Comments on: German Social Democrats Mulling Grand Deal with Former Communists http://www.frumforum.com/german-social-democrats-mulling-grand-deal-with-former-communists Building a conservatism that can win again Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:05:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: k1981 http://www.frumforum.com/german-social-democrats-mulling-grand-deal-with-former-communists/comment-page-1#comment-60761 k1981 Tue, 18 Aug 2009 23:54:58 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9952#comment-60761 Not accused anyone of anything, i was just wondering what the alternatives should look like. if you feel offended, i apologize. I don't see europe dying: I don't see a problem in a low birthrate, the problem is that there is no economic compensation for it, neither is the dependence on the state a sign of decline. Furthermore I don't see why a growing muslim (not islamic!) population as a problem per se, it is rather a problem of integrating them and of offering them an idea, similar to the one the USA is offering her immigrants. I definitely agree with you that there is a decline in religion, but on the other hand there is no correspondence to a decline in morals. The decline in morals has something to do with the rejection of morality as a central concept of society by the generation of 1968. There is morality that comes from religion, sure, but not solely. That the welfare state is unsustainable I would agree partly. There were some crucial changes in the German welfare system, and there will be more. And finally, and redundantly, you mention the excessive state spending. Although I would agree that I think it is too much, this is no sign whatsoever of a decline or a negative phenomena. It is only if you define a state by the opposite, but then your making a petitio principii, stating what is right in your premises: small state is good, europe has big government, hence europe is bad. Funny thing is: - USA has with aorund 11 trillion$$ the biggest deficit in the world. - USA is heavily indebted to the Chinese Commis - With 9,4 % a higher unemployment rate than Europe ( EU27: 8,9) - the USA has an unsolved problem of ca. 15 million illegal Immigrants - there is a bifurcation in the USA, morally and politically that seems almost irreconcilable. That's why I like this page here, David Frum is a conservative that reaches across the aisle, not stubbornly pointing fingers at the other side, calling them names and just being stupid theoretically wise. It is not about brand 'conservative', 'left', etc. it is about what is good for people, for the individual that should be the only criteria. Not accused anyone of anything, i was just wondering what the alternatives should look like. if you feel offended, i apologize. I don’t see europe dying: I don’t see a problem in a low birthrate, the problem is that there is no economic compensation for it, neither is the dependence on the state a sign of decline. Furthermore I don’t see why a growing muslim (not islamic!) population as a problem per se, it is rather a problem of integrating them and of offering them an idea, similar to the one the USA is offering her immigrants.
I definitely agree with you that there is a decline in religion, but on the other hand there is no correspondence to a decline in morals. The decline in morals has something to do with the rejection of morality as a central concept of society by the generation of 1968. There is morality that comes from religion, sure, but not solely. That the welfare state is unsustainable I would agree partly. There were some crucial changes in the German welfare system, and there will be more. And finally, and redundantly, you mention the excessive state spending. Although I would agree that I think it is too much, this is no sign whatsoever of a decline or a negative phenomena. It is only if you define a state by the opposite, but then your making a petitio principii, stating what is right in your premises: small state is good, europe has big government, hence europe is bad.

Funny thing is:
- USA has with aorund 11 trillion$$ the biggest deficit in the world.
- USA is heavily indebted to the Chinese Commis
- With 9,4 % a higher unemployment rate than Europe ( EU27: 8,9)
- the USA has an unsolved problem of ca. 15 million illegal Immigrants
- there is a bifurcation in the USA, morally and politically that seems almost irreconcilable.

That’s why I like this page here, David Frum is a conservative that reaches across the aisle, not stubbornly pointing fingers at the other side, calling them names and just being stupid theoretically wise. It is not about brand ‘conservative’, ‘left’, etc. it is about what is good for people, for the individual that should be the only criteria.

]]> By: DFL http://www.frumforum.com/german-social-democrats-mulling-grand-deal-with-former-communists/comment-page-1#comment-60633 DFL Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:56:31 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9952#comment-60633 Since 1945 the following negative phenomena have occured in Europe: 1) a birth rate that has dropped to 1.5 or so children per female: 2) a huge rise in the Islamic population: 3) a growing dependence on the state and the rise of the therapeutic state; 4) a decline in religion and a corresponding decline in morals; 5) the rise of an unsustainable welfare state; 6) state spending that approaches fifty percent, and often more, in most European countries. Writers as different as Mark Steyn, Pat Buchanan and Christopher Caldwell have concluded that Europe is dying. Throwing around terms like fascist at anyone who does not accept the European welfare state reflects badly is the sign of childishness and churlishness. Since 1945 the following negative phenomena have occured in Europe: 1) a birth rate that has dropped to 1.5 or so children per female: 2) a huge rise in the Islamic population: 3) a growing dependence on the state and the rise of the therapeutic state; 4) a decline in religion and a corresponding decline in morals; 5) the rise of an unsustainable welfare state; 6) state spending that approaches fifty percent, and often more, in most European countries. Writers as different as Mark Steyn, Pat Buchanan and Christopher Caldwell have concluded that Europe is dying.

Throwing around terms like fascist at anyone who does not accept the European welfare state reflects badly is the sign of childishness and churlishness.

]]> By: k1981 http://www.frumforum.com/german-social-democrats-mulling-grand-deal-with-former-communists/comment-page-1#comment-60605 k1981 Mon, 17 Aug 2009 23:31:34 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9952#comment-60605 It is not that easy. Looking at Great Britain's New Labour and the changes, the in the case of foreign policy worse Chancellor since Bismarck, Gerhard Schröder has undertaken to reform the German social system are proof of a different story. Unfortunately, both have made subsequent errors (the SPD in not defending aggressively their welfare reforms and the Labour Party (like G.W. Bush) in not being able to communicate the necessary overthrow of Hussein successfully) that will result in a massive decline of social democracy in those countries. Europe in decline since 1945? Come on, only someone wishing for the good old (fascist?) days could say something like this. Never before has there been wealth like this, never before more freedom, never before such a long period of peace. Social democracy was one of the factors that helped integrating Europe, especially Germany, into the 'West'. Fortunately the LINKE will not win in the national elections; they had been expected to gain from the current crisis, but polls show that they even lost. It is not that easy. Looking at Great Britain’s New Labour and the changes, the in the case of foreign policy worse Chancellor since Bismarck, Gerhard Schröder has undertaken to reform the German social system are proof of a different story. Unfortunately, both have made subsequent errors (the SPD in not defending aggressively their welfare reforms and the Labour Party (like G.W. Bush) in not being able to communicate the necessary overthrow of Hussein successfully) that will result in a massive decline of social democracy in those countries. Europe in decline since 1945? Come on, only someone wishing for the good old (fascist?) days could say something like this. Never before has there been wealth like this, never before more freedom, never before such a long period of peace. Social democracy was one of the factors that helped integrating Europe, especially Germany, into the ‘West’. Fortunately the LINKE will not win in the national elections; they had been expected to gain from the current crisis, but polls show that they even lost.

]]> By: DFL http://www.frumforum.com/german-social-democrats-mulling-grand-deal-with-former-communists/comment-page-1#comment-60483 DFL Mon, 17 Aug 2009 12:59:38 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9952#comment-60483 I would like to see the Left win in Germany so as to better wreck the current political zeitgeist in the West. The social democracy that has prevailed in Europe since 1945 is what has driven Europe to decline. I would like to see the Left win in Germany so as to better wreck the current political zeitgeist in the West. The social democracy that has prevailed in Europe since 1945 is what has driven Europe to decline.

]]> By: k1981 http://www.frumforum.com/german-social-democrats-mulling-grand-deal-with-former-communists/comment-page-1#comment-60140 k1981 Sat, 15 Aug 2009 13:42:00 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=9952#comment-60140 Dear John, I am sorry to say but as a German who used to favor the Socialdemocrats and is now leaning towards the Christiandemocrats, I still feel like defending my old comrades. On a federal level there is no sign whatsoever of the SPD making a coalition with the Linke, at leats not after this election. The SPD has pointed out that they have several disputes with the LINKE over core policy issues, that couldn't bring them together in this election. Although keeping promises that were made before the election is not one of the strengths of German parties, I see no point of raising fear of a Commi-SPD coalition right now. On the other hand I would agree with you that the SPD should get rid of the elements that still tend to such a coalition. The only way of saving Social Democracy in Germany, and in the spirit of Sidney Hook I am still a social democrat, there should be a clear pro-growth, pro-west and pro-freedom program. I don't see any real commonalities between these two factions. The LINKE is stubbornly anti-west, anti-freedom and heavily populist. Dear John,

I am sorry to say but as a German who used to favor the Socialdemocrats and is now leaning towards the Christiandemocrats, I still feel like defending my old comrades. On a federal level there is no sign whatsoever of the SPD making a coalition with the Linke, at leats not after this election. The SPD has pointed out that they have several disputes with the LINKE over core policy issues, that couldn’t bring them together in this election. Although keeping promises that were made before the election is not one of the strengths of German parties, I see no point of raising fear of a Commi-SPD coalition right now.
On the other hand I would agree with you that the SPD should get rid of the elements that still tend to such a coalition. The only way of saving Social Democracy in Germany, and in the spirit of Sidney Hook I am still a social democrat, there should be a clear pro-growth, pro-west and pro-freedom program. I don’t see any real commonalities between these two factions. The LINKE is stubbornly anti-west, anti-freedom and heavily populist.

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