Comments on: Green Yes, Cap-and-trade No http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 20 Mar 2010 13:58:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Stewardship http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no/comment-page-1#comment-45359 Stewardship Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:00:01 +0000 #comment-45359 sinz54- I fully agree with you. When one considers the other side of the coin...the vast number of new jobs and wealth accumulation to be created by forward-thinking energy policies and investment in those industries...it's a wonder the entire stimulus package didn't target this opportunity. sinz54- I fully agree with you. When one considers the other side of the coin…the vast number of new jobs and wealth accumulation to be created by forward-thinking energy policies and investment in those industries…it’s a wonder the entire stimulus package didn’t target this opportunity.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no/comment-page-1#comment-45695 sinz54 Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:57:40 +0000 #comment-45695 Stewardship: I believe that approaching global warming solely from a "prevention" point of view will be devastating to our economy, more than other nations. Other nations, like France and Japan, get much of their electricity from nuclear power; we only get a fraction. Other nations, being smaller, have efficient rail systems. Our vast nation, in which suburbia is the dominant life style, has made the automobile the absolute dominant transportation mode. We must invest heavily in alternative sources of energy, and in flex-fuel and hybrid automobiles. I remember the energy shortages of the 1970s. There were actual riots, as truckers actually rioted on the nation's highways. A prevention-only approach to global warming will hurt us even more. It might keep us in a permanent depression, until we figure out how to power and transport suburbanites around. Stewardship: I believe that approaching global warming solely from a “prevention” point of view will be devastating to our economy, more than other nations. Other nations, like France and Japan, get much of their electricity from nuclear power; we only get a fraction. Other nations, being smaller, have efficient rail systems. Our vast nation, in which suburbia is the dominant life style, has made the automobile the absolute dominant transportation mode. We must invest heavily in alternative sources of energy, and in flex-fuel and hybrid automobiles. I remember the energy shortages of the 1970s. There were actual riots, as truckers actually rioted on the nation’s highways. A prevention-only approach to global warming will hurt us even more. It might keep us in a permanent depression, until we figure out how to power and transport suburbanites around.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no/comment-page-1#comment-44877 sinz54 Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:52:58 +0000 #comment-44877 annecognito: It's not just companies, it's consumers. Every owner of a huge, pollutiing SUV has made his decision: He cares more about the functions the SUV can provide him, than how much smog it emits or how much greenhouse gas it emits. I still believe that a carbon tax is the simplest way to fix that. By printing the dollar amount of the carbon tax on the car's sticker, and printing it on every gasoline pump in every gas station, every would-be buyer will know exactly how much he has to pay for the right to spew carbon dioxide into the air. annecognito: It’s not just companies, it’s consumers. Every owner of a huge, pollutiing SUV has made his decision: He cares more about the functions the SUV can provide him, than how much smog it emits or how much greenhouse gas it emits. I still believe that a carbon tax is the simplest way to fix that. By printing the dollar amount of the carbon tax on the car’s sticker, and printing it on every gasoline pump in every gas station, every would-be buyer will know exactly how much he has to pay for the right to spew carbon dioxide into the air.

]]> By: Advocate123 http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no/comment-page-1#comment-43820 Advocate123 Tue, 10 Mar 2009 02:48:14 +0000 #comment-43820 Look, this is totally schizophrenic. I have yet to see any real opposition to the Green movement, which is the only means by which to combat the Cap and Trade. Look, this is totally schizophrenic. I have yet to see any real opposition to the Green movement, which is the only means by which to combat the Cap and Trade.

]]> By: annecognito http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no/comment-page-1#comment-50458 annecognito Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:46:21 +0000 #comment-50458 The problem with letting the market price emissions is that up to now, that's exactly what we've done, and the market says "if I don't have to pay for it, why should I?" Companies aren't going to let some pesky thing like preserving the earth for future generations get in the way of their bottom line. How about the government hires some specialists, like environmental engineers and financial analysts, who can tell us exactly what is the cost of the carbon we emit in real terms and then use that information to set policy? I would imagine that's what's being done right now, but what do I know. The problem with letting the market price emissions is that up to now, that’s exactly what we’ve done, and the market says “if I don’t have to pay for it, why should I?” Companies aren’t going to let some pesky thing like preserving the earth for future generations get in the way of their bottom line.

How about the government hires some specialists, like environmental engineers and financial analysts, who can tell us exactly what is the cost of the carbon we emit in real terms and then use that information to set policy? I would imagine that’s what’s being done right now, but what do I know.

]]> By: farmerjohn http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no/comment-page-1#comment-45468 farmerjohn Mon, 09 Mar 2009 19:16:01 +0000 #comment-45468 More free market fantasy. The pricing mechanism of markets doesn't exist in a vacuum and consumers do not have much power in the market when it comes to purchasing many/most essential goods and services. Your description of how the pricing mechanism functions is exactly what it's claimed to be: an explanation for 9 year-olds. More free market fantasy. The pricing mechanism of markets doesn’t exist in a vacuum and consumers do not have much power in the market when it comes to purchasing many/most essential goods and services. Your description of how the pricing mechanism functions is exactly what it’s claimed to be: an explanation for 9 year-olds.

]]> By: dendup http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no/comment-page-1#comment-50754 dendup Mon, 09 Mar 2009 17:47:03 +0000 #comment-50754 Globla warming is probably the biggest example of the "Tragedy of the Commons". Here's a link to the original essay. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/162/3859/1243 If you're not familiar with it the Widipedia article is as good a place as any as a start in understanding its implications and literature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons Globla warming is probably the biggest example of the “Tragedy of the Commons”. Here’s a link to the original essay. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/162/3859/1243 If you’re not familiar with it the Widipedia article is as good a place as any as a start in understanding its implications and literature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

]]> By: Stewardship http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no/comment-page-1#comment-45398 Stewardship Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:26:23 +0000 #comment-45398 We have a pretty good idea of the cost of relocating people. Here is a quote from a website pertaining to moving Kivalina, small coastal Alaska village, that is already in grave danger: Global warming and its effects are a reality we have to deal with. Peoples lives are in danger because of it. Swan noted that official reports from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the Government Accountability Office have found that Kivalina is directly harmed by global warming and must relocate at an expense that could cost $400 million or more. $400 million for a very smal village. Can't wait to open the bill to move Miami! As a conservative, I'd rather take action now to stop, slow, or reverse the effects of climate change today, than risk unlimited and rising costs in the future. We have a pretty good idea of the cost of relocating people. Here is a quote from a website pertaining to moving Kivalina, small coastal Alaska village, that is already in grave danger:
Global warming and its effects are a reality we have to deal with. Peoples lives are in danger because of it. Swan noted that official reports from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the Government Accountability Office have found that Kivalina is directly harmed by global warming and must relocate at an expense that could cost $400 million or more.

$400 million for a very smal village. Can’t wait to open the bill to move Miami! As a conservative, I’d rather take action now to stop, slow, or reverse the effects of climate change today, than risk unlimited and rising costs in the future.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no/comment-page-1#comment-41730 sinz54 Mon, 09 Mar 2009 14:58:33 +0000 #comment-41730 esurience: The simplest way is Milton Friedman's solution: An effluent tax. We can calculate how much it would cost if our coastlines were inundated by rising sea levels. (How much of our GDP would we lose if Florida were submerged?) Ditto for all the world's nations. (How much would it cost to relocate the 200 million people in Bangladesh, if their nation were submerged? What if they demanded to come to America?) Then just raise enough money through a carbon tax to cover that. The reason why politicians don't like effluent taxes, is they're trying to cover up the true cost of compliance by hiding it inside the rising costs of goods and services due to these cap-and-trade trading permits. Whereas with a carbon tax, it could even be printed on the price tax of your next gas-guzzling car, alongside the luxury tax. esurience: The simplest way is Milton Friedman’s solution: An effluent tax. We can calculate how much it would cost if our coastlines were inundated by rising sea levels. (How much of our GDP would we lose if Florida were submerged?) Ditto for all the world’s nations. (How much would it cost to relocate the 200 million people in Bangladesh, if their nation were submerged? What if they demanded to come to America?) Then just raise enough money through a carbon tax to cover that. The reason why politicians don’t like effluent taxes, is they’re trying to cover up the true cost of compliance by hiding it inside the rising costs of goods and services due to these cap-and-trade trading permits. Whereas with a carbon tax, it could even be printed on the price tax of your next gas-guzzling car, alongside the luxury tax.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/green-yes-cap-and-trade-no/comment-page-1#comment-53587 sinz54 Mon, 09 Mar 2009 14:54:37 +0000 #comment-53587 The only way the market could price emissions, was if we could put a price on the earth's atmosphere. How do you propose we do that? The only way the market could price emissions, was if we could put a price on the earth’s atmosphere. How do you propose we do that?

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