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Mark Levin’s latest Facebook entry replies to me:
Two thoughts in reply.
1) This episode began with Jim Manzi noting that Mark Levin’s chapter on global warming is unreliable and irresponsible. If you want to rebut the charge of unreliability, you shouldn’t defend yourself by inventing stories. I was indeed fired from AEI, just as Mark says, although rather obviously not for the reasons Mark says. But NR? Where’d that come from? I think he has me mixed up with Chris Buckley, whose column was terminated after he announced that he would vote for Barack Obama. That story constitutes a black spot on the reputation of NR, not Chris Buckley, whose presence distinguished the magazine much more than the other way around. These facts are easily checked, e.g. in this New York Times report.
Sloppy work.
2) But Mark does raise one valid point. That post of mine that said Levin’s previous book, Men in Black “should not be dismissed”? Yes, I concede that is embarrassing. The praise was faint, but still excessive, and I regret it. I was trying to find something nice to say about a then-colleague. If Mark is saying I should have spoken as forthrightly in 2005 as Jim Manzi did in 2010, I have to admit: yes he’s right.
ktward: Dude, why so cynical. FF isn’t part of the Con establishment– as Frum is painfully aware.
Because “ottovbs” wants Frum to fail.
“ottovbs” is here, not just to debate, but to discourage and spread defeatism. He wants the Dems to continue in power for the foreseeable future (which I don’t have a problem with). And hence he tries to discourage or depress any fledgling attempts by the GOP and conservatives to get their act together and come up with a positive platform (which I do have a problem with). We can have debates without propaganda and psy-ops.
We can discuss issues without “ottovbs”‘s incessant calls for us to pack it in, give up, it’s hopeless, don’t bother even trying, “sinz” is a dupe, and all the rest of his psychological warfare.
Sorry, folks, Frum isn’t giving up, Manzi isn’t giving up, and I’m not giving up.
Deal with it.
ktward // Apr 25, 2010 at 5:24 pm
ottovbvs // Apr 25, 2010 at 4:12 pm:
“Dude, why so cynical.
…..Probably because I’m a complete cynic
sinz54 // Apr 25, 2010 at 5:46 pm
“Because “ottovbs” wants Frum to fail.”
……Au contraire I want him to succeed but I don’t think it’s at all likely in the short term because the GOP is so completely in the grip of the lunatic right…..the only effective way to exorcize them is a prolonged stay in the wilderness
……I also like to prick the balloons of folks like yourself who seem very anxious to start major wars in the middle east that would be calamitous for US interests on the basis of no knowledge of history or geopolitics; or other assorted economic geniuses who pontificate away about economic matters without the faintest knowledge of how the financial system works or the most basic understanding of economic science…..apart from some vicarious pleasure this also serves a serious purpose in that until these fantasies and myths are dispelled the GOP can’t really be trusted to govern.
@sinz54
All due respect, you have your, er, special moments. Don’t we all.
You have to hand it to otto (and balcone), he does have a gift for shining a light on the absurd. And ridicule of the absurd, IMHO, is a public service.
Meantime, this Congress is on the clock. Without wasting time today parsing Obama’s To-Do list or Reid’s knee-jerk over AZ’s Immigration beaut, I sure hope that clock doesn’t run out before the Energy Bill is passed: I have considerable concern that post mid-terms Congress will grind to a near halt.
Poor Graham though. Can’t blame him for a cranky overreaction, his To-Do list was nuked without warning. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
p.s. I can understand Frum’s reservations re the science column, but a sciencedaily or sciencemag feed could only up the IQ mean around here. Meantime, I’ll keep my eyes peeled for any imminent asteroids.
ottovbvs // Apr 25, 2010 at 6:37 pm:
…..Probably because I’m a complete cynic
Fair enough. Someone’s gotta do it.
Not a cynic myself, but I agree with you: the GOP is one scary outfit anymore. Indeed, I’m going to cringe when I pull the lever for Giannoulias, but if it keeps one less Groupthinker out of the Senate, I can sleep at night.
Ottovbvs wrote: “Au contraire I want [Frum]to succeed . . . ”
Are you sure you want this? Although Frum has been highly critical of Palin, Beck et al and the GOP far right, he has yet to distance himself from their substantive policy positions. He seems critical of them only because he believes they are electoral losers at the national level. Despite all the conservative aspects of the HCR bill, he still opposed it. He still thinks the Iraq war was a good idea. And, except for maybe Financial Reform, I suspect he will find a way to oppose every other Dem legislation that comes up no matter how moderate it may be.
To me, Frum seems interested in moderating GOP political tactics, but not GOP policy positions.
nhthinker // Apr 25, 2010 at 5:18 pm
You don’t respond when you are called out on your logical errors but at least you start the conversations with an attempt to be rational.
This is a blog, not group therapy. Any expectation of ‘closure’ is misplaced; people come and go for a gazillion reasons, no Dr.’s note required.
ktward,
“This is a blog, not group therapy. Any expectation of ‘closure’ is misplaced; people come and go for a gazillion reasons, no Dr.’s note required.”
I find historically that you always respond when you think you have a good answer, and
when your logic errors are pointed out, then you don’t respond.
But such correlation could just be a mere series of coincidences: just like global warming.
You can be rest assured that I don’t expect a note from any of your doctors.
SpartacusIsNotDead // Apr 25, 2010 at 7:54 pm
“Are you sure you want this?”
……What I really meant was that I want him to be successful in pulling the GOP back into reality because I do believe we need two viable parties for the system to work…….at the moment the GOP has lost it completely so I’m in sympathy with his general aims although I well recognize he occupies all kinds of untenable positions notably on foreign affairs and as I’ve pointed out many times he’s one of the people in the GOP for bringing the present situation about……he was quite happy to use the cannon fodder but now the fodder are calling the shots.
Is it my imagination or do the comments on this particular issue seem particularly venomous? Attacking David Frum’s family is really bottom of the barrel. I thought we were talking about issues, not making personal attacks.
SpartacusIsNotDead: To me, Frum seems interested in moderating GOP political tactics, but not GOP policy positions.
There’s a limit to how much the GOP can change.
The GOP is going to remain a more conservative party than the Dems.
We conservatives are nationalists; we believe in individual liberty and the free market and using the Federal Government as the last, not the first, resort.
Those things can’t change, because they are the principles of the party.
The specific policies should change though.
In fact, part of the change I would like to see is less hypocrisy and more support for those principles. Agribusiness subsidies and crackdowns on medical marijuana are not consistent with those principles.
But do I want the GOP to be a carbon copy of the Dems, so that elections are only about personality? No way.
The GOP is going to remain a more conservative party than the Dems.
I certainly believe that this is exactly what David expects and desires. He just wants them to be the party of reality. The Gingrich and Bush years showed us how bad things can get when you decide to govern Fantasyland rather than the United States, and assess tax cuts with calculations like 10-2=11. [Insert "Spinal Tap" reference here.]
The Dems have proven to be the reality-based problem solvers of late, but I believe that this is mostly due to Obama. Once his tenure is over, I don’t have a s***pot full of faith in the Dem Congress.
Sinz wrote: “We conservatives are nationalists; we believe in individual liberty and the free market and using the Federal Government as the last, not the first, resort . . . part of the change I would like to see is less hypocrisy and more support for those principles.”
1. “Individual liberty and free markets” are inane phrases because there is no meaningful political party that does not claim to believe in these things. Actual policies are what distinguish parties from each other – not the inane slogans they spout.
2. There’s no evidence the GOP looks to government primarily as a last resort. It either looks to government as a primary help (i.e. farm subsidies, corporate tax subsidies, etc.) or it doesn’t look to government as a resort at all (healthcare). Incidentally, this is true of Dems as well. The only difference is on what issues the parties tend to favor government involvement.
3. I’m sure you genuinely believe what you’ve written, but it’s rather astonishing that you and most other conservatives completely miss the incoherence in your own statements and positions. Case in point, you listed the things the GOP “believes” and then you criticize the GOP for being hypocritical by not enacting policies that are consistent with its “beliefs.” This may come as a shocker to you, but it’s not actually a “belief” unless it is substantiated by consistent actions.
this is all very amusing.
Levin will be vindicated in the only way that matters – Republicans will dominate in the midterm elections, off the fire and passion and erudition from The Great One!
Can Frum say that?
Unbeknownst to most of these Democrat partisans here, Frum has been losing HIS credibility with nearly everyone on the right. That is the far right, the near right, the practical right, and even many of the squishy moderate types are distancing themselves from Frum, or at least scratching their heads at Frum’s antics.
Frum doesn’t highlight the moderate Republicans who ALSO disagree with him… except to claim they are all engaged in a kind of “groupthink”. I suppose Frum could say those who believe 2=2 =4 are also wrapped up in some kind of mathematical groupthink, and people just don’t understand set theory.
And to read through these comments, there isn’t ONE Republican these folks ever name that they come close to agreeing with. Not one. They are all bad. ALL to far right for these folks. They just use the near right as examples of what a “reasonable” Republican is to trash effective conservatives, all the while disagreeing with the near right guy too!
Mark Levin is effective. David Frum is ineffective. It matters not whether Frum agrees with Levin on any number of issues, Frum and Levin are at odds in political strategy and tactics.
What is really strange is that after the 2008 elections, where moderate centrist McCain got trounced by a newcomer socialist with a timely demographic, and then the trend was further evidenced by some azure-blue states electing Governors and Senators, Frum is digging in his heels all the more like some spoiled kid who won’t admit he was wrong..
On this site any political news that doesn’t support Frum’s theories doesn’t make the editorial cut. Like the Arlen Specter Pat Toomey race…It’s embarrassing for Frum better to not talk about it because Frum was on record begging people to keep voting for Arlen no matter what because he feared we’d lose the race. Frum argued repeatedly for Specter who proved EXACTLY what we conservatives were saying, that he’s a craven politician who can’t be trusted. Polls that show a GOP resurgence are ignored. Any shred of information that detracts from the Tea Parties is touted.
I sometimes think Frum likes to be in disagreement, policy-wise, with everyone but wants love and acceptance from all quarters. When the right gets mad at him he seeks comfort with the Democrats who tell him he’s at least playing “nice”, even though they think he’s wrong for different reasons, and when Republicans DON”T accept him as some kind of political prophet because he’s been so wrong so many times, he gets petulant and lashes out.
One wonders if the Democrats were to all become little Joe Lieberman’s tomorrow when it comes to national security and Israel, would Frum join the party?
Judging by the kind of commenter Frum attracts to his “party that can win again” site, he’s got it EXACTLY wrong.
Now it’s time for Mark Levin to come on the radio to talk to his MILLIONS of listeners. He may well ignore Frum, I hope he doesn’t. I hope he doesn’t call David too many names though that’s only there, because Mr. Frum has a very thin skin. I don’t really like too much name-calling people’s misshapen heads and such…for the record I think Frum has a quite normal shaped head as heads go, so he shouldn’t take those things too personal. But Levin is trying to help Frum. You see it isn’t his fault that he is so misguided, it is Frum’s head-shape that must be the cause…that is fundamentally what Levin is trying to convey here.
I think Frum might benefit from a therapy session where he can get hold of an effigy of Mark Levin and scream names at it – even knock it around a bit, all in private in a soundproof room, and then he’d be better equipped psychologically to engage Levin in a battle of wits. Really, David try it…let it all go…don’t worry, it won’t be like you are screaming at a Democrat…we know that is unacceptable behavior, but screaming at Levin? Democrats will like you even more…
Spartacus is dead on in his comments regarding the talking points on the right. Frum to his credit is a thinking mans conservative. Despite his fear of all things Iranian, I find him to have well considered views on many issues even though I do not support the modern conservative movement. What is lost in the ideology coming from the right is any true representation of the past as a means of education. If WW2 spending got us out of the Depression via massive debts and fiscal policy, they ignore that and focus on the meager results of too little spending up until 1941. It is these deeply ideological errors that we have learned to ignore most conservative talkers as empty suits. Give me a well articulated conservative that is not disputing facts but arguing about goals and policies and then we can have our nation back. Give me Sara Palins and Rush Limbaughs and we will continue to be the laughing stock of the world.
Sinan // Apr 26, 2010 at 7:05 pm
……franco is the typical conservative brain on steroids…..pretty isn’t it?
This deserves reposting in full:
SpartacusIsNotDead // Apr 25, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Ottovbvs wrote: “Au contraire I want [Frum]to succeed . . . ”
Are you sure you want this? Although Frum has been highly critical of Palin, Beck et al and the GOP far right, he has yet to distance himself from their substantive policy positions. He seems critical of them only because he believes they are electoral losers at the national level. Despite all the conservative aspects of the HCR bill, he still opposed it. He still thinks the Iraq war was a good idea. And, except for maybe Financial Reform, I suspect he will find a way to oppose every other Dem legislation that comes up no matter how moderate it may be.
To me, Frum seems interested in moderating GOP political tactics, but not GOP policy positions.”
Mr. Slave wants Frum to become a full-on Democrat before supporting him. Otto wants Frum to mislead the GOP (fat chance). Otto is operating at a (slightly) higher level here…sorry Mr. Slave..
“Despite all the conservative aspects of the HCR bill, he still opposed it. ” Hahahahaha…. conservative aspects….too funny….
“Despite his fear of all things Iranian….”
Another funny line…
Frum no doubt has no problem with the food, the carpets, even the hashish….Christaine Ammanpour is still kinda hot for an old-gal CNN reporter..but this guy who keeps saying these kinda negative, sorta anti-Semitic things about Israel and Jews, and is funding Hezbollah’s attacks against civilian Israelis, and is intent on getting nukes and delivery systems for them… maybe that is something to worry about just a little, I mean after one deals with the Tea Party threat, of course.
franco 2 wrote: “Mr. Slave wants Frum to become a full-on Democrat before supporting him.”
I don’t have any intention whatsoever of supporting Frum. I think Frum cares only about winning and not at all about policy. If he were to change and become concerned with policy (and be intellectually honest), then I suspect I could support him because he likely would advocate Dem policy positions. Until then, he will continue to support the incoherent GOP policies while advocating for more acceptable political tactics.
franco 2 wrote: ““Despite all the conservative aspects of the HCR bill, he still opposed it. ” Hahahahaha…. conservative aspects….too funny….”
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Testimony/Laying-the-Groundwork-for-Universal-Health-Care-Coverage
Why should NR have openly announced Obama voters on its writing staff? The magazine is not supposed to be a sinecure for the Buckley family. Nor an “Onion” style collection of impressively witty satirical writers with no commitment to conservatism.
I’m not calling for perfect purity. While being weak on social values, free markets, or strong national defense might be acceptable if you are terrific on one or more of the other two.
But voting Obama is a bridge too far. There is no defensible rationale; there are no legitimate criteria, permitting a conservative of any variety to vote for Obama.
If you wanted America to lose in Iraq, you could vote Libertarian or Constitution Party. If you favor abortion and are hostile to traditional family values, the LP is available. If you oppose free trade, the CP was there. Obama offered not one conservative stance on any issue.
Does Conservatism Need Fox News? - Ross Douthat Blog - NYTimes.com // Jun 30, 2010 at 12:51 pm
[...] one of the exchanges that rippled outward from last week’s debate on National Review Online, Levin exhumed an old [...]