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	<title>Comments on: Message to Obama: Listen</title>
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	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: oldgal</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/message-to-obama-listen/comment-page-1#comment-60529</link>
		<dc:creator>oldgal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Listening is different than agreeing.  Fixing things by majority opinion is probably the fastest way to screw things up.  Understanding what to fix, on the other hand, often requires majority input.  Leave the fixing to the experts - I won&#039;t tell them how to fix the economy if they don&#039;t tell me how to fix computer systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Listening is different than agreeing.  Fixing things by majority opinion is probably the fastest way to screw things up.  Understanding what to fix, on the other hand, often requires majority input.  Leave the fixing to the experts &#8211; I won&#8217;t tell them how to fix the economy if they don&#8217;t tell me how to fix computer systems.</p>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/message-to-obama-listen/comment-page-1#comment-60080</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9804#comment-60080</guid>
		<description>sinz54 // Aug 13, 2009 at 6:19 pm 

From RasmussenReports, 11 August 2009:

.......Sinz baby I have as much belief in Rasmussen reports as in the virgin birth or Muhammed going up to heaven on  cloud</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sinz54 // Aug 13, 2009 at 6:19 pm </p>
<p>From RasmussenReports, 11 August 2009:</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;.Sinz baby I have as much belief in Rasmussen reports as in the virgin birth or Muhammed going up to heaven on  cloud</p>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/message-to-obama-listen/comment-page-1#comment-60079</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>.......By the way messrs Minor and Jim Pier our resident economic experts this is that big inflation problem we&#039;ve got


WASHINGTON – Consumer prices were flat in July as energy costs retreated following a big surge in June. Over the past 12 months, prices dropped the most in nearly six decades as the recession and lower energy costs kept a lid on inflation.

The Labor Department said Friday that consumer prices showed no changed in July, in line with analysts&#039; expectations and far below the 0.7 percent jump in June.

Prices fell 2.1 percent over the past 12 months, the biggest annual decline since a similar drop in the period ending in January 1950. Most of the past year&#039;s decline reflects energy prices falling 28.1 percent since peaking in July 2008.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;&#8230;.By the way messrs Minor and Jim Pier our resident economic experts this is that big inflation problem we&#8217;ve got</p>
<p>WASHINGTON – Consumer prices were flat in July as energy costs retreated following a big surge in June. Over the past 12 months, prices dropped the most in nearly six decades as the recession and lower energy costs kept a lid on inflation.</p>
<p>The Labor Department said Friday that consumer prices showed no changed in July, in line with analysts&#8217; expectations and far below the 0.7 percent jump in June.</p>
<p>Prices fell 2.1 percent over the past 12 months, the biggest annual decline since a similar drop in the period ending in January 1950. Most of the past year&#8217;s decline reflects energy prices falling 28.1 percent since peaking in July 2008.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/message-to-obama-listen/comment-page-1#comment-59895</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 22:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9804#comment-59895</guid>
		<description>From RasmussenReports, 11 August 2009:

Public support for the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats has fallen to a new low as just 42% of U.S. voters now favor the plan. That’s down five points from two weeks ago and down eight points from six weeks ago.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that opposition to the plan has increased to 53%, up nine points since late June.

More significantly, 44% of voters strongly oppose the health care reform effort versus 26% who strongly favor it. Intensity has been stronger among opponents of the plan since the debate began.

Sixty-seven percent (67%) of those under 30 favor the plan while 56% of those over 65 are opposed. Among senior citizens, 46% are strongly opposed.

Predictably, 69% of Democrats favor the plan, while 79% of Republicans oppose it. Yet while 44% of Democratic voters strongly favor the reform effort, 70% of GOP voters are strongly opposed to it.
Most notable, however, is the opposition among voters not affiliated with either party. Sixty-two percent (62%) of unaffiliated voters oppose the health care plan, and 51% are strongly opposed. This marks an uptick in strong opposition among both Republicans and unaffiliateds, while the number of strongly supportive Democrats is unchanged. 

The latest polls shows that 26% of voters believe that passage of the Congressional health care plan will lead to a better quality of health care. But most voters (51%) disagree and say the quality will get worse. Seventeen percent (17%) expect it to stay the same.

Voters ages 18 to 29 are closely divided on the question of quality, but those in all older age groups by sizable margins expect quality to worsen.

Seventy-five percent (75%) of Republicans and 59% of unaffiliated voters say passage of the health care plan will cause the quality of health care to go down. Among Democrats, 41% say quality will improve, 25% get worse and 26% stay the same.

Fifty-one percent (51%) of all voters say the cost of health care will go up if the reform proposal passes. Nineteen percent (19%) say costs will go down, and 21% say they will stay the same.

Voters in all age and income groups, again by large margins, believe passage of the reform measure will drive up health care costs.

Republican voters overwhelmingly say costs will go up with the new plan. By a two-to-one margin, unaffiliated voters agree. Democrats are fairly evenly divided as to whether costs will go up or down.
When it comes to health care decisions, 51% of voters fear the federal government more than private insurance companies. But 41% fear the insurance companies more.

Yet only 25% agree with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi that health insurance companies are &quot;villains.&quot;
While Congress has debated reforms to the U.S. health care system, Americans have begun to show greater confidence in it. Forty-eight percent (48%) of adults now say the health care system is good or excellent, and only 19% say it’s poor.

Fifty-four percent (54%) of voters say tax cuts for the middle class are more important than new spending for health care reform, although the president’s top economic advisers have indicated that tax hikes may be necessary to fund the reform plan. That helps explain why 76% say it is likely that taxes will have to be raised on the middle class to cover the cost of health care reform, and 59% say it’s very likely.

Thirty-two percent (32%) favor a single-payer health care system where the federal government provides coverage for everyone, but 57% are opposed to a single-payer plan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From RasmussenReports, 11 August 2009:</p>
<p>Public support for the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats has fallen to a new low as just 42% of U.S. voters now favor the plan. That’s down five points from two weeks ago and down eight points from six weeks ago.</p>
<p>A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that opposition to the plan has increased to 53%, up nine points since late June.</p>
<p>More significantly, 44% of voters strongly oppose the health care reform effort versus 26% who strongly favor it. Intensity has been stronger among opponents of the plan since the debate began.</p>
<p>Sixty-seven percent (67%) of those under 30 favor the plan while 56% of those over 65 are opposed. Among senior citizens, 46% are strongly opposed.</p>
<p>Predictably, 69% of Democrats favor the plan, while 79% of Republicans oppose it. Yet while 44% of Democratic voters strongly favor the reform effort, 70% of GOP voters are strongly opposed to it.<br />
Most notable, however, is the opposition among voters not affiliated with either party. Sixty-two percent (62%) of unaffiliated voters oppose the health care plan, and 51% are strongly opposed. This marks an uptick in strong opposition among both Republicans and unaffiliateds, while the number of strongly supportive Democrats is unchanged. </p>
<p>The latest polls shows that 26% of voters believe that passage of the Congressional health care plan will lead to a better quality of health care. But most voters (51%) disagree and say the quality will get worse. Seventeen percent (17%) expect it to stay the same.</p>
<p>Voters ages 18 to 29 are closely divided on the question of quality, but those in all older age groups by sizable margins expect quality to worsen.</p>
<p>Seventy-five percent (75%) of Republicans and 59% of unaffiliated voters say passage of the health care plan will cause the quality of health care to go down. Among Democrats, 41% say quality will improve, 25% get worse and 26% stay the same.</p>
<p>Fifty-one percent (51%) of all voters say the cost of health care will go up if the reform proposal passes. Nineteen percent (19%) say costs will go down, and 21% say they will stay the same.</p>
<p>Voters in all age and income groups, again by large margins, believe passage of the reform measure will drive up health care costs.</p>
<p>Republican voters overwhelmingly say costs will go up with the new plan. By a two-to-one margin, unaffiliated voters agree. Democrats are fairly evenly divided as to whether costs will go up or down.<br />
When it comes to health care decisions, 51% of voters fear the federal government more than private insurance companies. But 41% fear the insurance companies more.</p>
<p>Yet only 25% agree with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi that health insurance companies are &#8220;villains.&#8221;<br />
While Congress has debated reforms to the U.S. health care system, Americans have begun to show greater confidence in it. Forty-eight percent (48%) of adults now say the health care system is good or excellent, and only 19% say it’s poor.</p>
<p>Fifty-four percent (54%) of voters say tax cuts for the middle class are more important than new spending for health care reform, although the president’s top economic advisers have indicated that tax hikes may be necessary to fund the reform plan. That helps explain why 76% say it is likely that taxes will have to be raised on the middle class to cover the cost of health care reform, and 59% say it’s very likely.</p>
<p>Thirty-two percent (32%) favor a single-payer health care system where the federal government provides coverage for everyone, but 57% are opposed to a single-payer plan.</p>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/message-to-obama-listen/comment-page-1#comment-59838</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 19:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9804#comment-59838</guid>
		<description>sinz54 // Aug 13, 2009 at 7:49 am 
&quot;And now, the more that folks are following the debate, the less they like what is in the package.&quot;

.......Typical of the awfully juvenile arguments you use all the time.....most Americans havn&#039;t got a clue what&#039;s in the legislation other than perhaps a public option which polls show most support although they probably have only a shaky grasp of what it means.....when you have busloads of Republican seniors screaming get the govt out of my Medicare it says it all</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sinz54 // Aug 13, 2009 at 7:49 am<br />
&#8220;And now, the more that folks are following the debate, the less they like what is in the package.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;.Typical of the awfully juvenile arguments you use all the time&#8230;..most Americans havn&#8217;t got a clue what&#8217;s in the legislation other than perhaps a public option which polls show most support although they probably have only a shaky grasp of what it means&#8230;..when you have busloads of Republican seniors screaming get the govt out of my Medicare it says it all</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/message-to-obama-listen/comment-page-1#comment-59780</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9804#comment-59780</guid>
		<description>If Obama were interested in &quot;listening to the people,&quot; he wouldn&#039;t have demanded that a massive health-care reform package be developed, passed and signed by him in just four months, without giving the people time to look at the details of what they were being given.

The people did buy into Obama&#039;s sloganeering about health care reform.  But the devil is in the details, as usual. And now, the more that folks are following the debate, the less they like what is in the package.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Obama were interested in &#8220;listening to the people,&#8221; he wouldn&#8217;t have demanded that a massive health-care reform package be developed, passed and signed by him in just four months, without giving the people time to look at the details of what they were being given.</p>
<p>The people did buy into Obama&#8217;s sloganeering about health care reform.  But the devil is in the details, as usual. And now, the more that folks are following the debate, the less they like what is in the package.</p>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/message-to-obama-listen/comment-page-1#comment-59778</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9804#comment-59778</guid>
		<description>Jim Pier // Aug 12, 2009 at 10:03 pm 

&quot;Puhleez. This is nonsense. This is straight out of the mouth of the Obama administration&quot;

......One wonders if you read any financial newspapers or blogs......it was actually straight out of the mouths of numerous qualified financial and economic commentators

&quot;Are you putting yourself up as an economic expert? So far, this layman is not impressed.&quot;

......I&#039;m just a guy who was in business all his life, ultimately at a fairly senior level, did economics as an undergrad, and has an MBA....but hell what do I know.....and since based on the following comment it&#039;s clear you&#039;re staggeringly ignorant of how the stimulus program is constructed and timed, not to mention  lying about the claims that were made for its impact,  your opinion isn&#039;t really worth very much is it?  

&quot; Naturally people supported it in the beginning because Obama and his Chicken Little administration were scaring the hell out of people, he was newly elected and wildly popular, and he told us it would work immediately. His claims now that what he really had said was that it would take two years to work don’t comport with the facts. &quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Pier // Aug 12, 2009 at 10:03 pm </p>
<p>&#8220;Puhleez. This is nonsense. This is straight out of the mouth of the Obama administration&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;One wonders if you read any financial newspapers or blogs&#8230;&#8230;it was actually straight out of the mouths of numerous qualified financial and economic commentators</p>
<p>&#8220;Are you putting yourself up as an economic expert? So far, this layman is not impressed.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;I&#8217;m just a guy who was in business all his life, ultimately at a fairly senior level, did economics as an undergrad, and has an MBA&#8230;.but hell what do I know&#8230;..and since based on the following comment it&#8217;s clear you&#8217;re staggeringly ignorant of how the stimulus program is constructed and timed, not to mention  lying about the claims that were made for its impact,  your opinion isn&#8217;t really worth very much is it?  </p>
<p>&#8221; Naturally people supported it in the beginning because Obama and his Chicken Little administration were scaring the hell out of people, he was newly elected and wildly popular, and he told us it would work immediately. His claims now that what he really had said was that it would take two years to work don’t comport with the facts. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Pier</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/message-to-obama-listen/comment-page-1#comment-59722</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Pier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 02:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9804#comment-59722</guid>
		<description>Demetrius Minor said:

In regards to the stimulus bill that was passed in February, there was huge resistance to this because the American people knew that this would have no effect on the sluggish economy. However, government failed to listen to the voices of the people and passed the legislation, that has, to this date, produced little or no positive results. Unemployment remains hovering around 9-10%, inflation is high, and the big question that is saturating people’s minds right now is: “Where are the jobs?”

Leaving aside that it was not until some time later that American people began to voice displeasure with the stimulus bill, and also that it is impossible to tell whether or not the stimulus has had a positive effect (whereas in this observer&#039;s judgment it is highly unlikely that the paltry sum spent so far relative to the economy as a whole, and considering the un-stimulating ways it is being spent, has made any difference whatsoever) Demetrius is correct here.  The Obama people went all-out insisting that it had to be passed immediately without even having been read, so that the stimulus could avert the certain economic death spiral that would otherwise have occurred (yeah, right).  Part of their sales pitch was that it would work immediately, and that rather than hitting 9%, unemployment, they projected, would be kept to 8%.  So Demetrius is correct -- the stimulus did not have the immediate impact Obama foolishly said it would, and people got upset about it.  Naturally people supported it in the beginning because Obama and his Chicken Little administration were scaring the hell out of people, he was newly elected and wildly popular, and he told us it would work immediately.  His claims now that what he really had said was that it would take two years to work don&#039;t comport with the facts.  Not a big deal for Obama, I know, but it means something to me and many of my fellow Americans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Demetrius Minor said:</p>
<p>In regards to the stimulus bill that was passed in February, there was huge resistance to this because the American people knew that this would have no effect on the sluggish economy. However, government failed to listen to the voices of the people and passed the legislation, that has, to this date, produced little or no positive results. Unemployment remains hovering around 9-10%, inflation is high, and the big question that is saturating people’s minds right now is: “Where are the jobs?”</p>
<p>Leaving aside that it was not until some time later that American people began to voice displeasure with the stimulus bill, and also that it is impossible to tell whether or not the stimulus has had a positive effect (whereas in this observer&#8217;s judgment it is highly unlikely that the paltry sum spent so far relative to the economy as a whole, and considering the un-stimulating ways it is being spent, has made any difference whatsoever) Demetrius is correct here.  The Obama people went all-out insisting that it had to be passed immediately without even having been read, so that the stimulus could avert the certain economic death spiral that would otherwise have occurred (yeah, right).  Part of their sales pitch was that it would work immediately, and that rather than hitting 9%, unemployment, they projected, would be kept to 8%.  So Demetrius is correct &#8212; the stimulus did not have the immediate impact Obama foolishly said it would, and people got upset about it.  Naturally people supported it in the beginning because Obama and his Chicken Little administration were scaring the hell out of people, he was newly elected and wildly popular, and he told us it would work immediately.  His claims now that what he really had said was that it would take two years to work don&#8217;t comport with the facts.  Not a big deal for Obama, I know, but it means something to me and many of my fellow Americans.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Pier</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/message-to-obama-listen/comment-page-1#comment-59717</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Pier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 02:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9804#comment-59717</guid>
		<description>ottovbvs said:

……..Apart from adding at least 1% to growth in the second quarter and saving an estimated million jobs……and so far only about $150 billion of the stimulus has been disbursed…..and btw Mr Minor inflation is at record lows……I don’t know whether you’re a political expert Mr Minor but you’re definitely not an economic one!

Puhleez.  This is nonsense.  This is straight out of the mouth of the Obama administration.  Rather self-serving, and quite unsubstantiated.  Obama knew when he created this Frankenstein&#039;s Monster of a program that it would be impossible for opponents to prove it had not worked.  It is also the case that it is impossible to prove that it has had any effect.  So the economy has begun to show signs of not collapsing as fast.  Perhaps soon it will show expansion.  That was going to happen at some point - and many were predicting late this year - without the Stimulus.  Obama&#039;s ridiculous claims that it would &quot;save or create 3 to 4 million jobs&quot; was another politically brilliant but economically meaningless ploy, because there is no way to substantiate or disprove that claim either.   

Otto said:   &quot;I don’t know whether you’re a political expert Mr Minor but you’re definitely not an economic one!&quot;

Are you putting yourself up as an economic expert?  So far, this layman is not impressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ottovbvs said:</p>
<p>……..Apart from adding at least 1% to growth in the second quarter and saving an estimated million jobs……and so far only about $150 billion of the stimulus has been disbursed…..and btw Mr Minor inflation is at record lows……I don’t know whether you’re a political expert Mr Minor but you’re definitely not an economic one!</p>
<p>Puhleez.  This is nonsense.  This is straight out of the mouth of the Obama administration.  Rather self-serving, and quite unsubstantiated.  Obama knew when he created this Frankenstein&#8217;s Monster of a program that it would be impossible for opponents to prove it had not worked.  It is also the case that it is impossible to prove that it has had any effect.  So the economy has begun to show signs of not collapsing as fast.  Perhaps soon it will show expansion.  That was going to happen at some point &#8211; and many were predicting late this year &#8211; without the Stimulus.  Obama&#8217;s ridiculous claims that it would &#8220;save or create 3 to 4 million jobs&#8221; was another politically brilliant but economically meaningless ploy, because there is no way to substantiate or disprove that claim either.   </p>
<p>Otto said:   &#8220;I don’t know whether you’re a political expert Mr Minor but you’re definitely not an economic one!&#8221;</p>
<p>Are you putting yourself up as an economic expert?  So far, this layman is not impressed.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Pier</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/message-to-obama-listen/comment-page-1#comment-59716</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Pier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 01:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9804#comment-59716</guid>
		<description>&quot;Does there need to be healthcare reform? No doubt. Healthcare reform needs to be made without endangering the private sector or state rights.&quot;

Of course the real problem is that the prevailing diagnosis of the &quot;crisis&quot; is diametrically opposed to an accurate diagnosis.  There is not a need for more government.  Government has created the crisis.  Government is the problem.  The solution therefore is to remove the tentacles of Leviathan from the health insurance market once and for all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Does there need to be healthcare reform? No doubt. Healthcare reform needs to be made without endangering the private sector or state rights.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course the real problem is that the prevailing diagnosis of the &#8220;crisis&#8221; is diametrically opposed to an accurate diagnosis.  There is not a need for more government.  Government has created the crisis.  Government is the problem.  The solution therefore is to remove the tentacles of Leviathan from the health insurance market once and for all.</p>
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