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	<title>Comments on: Michael Moore: Obama&#8217;s Faking Right, Heading Left</title>
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	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/michael-moore-obamas-faking-right-heading-left/comment-page-2#comment-59606</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9664#comment-59606</guid>
		<description>&quot;……….So you’re predicting a public option will offer coverage for $34 a month……. is that correct?&quot;

.......Sinz does his squid act again....squirts the ink and disappears</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;……….So you’re predicting a public option will offer coverage for $34 a month……. is that correct?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;.Sinz does his squid act again&#8230;.squirts the ink and disappears</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/michael-moore-obamas-faking-right-heading-left/comment-page-2#comment-59539</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9664#comment-59539</guid>
		<description>sinz:  &quot;Setting reimbursement rates that low would require massive Federal subsidies out of general revenues.&quot;

What would be being subsidized?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sinz:  &#8220;Setting reimbursement rates that low would require massive Federal subsidies out of general revenues.&#8221;</p>
<p>What would be being subsidized?</p>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/michael-moore-obamas-faking-right-heading-left/comment-page-1#comment-59536</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9664#comment-59536</guid>
		<description>sinz54 // Aug 12, 2009 at 10:27 am 
&quot;Here in Massachusetts where I live, the premiums of the state-subsidized public plan, Network Health Forward, are only $34.00 (yes, just THIRTY-FOUR DOLLARS) per month.If every Mass resident were eligible for it, they would dump the private insurers in a heartbeat–who can resist “nearly free” coverage?&quot;

..........So you&#039;re predicting a public option will offer coverage for $34 a month....... is that correct?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sinz54 // Aug 12, 2009 at 10:27 am<br />
&#8220;Here in Massachusetts where I live, the premiums of the state-subsidized public plan, Network Health Forward, are only $34.00 (yes, just THIRTY-FOUR DOLLARS) per month.If every Mass resident were eligible for it, they would dump the private insurers in a heartbeat–who can resist “nearly free” coverage?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.So you&#8217;re predicting a public option will offer coverage for $34 a month&#8230;&#8230;. is that correct?</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/michael-moore-obamas-faking-right-heading-left/comment-page-1#comment-59526</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9664#comment-59526</guid>
		<description>balconesfault sez:  &quot;Now, insurance companies might see their survival in the marketplace being tied to reducing those costs, and improving their service, and respond accordingly - preventing domination of the marketplace by a government plan.&quot;

That&#039;s impossible--if Congress mandates the premiums and reimbursement rates of the public plan to set so low that private insurers cannot possibly compete.  The CBO, in its analysis, assumed that wouldn&#039;t happen--but the  Congressional Progressive Caucus is demanding that reimbursement rates be set at only 5% above Medicare rates.  That would mean that premiums would be dramatically lower than any private insurer could offer, and they would swiftly leave the market.  

Setting reimbursement rates that low would require massive Federal subsidies out of general revenues.  So you would have a plan that is massively subsidized with mandated artificially low rates.  With private insurers who get no subsidies, unable to match those artificially low rates without going out of business.

Here in Massachusetts where I live, the premiums of the state-subsidized public plan, Network Health Forward, are only $34.00 (yes, just THIRTY-FOUR DOLLARS) per month.  If every Mass resident were eligible for it, they would dump the private insurers in a heartbeat--who can resist &quot;nearly free&quot; coverage?  The reason that doesn&#039;t happen is that most residents aren&#039;t eligible for that plan because it&#039;s strictly means-tested.  

But ObamaCare doesn&#039;t means-test their public plan; even Bill Gates could apply for it.

If Obama were sincere about not leading to single-payer, he would demand that the public option must pay for itself through premiums, without constant injections of Federal subsidies.  Democrat Senator Schumer proposed just such a common-sense idea.  But that would require giving up on universal coverage--bringing all those poor folks into the plan will make it impossible to pay for itself without charging high premiums (in which case it&#039;s worthless as a competitor to the private insurers).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>balconesfault sez:  &#8220;Now, insurance companies might see their survival in the marketplace being tied to reducing those costs, and improving their service, and respond accordingly &#8211; preventing domination of the marketplace by a government plan.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s impossible&#8211;if Congress mandates the premiums and reimbursement rates of the public plan to set so low that private insurers cannot possibly compete.  The CBO, in its analysis, assumed that wouldn&#8217;t happen&#8211;but the  Congressional Progressive Caucus is demanding that reimbursement rates be set at only 5% above Medicare rates.  That would mean that premiums would be dramatically lower than any private insurer could offer, and they would swiftly leave the market.  </p>
<p>Setting reimbursement rates that low would require massive Federal subsidies out of general revenues.  So you would have a plan that is massively subsidized with mandated artificially low rates.  With private insurers who get no subsidies, unable to match those artificially low rates without going out of business.</p>
<p>Here in Massachusetts where I live, the premiums of the state-subsidized public plan, Network Health Forward, are only $34.00 (yes, just THIRTY-FOUR DOLLARS) per month.  If every Mass resident were eligible for it, they would dump the private insurers in a heartbeat&#8211;who can resist &#8220;nearly free&#8221; coverage?  The reason that doesn&#8217;t happen is that most residents aren&#8217;t eligible for that plan because it&#8217;s strictly means-tested.  </p>
<p>But ObamaCare doesn&#8217;t means-test their public plan; even Bill Gates could apply for it.</p>
<p>If Obama were sincere about not leading to single-payer, he would demand that the public option must pay for itself through premiums, without constant injections of Federal subsidies.  Democrat Senator Schumer proposed just such a common-sense idea.  But that would require giving up on universal coverage&#8211;bringing all those poor folks into the plan will make it impossible to pay for itself without charging high premiums (in which case it&#8217;s worthless as a competitor to the private insurers).</p>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/michael-moore-obamas-faking-right-heading-left/comment-page-1#comment-59521</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9664#comment-59521</guid>
		<description>dfl // Aug 12, 2009 at 8:45 am
 &quot;Michael Moore wants single-payer health care as does President Obama yet they are willing to do it in two or three steps. &quot;

.........Actually I don&#039;t think the president wants a single payer system(don&#039;t give me links to speeches years ago) because at the moment it couldn&#039;t be made to work and he&#039;s interested in primarily what will work because that&#039;s what his record will be judged upon......There&#039;s no doubt that with a final bill containing the public option he&#039;d have the theoretical power to put the insurance companies out of business in two years but there&#039;s not the remotest chance he&#039;s  going to do it for a host of pragmatic reasons like insurance employment, operational efficiency and the market caps of health insurers which are a sizeable chunk of the S&amp;P and therefore 401k&#039;s.......and of course there&#039;s a lot of feinting that&#039;s how politics works.......because the media plays up the feints most people lose sight of the big picture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dfl // Aug 12, 2009 at 8:45 am<br />
 &#8220;Michael Moore wants single-payer health care as does President Obama yet they are willing to do it in two or three steps. &#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;Actually I don&#8217;t think the president wants a single payer system(don&#8217;t give me links to speeches years ago) because at the moment it couldn&#8217;t be made to work and he&#8217;s interested in primarily what will work because that&#8217;s what his record will be judged upon&#8230;&#8230;There&#8217;s no doubt that with a final bill containing the public option he&#8217;d have the theoretical power to put the insurance companies out of business in two years but there&#8217;s not the remotest chance he&#8217;s  going to do it for a host of pragmatic reasons like insurance employment, operational efficiency and the market caps of health insurers which are a sizeable chunk of the S&amp;P and therefore 401k&#8217;s&#8230;&#8230;.and of course there&#8217;s a lot of feinting that&#8217;s how politics works&#8230;&#8230;.because the media plays up the feints most people lose sight of the big picture.</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/michael-moore-obamas-faking-right-heading-left/comment-page-1#comment-59519</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9664#comment-59519</guid>
		<description>Again, Sinz.  Yes, most progressives and liberals do believe that giving people a public option, which simplifies the process for obtaining insurance, and reduces the cost of most people obtaining insurance, will lead to a government run universal system.

That&#039;s because we don&#039;t believe that private insurance companies have a vested interest in minimizing the amount of money that ends up not being spent on healthcare, but instead is spent on advertising and executive level compensation and bonuses and shareholder profits.

Now, insurance companies might see their survival in the marketplace being tied to reducing those costs, and improving their service, and respond accordingly - preventing domination of the marketplace by a government plan.  In which case Moore and other advocates of single payer will have been proven wrong.

But meanwhile, we&#039;ll all be better off.  Except for those whose lifestyles have been dependent on the high profit margins of the private insurance system, of course.  But the best, most innovative, of the insurers will still do quite well if they adapt to a new player in the marketplace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, Sinz.  Yes, most progressives and liberals do believe that giving people a public option, which simplifies the process for obtaining insurance, and reduces the cost of most people obtaining insurance, will lead to a government run universal system.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s because we don&#8217;t believe that private insurance companies have a vested interest in minimizing the amount of money that ends up not being spent on healthcare, but instead is spent on advertising and executive level compensation and bonuses and shareholder profits.</p>
<p>Now, insurance companies might see their survival in the marketplace being tied to reducing those costs, and improving their service, and respond accordingly &#8211; preventing domination of the marketplace by a government plan.  In which case Moore and other advocates of single payer will have been proven wrong.</p>
<p>But meanwhile, we&#8217;ll all be better off.  Except for those whose lifestyles have been dependent on the high profit margins of the private insurance system, of course.  But the best, most innovative, of the insurers will still do quite well if they adapt to a new player in the marketplace.</p>
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		<title>By: DFL</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/michael-moore-obamas-faking-right-heading-left/comment-page-1#comment-59497</link>
		<dc:creator>DFL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9664#comment-59497</guid>
		<description>It is funny how the feinting goes with regards to the health issue.  Michael Moore wants single-payer health care as does President Obama yet they are willing to do it in two or three steps.  Meanwhile, a pal of Moore&#039;s, Russell Mokhiber of Single-Payer Action, has ambushed Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd, among others, for compromising too much on Single-Payer.  In the end, with Mokhiber pushing in one direction and Moore the other, Obama can say he is in the center, at least in the center on the left.  I am not even sure whether Moore and Mokhiber coordinate this ying and yang or whether it is a natural progression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is funny how the feinting goes with regards to the health issue.  Michael Moore wants single-payer health care as does President Obama yet they are willing to do it in two or three steps.  Meanwhile, a pal of Moore&#8217;s, Russell Mokhiber of Single-Payer Action, has ambushed Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd, among others, for compromising too much on Single-Payer.  In the end, with Mokhiber pushing in one direction and Moore the other, Obama can say he is in the center, at least in the center on the left.  I am not even sure whether Moore and Mokhiber coordinate this ying and yang or whether it is a natural progression.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/michael-moore-obamas-faking-right-heading-left/comment-page-1#comment-59444</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 00:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9664#comment-59444</guid>
		<description>Getting back to the original issue, I have two comments:  

1.  Michael Moore didn&#039;t explain how he knows how far to the left Barack Obama really is.  On the other hand, Reverend Wright, who knew Obama much better than Moore does, said pretty much the same thing.

2.  I keep looking and looking in vain on the left-wing blogs and in the statements of prominent liberals &lt;i&gt;to each other&lt;/i&gt; to find someone saying that ObamaCare was never intended to lead us to single-payer.  So far, I haven&#039;t found any. That&#039;s a line they only feed out to the rest of us.

3.  Moore claims that &quot;I would be shocked if, three years from now, there are 50,000 troops in Iraq.&quot;  So would I.  Heck, I would have been shocked at that if McCain had been elected. Because if Iraq still isn&#039;t stabilized by 2012 (!!!), we may as well give up already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Getting back to the original issue, I have two comments:  </p>
<p>1.  Michael Moore didn&#8217;t explain how he knows how far to the left Barack Obama really is.  On the other hand, Reverend Wright, who knew Obama much better than Moore does, said pretty much the same thing.</p>
<p>2.  I keep looking and looking in vain on the left-wing blogs and in the statements of prominent liberals <i>to each other</i> to find someone saying that ObamaCare was never intended to lead us to single-payer.  So far, I haven&#8217;t found any. That&#8217;s a line they only feed out to the rest of us.</p>
<p>3.  Moore claims that &#8220;I would be shocked if, three years from now, there are 50,000 troops in Iraq.&#8221;  So would I.  Heck, I would have been shocked at that if McCain had been elected. Because if Iraq still isn&#8217;t stabilized by 2012 (!!!), we may as well give up already.</p>
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		<title>By: Surreal: Obama Says He Has &#8220;Not Said That He Is A Single Payer Supporter&#8221; &#171; Nice Deb</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/michael-moore-obamas-faking-right-heading-left/comment-page-1#comment-59418</link>
		<dc:creator>Surreal: Obama Says He Has &#8220;Not Said That He Is A Single Payer Supporter&#8221; &#171; Nice Deb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9664#comment-59418</guid>
		<description>[...] Michael Moore is super impressed with Obama&#8217;s &#8220;rope-a-dope strategy&#8221; to advance his side&#8217;s causes, and said so in an interview: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Michael Moore is super impressed with Obama&#8217;s &#8220;rope-a-dope strategy&#8221; to advance his side&#8217;s causes, and said so in an interview: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: barker13</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/michael-moore-obamas-faking-right-heading-left/comment-page-1#comment-59399</link>
		<dc:creator>barker13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9664#comment-59399</guid>
		<description>Re: Brutus1791 // Aug 11, 2009 at 10:32 am (#6) --

&quot;Where’s Bill?&quot;

(*ROFLMAO*) (*RAISING MY HAND*) (*WAVING MY ARM*)

Here I am, Brutus! Just checked in!

(*CHUCKLE*) (*WINK*)

Seriously... what can I say? Sinz... I TRIED to warn you a long time ago about Otto. (*SHRUG*)

* Hey TOM! Before I get caught up chatting with &quot;the gang&quot; allow me to offer &quot;Good Job&quot; with the contribution.

Hey, Brutus... glad to &quot;see&quot; ya! Welcome back!

Hey... quick (and momentary) change of topic:

I discovered a new booze this weekend: Crown Royal Cask 16

http://inebrio.com/thescotchblog/?p=339

FWIT... I don&#039;t know where the reviewers are getting this $100/bottle nonsense from... I paid $39.99 at Shoprite Liquors of Pearl River, NY on Saturday.

FOLKS... to those of you who love whiskey... you&#039;ve GOT to pick up a bottle of this stuff! It&#039;s out of this world and if you can find it like I did for $39.99 it&#039;s a real bargain - it would make a hell of a gift for the whiskey lover on your list. (And great packaging too!)

BILL</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Brutus1791 // Aug 11, 2009 at 10:32 am (#6) &#8211;</p>
<p>&#8220;Where’s Bill?&#8221;</p>
<p>(*ROFLMAO*) (*RAISING MY HAND*) (*WAVING MY ARM*)</p>
<p>Here I am, Brutus! Just checked in!</p>
<p>(*CHUCKLE*) (*WINK*)</p>
<p>Seriously&#8230; what can I say? Sinz&#8230; I TRIED to warn you a long time ago about Otto. (*SHRUG*)</p>
<p>* Hey TOM! Before I get caught up chatting with &#8220;the gang&#8221; allow me to offer &#8220;Good Job&#8221; with the contribution.</p>
<p>Hey, Brutus&#8230; glad to &#8220;see&#8221; ya! Welcome back!</p>
<p>Hey&#8230; quick (and momentary) change of topic:</p>
<p>I discovered a new booze this weekend: Crown Royal Cask 16</p>
<p><a href="http://inebrio.com/thescotchblog/?p=339" rel="nofollow">http://inebrio.com/thescotchblog/?p=339</a></p>
<p>FWIT&#8230; I don&#8217;t know where the reviewers are getting this $100/bottle nonsense from&#8230; I paid $39.99 at Shoprite Liquors of Pearl River, NY on Saturday.</p>
<p>FOLKS&#8230; to those of you who love whiskey&#8230; you&#8217;ve GOT to pick up a bottle of this stuff! It&#8217;s out of this world and if you can find it like I did for $39.99 it&#8217;s a real bargain &#8211; it would make a hell of a gift for the whiskey lover on your list. (And great packaging too!)</p>
<p>BILL</p>
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