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Mark Levin’s Palin-Envy

January 14th, 2011 at 8:40 am David Frum | 240 Comments |

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For all the rage that talk radio broadcasts at the outside world, never forget how much its leading figures hate each other. Rush Limbaugh dismisses Bill O’Reilly as “Ted Baxter”: a pompous, ignorant blowhard. Sean Hannity resents and fears the upstart Glenn Back. Mark Levin seethes at his own under-appreciation. It bothers him that the so-called smart people don’t take seriously his Liberty and Tyranny. It vexes him that he does not receive appropriate credit for being the first to call Barack Obama a Marxist.

Now, in the wake of this atrocious crime in Tucson, it sends him over the cliff that some people have unfairly blamed Sarah Palin for inciting the crime. What has that bimbo got that I, Mark Levin, have not got? Why is nobody unfairly blaming me?

Those feelings explain this otherwise baffling tirade on Levin’s show last night.

I’m waiting for an allegation that is very specific against me because I’m going to sue.

I don’t care if they’re bloggers. I don’t care if they’re television hosts. I don’t care if they’re radio hosts.

I’m going to drag your ass into Federal Court.

Oh, you’ll have due process. They’ll all be nice and legal.

I’m going to personally depose you. I’m going to drag you in front of a jury. And I’m going to get your assets.

Somebody has to stand up to this. Somebody has to draw the line.

Chris Matthews, Ed Schultz, Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, test me. Test me. David Frum, you little weasel, test me. All of you.

I believe in the law. I believe in free speech. I believe in responsible speech. Now, you want people to tone it down? OK, good.

Anybody who accuses me of inciting mass-murder in Tuscon, AZ, is going to be sued. Period.

I don’t mean, ‘oh, his rhetoric is incendiary’. Anybody who tries to tie me to that monstrous event.

I’m going to tell you why. When you get behind this microphone everyday and you speak from the heart and millions of people are listening and family and friends they’re listening too. They’re affected by all these things.

Now, I’m a public figure, I’m a big boy, I can handle this. The question is whether these other boys can handle it.

You think I’m kidding? Try me! Because I’m not kidding.

The laws of libel are actually older than the First Amendment. And it is something I am prepared to use.

You’re on notice.

This outburst reminds me of the Jewish joke whose punchline is “Look who thinks he’s nothing.”

Mark Levin has indeed pushed the envelope of crazy and ugly on the air. And yes it would improve America if Levin toned it down. But he did not put gun sights beside Gabby Giffords’ name, and nobody has suggested otherwise.

Yet I am left with this troubling question on re-reading Levin’s monologue the morning after. Why the lawyerly – Clintonian even- precision of Levin’s “Anybody who accuses me of inciting mass-murder in Tucson, AZ, is going to be sued.” Why so specific? Are there other mass murders that Levin is more worried about?


UPDATE: Actually now there is somebody explicitly accusing talk radio of fomenting the Tucson shooting: a wounded survivor of the attack Eric Fuller, a 63-year-old veteran.

Will Mark Levin dare sue HIM? Or was it all cowardly bluster?

Posted at 12:05pm

Recent Posts by David Frum



240 Comments so far ↓

  • lessadoabouteverything

    Gramps:
    На здоровье! За любовь! За счастье

  • Gramps

    “In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.
    - Autobiography of Mark Twain”

  • nuser

    Leesado
    And the pebbles are squabbling(by Musgrave, poet).

  • politicalfan

    WillyP-

    I checked out the link, but didn’t catch what Levin had originally said. I am on the side of ‘son’ of Frum. Any young man that defends his dad by trying to debate is cool in my book.

    Sounds like Levin was mad because his friend got insulted. That is understandable but I don’t have the full story. Sounds like major problems in the party perhaps?

  • Gramps

    lessadoabouteverything // Jan 14, 2011 at 8:36 pm

    То же самое для вас, мой друг!

    I am not that fluent, I use a translator…

  • WillyP

    “WillyP, filthy degenerate. I think I like desperately lonely sad sack willy better. At least my kids would be safe.”

    Lol. OK – right. You keep creating what you want of me in your mind, and I’ll keep saying the obvious: the liberal agenda will be the end of the country as we know it.

    I’m sorry if I’ve offended you. You’re not stupid. You seem like a perfectly normal, average person who got straight B’s, was on their high school soccer team, scored a mean 1,150 on their SATs, graduated from a fine state institution in 4 years flat, and now works as a project manager somewhere. I’m glad you have a nice family and “kids.” They’re served well by their father (mother?) who goes on the internet and accuses conservatives of being “filthy degenerates.”

    How such a miscreant, pervert, degenerate like myself ever managed to get you, the upstanding, forthright, father into a tizzy I’ll never know.

    No no – you strike me as the kind of neighbor who finds a beer bottle on his side of the fence from a party next door, and responds with threats and then calling the police. A hot head weirdo, who has an abnormal interest in the personal relations of others who are not their friends of family. A busybody, a hot head. A perfect prototype liberal.

    And as for my sentences, they are carefully crafted to extract maximum irritation from liberals. I’m sorry if they don’t make sense to you; that is not their intended function. But in that they have annoyed you, I find satisfaction.

    Weirdo.

  • smoorhea

    I registered just so I could tell you that you are an ass! I have heard plenty of people on MSMBC mention Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and YES, Mark Levin….and I’m not sure why you aren’t a registered Democrat, you seem to cheer for them more than for Republicans.

  • lessadoabouteverything

    So SillywillyP, still waiting for your riveting explanation of how this:
    Respect for traditions used to make most, to a point, reverential to the pillars of law that provided for peace and prosperity.

    Is superior to this:
    willy, you are not working anyone up, we are collectively laughing at your rampant narcissism although I must admit your evidently desperate loneliness is kind of sadly pathetic.

    Now I will admit I should have capitalized Willy. Other than this enlighten us, oh great master of English, what precisely is wrong. How does this not pass for a sentence. At most, you can claim it has elements of a run on sentence since “Willy, you are not working anyone up” is a complete thought, however I chose to have two independent clauses with one dependent clause.
    Contrary to the verbal ape, this is allowable and is called a compound-complex sentence, which contains two or more main clauses and one or more subordinate clauses.

    Poor, poor silly willy. This is seventh grade English material.

    So go ahead WillyP, frantically call a grammarian and try to sputter your way out of this:
    Respect for traditions used to make most, to a point, reverential to the pillars of law that provided for peace and prosperity.

    Respect is the subject, so that is fine, but from there it goes frighteningly downhill.
    Respect used to make most reverential to the pillars of law (I truly find this utterly bizarre) that provided (what is that precisely, the pillars? But how do they provide FOR peace and prosperity?)
    The pillars of law can provide peace and prosperity, but they can not provide for peace and prosperity. Damn, the guy can not even use basic prepositions right.

    And this man had the absolute temerity to mock a quickly dashed off sentence of mine with the writings that would be found in Jared Loughner’s notebook.

    Well done WillyP. Is Jared your relative? Did you write your gibberish in a lucid dreaming state? Might I suggest more lucidity and less dreaming?

  • politicalfan

    “I’m not sure why you aren’t a registered Democrat, you seem to cheer for them more than for Republicans”

    Welcome!

  • Gramps

    WillyP // Jan 14, 2011 at 8:55 pm

    Hey Willy…
    Rush uses that line of thought, regularly…
    Interesting…?

    Oooo,,,Ohooo…!

  • WillyP

    I have to say, I think lessado might have a heart attack.

    I’m sorry. Please don’t freak out. I’m doing this for my own entertainment as I have cabin fever and am going stir crazy.

    You can’t write well – anybody who can read will tell you so much – but you are a human being and deserve respect. Believe it or not, I’m not a degenerate, so I pray you calm down, have a beer, and watch some reality t.v.

  • lessadoabouteverything

    “No no – you strike me as the kind of neighbor who finds a beer bottle on his side of the fence from a party next door, and responds with threats and then calling the police.”

    Actually, I am more the neighbor who joins the other neighbor for that bottle of beer as we decide where to go hiking with our kids on the weekend. I have been lucky enough to have hiked in parks on 4 continents. You should try it sometime. Go up to the Ramapo Reservation, it has beautiful views of Manhattan on a clear day. Or you can try the Appalachian Trail at Sunfish Pond & Mount Mohican. These are things that any New Yorker who is not a lazy slob can do on the weekend. Montauk also has some great trails.

    Seriously, you crack me up. I do this because it means nothing, just busting on some pompous dorks chops has its own amusements. I truly do pray that you don’t take any of this remotely seriously, that you have no pretensions that you will be “discovered” here and whisked to the National GOP convention to give the keynote speech.

  • WillyP

    “I do this because it means nothing, just busting on some pompous dorks chops has its own amusements.”

    You can rationalize it any way you want, bud. I hope your kids don’t see it. My how embarrassing that would be.

  • rubbernecker

    Oh man. I am beginning to feel bad for WillyP, even if he has bought in to the far side.

    How ’bout a hug!

    And you might consider:

    Start End + debt +/GDP

    Reagan 32.5% 43.8% 0.66 +11.3%
    Reagan 43.8% 53.1% 1.04 +9.3%
    H. W. Bush 53.1% 66.1% 1.40 +15.0%
    Clinton 66.1% 65.4% 1.18 -0.7%
    Clinton 65.4% 56.4% 0.45 -9.0%
    W. Bush 56.4% 63.5% 1.73 +7.1%
    W. Bush 63.4% 83.4% 2.63 +20.0%
    Obama 83.4%

    Source: wikipedia

    Sorry about the formatting.

  • talkradiosucks.com

    There’s value in a spirited debate with someone on the opposite side who holds legitimate opposing viewpoints and presents them respectfully. There is none in wasting time exchanging insults with someone who openly admits he is posting just to get a reaction, which is the textbook definition of trolling.

  • lessadoabouteverything

    Gramps, спасибо

    I don’t have much Russian myself, just the smattering I picked up when I went to school in Austria, and from a Russia emigre friend of mine.

    I speak Spanish and Mandarin Chinese, Spanish because 20% of the people in my town are Spanish, mostly from Mexico and you really have to speak Spanish to be of real use, and Chinese because my wife is Chinese and I want my kids to learn it (but it is slow going since they are so resistant).

    I wish Spanish language classes were mandatory from Kindergarten on, but the whackjob rightwinger of the WillyP variety would positively freak at the idea. After all, since he can not even compose sentences that well in English, I could see how he would be so threatened by multilingual people.

    I suppose I could take satisfaction that since my children will be citizens ready for a globalized world economy, they will earn far more than his children, but as he is unlikely to ever reproduce I suppose I will have to suffer his deranged opposition.

    WillyP, obviously you are not in any serious relationship. You provided the perfect tell. You stated you were sick and asked for recommendations of what movies to watch on TV. Anyone who is in a serious relationship would know the only one who makes that decision as to what to watch on TV is the wife.

  • politicalfan

    lessado-

    “Anyone who is in a serious relationship would know the only one who makes that decision as to what to watch on TV is the wife.”

    I knew you were a smart man!

  • WillyP

    Classy, very classy. Always a class act, these libs.

    Is this some sort of weird unmarried/dating bias I’m experiencing? Am I supposed to be married right now? (More to the point, is it any of your business?) I have to say I’ve never encountered such a thing. I find it novel, but rather off putting, and even moreso bizarre. Especially from the party which does nothing to defend marriage, and mocks the religious institutions that hold it in such high regard.

    talkradio,
    If you’re concerned about “trolling,” you can blame the subject of Frum’s article. He has a personal vendetta against Mark Levin because he’s j-e-a-l-o-u-s.

    politicalfan,
    I’m not sure I see your question.

  • lessadoabouteverything

    talkradiosucks.com, you are absolutely right. 90% of the time I completely ignore him, but as my wife is watching Oxygen and my kids are watching Nick, I am posting here. It is Friday night so we let them stay up to 9. I also had to say it did amuse me to school him in basic grammar.

    Of course, before I was married on a Friday night I would be out having a good time. Those days are over. Seriously though I have to admit when I was young I would have had no idea how much fun it is to take your children to kids science museums, or to go hiking, or even to go to the Community Center to swim. (which is what we do in the winter)

    As to opposing views, I am very Conservative in many respects. I support Social Security Privatization (I think the original framework was flat out wrong), school vouchers, am pro life, support the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am just not prepared to state that only my view is the only one that anyone can have, nor shall I state that opposing views are, since they oppose mine, delusional, deranged, etc.
    I, of course, think my view of Social Security privatization is feasible, let me also add it is not “mine” since I hold that view in common with many others but I am prepared to do that using logic and arguments, not from a supposed perch of divine wisdom.

    Willyp has no idea how much of an embarrassment he is in advancing the cause of social security privatization. He would just hurl random insults for effect and it would never happen since his childishness would ruin the discussion.

  • Gramps

    This could really turn into some fun…

    I’m thinkin’ Frum’s Forum, has gotten el rushbo’s… little arse, tiny, winy, goat…
    Rush, him ownself, doesn’t have the “cajones” to debate any person, online in person…!

    “…And as for my sentences, they are carefully crafted to extract maximum irritation from liberals. I’m sorry if they don’t make sense to you; that is not their intended function. But in that they have annoyed you, I find satisfaction.blockquote>

    WOW Frumer’s…that’s right out of “el rushbo’s” daily spiel…
    Annoyance and disruption, is the name of his game…!

    rock…paper…scissors…
    Hehehe…!

    Damn this could be some real fun…!

  • politicalfan

    ?

  • pnumi2

    Elementry, my dear Lessado.

  • WillyP

    Let’s quote the dedicated, moral father…

    says lessado:

    “Spoken like a true fascist, only he is capable of determining what is a good viewpoint.”

    “I notice you wrote you are in a immature relationship. Therefore you are “dating” a young girl? You filthy degenerate. WillyP is perfectly apt. Willy the Pervert.”

    “You are such a funny sillylittlewilly, now go back to your immature relationship (or actually, don’t. since I am truly frightened that what you thought passed for humor was also an inside joke to yourself) WillyP, filthy degenerate. I think I like desperately lonely sad sack willy better. At least my kids would be safe.”

    You see, I’m a fascist, a degenerate, a pervert, and a danger to children.

    High mindedness argumentation at its finest.

  • talkradiosucks.com

    “If you’re concerned about “trolling,” you can blame the subject of Frum’s article. He has a personal vendetta against Mark Levin because he’s j-e-a-l-o-u-s.”

    Yes I’m talking about trolling, and thanks for a good example.

  • tohojo

    I want a Left Wing Fever Swamp/FF coffee mug.

  • lessadoabouteverything

    sure willyP, you know I am right. You simply can not imagine it is not your politics but your personality which leads me easily to deduce your life situation. Believe it or not I have met many obnoxious know it alls who wonder why they aren’t married. How does that line go? Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one but not everyone has to be one.

    I never argue politics outside of the internet. I have a friend who read every book by Ayn Rand (my hiking buddy) another who listens to Rush Limbaugh, I also have a friend who voted for Ralph Nader. Face to face it is all good because we never argue and we never insult. I have only one friend I got into full on arguments over, and we had a number of times we stopped being friends, but even with him we have outgrown it.

    I have 3 boys under the age of 10, believe it or not you have to develop a hell of a thick skin and a great deal of equanimity to get through the days. Just the other day my son and his 10 year old built like a truck friend were wrestling and put a huge hole in the drywall in the basement. And you seriously think your taunts will bother me?
    Last month my 2 year old had pnuemonia, he is fine now but that was what mattered to me more than everything else in the world, apart from the daily health of my other 2 children.

    I don’t know if you understand, but the vast majority of us here have real lives outside of the make pretend one here at Frumforum. Try to remember that when you imagine that you are winding liberals up.

    But I suppose I would have better luck talking to my broken dry wall than I ever would have with you. Your childishness does help remind me to keep perspective though.

  • Kurlis

    I like Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and Mark Levin. I don’t mind that they may or may not like each other. Each one is a powerful voice of rational persuasion within the conservative movement. Personally, I like Laura Ingraham better than all of them.

    I think it doesn’t reflect well on David Frum that he personally attacks anyone within the conservative movement.

  • lessadoabouteverything

    Kurlis,
    Would it ever bother you if Obama attacked Michael Moore? Or any Democrat pundit attack any other far left person? Clinton had his sister souljah moment, Obama rebuked the entire left wing of the party in pushing through the extension of the tax cuts. Do you think Obama is dissing his party, or is he putting the interest of the country first? In his speech in Arizona he pointed declared that the violence was not caused by rhetoric. Again, did he do injustice to the Democratic party? Why can’t Frum do the same from his side of the aisle?

  • politicalfan

    Kurlis-

    There is an overlap. Who is the pundit or leader of the party?

  • WillyP

    lessado,
    I’m so happy you’ve reconnected with your mature side. Congratulations on your destructive children. I had pneumonia at about 1 month old on Christmas Eve, and I still here about it from my parents.

    “make pretend one here at Frumforum.”
    Well, OK. That’s nice. I’m happy you like to pretend.

    Yes, well normal people have friends of all political and apolitical stripes. I’m not sure I need to congratulate you on this one.

  • lisabeth

    What’s really sad is the nastiness on this blog. Which side is it coming from???
    Sorry I don’t buy your both sides are equally to blame. If you sat back with a note book and looked more objectivel at the rhetoric, it’s pretty obvious where most of it comes from. I said most, not all.
    And I anticipate it getting worse if journalists don’t stop being so PC and tell the truth.
    People can talk as freely as they want, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t consequences.

    I have never listened to Levin but it’s obvious he has an ego problem.
    I honestly know nothing about him but he sounds like a bully or someone with a Napolean complex.

  • nwahs

    “I think it doesn’t reflect well on David Frum that he personally attacks anyone within the conservative movement.”

    Well to be honest, Frum is attacked regularly by right wing personalities and web sites. Its surprising that he joined the food fight. David Brooks hasn’t, and he gets as much grief. So yea, I think the personal attacks knock him down a notch ( only because it seems so unprofessional), but a lot of them are just tit for tat. I don’t think it reflects well on Limbaugh and the rest of the clowns either. But thats their shtick. Evidently, its becoming Frum’s shtick.

  • Gramps

    Analysts are aware and akey to most of the common human digressive, traits…

    Displays of narcissi, arrogance and inferiority are some of the most common, during initial screening…
    When an individual displays all three of these traits…red flags abound.

    I might add…you only become “schizo” and paranoid after in- service for your country, for extended period[s]…
    Never had a problem before…

    Honest, Uncle…
    Hehehe…!

  • talkradiosucks.com

    Kurlis, if they actually were rational, I and most other people here probably wouldn’t have an issue with them.

    The problem is that they are not rational, they employ dishonest propagandizing techniques, and they frequently exhibity no ability to form or even comprehend logical argumentation. They also constantly resort to innuendos and outright lies about their opponents — shamelessly so. Limbaugh this week went so far as to accuse the Democrats of providing “full support” to the Arizona shooter. You’re going to defend that?

    And legitimate movements don’t require that their members swear oaths of unwavering loyalty. It is the duty of any honest person to ask questions and refuse to toe the party line when they see that things have gone off the rails — as it most definitely has in the current “lamestream” conservative movement.

  • politicalfan

    nwahs-

    Let’s be honest, controversy works. Sad but true.

  • WillyP

    politicalfan,
    Since you asked, and are polite enough to grant me the benefit of the doubt of not being a a menace to society…

    Consider the state of the nation. We are in a depression, statistical definitions aside. When you’re at 9% unemployment for this long, you’re in a depression.

    The question is, how did we get here?

    The Keynesians offer one answer; they claim there was a collapse in demand after the housing bubble burst. This line of thinking suggests that as people’s home prices reduced, they became more frugal because their had lost substantial amounts of equity. In addition, any loans made against mortgages were now suspect (that is, their collateral suddenly became far less valuable). This decrease in the amount of available credit, coupled with unemployment, set the stage for a huge collapse in demand.

    Famously, the solution provided by modern economists is government stimulus. There are two tools for stimulus: fiscal policy, that is, spending money through the Federal budget, either through borrowing or by depleting surpluses; and monetary policy, which says that in order to stimulate spending, you need to loosen credit. You loosen credit by reducing interest rates. And you reduce interest rates by providing more loanable funds to lenders – banks. Specifically, the central banks purchases government debt with “printed” money, and banks competitively loan the money at lower than market rates. This, after all, is the whole point.

    Towards the end of his term, Bush had a very low approval rating. As markets collapsed, he passed TARP, he bailed out the automakers (possibly in an illegal manner), and generally gave the impression that the government was there to “stop the bleeding.”

    Obama then took office, and passed Stimulus I & II, ratcheted up budgetary spending, and has since expanded government spending and personnel.

    The Republican Party had to choose whether they become “Obama Lite” (e.g. the Stimulus should have been smaller) or “Obama Smart” (e.g., we’d spend your money better than Obama). Furthermore, and Frum specific, they had to reaffirm their stances on social issues (gay marriage, abortion), illegal immigration (close the border, or do “comprehensive immigration reform), environmental regulations (specifically, whether or not to tax CO2 emissions), and women (through, presumably policies that favor females? to be honest I’m not sure what Frum proposed here).

    Levin saw and sees these new ideas as ludicrous. He would tell you, if you listened to his program or read his books, the our government was too big to begin with, has caused the depression through deliberate policy (Community Reinvestment Act, low interest rates from the Fed, the outgrowth – as a result of intervention – of derivative products, and… there’s one more he listed, but it escapes me at the moment). He would argue that to “fix” a recession, what you do is cut government, lift regulations, and free up the private sector. You allow liquidations and you allow prices to adjust. This, after all, was his experience with Reagan, in whose administration he served. In other words, Obama Lite or Obama Smart would not suffice, but instead Not Obama! or Anti-Obama! Do the opposite. (You see here how the Austrian perspective on the economic science figures into the conservative movement. It’s a repudiation of Keynesianism on both sides, period.)

    As to the other elements, suffice to say that Levin was not for loosening on social issues, for a secure southern border, does not believe in anthropomorphic global warming, and was not interested in more affirmative action programs, this time aimed at women.

    Furthermore, as the argument goes, in 1980 our debt was not nearly what it was in 2009. It was relatively small. Therefore, the wrong policies are that much more perilous, because a wrong turn could be catastrophic. It could condemn future generations to very high taxes if the theories of the Keynesians were wrong (which, in Levin’s opinion, are). It would set the precedent for a pervasive government that regulated everything, like in Great Britain. And like Great Britain, Greece, France, Italy, Portugal, and Ireland, the government would inevitably run up such a critical mass of debt that there would be genuine currency fears. What do you think created the Tea Party?

    While Frum urged compromise with the Democrats, Levin viewed them (and views them) as Marxist – hard left ideologues who fundamentally think America is a nasty, unfair, racist place. To fix these problem, the Left wields the tool of government and social engineers. What stands in the way of the left is the U.S. Constitution, which is fairly limiting as Constitutions go. Levin would characterize the Left’s view of society as immature, ignorant of economics, and displaying a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world and economy actually work. The Left therefore hates the Constitution because limits their methods. To get around the problem of enumerated powers, they have 1) the bureaucracy 2) sympathetic courts 3) executive power 4) crashing the system, and rewriting the ground rules (in other words, fundamentally altering the relation between the government and the people vis-a-vis revising the Constitution wholesale). Levin, as one who adores and cherishes the Constitution and the magnificent society it has provided for, is not interested in compromise but in victory.

    It is this sort of talk – screw the Left, they are destructive and irresponsible – that Frum finds so unbearable. I don’t know why he finds it so jarring, but at any rate it doesn’t please him. Frum is very policy oriented, supported RomneyCare and hence Obamacare. This was really the last straw between two competing views. Levin Republicans would never accept further incursions into the most personal aspect of our economy, health care. Frum Republicans are convinced that statistical, wonkish analysis holds the key to lower costs. Essentially, the Frum Republicans reject the teachings of economics, and the Levin Republicans understand that more government control, as opposed to less, will raise costs, best intentions being irrelevant.

    Frum penned a very nasty piece about Rush Limbaugh, and regularly attacked Levin in print (you can read his review of “Liberty and Tyranny”). Finally Levin called him out, basically asserting that he was hardly a conservative. He was, essentially, a Rockefeller (i.e. big government) Republican, like Ford and Nixon. He sacrificed principle for political expediency. And his counsel would lead not only the party into oblivion, but could the nation, as well (for the reasons explained above).

    Is that about enough? I suppose I could write more but my eyes are closing.

  • pnumi2

    So David Frum raised impious war in Heaven (the right-wing corner thereof) and dared to become more objective in his political observations. And for this ambition and vain attempt:

    Him the Almighty Power
    Hurled headlong flaming from th’ ethereal sky
    With hideous ruin and combustion down
    To bottomless perdition, there to dwell
    In adamantine chains and penal fire,
    Who durst defy th’ Omnipotent to arms.

    Yes, it’s Paradise Lost to cross swords with the Omnipotent
    Rushbo over politics or lobster risotto.

  • politicalfan

    WillyP-

    Hope you are feeling better and get rest. Thanks for elaborating.

    I agree on some points here but there is one that definitely does not appeal to me personally as a woman and (Independent). While, I understand the political wrangle, it is a huge gamble to say the least. I do not paint the Tea Party with a wide brush. There are some folks in there that have major concerns about the government. I get that- the issue is going to be what we cut out of the budget?

    This is the problem that I have with the party. I was okay with McCain but not his running mate. I would definitely vote for a moderate Republican but couldn’t vote for a bonafide conservative if they try to sail in on heavy rhetoric. I reside in a very red state and most ‘R’ women that I know are not fans of Palin. Those that do embrace her rarely tune into politics on a regular basis. I liked her first speech but then slowly got turned off. I am using her as an example because I think there needs to be broad appeal. I don’t think McCain’s policies would have been much different (without Palin). We would not have health care and some obvious partyline issues.

    Contrary to what you might think, I actually listen to a variety of opinions. The negative theatre has pulled me more to the left. Understanding the issues that are facing us are getting hijacked by the rhetoric. Just one question, “what would you have done differently regarding the bailouts?”

  • Gramps

    lessadoabouteverything // Jan 14, 2011 at 9:22 pm

    OFF TOPIC…and aside…

    Hey “laae”…I really like the “cut of yer jib”…even though I’m an olde soldier and not a sailor.

    I’m with you entirely with respect to the language requirement…for our children and grand children…!
    Required studies…my grandkids are learning Spanish…in high school.

    Mandarin… that’s a real accomplishment…!

    I once met a Sanford grad that was accomplished in Mandarin, on Taiwan, that accompanied me in Vietnam.
    She escorted me in the [Cholin District] in Saigon, now [Ho Chi Minh City]…
    The language of the people…is a very powerful tool…!

    All my very best…!

  • rubbernecker

    Ha pnumi2.

    I must misunderstand WillyP because it sounds like he’s saying that it’s all the fault of the Community Reinvestment Act and the Fed that Wall Street resorted to fraud, and if only Bush hadn’t been so vulnerable toward the end of his term then his free market angels would have prevailed, fluttering over a landscape of collapsing banks and major industries until the market corrected itself and the republic emerged shining on the hill, free of Mexicans and gays.

    Of course at this point we all await the R’s suggestions on what to cut from the government. That bridge to nowhere act won’t fly now.

    I’ve listened to Levin, by the way, and he is a nasty and hysterical ideologue.

  • WillyP

    which bailouts? banks or autos? or states?

  • WillyP

    rubbernecker,
    very serious you are. pick up a book, would you?

    http://mises.org/rothbard/agd.pdf

    or at least a lecture?
    http://mises.org/daily/3870

  • politicalfan

    WillyP-

    The banks irritate me (there are some elements that are beyond my knowledge) so let’s say autos!

  • rubbernecker

    WillyP! I am deadly serious. Please explain what could have been done in 2008 to avoid this imminent takeover by Constitution-hating Marxists.

    UPDATE: OK, I’ll read the lecture.

  • MaxTwain

    Inciting violence? I can’t think of anything that did that better then “Axis of Evil”, can you David?

    Can the author of the war-mongering “Axis of Evil” talk really blame others for their tone? David, you encouraged a nation to go to war under false pretenses. Sarah Palin’s son risked his life in that war.

    Perhaps it’s time you critique a few liberals for a change, no?

  • WillyP

    politicalfan,
    If you’re OK paying for companies that are fundamentally unprofitable, paying for unions that accept government charity (i.e. your tax money), the production of cars that not enough people buy/if they do buy are sold at a loss, and in general, to perpetuating companies that will not survive under accepted accounting rules, then fine – we can bail out the car companies.

    however, there’s no reason why 1) a private company couldn’t “bail them out”
    2) they cannot pay their workers and still be in the black, like all other businesses
    3) the government should be in the business of picking favorite industries based on political connections

    let the union restructure the contract; let a private bank bail them out; fire all bad management and actually make cars people buy at a profit. while they’re at it, ask the government to stop mandating stricter and stricter guidelines for production and fuel consumption.

    that’s the sensible solution. what was actually done was bail out a politically connected, irresponsible union.

  • politicalfan

    WillyP,

    I see some good points in there but answer this one question. What would have happened if the auto bailout did not happen? I am assuming that your reasoning for the bailout was due only because of political connections? That is two questions but the first is for the response. I just want to add. Is the issue of the bailouts that they were connected to the Bush administration?

    Is it that 8 years of a Republican President were not conservative enough? I find it odd that in 2 years the sky is falling. Trust me, I have heard about the horrible debt that this President has caused. However, I think that is messaging and being highly uninformed. I don’t agree with all of the current policies (but I have failed to see a comprehensive plan) come from the Republican party. Let’s just say that I don’t see them going conservative any time soon. I also realize that there is a chain of policies that can create unintended consequences. What is your solution? I think we can exam what has been done and find a ton of things to criticize. The only good thing about 2012 is that we will actually hear the plans. (Will they ever be executed is the issue).

  • politicalfan

    Max Twain-

    “Perhaps it’s time you critique a few liberals for a change, no?”

    Mr. Frum is obviously a Republican, is this a call to rhetorical land?

  • WillyP

    political,
    the republican party needs to get its act together, which i’ve said 1,000 times. this is beginning to happen since they adopted the adamant tea party, but it may take a while. unfortunately we’re running out of time regarding the debt. i doubt very much we could make it another 10 years with 9-10% unemployment, higher taxes, and crippling debt without very serious effects which would fundamentally remake american society. in short, america taking a backseat position in world affairs. not my idea of a good time.

  • Gramps

    To health! For the love! For happiness

    Ура…!