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	<title>Comments on: Hot Air on Healthcare IDs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids</link>
	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: SFTor1</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/comment-page-2#comment-66652</link>
		<dc:creator>SFTor1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 17:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13077#comment-66652</guid>
		<description>escape says: &quot;We can treat them like Mexico treats human beings that break their immigration and employment laws.&quot;

If you would like to join escape on his race to the bottom it&#039;s a good idea to jump on now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>escape says: &#8220;We can treat them like Mexico treats human beings that break their immigration and employment laws.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you would like to join escape on his race to the bottom it&#8217;s a good idea to jump on now.</p>
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		<title>By: midcon</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/comment-page-2#comment-66563</link>
		<dc:creator>midcon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13077#comment-66563</guid>
		<description>sinz;  I like that thought - the right to privacy but limits on anonymity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sinz;  I like that thought &#8211; the right to privacy but limits on anonymity.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/comment-page-2#comment-66486</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 14:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13077#comment-66486</guid>
		<description>midcon:  &lt;blockquote&gt; A national ID is would be so useful and beneficial for mitigating the effects of illegal immigration; voter registration; medical care; lost or abducted children; and a host of other services that it should be intuitively obvious that we should have it. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Even the civil libertarian, Alan Dershowitz, decided to favor a national ID card (with strict privacy protections) in the wake of the 9-11 terrorist attack.  

At the time, he said that all persons have a right to &lt;i&gt;privacy&lt;/i&gt;.  But no person has a right to be &lt;i&gt;anonymous&lt;/i&gt;.  Allowing masses of people to tool around the nation in total anonymity is something we can no longer afford in an age of terrorism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>midcon:   A national ID is would be so useful and beneficial for mitigating the effects of illegal immigration; voter registration; medical care; lost or abducted children; and a host of other services that it should be intuitively obvious that we should have it.<br />
Even the civil libertarian, Alan Dershowitz, decided to favor a national ID card (with strict privacy protections) in the wake of the 9-11 terrorist attack.  </p>
<p>At the time, he said that all persons have a right to privacy.  But no person has a right to be anonymous.  Allowing masses of people to tool around the nation in total anonymity is something we can no longer afford in an age of terrorism.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/comment-page-2#comment-66485</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 14:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13077#comment-66485</guid>
		<description>Chekote:

I have returned.  

As you know, I have some nontrivial health problems, so I was not available for much of yesterday.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chekote:</p>
<p>I have returned.  </p>
<p>As you know, I have some nontrivial health problems, so I was not available for much of yesterday.</p>
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		<title>By: midcon</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/comment-page-2#comment-66480</link>
		<dc:creator>midcon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13077#comment-66480</guid>
		<description>I have held a security clearance since before I was old enough to legally drink.   That means the government has had my fingerprints; knows who my relatives and friends are; knows who I have had a a personal relationship with; has knowledge of my fianances; and knows whether I have had any legal issues, including speeding tickets (yeah, I&#039;ve had a few).

They are not parked outside my house and I am not under surveillance (well as far as I know).   The very last thing in the world I fear is a national id used to obtain essential services that are partially or wholly provided by the taxpayer.

If you are self sufficient and never need to avail yourself of government services that are paid for by the taxpayer then you should not need identification.   BUT if you take a stinking dime of my tax money, I want some valid form of identification that verifies you have a right to those services.  If you go to the ER and pay cash - God bless you.  But if you go there and expect the taxpayer to foot some of the bill - show me who you are.   Ditto on voting in my elections; driving on my roads; crossing my borders; and collecting Social Security and Medicare - which I, the taxpayer, have so kindly provided you.

If you in your paranoia believe that the government is coming to get you (no matter how silly that sounds),  you should be informed that they usually have better things to do.   Even so, if you are filled with that overriding fear, then stay off the radar and stay out of my wallet.

A national ID is would be so useful and beneficial for mitigating the effects of illegal immigration; voter registration; medical care; lost or abducted children; and a host of other services that it should be intuitively obvious that we should have it.   Just as every child born in this country must have a social security number so should we all have a national id.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have held a security clearance since before I was old enough to legally drink.   That means the government has had my fingerprints; knows who my relatives and friends are; knows who I have had a a personal relationship with; has knowledge of my fianances; and knows whether I have had any legal issues, including speeding tickets (yeah, I&#8217;ve had a few).</p>
<p>They are not parked outside my house and I am not under surveillance (well as far as I know).   The very last thing in the world I fear is a national id used to obtain essential services that are partially or wholly provided by the taxpayer.</p>
<p>If you are self sufficient and never need to avail yourself of government services that are paid for by the taxpayer then you should not need identification.   BUT if you take a stinking dime of my tax money, I want some valid form of identification that verifies you have a right to those services.  If you go to the ER and pay cash &#8211; God bless you.  But if you go there and expect the taxpayer to foot some of the bill &#8211; show me who you are.   Ditto on voting in my elections; driving on my roads; crossing my borders; and collecting Social Security and Medicare &#8211; which I, the taxpayer, have so kindly provided you.</p>
<p>If you in your paranoia believe that the government is coming to get you (no matter how silly that sounds),  you should be informed that they usually have better things to do.   Even so, if you are filled with that overriding fear, then stay off the radar and stay out of my wallet.</p>
<p>A national ID is would be so useful and beneficial for mitigating the effects of illegal immigration; voter registration; medical care; lost or abducted children; and a host of other services that it should be intuitively obvious that we should have it.   Just as every child born in this country must have a social security number so should we all have a national id.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin B</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/comment-page-2#comment-66479</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13077#comment-66479</guid>
		<description>&quot;Um, like a Green Card, Visa, Passport?

Hello!&quot;

Well, I have a passport, but no Visa or Green Card, since I was born and raised in the USA.   My brothers don&#039;t have passports at all, nor do their children.   How are we to prove we are not illegal aliens? 

If an ID check doesn&#039;t require all people to be checked--if it is checked only for those who look or sound &quot;foreign&quot;--then it will quickly be struck down in the courts.

Many places that sell alcohol or cigarettes will check ID on anyone who tries to purchase those items, even if the customer looks 90 years old.

The answer seems simple to me:  If the public option insurance card is also a photo ID, then the providers will need to check it so they know where to file the insurance.   If you don&#039;t have an insurance card, the provider will not be able to bill insurance.  Enforcement is based on the provider wanting to get paid.

If you have private insurance, then the provider doesn&#039;t need to see ID (but may ask anyway).  Presumably, you&#039;re paying for that insurance, so you&#039;re not a drain on the taxpayers.

If you&#039;re paying cash, then the provider doesn&#039;t need to see ID (and you are not a drain on the taxpayers anyway).

In emergencies, the care may come first, and the ID check later.

Note that the providers are not checking citizenship or legal residency.   They are checking whether they will get paid.  Turning doctors into INS agents strikes me as totalitarian.

The place to check for legal status is in the process of applying for the public option, and especially when applying for government subsidies when you can&#039;t afford the premium.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Um, like a Green Card, Visa, Passport?</p>
<p>Hello!&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, I have a passport, but no Visa or Green Card, since I was born and raised in the USA.   My brothers don&#8217;t have passports at all, nor do their children.   How are we to prove we are not illegal aliens? </p>
<p>If an ID check doesn&#8217;t require all people to be checked&#8211;if it is checked only for those who look or sound &#8220;foreign&#8221;&#8211;then it will quickly be struck down in the courts.</p>
<p>Many places that sell alcohol or cigarettes will check ID on anyone who tries to purchase those items, even if the customer looks 90 years old.</p>
<p>The answer seems simple to me:  If the public option insurance card is also a photo ID, then the providers will need to check it so they know where to file the insurance.   If you don&#8217;t have an insurance card, the provider will not be able to bill insurance.  Enforcement is based on the provider wanting to get paid.</p>
<p>If you have private insurance, then the provider doesn&#8217;t need to see ID (but may ask anyway).  Presumably, you&#8217;re paying for that insurance, so you&#8217;re not a drain on the taxpayers.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re paying cash, then the provider doesn&#8217;t need to see ID (and you are not a drain on the taxpayers anyway).</p>
<p>In emergencies, the care may come first, and the ID check later.</p>
<p>Note that the providers are not checking citizenship or legal residency.   They are checking whether they will get paid.  Turning doctors into INS agents strikes me as totalitarian.</p>
<p>The place to check for legal status is in the process of applying for the public option, and especially when applying for government subsidies when you can&#8217;t afford the premium.</p>
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		<title>By: EscapeVelocity</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/comment-page-2#comment-66472</link>
		<dc:creator>EscapeVelocity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 05:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13077#comment-66472</guid>
		<description>The Next Right has already conceded the battle.....Frum is fading fast.

http://thenextright.com/jon-henke/new-battlefield-old-guard

As I said, its not an either or proposition.   There is room for both, and we need them both.  The Left was very successful in pushing their agenda with loons dressed up like cows beating plastic buckets and throwing molotov cocktails at the WTO and G8/G20 meetings for decades.  

You can always disavow them, while still enjoying the service they provide in attacking the other side viciously and unrelentingly.   And we can do it with a bit more aplomb and dedication to the truth than the Left as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Next Right has already conceded the battle&#8230;..Frum is fading fast.</p>
<p><a href="http://thenextright.com/jon-henke/new-battlefield-old-guard" rel="nofollow">http://thenextright.com/jon-henke/new-battlefield-old-guard</a></p>
<p>As I said, its not an either or proposition.   There is room for both, and we need them both.  The Left was very successful in pushing their agenda with loons dressed up like cows beating plastic buckets and throwing molotov cocktails at the WTO and G8/G20 meetings for decades.  </p>
<p>You can always disavow them, while still enjoying the service they provide in attacking the other side viciously and unrelentingly.   And we can do it with a bit more aplomb and dedication to the truth than the Left as well.</p>
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		<title>By: EscapeVelocity</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/comment-page-2#comment-66471</link>
		<dc:creator>EscapeVelocity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 03:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13077#comment-66471</guid>
		<description>Meanwhile, I’ll see your remittances, and bump you 6-7 billion a year in illegals --- balconesfault

LOL!

BTW, Im not that hostile to Mexican workers.  But I do have nuanced positions, including reciprical easing of American immigration and property ownership laws in Mexico. 

If I can figure this stuff out, then there is no excuse for the dingleberry&#039;s up in Congress not to be able to understand good policy prescriptions, law changes, enforcement and negotiation with Mexico.

Good Lord!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meanwhile, I’ll see your remittances, and bump you 6-7 billion a year in illegals &#8212; balconesfault</p>
<p>LOL!</p>
<p>BTW, Im not that hostile to Mexican workers.  But I do have nuanced positions, including reciprical easing of American immigration and property ownership laws in Mexico. </p>
<p>If I can figure this stuff out, then there is no excuse for the dingleberry&#8217;s up in Congress not to be able to understand good policy prescriptions, law changes, enforcement and negotiation with Mexico.</p>
<p>Good Lord!</p>
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		<title>By: balconesfault</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/comment-page-2#comment-66470</link>
		<dc:creator>balconesfault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 02:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13077#comment-66470</guid>
		<description>Escape - not all of those remittances are from illegals.  In fact, documented workers generally make significantly better wages than undocumented, and thus can be expected to send more money back to their families.

Meanwhile, I&#039;ll see your remittances, and bump you 6-7 billion a year in illegals contributions to the Social Security trust fund.

http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/apr2006/pi20060407_072803.htm

&lt;i&gt;Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an &quot;earnings suspense file&quot; -- an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never claim their benefits.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Escape &#8211; not all of those remittances are from illegals.  In fact, documented workers generally make significantly better wages than undocumented, and thus can be expected to send more money back to their families.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, I&#8217;ll see your remittances, and bump you 6-7 billion a year in illegals contributions to the Social Security trust fund.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/apr2006/pi20060407_072803.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/apr2006/pi20060407_072803.htm</a></p>
<p>Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an &#8220;earnings suspense file&#8221; &#8212; an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never claim their benefits.</p>
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		<title>By: EscapeVelocity</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/hot-air-on-healthcare-ids/comment-page-2#comment-66468</link>
		<dc:creator>EscapeVelocity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 02:01:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.newmajority.com/?p=13077#comment-66468</guid>
		<description>True.  

In fact the SS# is abused as an ID.  Which was predicted a long long time ago.  

Ive have video rental clerks request my SS#, to which I reply are you donating to my account?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True.  </p>
<p>In fact the SS# is abused as an ID.  Which was predicted a long long time ago.  </p>
<p>Ive have video rental clerks request my SS#, to which I reply are you donating to my account?</p>
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