Comments on: Let’s Make A Deal http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:50:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: oodoodanoo http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal/comment-page-7#comment-44588 oodoodanoo Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:23:58 +0000 #comment-44588 I have to disagree (respectfully) with Mr. Frum and some of the posters here. Bill Clinton thought that he could avoid defeat by tacking to the center while ignoring his base. Well, it may have barely worked for him, but his party was drubbed in 1994. In other words, Americans weren't fooled. When they wanted Republicans, they voted for them, and when they want Democrats, they'll vote for them instead. The point is not to play to the here and now by playing catch-up with the Democrats. We need to look ahead to 2010 and 2012. When Americans see that this president is planning a radical attack on their values, they will wake up and get their priorities straight. Until then, playing ball with Obama will just serve to alienate those future faithful. They will not forget if the GOP turns to accommodation now. I have to disagree (respectfully) with Mr. Frum and some of the posters here. Bill Clinton thought that he could avoid defeat by tacking to the center while ignoring his base. Well, it may have barely worked for him, but his party was drubbed in 1994. In other words, Americans weren’t fooled. When they wanted Republicans, they voted for them, and when they want Democrats, they’ll vote for them instead.

The point is not to play to the here and now by playing catch-up with the Democrats. We need to look ahead to 2010 and 2012. When Americans see that this president is planning a radical attack on their values, they will wake up and get their priorities straight.

Until then, playing ball with Obama will just serve to alienate those future faithful. They will not forget if the GOP turns to accommodation now.

]]> By: Chekote http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal/comment-page-7#comment-45343 Chekote Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:06:44 +0000 #comment-45343 Dragonlady, of course, there is room for traditionalists in the New Majority. Traditionalism is an essential part of the conservative movement. Among other things, conservatism is about prudent change. Russell Kirk said it best: "Change is essential to the body social, the conservative reasons, just as it is essential to the human body. A body that has ceased to renew itself has begun to die. But if that body is to be vigorous, the change must occur in a regular manner, harmonizing with the form and nature of that body; otherwise change produces a monstrous growth, a cancer, which devours its host. The conservative takes care that nothing in a society should ever be wholly old, and that nothing should ever be wholly new. This is the means of the conservation of a nation, quite as it is the means of conservation of a living organism. Just how much change a society requires, and what sort of change, depend upon the circumstances of an age and a nation." Here is a link I think you will enjoy: http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html Dragonlady, of course, there is room for traditionalists in the New Majority. Traditionalism is an essential part of the conservative movement. Among other things, conservatism is about prudent change. Russell Kirk said it best: “Change is essential to the body social, the conservative reasons, just as it is essential to the human body. A body that has ceased to renew itself has begun to die. But if that body is to be vigorous, the change must occur in a regular manner, harmonizing with the form and nature of that body; otherwise change produces a monstrous growth, a cancer, which devours its host. The conservative takes care that nothing in a society should ever be wholly old, and that nothing should ever be wholly new. This is the means of the conservation of a nation, quite as it is the means of conservation of a living organism. Just how much change a society requires, and what sort of change, depend upon the circumstances of an age and a nation.” Here is a link I think you will enjoy:
http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html

]]> By: HollywoodBill http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal/comment-page-7#comment-41718 HollywoodBill Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:08:00 +0000 #comment-41718 dragonlady--do not expect the Western libertarian based states to suppor a totally unacceptable candidate, like Sarah Palin or a Bobby Jindal. We have had enough of the socons in power with GWBush. But the socons are turning the big tent into a revival tent which is incapable of carrying any regions but the South and that's not enough to win national elections. dragonlady–do not expect the Western libertarian based states to suppor a totally unacceptable candidate, like Sarah Palin or a Bobby Jindal. We have had enough of the socons in power with GWBush. But the socons are turning the big tent into a revival tent which is incapable of carrying any regions but the South and that’s not enough to win national elections.

]]> By: dragonlady http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal/comment-page-7#comment-51162 dragonlady Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:54:11 +0000 #comment-51162 Hbill, I don't want CA's economy or culture exported to the rest of the 50 states. The western states can elect the more socially moderate candidates and we can all be included as part of the Big Tent philosophy. The GOP shouldn't expect the whole country to follow the south's lead but it shouldn't ignore it either. Hbill, I don’t want CA’s economy or culture exported to the rest of the 50 states. The western states can elect the more socially moderate candidates and we can all be included as part of the Big Tent philosophy. The GOP shouldn’t expect the whole country to follow the south’s lead but it shouldn’t ignore it either.

]]> By: dragonlady http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal/comment-page-7#comment-53770 dragonlady Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:48:13 +0000 #comment-53770 So Chekote, HBill et all, is there room in the NewMajority for traditionalists? I would never try to impose any religious belief on anybody. At the same time, I'm tired of not being able to say Merry Christmas or having war memorials removed because a cross may be on it. So Chekote, HBill et all, is there room in the NewMajority for traditionalists? I would never try to impose any religious belief on anybody. At the same time, I’m tired of not being able to say Merry Christmas or having war memorials removed because a cross may be on it.

]]> By: Chekote http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal/comment-page-6#comment-47820 Chekote Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:39:01 +0000 #comment-47820 HBill. I don't believe that dragonlady is a SoCon. She is a traditionalist. Very different as I pointed out in my post below. HBill. I don’t believe that dragonlady is a SoCon. She is a traditionalist. Very different as I pointed out in my post below.

]]> By: HollywoodBill http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal/comment-page-6#comment-47509 HollywoodBill Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:26:15 +0000 #comment-47509 Sinz, one of the more surpising facts about Hispanic voters is how they do not vote in proportion to their numbers. The Southwestern states have always been more libertarian than social conservative and the dominance of the socons is what is fraying the GOP. And like it or not dragonlady, the voters are having the final word on the direction of the GOP. The social conservative candidates are failing in most regions of the country with the exception of the South and the bible belt. The goal of the GOP is to win elections and not promote a theocratic agenda which is as bad as the liberal agenda. Sinz, one of the more surpising facts about Hispanic voters is how they do not vote in proportion to their numbers. The Southwestern states have always been more libertarian than social conservative and the dominance of the socons is what is fraying the GOP. And like it or not dragonlady, the voters are having the final word on the direction of the GOP. The social conservative candidates are failing in most regions of the country with the exception of the South and the bible belt. The goal of the GOP is to win elections and not promote a theocratic agenda which is as bad as the liberal agenda.

]]> By: Chekote http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal/comment-page-6#comment-40795 Chekote Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:13:13 +0000 #comment-40795 Dragonlady. May I respectfully suggest you are not a social conservative; but rather a traditionalist. So am I for the most part. You basically want to preserve our cultural institutions, our way of life. SoCons have an activist agenda designed to impose a certain set of religious beliefs on society. Very different. Dragonlady. May I respectfully suggest you are not a social conservative; but rather a traditionalist. So am I for the most part. You basically want to preserve our cultural institutions, our way of life. SoCons have an activist agenda designed to impose a certain set of religious beliefs on society. Very different.

]]> By: ireign http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal/comment-page-6#comment-43303 ireign Fri, 13 Feb 2009 02:14:05 +0000 #comment-43303 Sinz, thanks for the clarification on your views. Sinz, thanks for the clarification on your views.

]]> By: dragonlady http://www.frumforum.com/lets-make-a-deal/comment-page-6#comment-54347 dragonlady Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:38:22 +0000 #comment-54347 sinz54, I recognize the influence and perception problem of right wing extremists but I don't think the majority of GOPers feel that way. The MSM has succeeded in painting anyone who has a conservative view of social issues as a religious wacko. When was the last time you saw a real effort on the GOP's part to pass a constitutional amendment against g-a-y marriage or HLA? I don't support either of those positions but I consider myself socially conservative. On the other hand, Obama has specifically stated he supports FOCA which the vast majority of Americans do not support. Yet posters are sitting here in a circular firing squad trying to run each other out of the party be it an economic, foreign policy, or social ideology limitus test. It's disheartening; how does it build a NewMajority? I pretty much know from visiting this website where you, Hollywood Bill, Chekote, JJ, larryo, and a few others stand. So I suppose we'll agree to disagree but I really wonder how productive this back and forth is. As a social conservative, I'm being told my views are extreme and therefore, irrelevant when I believe my views are in line with the majority of Americans. Because I simply have an opinion on these issues I'm de facto trying to force my view down someone's throat when the joke is so many posters want to have it both ways. Have you noticed when this website first launched we had many more social conservative posters? Where have they all gone do you suppose? If this is what the NewMajority is to become, the Libertarian party, then I must say good-bye. I support individual rights but I do not support the extreme atomization of individuals in a society that is no more than the sum of its parts, where moral relativism and balkanization runs amok. sinz54, I recognize the influence and perception problem of right wing extremists but I don’t think the majority of GOPers feel that way. The MSM has succeeded in painting anyone who has a conservative view of social issues as a religious wacko. When was the last time you saw a real effort on the GOP’s part to pass a constitutional amendment against g-a-y marriage or HLA? I don’t support either of those positions but I consider myself socially conservative. On the other hand, Obama has specifically stated he supports FOCA which the vast majority of Americans do not support. Yet posters are sitting here in a circular firing squad trying to run each other out of the party be it an economic, foreign policy, or social ideology limitus test. It’s disheartening; how does it build a NewMajority? I pretty much know from visiting this website where you, Hollywood Bill, Chekote, JJ, larryo, and a few others stand. So I suppose we’ll agree to disagree but I really wonder how productive this back and forth is. As a social conservative, I’m being told my views are extreme and therefore, irrelevant when I believe my views are in line with the majority of Americans. Because I simply have an opinion on these issues I’m de facto trying to force my view down someone’s throat when the joke is so many posters want to have it both ways. Have you noticed when this website first launched we had many more social conservative posters? Where have they all gone do you suppose? If this is what the NewMajority is to become, the Libertarian party, then I must say good-bye. I support individual rights but I do not support the extreme atomization of individuals in a society that is no more than the sum of its parts, where moral relativism and balkanization runs amok.

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