every job, by sector, and how each sector was influenced by the policies. This is every Governor’s dream but such is not available or has EVER been available to the Governors of Massachusetts. This is your double standard. You don’t require it of Obama but you require it of Mitt Romney. Until you cough up the same evidence for Obama, this claim of yours is meaningless.
However, there is an independent, non-partisan, research and educational institute that measures economic growth compared to government policies. During the 2008 campaign for the Republican Nomination their report confirmed the following during Romney’s tenure as Governor:
* 60,000 new jobs were created
* Substantial progress made in streamlining permits and regulations for businesses that want to locate in the state.
You demand evidence but provide none yourself, for your own candidate in 2012, who hasn’t been able to reach ANY objectives that he set AS PRESIDENT.
The President has spent 2 trillion dollars and claims to have saved about 1,000,000 according to his “mind.” To use your own standard, how do we know that his stimulus “saved” the jobs? Are you comfortable with your President’s claim without any “evidence?”
He declared “Yes We Can” and then proposed policies, bills and packages that he said WOULD make a difference NOW.
So, let’s evaluate.
Why didn’t Obama’s administration’s bailout get the credit flowing again?
Why didn’t Obama’s administration see to it that its mortgage program help the 1000s of people who need it?
Why does the UNemployment continue to RISE when Obama claimed his administrative policies and laws would have the opposite affect?
Grizelda // Nov 30, 2009 at 6:30 pm
hamaca, I’m not demanding another level of proof – I’m demanding the FIRST level of proof. TJ says Romney’s JobsFirst program created thousands of jobs – but he cannot show anyone who concurs that JobsFirst created even ONE job. The fact that jobs were created does not mean that JobsFirst had anything to do with it – they could have all been from the Big Dig or from a big upswing in strip clubs being opened along Route One.
ThomasJames // Nov 30, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Grizelda:
Therefore, according to your last post, Obama has created no job growth and should be removed from office in 2012.
Grizelda // Nov 30, 2009 at 7:20 pm
ThomasJames, you’ve made a claim which should be able to be factually verified but which you cannot. Therefore, I am inclined to believe that you made a false claim. What claim have I made which is comparable to the whopper that you laid down?
ThomasJames // Nov 30, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Grizelda:
No, it has been factually verified that during Romney’s tenure, 60,000 new jobs were created by two different sources. One of the sources recognized JobsFirst day from the JobsvFirst plan and connected 21,000 new jobs with it. (The one you conveniently ignored.)
It has also been verified that new revenues came into the MA government as a result of the policies of the Romney administration allowing it to balance the budget. These new revenues arise from businesses doing more business which required more job creation.
We can certainly follow the trail and we see a linkage between all of the facts about growth. Perhaps an Economics 101 course is on order?
But in order to make the correct comparison between Romney and Obama we have to go back a step. What did SENATOR Obama ever do to create jobs or balance a budget? Zilch. (And it shows.)
Furthermore, your own guy, President Obama claims that he saved 1,000,000 jobs as a result of his stimulus package, but there is no factual verification for it. Where is your call that Obama made a “false claim?” (You see, double standard.)
So, you give President Obama a pass but you require me to create a special kind of task force organization that can satisfy YOUR requirements for the linkage between Romney’s policies and the subsequent success in MA in 2005, and 2006.
What does this come down to? You’re toast. Your fallacious argument is refuted. It’s based on your denial of the facts already provided and your double standard, one for Obama and one for Republicans.
Therefore, according to your last post, Obama has created no job growth and should be removed from office in 2012.
He declared “Yes We Can” and then proposed policies, bills and packages that he said WOULD make a difference NOW.
So, let’s evaluate.
Why didn’t Obama’s administration’s bailout get the credit flowing again?
Why didn’t Obama’s administration see to it that its mortgage program help the 1000s of people who need it?
Why does the UNemployment continue to RISE when Obama claimed his administrative policies and laws would have the opposite affect?
You can’t even begin to address the problems that Obama cannot or will not face.
Tell us Grizelda, was the stimulus package Obama’s best idea? And if it wasn’t, why didn’t he put his best ideas forward to save or create jobs? Why is he just sitting around when the House and Senate are Democractically controlled?
Can you hear the voices?
“The Nobel Peace Prize? Climate change?
I don’t have a job. I can’t send my kids to college even if I can figure out what they are going to have to eat at the end of the month … I voted for you. $2 trillion in bailouts and stimulus packages and 2,000 page health care bills and Asian trips and beer summits with Harvard professors … I voted for you. Are you kidding me??”
Grizelda // Nov 30, 2009 at 9:32 pm
60000 new jobs? TJ, check your trousers, they must be flaming!
“The former Massachusetts governor issued a statement on Sunday titled “creating jobs” that focuses on 57,600 jobs added to the Massachusetts economy during his single term as governor from 2003 to 2007. But Northeastern University economist Andrew Sum, who has researched Romney’s record, said the state lagged the U.S. average during that period in job creation, economic growth and wage increases. “As a strict labor market economist looking at the record, Massachusetts did very poorly during the Romney years, he said. “On every measure you’ve got, the state was a substantial under-performer.”
“”There’s never been under his watch an economic turnaround to speak of,” Michael Widmer, president of the independent Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation, told Reuters. “We added a few jobs over the last three years of his tenure but very few.”
“But Northeastern’s Sum said that while jobs were created under Romney, the rate was the third-lowest in the nation after Hurricane Katrina-hit Louisiana and Michigan. At the same time, wages in the New England state stagnated during Romney’s term. The average weekly wage of Massachusetts workers, Sum said, rose by just a $1 between 2001 and 2006 after adjusting for inflation, while the state had the third-highest rate of population loss in the nation between July 2002 and July 2006. Real output of goods and services — a broad measure of economic performance — grew 9 percent, below the 13 percent rate for the United States, he added.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2033704120080120?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
Grizelda // Nov 30, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Also, TJ, it is interesting that he doesn’t mention this 60,000 job miracle in the quotes given on this page:
http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Mitt_Romney_Jobs.htm
ThomasJames // Nov 30, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Grizelda,
Notice that Andrew Sum did not contest the 60,000 job figure, he only interpreted that the State was an under performer compared to OTHER States.
Furthermore, these are Romney’s CRITICS, not non-partisan groups like the one I quoted. Critics will try and SEE data in anyway as not to concede that Romney succeeded. And how could they, how could they concede that a REPUBLICAN governor did well.
Look, you’re toast. Your argument didn’t work and can’t be duplicated for your own candidate. Obama has created no jobs according to your standard of measurement.
The questions remain Grizelda:
Why didn’t Obama’s administration’s bailout get the credit flowing again?
Why didn’t Obama’s administration see to it that its mortgage program help the 1000s of people who need it?
Why does the UNemployment continue to RISE when Obama claimed his administrative policies and laws would have the opposite affect?
Why won’t you confront these tough questions if Obama is a superior executive above Romney?
Grizelda // Nov 30, 2009 at 11:04 pm
So we’ve gone from your claim that Romney has a demonstrated track record in creating jobs to your admission that Massachusetts under Romney actually underperformed the rest of the nation.
My work here is done.
It will be fun to see all this aired again in 2012.
ThomasJames // Dec 1, 2009 at 12:18 am
Grizelda:
Your arguments are toast. Your line of argumentation will not work in the national debate because you refuse to own up to President Obama’s record or lack thereof.
When people are out of jobs, out of credit, and failing, they’ll take Romney’s record over Obama.
Rational people will be able to distinguish between inheriting a state with a 3 billion deficit and a State that already has a surplus. Which state is poised for better job growth? Duh.
Your “work” here is done because you’ve run out of excuses as to why you can’t answer the tough questions for President Obama.
Carney // Dec 1, 2009 at 9:53 am
ThomasJames posted the following from http : //www.evangelicalsformitt.org/ :
“[T]here’s a vast swath of Republican voters who are not “evangelical” but for whom core values are vitally important (along with other issues). Romney is poised to win this group. They don’t trust Huckabee’s economic liberalism, nor do they feel that Palin has the necessary experience.”
This fits me.