Sam Tanenhaus’ latest book, The Death of Conservatism, argues that conservatism must decide whether it is a movement of cultural revenge or a governing philosophy. NewMajority has asked conservatives to weigh in. First up: Austin Bramwell, a former National Review trustee, and Geoffrey Kabaservice, our resident GOP historian who at one time contributed research to Tanenhaus.
Austin Bramwell, Conservatism Isn’t Dead, It’s Just Intellectually Boring
Tanenhaus wants to reach the sensational but conventional verdict that the movement has become alarmingly radical. Yet the actual picture he draws is of a movement stuck helplessly in a rut. The conservative movement isn’t dangerous or “revanchist;” it’s just boring. Right-wing intellectuals should eschew the movement and reintegrate into the mainstream, not because the movement threatens the Republic, but because freedom of thought can only be found outside of it.
Geoffrey Kabaservice, Conservatism is Dead Without Pragmatism
Many reviewers have claimed Tanenhaus’ book to be a liberal critique of conservatism, but it doesn’t much deal with liberalism or even with conservatives’ battles against liberals. Rather, it’s an explanation for why the vital dynamic between idealism and pragmatism within conservatism has ceased to function. The problem with modern-day conservatism is that the realists have been vanquished by the ideologists, with dire results for the conservative movement and the Republican Party that is now wholly identified with the movement.
265 responses so far
1 anniemargret // Sep 5, 2009 at 8:51 am
“Where did we go wrong? asks David Frum.
Anyone outside the Republican party (I was a registered Independent for decade before I became a registered Democrat), sees it simply, easily. The Republican party is profoundly and increasingly shrill, angry, and divisive. Bi-partisanship? lol. Who they kidding? The few moderates left in their party are cast as traitors and given the heave-ho, excoriated for being ‘too moderate.’ There’s no one left within that party to work on issues, real issues, unless they are there to fabricate distortions and fear-monger.
My 84 y/o mother last night called me saying she and her friends were discussing what is now going on…and was ‘disgusted’ with these “Republicans who keep smearing the President as Hitler, or trying to keep denigrating him.” She asks what they are doing to help the country. She said her generation always had some respect for the President, no matter they were Republican or Democrat, and she sees an all-out attack to hurt him politically, and she also fears for his life, knowing that horribly it is highly possible some right wing nut-job with a gun will get dangerously close to that.
The diatribes from Glenn Beck, Michelle Malkin, Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin, et al……stirring up the culture wars to a fever pitch have real-life consequences if you are baiting the wrong people. And they are baiting the wrong people. Then when something violent happens, they will pretend they had nothing to do with it.
Frankly, if the Republican party continues to feign outrage by the more bombastic and extremist philosophies of the right wing, while tolerating their loud voice within the party, then they will again see a massive defeat in 2012. It’s that simple.
The GOP has nothing constructive to say on the serious issues facing America. They lost the election, and they are sulking. Instead of spending their time proving they are to be trusted, they are just proving they are seriously unfit.
Instead we hear from Dick Cheney, wishing and hoping we have another 9/11 attack (do you doubt it?) so that he can be proved ‘right.’
We have Beck calling the President a ‘racist’ and Palin deliberately and falsely stirring up fear by her ‘death panels’ remark, and Bachmann asking her supporters to ’slit their wrists and spill blood, to DeMint lusting after the death of healthcare reform so that Obama meets his “…Waterloo and breaks him…’
What are the goals of the Republican party? Here’s their one and only goal: The outright destruction of the Presidency of Barack Obama. They are single-minded of purpose.
Until they start acting like adults instead of a Lord of the Flies band of crazies, they will never regain the respect or trust of a nation.
2 midcon // Sep 5, 2009 at 9:32 am
Without using cliches and code words people and nations are slow to change. The human condition is inherently conservative and risk adverse. Risk coupled with success is often rewarded. While risk coupled with failure is often punished. Self preservation makes us think twice about doing something, more so as we mature than when we are younger.
Conservatism is often about maintaining the status quo or returning to some status quo of yesteryear (the good old days). What it should be about is thoughtful change – not radical change. Foresight is a critical component of the change process because the boat does not immediately change course just because you flipped the wheel hard to port or starboard. Remember the Titanic. Things like the impending Social Security crisis is an iceberg that we see on the horizon and yet we make no real effort to turn the wheel to avoid the impact. And when the crisis is looming above us, the conservative refrain will be to stay the course, while the liberal refrain will be “hard to port!” Both responses will have the same outcome – a hole in the ship. Without pragmatism (not just political pragmatism), both liberals and conservatives are doomed to failure. A prime example (currently being ignored by both sides) is immigration in general and illegal immigration in particular. The conservatives will rail against any change that results in a status change from illegal to legal, yet a conservative estimate of 12,000,000 people would have to leave the country (equivalent to every man, woman, and child in either Ohio or Pennsylvania!). Pragmatism (really just common sense) would recognize that there are many illegal parents of minor children who are citizens and who might then become wards of the state. Or that there are some (not all) who are in all respects upstanding citizens – the kind we want as Americans. The conservative proposition really boils down to an all or nothing approach to each and every problem or situation. My name for them are “the binaries” I do apply that name applies equally to anyone (left or right) for whom everything boils down to 1 and 0, true or false, yes or no, on or off. That paradigm is what drives the rise in the ranks of the independent thinkers and doers and thins the ranks of both the left and right until they consist only of those can yell and scream the loudest with outlandish claims of socialism, fascism, Nazism, dictatorship, etc.
While we will always have the extremists (we are a diverse nation after all), I can only hope that most of us will be looking ahead and making the critical decisions to alter course well ahead of the iceberg, regardless of whether change is a few degrees port or starboard.
3 sinz54 // Sep 5, 2009 at 9:55 am
anniemargaret:
Did your 84 year old mother have a problem with all the liberals and antiwar protesters who were smearing Bush as Hitler?
http://tinyurl.com/kufppk
And did you and your 84 year old mother have more respect for the GOP under Bush 41? Or under Reagan?
Oftentimes, when I hear liberals complaining about how awful Bush 43 was, a little gentle probing reveals that they despised Republican presidents all their lives.
Just curious if that’s the case with you.
4 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 9:59 am
Sinz
You beat me to it.
5 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:02 am
Instead we hear from Dick Cheney, wishing and hoping we have another 9/11 attack (do you doubt it?) so that he can be proved ‘right.’
This is simply untrue. Cheney said that he fears that Obama’s policies could lead to another attack. So do I. That’s not the same as wishing an attack on this country. Panetta made a similar allegation and had to retract it.
6 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:06 am
What are the goals of the Republican party? Here’s their one and only goal: The outright destruction of the Presidency of Barack Obama. They are single-minded of purpose.
The exact same thing could be said about the Democrats. For eight years, they conducted a “Bush is bad” campaign and finally succeeded. I don’t recall any solutions or prescriptions offered by the Dems in 2006. It was all “Bush is bad”; ” we are not any safer”; “Bush lied about the WMDs”. Annie, I really like you and believe that your ultimate goal is to help the country. But you need to be a little more objective about the shortcomings of the Dems and stop acting like they are perfection.
7 sinz54 // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:09 am
I’ll tell you EXACTLY where conservatives went wrong.
It was 1992, and Bush 41 was in a tough fight for re-election. He was on the defensive on the economic recession; and with the Cold War over, the GOP’s strengths on foreign policy didn’t interest voters much anymore. So he decided to use the social conservatives as his last hope to get enough votes to win. He campaigned around the country shouting “Values!” “Values!”, even though he looked like he didn’t believe what he was saying.
That was the first Presidential election in which hot-button social issues became the main focus of the GOP’s campaign. Social conservatives had been part of the GOP’s coalition since the late 1970s. But in 1980 and 1984, Reagan had won two terms on economic and foreign policy issues primarily; and in 1988, Bush 41 won his first term as simply the heir to a successful Reagan presidency.
Starting from that 1992 Bush 41 campaign, social conservatism became the main focus of GOP presidential campaigns. And to the voters, that made it look like social conservatism was the public face of conservatism.
What should conservatives do?
Conservatives have to rebuild the other parts of conservatism that have now become overtaken by events: Foreign policy and economic policy. Without vibrant policies in those areas, they will be forced to fall back again and again on social conservatism as their keys to election victory. (And changing demographics make that strategy a loser.)
1. First, they have to come together on a common vision of America’s role in the world, now that Soviet Communism is dead. Fighting Soviet Communism was the main focus of modern conservatism since its beginnings–but now that’s over. What should replace it?
2. Second, they have to admit once and for all that on the economy, they are Burkean conservatives, not libertarians. Modern behavioral economics and behavioral finance have exploded once and for all the myth that markets are always rational and always self-correcting. As we saw in recent years, markets can become so wildly irrational as to threaten the stability of the nation. That should trouble conservatives (but not libertarians, who keep imagining that they are the heirs to John Galt who will return to rebuilt America from the ruins.) What should government do about that?
8 Observer // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:12 am
“Movement of cultural revenge.”
Well put.
9 anniemargret // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:49 am
sinz54, #54: Here’s the honest truth. I come from a Republican family. My father, who passed just now two years ago, was a WWII staff sargeant, fiercely patriotic, a second generation Italian-American, who was proud of his country and prouder to be born in it. He was a Republican until his death, but admitted he thought “Bush (43) was too much of a cowboy” (his words) .’ He worked for the USIA, a subsidiary of the Voice of America, for 35 years. Proud of that, too.
I grew up in a typical social conservative home. My father and mother both, voted Republican, and when I was old enough to vote, I did as well. I voted for Reagan, as did my parents did.
But my parents and their generation. We had a work ethic, personal responsibility, and typical “Christian values” (Roman Catholic) and we took no money from anyone, except an assist from the family, if all else failed. We lived in NYC among Jews and mostly other Italian/Irish Catholics and we learned early on to respect others’ cultures and religions.
There was no such thing as ‘culture wars’ in their day. Live and let live. We were ‘all Americans and loved our country.”
My mother, who is typical of her generation, who continued to work up to the age of 80 y/o, is aghast at ‘what has happened to the beautiful country I grew up in?” She understands healthcare reform and understands the problems, but believes the town hall protesters are hurting themselves, more than helping themselves. She intensely dislikes the screaming and yelling, the calling out of ’socialists’ “Nazis’, etc…”
Like my father, they grew up on the East Side of NYC, when violence and crime were not at the staggering percentages we see now across the U.S. They grew up in a time when people were poor, but neighbors helped each other, and appreciated how great this country was, not only because we all had the ‘opportunity’ to rise on our own merits, or because we had a ‘fantastic military’ but because we were also a nation ‘who helped each other out. ”
My father, God rest his soul, used to say there were a lot of ‘nuts around- don’t listen to them”… I think while he might not always be supportive of all of Obama’s policies, one thing he used to be appreciative of, was social program, and when my oldest son as dx’d with a mental disorder at the age of 18 and dropped from insurance, could find no job with insurance, he encouraged me to ‘get him some government help – he needs it.” He was no shy bunny about social programs when the need arose-he thought it was part of what America such a great country – that we helped those in need.
So to your answer….and I beg your pardon going on this long…. my mother’s antagonism now against Republicans is not from a purely driven ideological standpoint. To her, the POTUS should always be respected. To her, and her generation, rhetoric that is filled with hate and division is anathema to her concept of a “beautiful America.”
I think Republicans have to remember that these Tea-Partiers and ‘town hall protesters’ are only a minor segment of a much larger, much more calm and deliberative majority across America. They are listening and they are watching, and they are not happy with what they are seeing and hearing.
Thanks for listening….
10 Rodak // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:53 am
As I see it, both Anniemargret [ Sep 5, 2009 at 8:51 am] and Sinz54 [ Sep 5, 2009 at 10:09 am ] are making valid points, each from their own end of the spectrum. From the middle, Midcon [Sep 5, 2009 at 9:32 am] presents what seems to me to be the obvious locus of the contemporary conservative debacle; the failure to realize that, “Conservatism is often about maintaining the status quo or returning to some status quo of yesteryear (the good old days). What it should be about is thoughtful change – not radical change.”
All of that noted, it is very true that those radical conservatives who have (since Obama’s election) grabbed the microphones are plainly inciting the clueless rubes and gun-totin’ yahoos to violence. In so doing, they are putting the very life of their president in jeopardy. While the First Amendment protects them, as far as they have taken things rhetorically to-date, this does not mean that the party and the constituency that they claim to represent should not take it upon themselves to silence these nut-jobs before something terrible occurs due to their pernicious influence on the intellectually challenged. The GOP managed to purge itself of David Duke, back in the day. Why does it not now purge itself of Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, et al.? Can it be that they are really the heart-and-soul of the new conservatism, and that there simply exists no will–no leaders who listen to the small still voice of their better angels–to oppose them?
11 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:02 am
Sinz,
Excellent post. Excellent questions. On the foreign policy front, I think it is time to take a look at troop deployment and institutions that were put in place in response to the Soviet Union. I honestly don’t understand why we still have NATO. More importantly, I see no reason to expand it. Why expand our military commitments while we are struggling to deal with Afghanistan? I think our foreign policy should be centered around fighting the ideology of Radical Islam. We should find ways to deal with failed states and try to connect them to the world economy. Spread the concept of human rights and self-government. And I don’t mean to suggest we need to invade countries to do it. We should only invade if our security is threatened.
I agree with your comments regarding the economy. However, I do not agree withn your assessment that markets are not always rational and always self-correcting. They are. Firms took on additional risk because they were either forced due to government policy or knew that that were “too big to fail” and would get a bailout. Nothing irrational there. Also, firms make mistakes. There was a complete miscalculation of risk by rating agencies with respect to MBS and other asset back securities. The market can self-correct and will self-correct. But the process can be painful and politically intolerable.
12 anniemargret // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:03 am
Chekote: Yes, true. There was a lot of screaming and hissy fits against George Bush. While I did not vote for him, when he became President and we were attacked on 9/11, I put my full support with him, as did millions of others. Criticism leveled against him came with the years. I felt he and Cheney were deliberately deceptive and misleading. That angered me. Sending young men off to war as we did in Iraq, should have had a much more substantive basis, than trying to align Saddam with 9/11, which they did, over and over again.
I will not get into yet another debate about Iraq here…I think you and I will always fundamentally disagree. We will have to agree to disagree.
I intensely dislike deceit, and while I can understand our government cannot always reveal everything due to national security, there is something very wrong when Americans are deliberately fooled. I would feel this way whether it is a Democrat or Republican in the W.H.
I have respect for some Republicans, I am not a rigid ideologue, nor on the far left, no matter how much some on this blog has tried to characterize me. I want very much for our country to *resolve* issues rather than this dogfight which just keeps us all on the wheel, going round, getting nothing accomplished.
Because I work with ordinary everyday people from all walks of life, I am nearer to what they think and what they believe, and perhaps because of my own life circumstances (divorced, remarried, three adult children, one of whom fell thru the cracks, mental illness/no insurance, going from a ‘corporate’ life to a middle class one), I see the world differently from you perhaps.
I think this blog could be an effective one. If the Democrats have to fight on issues with Republicans, it should be on substantive issues, and not this absurdity and decline into hateful rhetoric.
13 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:09 am
Annie
I honestly don’t know ANYONE who has a problem with a social safety net intended to help those who CAN’T help themselves except for the most ideological liberatarians. By the reason I consider myself a conservative is because I don’t subscribe that EVERY problem needs to be addressed by the federal government. Sometimes well intentioned programs like welfare end up doing more harm like the destruction of the black family and the marginalization of male role models in the AA community.
14 anniemargret // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:18 am
Chekote: Yes…I understand. I also do not subscribe to people getting lazy and irresponsible – it is not the way I was brought up . You work hard, you do your best. But have you visited your local community clinic lately? These are pathetic people, many doing their best to get out of the holes they were born into, or sunk into.
In the end, we have to be human beings first, Republicans and Democrats, second. Welfare as you put it can hurt more than it helps. I agree it should be rooted out and given only to those in true need, and not a long-term solution. I don’t think illegal immigration is a good thing, but at the same time, rounding up millions and sending them packing, is not always the most pragmatic solution to a problem that began two decades ago.
The problem here as I see it is extremism. Republicans are on auto-pilot lumping every Democrat that voted for Obama as ‘leftists’ , etc.. Not true. I would venture to say that the majority of people I work with, or live with, who are Democrats,- center or slightly left of center Democrats.
I know there are intelligent Republicans who would prefer to see their party return to some class and sanity, instead of the insanity we are hearing and seeing on radio, TV, and the Net. But their voices are small against the tsunami.
I read everything. I read liberal and conservative blogs, the NYT and the WaPo, Andrew Sullivan and Lew Rockwell. I listen to Rush Limbaugh (when I can and for as long as I can since I think he is destructive, not instructive), etc… I read other’s opinions because I might learn something from it. Both parties can learn from each other, if the shouting could stop for a moment. I could stay on Daily Kos and Huffington and TPC and not have anyone call me ‘Jeanine Garofalo”. (hee).
Perhaps we are on the same page, opposite ends of it, but on the same page nevertheless.
15 sinz54 // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:23 am
anniemargaret & chekote:
A major part of the problem is that the old patrician intellectual conservatives like William F. Buckley, William Rusher, David Brudnoy, etc., whose ideas energized modern conservatism, are either dead or in semi-retirement. No new young group of intellectual conservatives has arisen to replace them.
Instead, the conservative movement has been persuaded by such as Karl Rove to just write off intellectualism as hopelessly liberal, and make conservatism the voice of the anti-intellectual Know-Nothings. (Rove: “What do you call someone with a Ph.D.? A Democrat.”)
The result of this has been that conservatism has either become ossified, unable to adapt its principles to changing times–or else it has become detached from reality, as in the flirtation of conservatives like Ann Coulter with creationism. And it has made it virtually impossible to win in more educated parts of the nation like New England or Silicon Valley.
We’ve gone from William F. Buckley and Edward Teller to Sarah Palin and “Joe the Plumber.”
A movement without a constant infusion of new ideas cannot long survive.
16 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:26 am
I intensely dislike deceit, and while I can understand our government cannot always reveal everything due to national security, there is something very wrong when Americans are deliberately fooled. I would feel this way whether it is a Democrat or Republican in the W.H.
So do I. I just don’t agree with your assessment that Cheney intentionally misled Americans. What happened was a catastrophic, international intelligence failure. And Bush did not handle it properly.
17 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 12:12 pm
There seems to be a pining for William F. Buckley. While I certainly respected and loved WFB, he was mothers milk for my burgeoning conservativism early on.
The success of the Republican Party has brought a lot of folks into the fold.
It seems to me that this longing for WFB, is rooted in a disdain for the common man, the average American, the hoi polloi….. and longing for the NorthEastern blue blood old money Ivy League elitist high brow conservativism.
Joe the Plumber and Palin need to shut up and sit down and learn their proper place as silent voters and supporters of David Brooks elitist East Coast Conservatism.
In a way its also the old sectional domination of the North East over the rest of the Nation, that developed especially post US Civil War, that is being pined for.
18 sinz54 // Sep 5, 2009 at 12:18 pm
chekote:
That was not a “miscalculation.” That was fraud.
The rating agencies were paid to rate securities, not by the investors in those securities, but by the issuers of those securities. That introduced a clear bias toward overrating those securities.
Plus, if an issuer didn’t want to deal with Moody’s, say, Moody’s would take revenge by issuing a ratings report that deliberately downrated that issuer’s bonds. In the recording industry, this used to be known as “payola”–and it was made illegal. So these investors and rating agencies were not content to make their profits by rational calculations and rational investments in a free market. They set up sweetheart deals, payola, and blackmail.
Ordinary miscalculations would be expected to follow a probability distribution, with calculations in one direction being offset by calculations in the opposite. But that’s not what happened here. They rigged the game– in the direction of attracting more and more suckers to invest their money with them.
I’m not an expert in behavioral economics. But I’ll say this:
If markets were rational, no one would buy state lottery tickets.
19 anniemargret // Sep 5, 2009 at 12:21 pm
sinz54: “Starting from that 1992 Bush 41 campaign, social conservatism became the main focus of GOP presidential campaigns. And to the voters, that made it look like social conservatism was the public face of conservatism.”
Yes. Social conservatives keep bringing the issues back to abortion. They want to ‘christianize’ the government . They want to paint anyone who doesn’t agree with this as ‘leftists.’ When it is actually the other way around. Abortion should be kept legal, but rare. More efforts and monies to go into teaching young adults to be sexually responsible and use birth control. Less unwanted pregnancies, less abortion. I dislike the extreme left position that aborting a fetus is birth control, yet at the same time, criminalizing abortion is wrong.
Yes, I have always believed Republicans were strong on foreign policy, but they also forgot there are human beings facing domestic problems here at home. Putting either problem on the back burner is wrong for conservatives and liberals, alike. Both are serious issues and both need to be addressed seriously.
btw…I am a librarian and had the opportunity two years ago to have a nice e-chat with Christopher Buckley, when his new book came out. He was virtually booted out because he wasn’t extreme enough for the party, right?
And yes, sinz54, you are right again when you say the Republicans have now embraced, ‘as stupid as I wanna be’ as their party mantra, rather than courting intellectualism (which now means a B.A. degree from your local college, sadly). Until I see them come back to their senses, (Pre Bush), one simply cannot take them seriously . None of ‘educated’ family and friends do.
PS: e.g. now I heard on the news that ‘mothers from Arkansas’ are going to mobilize to keep their children home so that they won’t be subjected to Obama’s political or ’socialist/fascist’ views. He’s probably going to tell the kids to stay in school and get a good education . If anything, Obama is a great role model for black and minority inner-city school-children, no?
When China and India are outsmarting Americans in science and math, I would say that’s a good thing!
Good God. It gets weirder by day.
20 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Is the Constitution an anachronism, filled with old tired ideas, or are those ideas timeless.
This is the Burkean philosophy, that throwing out the old wisdom, for fad or fashion often leads to foolishness.
And Burke was a strong defender of Christianity.
Your twisting of Burke isnt wisdom, its folly.
And BTW, Burke didnt approve of the British Empire, and he wouldnt have approved of mass immigration and “Multi culturalism.”
And you can take that to the bank.
21 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Is the Constitution an anachronism, filled with old tired ideas, or are those ideas timeless.
This is the Burkean philosophy, that throwing out the old wisdom, for fad or fashion often leads to foolishness.
And Burke was a strong defender of Christianity.
Your twisting of Burke isnt wisdom, its folly.
And BTW, Burke didnt approve of the British Empire, and he wouldnt have approved of mass immigration and “Multi culturalism.”
And you can take that to the bank.
22 sinz54 // Sep 5, 2009 at 12:31 pm
escapevelocity:
No.
It’s rooted in a longing for the days when conservatives admired those Americans with intellect and a sound education in the humanities–the arts and sciences. And when many famous conservatives had such a sound education themselves.
That education need not take place in a Northeast university–or in any university. In my lifetime, I have known several fine men who were autodidacts–self-taught. But that education is needed.
Can Joe the Plumber explain Edmund Burke’s ideas? Has he read Russell Kirk’s “The Conservative Mind”? Or even Buckley’s “God and Man at Yale”? Or Milton Friedman’s “Free to Choose” and other works? What does Joe the Plumber think of Leo Strauss?
The intellectual roots of modern conservatism can be traced to such philosophers. If Joe the Plumber doesn’t know about them, then there need to be other intellectual leaders of conservatism who do.
Buckley did. But now he’s gone.
It’s odd. Today’s conservatives are accustomed to railing against the poor education offered by many of today’s public schools. But they put forward few role models of what a properly educated conservative looks like, and talks like.
23 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 1:53 pm
The rating agencies were paid to rate securities, not by the investors in those securities, but by the issuers of those securities. That introduced a clear bias toward overrating those securities.
It was not fraud by a long shot. That has always been the case and we have had no problem with other securities on the same scale as MBS. The fundamental problem with the MBS market is its lack of transperancy. I am not going into the details because it would bore everyone. Part of the reason high ratings were given to certain tranches of CMOs was because they were insured by AIG for default. Do you think that AIG insured all those instruments knowing that they were going to default? I have been in the securities regulation business for over 20 years. Do people try to get away with stuff, push the envelope? Of course. But I have never seen someone doing something that they KNEW it was going to bring their company down.
As far as the issuers paying for the ratings, if not them then whom? I just helped with compliance regarding a private placement offering. They issuer paid for a third party to issue a due diligence report on the deal. We had to change the terms of the deal so that it is MORE advantageous for the investor. Just because the issuer pays, is not fraud.
24 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 2:14 pm
It’s rooted in a longing for the days when conservatives admired those Americans with intellect and a sound education in the humanities–the arts and sciences.
This brings to mind a pet peeve of mine. Going to a university just for the sake of gaining an education is looked down upon. My undergraduate degree was in anthropology. My mentor allowed me to count towards my degree classes in philosophy, psychology, sociology, economics, political science. I love it. Absolutely, love it. When I got out of school, everytime I would tell someone that my degree was in anthropology, they would ask: “What can you do with that?”. It was really annoying at first. Eventually, I started to reply” “Hopefully, I can be an educated person”.
25 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 2:21 pm
You just proved that somebody knows, namely you.
And I do as well. You cant win without Joe the Plumber, with just a bunch of intllectuals.
That seems to be your mistake.
We have plenty of well educated conservatives.
I think the problem is that Universities have been taken over by far New Leftist radicals, and are revising history and re-assessing Western Literature via Marxist analysis, twisting everything into the most grotesque analyis driven by anti Westernism.
I agree that a concerted effort should be made to re infiltrate the Western Education system and take it back from the Radical Left Baby Boomers. And the lower school system as well. School Choice will help with that endevour.
Anyways, your analysis is faulty, there is plenty of intellectual firepower in the Conservative movement.
The problem isnt the firepower, the problem is that the Left is now the Establisment, they control the Education System and dominate the Media….and thus control the debate, who gets to speak, and how those speakers and thoughts are framed.
Ill continue later, Ive got stuff to fix.
26 joedee1969 // Sep 5, 2009 at 2:33 pm
I just read C. Rich’s new book. ” The Conservative Reconstruction Project” and it was right on point with the conservative movement. I sent him an e-mail telling him about this site. He checked it out and wrote me back and said he loved it. He even put it on his blogroll and that guy never puts a whole lot on his link list. He must have love it. Anyway check out this link:
http://americaspeaksink.com/the-conservative-reconstructon-project/
27 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 2:47 pm
OT,
This site is very difficult to load. After I post, it takes a very long time to come back to the post and comments section and often locks up. Furthermore, it also has trouble loading sometimes at the original arrival, and if not then on a particular Article/Post.
It gets in the way of debate. I think you should fix it.
28 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 3:12 pm
joedee1969
Thanks for the link.
Annie,
You might want to check out http://www.littlegreenfootball.com. It is another site dedicated to eradicating the nutty element on the right. I think you would enjoy it.
29 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 3:12 pm
escape,
I think you might need a new computer.
30 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 3:35 pm
While my computer is not cutting edge. I have no trouble on other sites. Its this site that is the problem.
31 rbottoms // Sep 5, 2009 at 3:49 pm
I’m not a fan of the site, but you do have the URL wrong: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/.
Unless you really are interested in hot Russian babes.
32 sdspringy // Sep 5, 2009 at 3:51 pm
May I quote Mark Twain is reference to conservatism “The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.”
When Reid and Boxer and and any number of Dems are bounced out of office in Nov 2010 will you all be in the same hurry to ring the deathknell of the Dem Party. Doubtfull.
And Buckley was totally incapable of creating a Conservative Party without Reagen. Who appealed to the common man more the the intellectual Northeasterners. The exact NEers who did not like Reagen because of this appeal.
So if you want a political party which hopefully begins again to respect fiscal discipline, and life, and free enterprise. Then the Frumm’s better be prepared to treat the common man, Joe Plumber, Sarah Palin’s, with more respect than the Dems treat the black voting block. Because if you don’t see it by now, Obama is a one-and-done President.
33 Observer // Sep 5, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Chekote, you wrote: “I just don’t agree with your assessment that Cheney intentionally misled Americans. What happened was a catastrophic, international intelligence failure. And Bush did not handle it properly.”
I can’t agree, even if I get your point. Even if Cheney and friends didn’t directly mislead Americans about the need for war, two disturbing errors remain, both of which call Cheney’s honesty into question:
1. Widespread postwar evidence of agenda-based intelligence shopping and short-circuiting of intelligence protocols to spin the case for invasion, which might not be a lie so much as it was a policy designed to guarantee the same result as a lie.
2. Repeated claims by Cheney and friends throughout the early post-invasion period that there was no insurgency, that victory over the non-existent insurgency was imminent and that no additional force or attention was needed – despite ample and escalating evidence to the contrary.
I would have loved to see an apology from Cheney to all those, many of them loyal servants of the Administration itself, who had advocated for clear-and-hold tactics as at Tal Afar, or for a surge on the same lines, or for reinforcements, all of whom who were refused a hearing or sidestepped for years entirely and solely because of what taking those actions might mean for the personality credibility of Dick Cheney and his President. Instead, what we had in 2008 was Administration leaders crowing about the triumph of the surge as if it had been their plan to do it all along instead of it being something they were essentially forced to do long after it had been proposed..
34 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Arguing about Cheney and the Iraq War has nothing to do with moving forward, forming a New Majority, or about Intellectual Conservativism.
35 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 4:38 pm
observer
Regarding the intelligence, George Tenet a Democrat and Clinton appointee said that Saddam having WMDs was a “slam dunk”. This was reported by Bob Woodward in our of his book, I believe. Woodward is hardly a right winger. In addition, every foreign intelligence outfit made the same assessment that Hussein had WMDs. Hussein’s at one point had WMDs as documented by the UN (hardly a right wing organization) and he failed to provide any evidence/documentation that he had destroyed his WMD arsenal. That is why Tenent and the rest of the world intelligence BELIVED he had them. So let it GO! On second thought, keep harping on Bush, Cheney and the Iraq War because it will lead to a GOP victory in 2010.
36 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 4:39 pm
escape
The Dems are re-arguing the war.
37 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 4:42 pm
And quite frankly Joe the Plumber and Sarah Palin have nothing to do with it either.
The problem wasnt Sarah Palin, the problem is that nobody but squishy moderates liked McCain. And thus the VP pick which is the bone to other coalition members in the party, was the only bone going around, because McCain didnt represent any of them. The VP is a throw away position, look at Joe Biden, FFS!
Fred Thompson/Rudy Guiliani wins the Election.
Mitt Romney/Fred Thompson wins the Election.
McCain/Palin loses….leaves disgruntled coalition members.
McCain/Guiliani loses….leaves disgruntled coalition members.
McCain/Romney loses….leaves disgruntled coalition members.
McCain/Huckabee loses….leaves disgruntled coalition members.
McCain was the problem.
38 agentprovocateur // Sep 5, 2009 at 4:44 pm
“Second, they have to admit once and for all that on the economy, they are Burkean conservatives, not libertarians. ”
Oh, good luck with that. After all, where do all those libertarians have left to go?
“It seems to me that this longing for WFB, is rooted in a disdain for the common man, the average American, the hoi polloi….. and longing for the NorthEastern blue blood old money Ivy League elitist high brow conservativism.”
No, it is rooted in a disdain for know-nothings like Sarah Palin and Joe The Plumber and rabble-rousing demagogues like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. No matter what his background, WFB seems like a genius when compared to these people.
Finally, it is not surprising that escapevelocity would recommend Little Green Footballs, considering his/her own views on the Islamic Threat to take over the whole wide world. A pity the James Bond producers can’t use that as the root of their next movie.
39 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 5:12 pm
I actually suggest Harry’s Place for information on the World Wide Scourge of Islam and particularly the Islamification of Europe, and how the Lefts twisted fantasies and agenda are aiding and abetting Islam.
Also Islam in Europe blog, for a running tab of news articles.
40 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Or you can continue to be a know nothing at best, or actively aiding and abetting Islam, more likely.
Moral Equivalence
Cultural Equivalence
Multi Culturalism
Identity Politics Tribalism
Its going to get real ugly over in Europe real soon. And the whole thing was set up by Utopian Visions and Anti Western ideology of the Western Left.
41 anniemargret // Sep 5, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Chekote: “When I got out of school, everytime I would tell someone that my degree was in anthropology, they would ask: “What can you do with that?”. It was really annoying at first. Eventually, I started to reply” “Hopefully, I can be an educated person”.”
Yay! Beautifully said. Me, too. B.A. Liberal Arts, CUNY, and I took a cultural anthropology course, geology 101, geography of Africa, linguistics, European history, art history, skiing 102, and gymnastics 103 (I barely made it over the pommel horse).
It was a GREAT education, and I loved every minute of it, and if there was a way to make money taking liberal arts classes all week I would do it in a heartbeat.
42 LFC // Sep 5, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Chekote said… The exact same thing could be said about the Democrats. For eight years, they conducted a “Bush is bad” campaign and finally succeeded. I don’t recall any solutions or prescriptions offered by the Dems in 2006. It was all “Bush is bad”; ” we are not any safer”; “Bush lied about the WMDs”.
Well according to the bipartisan panel that investigated, he did. He scrubbed caveats on intelligence given to the Senate. He intentionally held tight to anything he felt bolstered his case and studiously ignored anything that didn’t. That’s not a “mistake”. That’s fraud.
People were angry that he went to Iraq, leaving Afghanistan to flounder. He said it would be fine. He was wrong.
People were angry about torture. He said, point blank, that we don’t torture. He lied. We now have seen tons of evidence that prove he lied. Heck, Cheney just lied again when he said that the recently declassified CIA papers would show that torture worked. It showed no such thing. That’s why Cheney followed up with saying that the people chosen for “enhanced interrogation” gave up the most intelligence … a VERY different statement than saying they gave it up BECAUSE of torture.
Condi brought up the specter of mushroom clouds due to some aluminum tubes, but the very gov’t experts who actually knew how to enrich uranium said the tubes weren’t suitable for that purpose. She lied.
Outside of the nutjob 9/11 conspiracy theorists, who were never mainstream left and were mostly ignored, most of the complaints made against Bush were right on target.
Regarding the intelligence, George Tenet a Democrat and Clinton appointee said that Saddam having WMDs was a “slam dunk”.
Yeah, and Alan Greenspan said that deficits mattered … until he was under the Bush administration.
Oh, yeah. I guess the U.N. inspectors who said there was nothing weren’t credible, but a mentally ill Iraqi and a scheming ex-pat feeding us false info were.
And if we want to talk about Bush’s legacy on the econ0my, we can talk about the institutional failures of his SEC, OTS, and OCC. Regulatory agencies were hamstrung by his picks.
43 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Iowahawk, is right on top of things…
An Ill Wind is Breaking For Our President
T. Coddington Van Voorhees VII
Editor at Large, the National Topsider
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/09/an-ill-wind-is-breaking-for-our-president.html
For those who may not know, he pulled Vorhees out of his hat when Son of Buckley put his support behind Barack Hussein Obama before the election…
Which can be found here….Brilliant stuff!
As a Conservative, I Must Say I Do Quite Like the Cut of this Obama Fellow’s Jib
By T. Coddington Van Voorhees VII
Columnist, The National Topsider
Membership Chairman, The Newport Club
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2008/10/as-a-conservative-i-must-say-i-do-quite-like-the-cut-of-this-obama-fellows-jib.html
44 anniemargret // Sep 5, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Reagan had an enormous appeal and an ability to make you laugh with him, even if you disagreed with him. It was hard NOT to like Reagan! And I am saying this as a confirmed Democrat. I understood his wide appeal and frankly, he would have thrown the neocons and these extremists right wingers out of the way – I think he was smarter to see that they are only hurting his party, not helping.
George Tenet is a toadie.
McCain lost because he was no longer McCain we can trust, but McCain the panderer. He also lost because of Palin, make no mistake about it. He pandered to the right wing and to the religious right.
This has nothing whatever to do with rural vs city, university-educated vs high school educated. (My father was an autodidactic and knew world history and geography like the back of his hand). I know people from small little towns who rose to great positions and not every college educated kid gets to Wall Street.
These are foils for the right wing which loves the culture war. Both parties need world smart, intellectually astute, tough but compassionate people in high office. That the GOP would hold Palin up as a symbol as being ready for the Presidency says it all. Sorry…her ignorance on issues showed early and often, and that was a sorry sight. A sorrier sight for the GOP I would think.
Say what you want about Joe Biden, but he has decades of experience against Palin as V.P. Anyway, I like him!
45 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 5:48 pm
lfc
If the Dems want to go on about WMDs, Cheney, Bush lying for the next four, ten year, please do. It will mean GOP victories. The 9/11 commission was a joke. In other to make everybody happy, they made a bunch of general statements to satisfy the political needs of each side. Truly pathetic and a total waste of taxpayers money. Every intelligence report contains CYA language to cover every eventuality. You should know at least that much.
46 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 6:04 pm
annie
As you know, I am not a fan of Palin but Biden said some real doozies during the campaign. He talked about FDR going on TV to speak to the American people when the market crashed. Well, FDR was not president when the 1929 crash happened and there weren’t any TVs. He got the constitutional role of the VP wrong even though he is constitutional lawyer. He said “we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon” which is news to every in that country. And his idea to split Iraq into three nations was totally crazy and would have guaranteed a prolonged civil war and more instability in an already unstable region. The best thing that happened to Biden was Palin who didn’t know enough to truly embarass him during the debate.
47 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 6:08 pm
And if we want to talk about Bush’s legacy on the econ0my, we can talk about the institutional failures of his SEC, OTS, and OCC. Regulatory agencies were hamstrung by his picks.
Regulators are hamstrung by a ton of feel-good, idiotic, regulations that does NOTHING to effectively regulate the markets and prevent fraud. Moreover, the examiner ranks are full of recent college graduates who don’t know enough to figure out how to look for the bodies.
48 anniemargret // Sep 5, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Chekote:
Biden: Yes, he made many of us cringe at times. But do you doubt his sincerity? I don’t.
His faux pas would certainly be cataloged under ’serious gaffes ‘…. but…… Palin is deliberatively divisive, fear-mongers, and lies with impunity to garner political votes.
There’s a difference. One needs to re-read some history books, and take some time to think before he speaks….the other needs to find her soul.
49 runsbatted // Sep 5, 2009 at 7:27 pm
The answer is in the language conservatives use. We must redefine our ideals. The road to serfdom, which is great imagery, is not realistic. America is not going to become a fiefdom. A better phrase is “perpetual power.” Freedom to become wealthy, but not freedom to resurrect a landed aristocracy. Another is limited government. The fight for limited government has become the fight for no government. I don’t remember the last time I heard a conservative defend our governmentally system unless it was a military contract or a war. A better phrase is “good government.” If limited government fits within this rubric so be it, but the acceptance of government, of politics must exist within the conservative movement. I hate to tell my southern friends this, but the confederacy died 150 years ago.
50 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 7:44 pm
His faux pas would certainly be cataloged under ’serious gaffes ‘…. but…… Palin is deliberatively divisive, fear-mongers, and lies with impunity to garner political votes. — anniemargaret
LOL!
That is what the Left does as deeply cherished priciple….not Palin!
51 agentprovocateur // Sep 5, 2009 at 8:02 pm
“Or you can continue to be a know nothing at best, or actively aiding and abetting Islam, more likely.”
Yes, of course…originally from Abu Dhabi, I’m now in a secret cell somewhere in Minnesota…spare us all the paranoia and delusions…while such talk may have helped get us into Iraq, it won’t work to help the conservative cause…Democrats will thank you for the blathering, though…
52 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 8:04 pm
runsbatted // Sep 5, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Bush expanded government. I honestly don’t know one conservative that is advocating no government. Ron Paul is libertarian.
53 sinz54 // Sep 5, 2009 at 8:17 pm
agentprovocateur:
But that’s chekote’s point.
It’s possible to be an enthusiastic conservative, support an assertive foreign policy, a strong military, and a free market domestically–without wallowing in the kind of anti-intellectualism that we’re seeing in the New Media these days. (On both sides.)
Charles Johnson of LittleGreenFootballs makes his case logically and with real evidence. He doesn’t engage in cliches or wild shooting from the hip.
Such as the cliches and wild shooting from the hip we’ve gotten from you.
54 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Thomas Sowell the Paranoid Anti Intellectual Fearmonger talking crazy talk about Utopianism and Islamic Agression
Utopia Versus Freedom
by Thomas Sowell
Tuesday, August 04, 2009
http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2009/08/04/utopia_versus_freedom
Suicide of the West?
by Thomas Sowell
Tuesday, September 01, 2009
http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2009/09/01/suicide_of_the_west
55 agentprovocateur // Sep 5, 2009 at 9:07 pm
re: sinz54 // Sep 5, 2009 at 8:17 pm
So magnanimous to someone who banned you from his website.
56 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Sinz
Let me clear up a few things. I would not have supported the Iraq War without the thread of WMDs. What I would have done differently from Bush is: 1) fire Tenet and 2) I would have never said that the invasion of Iraq was justified without the WMDs.
57 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 9:22 pm
The loon from Minnesota strikes again:
Bachmann: Dems Are Sabotaging Me Because I Might Become President
58 anniemargret // Sep 5, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Chekote: re Bachmann. Evidently God is a Republican. Who knew?
59 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 9:57 pm
It seems that LGF Charles Johnson is commonly mistaken for a “Rightwinger.”
His politics are Left. He supported Bush, because he supported both the War in Iraq and the War in Afghanistan. And is virulently anti Islam, anti Jihad, and anti Shariah. So some people mistake him for a Rightwinger, because the left is none of those.
Think of him as Joe Lieberman.
Speaking of Lieberman, those radical Leftwingers tried to get rid of ole Joe, by funding a far Left candidate, and slandering ole Joe from sea to shining sea.
Bootin ole Joe out the party like that!
Those Democrats really know how to move to the center, and show the Independents how intellegent and moderate they are, dont they?
LOL!
BTW, I like Joe Lieberman, he is very intelligent, thoughtful, indeed intellectual. He is what they call the Liberal Left, or what remains of it. It might be just Joe left…LOL! I dont agree with Joe Lieberman on a lot of issues, but you dont get the sense that he hates his country and thinks it needs “fundamental change.”
60 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Does Obama Face a 2012 Challenge In His Own Party?
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/september_2009/does_obama_face_a_2012_challenge_in_his_own_party
61 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:24 pm
annie
Can you believe that loon?! I wish I had known you while I lived in NYC. You are great company even if we disagree.
62 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Not This Pig (The Most Racially Divisive Administration since the 20s)
Victor Davis Hanson (another Conservative intellectual)
http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/not-this-pig/
63 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:33 pm
And is virulently anti Islam,
Not true. He has an ongoing fight with Spencer of Jihad Watch
anti Jihad,
I can’t think of anyone in American politics that is pro-Jihad
and anti Shariah.
As is anyone who is not a Muslim.
64 anniemargret // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Chekote: hee. You and I probably bumped into each other sometime on Madison Avenue; life is stranger than fiction.
I remember doing that with Joe Namath. He had a large Italian bread under one arm, and a gorgeous blonde in the other, strolling down Madison Avenue, and I bumped into him, and said, “You’re Joe Namath!” And he said, with a big grin…”…have a nice day m’am.” Of course I was 18. He was still the looker, then. (don’t have a clue about that Italian bread, though). This is a True Story. Promise!
Anyway…thank you kindly. I feel there is some good coming off this blog, don’t you? Even if we all agree to disagree? At some point, we all just have to… Frum is probably seething by now.
65 greg_barton // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:47 pm
It’s official: Conservativism is dead.
66 LFC // Sep 5, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Chekote said… Every intelligence report contains CYA language to cover every eventuality. You should know at least that much.
Statements that evidence was gained through torture in foreign countries is CYA? When it is has been stated over and over by actual gov’t interrogators that torture produces reams of false information?
Statements that evidence was from one unreliable source, and corroboration could never be obtained is CYA?
You, my friend, are living in a world of denial.
Chekote said… If the Dems want to go on about WMDs, Cheney, Bush lying for the next four, ten year, please do. It will mean GOP victories.
Uh, you’ve just very disingenuously shifted gears. Your premise was that the left was doing the same thing to Bush as the right is doing to Obama. I pointed out that the left was, in fact, correct. Bush and his administration did lie, obfuscate, and generally f*** up royally. Obama is not a socialist, is not like Hitler, was born in this country, is not supporting death panels, and is not trying to get the gov’t between you and your doctor. If you can’t see the difference, you are part of the GOP problem.
Chekote said… I have been in the securities regulation business for over 20 years.
and then said… Regulators are hamstrung by a ton of feel-good, idiotic, regulations that does NOTHING to effectively regulate the markets and prevent fraud. Moreover, the examiner ranks are full of recent college graduates who don’t know enough to figure out how to look for the bodies.
I call bulls***. You can’t possibly be involved in securities regulation and not know how the ranks of the SEC were gutted and walls were put up to block investigations. You can’t possibly not know how the OCC blocked the investigations of over 20 state attorney generals into mortgage fraud, and then refused to actually pick up the investigations they claimed were there jurisdiction. You can’t possibly not know how the OTS dodged it’s duty to investigate much of anything. Actually, you sound EXACTLY like the kind of person Bush would have wanted in securities “regulation”.
67 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:01 pm
I believe you Annie. I bumped into Jeff Bridges on 57th street. I just babbled like an idiot because he was soooo good looking. My recent babbling happened when I met Charles Krauthammer. I don’t know whether you agree or disagree with him. But he is brilliant. He gave a 45 minute speech. No notes and it flowed beautifully. And amazing intellect. How can my political movement attract people with the intellect of Krauthammer and at the same time have Michelle Bachmann or Palin?!
68 greg_barton // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Here’s an idea I’m hearing here, correct me if I’m wrong: “Democrats waged a ‘Bush is bad’ campaign for eight years, and it helped them win in 2008.” Is that about right.
That is so wrong. It’s not that some Democrats didn’t wage that campaign. They certainly did. But it had very little effect. Bush was re-elected in 2004, after all. It wasn’t until after Katrina and the spending of the Republican congress got out of control that conservatives themselves started turning their backs on him, causing the political tide to turn. Yes, Democrats were energized for Obama, but it wasn’t from a negative “Bush be bad” standpoint.
The thing is, the “hate your enemy” idea just doesn’t work well with most Democrats and moderates. It works great with the majority of the Republican party, so I know you guys will keep doing it, but you can’t justify it by saying “but you guys did it to.” (Though I know you will. It helps assuage your guilt over spreading hate.)
69 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:24 pm
LOL!
The next 2 elections are going to be really depressing for you.
70 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:24 pm
You can’t possibly be involved in securities regulation and not know how the ranks of the SEC were gutted and walls were put up to block investigations.
As a former securities examiner, I can tell that most of the examining time is taken up by idiotic books and record reviews pursuant to SEC Rule 17a-3, SEC Rule 17a-4; FINRA Rule 3010; reporting regulations pursuant to FINRA Rule 3070 and By-Laws Article IV; net capital computations pursuant to SEC Rule 15c3-1; if the firm is a self-clearing broker dealer then the customer protection rule, i.e SEC Rule 15c3-3 and Regulation S-P reviews. It is nearly impossible to find fraud during a routine examination. Usually, fraud investigations stem from either a customer complaint, competiting broker dealer or insider tips. Above all, the SEC, FINRA and other regulators mostly send inexperience examiners and the crooks run circles around them. I forgot the name of the guy that reported Madoff. During his testimony before Congress he made the suggestiont that retired individuals from the securities business should be hired as examiners. You need people who know where the bodies are usually buried to find fraud. This idea that Bush gutted the SEC because conservative have this insane drive to screw people is just baseless.
71 Chekote // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Sorry Typo!
It is FINRA Rule 3110 that addresses books and record. Rule 3010 addresses supervision.
72 EscapeVelocity // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:34 pm
That is of course unless the Census comes into question, and Racist and Union Thugs and Pro Illegal Immigrant La Raza dont show up to “supervise” the polls.
Then you are going to see a reckoning in this country.
73 greg_barton // Sep 5, 2009 at 11:42 pm
I know you think so, ev. Here’s another alternate name for you: escapefromreality.
74 oldgal // Sep 6, 2009 at 9:43 am
From Anniemargret: “I have respect for some Republicans, I am not a rigid ideologue, nor on the far left, no matter how much some on this blog has tried to characterize me.”
Current day politicians and their followers seem to believe that attack and confrontation are the ways to garner votes. One of the reasons Obama got elected was because he appears to treat everyone with respect, even in disagreeing with them. He also speaks to the American public as if we are intelligent adults. It was this behavior that got many of the people I know to pay attention to him and take him seriously.
Conservatives would get a lot farther a lot faster by disagreeing with respect, reasoned discussions, and practical solutions. The same can be said of democrats. I cannot support either party or any candidate unless they demonstrate that they put “what’s good for the country” ahead of “what’s good for the party”.
This country has serious problems to solve and feeding hysteria is like handing an arsonist a match and then interfering with the firefighters.
75 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 10:09 am
oldgal: You said it.
Politics is like a carousel. Just keeps spinning and spinning. What of the most frustrating things that I see is that there are good people in both parties who are trying to break free of the absurdity that keeps partisan politicking going at the expense of betterment of country.
We used to say the Pledge of Allegiance…to honor our country first, not after our political party. I have long thought the two party system was not an effective way to govern, nor to accomplish real life goals. What we have nowadays all over the media and on the Net is arguing for arguments sake.
Nothing is getting accomplished. Human beings are fools. Instead of working together to solve the problems (I guess first you have to acknowledge there IS a problem), they work at each other to reduce the power of the other.
Claims have been made here on this blog that people ‘hated’ Bush. I never ‘hated’ Bush as a person; frankly, he probably as likeable and good-natured as he appears to be. But he was not a good or effective leader, or President. People came to ‘hate’ his policies which pretty much were reflective of the neocon philosophy, which dominated over internal problems affecting everyday Americans (healthcare costs/jobs/failing schools/etc…).
People will ‘hate’ Obama, some for his more liberal policies because their ideology is different, much more because he represents the ‘other’ – a black man (or half black man) who brings out some racist overtones in some people in this country, or because they can’t stand the idea that a more liberal-oriented philosophy won over the more ‘conservative’ philosophy in 08.
Rather than getting a better grasp on what happened and why, conservatives and Republicans are still continuing the same old attack-dog philosophy that put them there in the first place!
In the end, the old adage of ‘pride goeth before a fall” seems apropos to this debate. Neither party ‘wins’ when they spend more time trying to trash the other, than offering up solid, workable, real solutions to real life problems.
ahhh…what the hey….. does anybody here really think we are ‘united’ states anymore? The only way this will happen is when what Reagan said once at the U.N. …that when some advanced race of beings from another planet or universe were to arrive on Planet Earth, we will unite in force, the same way we united in force after 9/11.
Sad that it has to take a horrendous violent event to do this, or a quasi-possible event from outer space!
Chekote: Yes, Charles Krauthammer is an ‘intellect’ – but he was and still is basically subscribes to the neocon philosophy of thought, believing that active intervention in the Middle East will resolve our problems (oil/power/democratization), etc.. He also spends a lot of time bashing every Democratic solution when he can, which doesn’t exactly endear him to me. I never see him debate on CNN or MSNBC, only Fox, which leads me to believe he needs to spend more time with people who differ from him than with people who agree with him from the get-go. Do Republicans EVER think the Democrats can offer up a positive solution, or is it always attack/attack/attack…the party of NO and obstructionism.
This could be a serious problem for the GOP in 2012, no matter how productive or unproductive Obama can create with his efforts.
But should your party have more Krauthammers than Palins and Bachmann’s? Is the Pope Catholic?
76 LFC // Sep 6, 2009 at 10:30 am
Usually, fraud investigations stem from either a customer complaint, competiting broker dealer or insider tips.
Insider information is best. But you need people to follow-up. So why did the SEC drop hundreds of investigators under Bush.
Above all, the SEC, FINRA and other regulators mostly send inexperience examiners and the crooks run circles around them.
Really? So they’ve never nailed anybody when allowed to actually investigate? Isn’t that … interesting.
I forgot the name of the guy that reported Madoff. During his testimony before Congress he made the suggestiont that retired individuals from the securities business should be hired as examiners. You need people who know where the bodies are usually buried to find fraud.
Right. So back to my question as to why the SEC ended up with hundreds fewer investigators under Bush?
This idea that Bush gutted the SEC because conservative have this insane drive to screw people is just baseless.
Investigators. Investigations. Success rate. Interference by Cox in already negotiated settlements. The allowance of the 5 big investment banks to increase leverage from 12-1 to 30-1.
Of course, it could have just been blatant incompetence at a grand level. That would be a good explanation too.
77 Chekote // Sep 6, 2009 at 11:08 am
lfc
You are not interested in learning. You are just interested in blaming Bush for everything under the sun. I personally think that Cox had no clue what he was doing. I don’t believe that SEC Chairman should be a political appointment. I do applaud Obama for at least appointing someone like Mary Shapiro who understands how securities regulation works. Ideally, we should set up a regulatory system which 1) is independent of political influence; 2) reduce the number of regulations by removing unnecessary rules and focus on preventing, dectecting fraud; 3) come up with some sort of system whereby new securities products are reviewed before hitting the markets so that we have a chance to adjust the regulatory system if needed. As things stand now, the regulators are always behind the curve.
78 Chekote // Sep 6, 2009 at 11:12 am
Excellent post oldgal.
79 Kaz // Sep 6, 2009 at 11:48 am
The title of Tanenhaus’ book simply flies in the face of the facts:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/Conservatives-Single-Largest-Ideological-Group.aspx
80 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 12:00 pm
While I certainly wish that the world worked as oldgal wishes it to work. Thta isnt how it works.
The Republicans played it that way for a long time, but it didnt work, the Congress was held by the Democrats for nearly half a century, while the Republicans respectfully disagreed. The country and policy moved farther and father Left.
Instead of Bork and Thomas, we got Borked and the most vile Feminist assault on Clarence Thomas, who still managed to sneak through. While Ginsberg and Breyer were confirmed 90ish to 10, the Republican nominations were excoriated and the Democrats did not reciprocate. Leading to Alito…now the Republicans almost finally get it, with Sotomayors vote plunging.
So you can see that what you are really proposing oldgal, is that Republicans act in a respectful manner, while the Democrat New Leftists push their radical agenda anyway they see fit, because if only one party is acting up, then the country is much calmer and people move towards the Democrats as their time in controlling Congress and government is much more peaceful. People move away from unpleasantness. Thus we have the political environment created by the New Left Democrats and finally reacted to by the Republicans (the reactionaries to the revolutionary socialists).
If you would like all this to stop, your anger should be with the Left, because they are driving the atmosphere, they are driving for change, they are pushing and shoving, they are setting the agenda, they have developed the tactics, they are following Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and a host of other Leftwing tactics to get their agenda enacted as the establishment.
Now taking your post back into consideration, we can see that your primarily excoriating the Republican Party, and then give a perfunctory nod that the Democrats shouldnt do it either. Well, if you dont want the Republicans to do it, then I suggest you punish the Democrats severely for continuing to use those tactics. Until then, its meaningless.
81 Chekote // Sep 6, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I just check out RedState in a long time. They are attacking Meg Whitman and Carly Fiorina. One would think that the GOP would be happy to have such successful, knowledgeable women. They represent the vast majority of professional women. Instead, the women heralded by the GOP are Michelle “Minnesota Loon” Bachmann and Sarah “Lameduck” Palin.
82 agentprovocateur // Sep 6, 2009 at 1:05 pm
“While Ginsberg and Breyer were confirmed 90ish to 10, the Republican nominations were excoriated and the Democrats did not reciprocate.”
Another lie from escapefromreality, as Scalia was confirmed 98-0 and Kennedy was confirmed 97-0. Even Roberts was confirmed 78-22. I notice that people like Bachmann and Palin are rightly criticized around here. Escapevelocity’s views don’t seem to be too far removed from theirs, with his/her talk of the “socialist” left or how gay marriage will help to “destroy” Western Civilization. These kinds of ideas are certainly no way to gain a majority, new or otherwise.
83 sdspringy // Sep 6, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Individuals like Annie or Oldgal seem ignorant of policy. When Bush proposed the surge for Iraq, where was the Dem support. None, all criticism and insult. Obama proposed a surge for Afghan, no complaints, just muted silence.
Maybe Bush never wanted to get involved in Afghan, because when do you leave? The Dems continually wanted to fight there, but now watch them run away as fast a possible.
Obama keeps the provisions of the Patriot Act, hated under Bush, muted silence now.
Obama during the campaign ridicules the use of Predator strikes under Bush, yet increases them when he is in office.
Over 30 Czars outside the influence of legislative oversight, muted silence.
Obama wants people to report their emails to the White House that criticize ObamaCare.
Obama wants to ask our school kids to pledge service to their public offcials.
And my personal favorite, now Obama will fly the People’s Republic of China’s flag on the grounds of the White House. Communists flag on the grounds of the White House, this man is completely nuts.
84 brandon // Sep 6, 2009 at 2:35 pm
anniemargret wrote about Christopher Buckley: “He was virtually booted out because he wasn’t extreme enough for the party, right?”
No, he was “virtually booted out” for advocating that a one term senator from Illinois who had no accomplishments, no experience governing or running a business should be made the leader of the free world because he appeared to Buckley to have a “first-class temperament and a first-class intellect.”
Anyone who supported and endorsed Obama in 2008 deserves to be booted out of the “conservative movement” and that includes David Brooks, Peggy Noonan, Kathleen Parker and unfortunately Christopher Buckley.
Thinking that Obama could possibly be the right choice for president is proof that one just doesn’t “get it” when it comes to conservative principles and the concepts espoused by Russell Kirk, Ronald Reagan, William F. Buckley etc.
While they may come across as and may be uneducated and uncouth, the Sarah Palins, Becks, Limbaughs, and Coulters do stand for basic conservative values.
How can you expect the “average joe” to endear themselves to the “educated conservatives” when you have Peggy Noonan saying about Obama: “he shows good judgment in terms of whom to hire and consult, what steps to take and moves to make” or David Brooks: “I was looking at his pant leg and his perfectly creased pant, and I’m thinking, a) he’s going to be president and b) he’ll be a very good president.”
At least the Hannitys of the world had enough common sense not to drink the Kool Aid.
85 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Well said Brandon.
86 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 2:57 pm
sdspringy: Where is it written that an American, despite party affiliation, cannot or should not change their mind with the changing circumstances? Why this affinity to believe that people with common sense – despite their ideological preferences politically- can go with the flow?
Don’t people change their minds when situations change? Life is not static. Neither should politics. What is the right thing to do in 2001 might not be the right thing to do in 2009. Columnist Andrew Sullivan apologized for his initial support of the war in Iraq, after information was revealed that changed his mind. I would say that is called moral courage.
I was not silent about Afghanistan, so I can only answer to your comment myself. I am not in favor of the surge there, and expressed it so earlier. I voted for Obama and he is my president but I don’t have to agree with everything he says or does. My conscience tells me what is right or wrong, and I go with it, or until I am convinced from outright evidence to the contrary.
The Dems never continually wanted to fight there. The Dems were on board with Bush after 9/11 to find Bin laden and dismantle or declaw the terorrists. It has always been most Democrats contention that we should have stayed from the get-go and got the job done there, before Bush diverted funds to Iraq.
As President, Obama has to make the case for his healthcare reform and refute the deliberate and dangerous lies that has been spewing forth from the GOP on this serious issue. Because there are senior citizens in this country that actually believe their President would arrange to have ‘death squads’ says it all. That the opposition has used the most blatant and egregious attacks on his character, such as aligning him to Hitler or some alien species…. I don’t blame him in the least. Enough already. Those attacks are not policy attacks, they were ad hominem attacks, of the most vicious kind.
Is this what you are talking about?
“A school principal has apologized for showing a video at an assembly that a politically conservative group leader is calling “radical, leftist propaganda.”
from http://www.weaselzippers.com “Children at Eagle Bay Elementary School in Farmington were shown a short video called “I pledge” on Aug. 28. The video opens with an image of President Barack Obama and part of a speech in which he says, “Let us summon a new spirit of patriotism, of responsibility where each of us resolves to pitch in and work harder and look after not only ourselves but each other.” The video then features celebrities making pledges about how they will help the president and the world — and that’s where some say the problem lies.
Ooooh….scary scary…..
But how bout this one? ““We want to make your future better, because tomorrow belongs to you. And since you’re the leaders of tomorrow, I wanted to talk to all of you as a friend about the things you’ll have to do to ensure a prosperous nation and a peaceful world.” – It was President Ronald Reagan, back in 1986. President Reagan’s speech was intended as a commencement address of sorts for graduating seniors across the country. It was broadcast in schools nationwide on TV and radio. (Charlotte Observer, 9/5/09)
87 sdspringy // Sep 6, 2009 at 3:35 pm
And my point on Afghan is the Dems only wanted to fight in Afghan because we were in Iraq. Now that we are in Afghan watch the Dems run from that fight. How long before Reid stands in the Senate and states this war is lost, and we can’t win this fight. These are the same Dems that voted for the war before they voted against it.
Andrew Sullivan is also foolish to assume that once the fight began you can back out with an “excuse me, never mind”.
Obama has a problem with the “death panel” because his advisors have publicly stated that the use of limited medical funding would be better spend with a greater return if used on younger people than older people.
As far as attacks on person instead of policy, how about Van Jones calling the previous President a “crack addict licking a crack pipe”. That is a active member, or once was, of the administration not a private person.
And the problem I have about the school speech is that public servants, such as Obama , state an oath to us, our Constitution. We don’t pledge oaths to the president, unless you are a clueless Hollywood actor. They serve us, not the other way around. Reagen did not require a pledge to himself. We pledge allegiance to the country and the principle for which IT stands, not the President.
This is why more Americans are having a problem concerning Obama. The idea that we serve Them, They know what is best for us.
88 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Couldnt agree more sdspringy. You see clearly. The last paragraph is particularly well stated.
Hitler Youth pledged to help Hitler. The German Military pledge was changed from pledgin allegience to the German Constitution to Hitler.
These things matter. Either the Obama administration is so full of non intellectual idiots, or they know full well what they are doing. Probably a mix of the 2, and neither is flattering.
89 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 3:57 pm
sdspringy: Dems ‘only wanted to fight in Afghanistan because we were in Iraq? ‘
Wrong. http://icue.nbcunifiles.com/icue/files/icue/site/pdf/5012.pdf
And it is the Dems that are ‘running’ from Afghanistan? You mean as in ‘cut and run?’ You mean George Will is a cut and runner? That there are other Republicans having serious doubts about the wisdom of prolonging it? Are you saying that once a war starts going, no matter how badly it goes, no matter how much damage it does to our military or financial costs, no matter if the aim of ‘winning’ appears nonexistent, then we should just all stay? And that if you are Democrat, and say this, you are a weenie, but if a Republican says this, it’s OK?
Who’s playing politics here?
Van Jones is an idiot.
I don’t have a problem with ANY POTUS speaking to children, high school kids, or college kids about being good Americans and helping America in any way we can.
I AGREE with you that having a bunch of celebrities use a pledge was a bad idea. And yes, I agree with you that our allegiance is to our country, but we also all agreed with Reagan and we also agreed with Kennedy, when he said his famous, ‘…ask not what your country can do for you…” speech.
Yes, nuance counts. I also don’t think Obama has made a good passionate case for healthcare reform.
Every President in U.S. History thinks they know what’s best for America. And depending on their party affiliation they typically will describe what they think is best according to the ideology of their party. Smart presidents try to understand and include the other side of the argument. There are millions of people, must to your dismay I would think, that mostly think he is making the right arguments…after all, we voted for him. I would also venture to say you probably voted for Bush and Cheney, and you probably think their desires was ‘best for the country’ but the rest of us did not think so .
I think the whole thing is called democratic elections. And may the best team win.
90 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Its more than about democracy and elections.
Its about freedom and liberty.
Without which democracy and elections are a farce.
91 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:07 pm
brandon:
That, and the last president conservatives voted in, just confirms to me that ya’ll think a president should NOT have “first-class temperament and a first-class intellect.”
Sad, but apparently true.
92 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:08 pm
You mean we no longer have freedom and liberty? When someone strong-arms me going into that voting booth, or threatens me with imprisonment for voting my conscience, I will join you in that opinion.
93 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:10 pm
brandon:
So you can be stupid, incompetant, and perfectly willing to destroy our reputation around the world and our economy, as long as you believe the right things.
Yep, sounds about right.
94 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:10 pm
There are a plethora of examples, but lets just take one that is being employed by the Left in this country and Western Countries in general.
Mass immigration.
In order to maintain power, you import voters, and dole out wealth re distribution to them.
Youve certainly won the election, but youve actually disempowered teh voice of the citizens, and furthermore instituted divisive racist tribalism in the process.
This is Leftwing politics, and its destroying Western Civilization…on all fronts.
95 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:11 pm
escapefromsanity, I would expect no less.
96 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:13 pm
sdspringy:
So George Will is a Democrat now?
97 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Stalin had a first class temperment and first class intellect.
The problem lay elsewhere.
See your mistake?
98 rbottoms // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Remember, nothing is more frightening that government run health care:
99 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:17 pm
sdspringy:
Tell that to the former members of the Bush administration. They didn’t get the memo.
100 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:20 pm
I am beginning to think more and more that the election of Barack Obama as President signifies to some conservatives and Republicans that somehow their government was ‘taken over’ by some nefarious ‘other’ of some nefarious political stripe, and it is so sticking in their craw, that they cannot stem the venom from pouring out. Even if proven wrong, they want to believe it so badly, that no semblance of Truth will ever change their mind.
Bad form. It used to be called, ’sore losers.’
He is a liberal/progressive, not a rabid ’socialist’ trying to dismantle capitalism. We have had social programs for decades, which have immensely helped Americans. There are corporatists and investment bankers that probably were hippies back in the 60s and now wear Brooks Brothers suits. There are Democrats fighting wars and join the military and there are Democrats that believe in God and go to church.
If you are unhappy with the election of the Democrats over the Republicans then your party has to work harder to win the next election. The Democrats had to do the same thing after Clinton’s bungling and Kerry lost. They will actually have to come up with some positive policy decision that would benefit America and Americans, instead of spending inordinate amount of time tearing Obama to shreds every time he opens his mouth.
101 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:20 pm
I’ve got to hand it to you guys, you’re very good, and quite persistent, at painting your opponents with your own behavior. Bush administration members have said under oath, on several occasions, that their oath was to Bush directly. That just doesn’t seem to phase you at all, though. You just go right ahead and paint the Obama administration with the same brush, with absolutely no proof. Seriously, you guys are masters at turning a meme around to use it for your own purposes. Bravo.
102 rbottoms // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Remember, we must at all costs make sure the insurance industry is accommodated because they always have our best interests at heart. Bastards.
No comment yet from John McCain.
Tell me once again how the free market is always the best solution, that the invisible hand will keep businessmen honest and true.
103 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:23 pm
anniemargret, the only reason conservatives are so upset about Obama addressing school children is that the last time Bush did it he was reading “My Pet Goat.”
104 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:24 pm
greg_barton: hee.
105 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:25 pm
escapefromfacts:
Wait….weren’t the last two great proponents of imigration reform…George W Bush and John McCain?
106 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Stalin started out as a Catholic priest.
See your mistake?
107 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:30 pm
You are correct, and the Left did not oppose it one iota. They out Bush’d Bush, and out McCain’d McCain.
The Left now pandered to the Hispanics with the racist Sotomayor, and painting opposition to racists as itself racist and xenophobic (funny how opposition ot Estrada wasnt racist, heh?), are going to seal the deal with Shamnesty. That should help in the coming elections.
There is nothing new here. Its being done in Europe as well. The Islamic immigrants vote in the range of 90 percent for the open borders mass immigration multi cultural Western Left.
108 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Name calling, the last refuse of those who are not supported by the facts and thus have no argument to make.
Clearly you have a set of myths, fallacies, and falsehoods that you hold as your truth. This is the reason for the assault on logic and truth by the 60s radicals in the philosophical halls. Truth was personalized, objective reality doesnt exist. This assault on fact, reason, and logic was necessary to advance the revolution.
What we got was Leftwing radicalism and Post Modern mumbo jumbo….subjective reality. The battle became the control of media and education, revisionist history in order to change the “false consciousness” not into reality, but into different “false consciousness” one that supports the Leftwing agenda.
These things are not deniable, they happened.
109 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:30 pm
rbottoms: I would much prefer that John McCain, DeMint, Palin and other conservatives/Republicans just come out and say plainly, that they don’t give a R.A. for anyone else other than their own families.
McCain has had solid gold-plated healthcare all his life, being he has come from a military family, and even if he hadn’t, his money would keep his children and grandchildren safe from the type of sad scenario you describe above, as well as his status as Senator. What can he or other know or understand the plight of those not as fortunate? They do not live in the real world.
I invite you all to visit Andrew Sullivan’s site which has been running true cases of some of the horrors ordinary working Americans are going through during this healthcare debate. They are entitled, “The View From Your Sickbed.”
And then they can make their argument why healthcare reform is not needed.
110 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Immigration reform was passed by the GOP House in late 2005, too bad it was sidetracked by McCain and Graham and their Democrat allies in the Senate.
111 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Maybe you should boycott Whole Foods?
LOL!
112 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Healthcare reform is a ‘leftwing agenda.” wow.
113 sinz54 // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:46 pm
rbottoms:
What are you talking about???
In the example you cited, it was that gentleman’s EMPLOYER (an airplane parts manufacturer) who canceled his health insurance; not his insurer. His insurer didn’t walk away, his employer did. Most likely as part of outright fraud:
That type of fraud is just as likely (if not even more likely) with a government-run public plan as with a private plan. Because any “public option” is going to exist alongside private plans. The premiums will be collected by the employer. It’s just that the employer will then pass those on to the government instead of to a private company.
And BTW: Barack Obama has announced he wants to spend up to $100 million to root out “waste, fraud and abuse” from Medicare. Why would he do that, if Medicare’s finances were pure as the driven snow? (Because they’re not.)
114 sinz54 // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:49 pm
anniemargaret sez:
That’s not what we conservatives believe.
What we believe, is that we don’t want to use the power of government to force Mr. Smith to help Mr. Jones. If we care about Mr. Jones’ predicament, we’ll help him ourselves. That’s why there is so much voluntary charitable giving to United Way, Catholic Charities, the Muscular Dystrophy telethon, etc.
But we conservatives don’t want to pass a law saying that you MUST contribute to Muscular Dystrophy or else the IRS will come after you.
There’s a big difference between you helping someone you care about–versus you forcing total strangers to help those you personally care about.
115 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Nah, name calling is the first refuse of those who know argument is pointless when you’re talking with someone who has little grasp on reality.
I wasn’t even born in the 60’s, d00d. Nice try. My preferred approach to reality is empiricism. Both sides (most sides) of the political spectrum have only a tenuous grasp on fact, reason, and logic.
I make no claim that the left has a perfect grip on logic and correct thinking. I might be politically left leaning, but I am a big proponent of nuclear energy. The environmentalist wing of the left is particularly galling to me as a result, and the idealistic clinging of the rest of the left to flawed modes of energy production is irritating. Unfortunately the right wing isn’t much better, as they cling to methods of energy production that are both environmentally and politically disastrous. So stupidity abounds. You just apparently think it’s only concentrated on the other side.
116 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:52 pm
escapevelocity, reality is subjective. Prove otherwise.
117 sinz54 // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:55 pm
escapevelocity:
And Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. Yeah, right.
Listen, a lot of us saw the immigration debate in 2007, televised live on C-SPAN. We saw where Bush stood on the issue. Bush always wanted a guest worker program and a path to citizenship for illegal aliens. Almost at once, the nativist right, led by Michelle Malkin, rose up–and that was the end of that. She scared the pants off the Senate Republicans, and one by one they opposed the bill.
The dirty little secret is that American business thrives off of illegal aliens. I used to do a lot of traveling on business, and I got to see who made up my hotel rooms at Ramada Inn and Holiday Inn. I had to bring a Spanish phrase book just to communicate with my maid. Not to mention ADM and the rest of agribusiness.
You can’t ever close the border without massively increasing food prices and hotel room rates. And that’s why immigration reform failed: The American people won’t accept anything less than border enforcement first (as Rasmussen noted in 2007), but they don’t understand that it’s illegal aliens that help hold down prices.
118 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 4:57 pm
escapevelocity:
Hah! What a simplistic view you have. You describe a massive yet nebulous social movement to control consciousness as undeniable! Next you’ll be quoting Jung: the undeniable collective unconsciousness!
119 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 5:01 pm
sinz54
I say it’s less likely.
Prove me wrong.
120 rbottoms // Sep 6, 2009 at 5:10 pm
It’s not a hypothetical Mr. Jones, it was a very real Richard Hoy, very likely dead prematurely because a greedy profit hungry company decided to save a few pennies by canceling coverage and by Blue Cross looking to save money again by making the cancellation retroactive.
Under your scenario Mrs. Hoy should have promptly begun begging for charity at the nearest church for the thousands of dollars needed to continue treating her husband.
Incidentally, this is not a what if scenario to me. My previous employer canceled their coverage of its workers with no notice deciding to simply not make its July payment to the benefits management firm handling our coverage. I had surgery scheduled for October which has now been moved to January because of these bastards.
Americans since simply not be held hostage to the whims of greedy businessmen as to whether they lie or die or go broke due to illness. And the holy grail of MSA’s would have been useless, offering up $5,000 towards a $150,000+ bit of medical care.
I actually count myself lucky to have my barely affordable my COBRA plan now, but for almost two months I was uninsured. Guess I should have gone out and begging as well.
121 brandon // Sep 6, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Greg,
The fact that Bush was a disappointment as president does not negate the fact that Obama is too inexperienced to hold the office and that anyone who advocated him as a candidate should have no credibility with conservatives.
It also has zero to do with my point which is that many of the so called “intellectual conservatives” fell for the Obama cult of personality without examining his record.
There was absolutely no concrete evidence in 2008 that Obama had a first class temperment or intellect. These so called “intellectuals” got tingles in their legs over a man who can give a good speech with a teleprompter.
I’ll take the advice of someone with common sense over David Brooks talking about the crease in another man’s pants any day.
122 txanne // Sep 6, 2009 at 5:19 pm
sdspringy // Sep 6, 2009 at 3:35 pm
“Obama has a problem with the “death panel” because his advisors have publicly stated that the use of limited medical funding would be better spend with a greater return if used on younger people than older people.”
This is just not true. If you are talking about Emanuel, he never said anything of the kind. It was an academic discussion about extremely limited “resources” such as organ transplants. He has also come out strongly against euthanasia.
The Glenn Becks of the world also like to attack Dr Holdren as well, by claiming he is for spiking the water with birth control agents! This is due to misrepresenting his position in a book he co-wrote in the 1970s when population control was a major are of concern. How dare he discuss it? In discussing all the different methods used or proposed at the time, he concluded none were morally acceptable.
The far right has foolishly co-opted the position of head in the sand. Bioethics are not to be discussed; see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Unfortunately the republican party has sided with the far right as they use academic discussion as a weapon against good men.
123 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Yeah, back in the 70s when that kind of thing was mainstream and rational!
LOL!
Pay no attention to what the Leftwing radicals print in their books, say in their speeches and videos, they dont mean them.
What a hoot!
You mean population control is no longer a major concern?
Get it straight man! Get it straight!
Conservatives have sided against eugenicists and would be Stalinists. That is not a head in the sand position, its fighting and opposing evil.
Lets have an accademic discussion where you venerate Margaret Sanger and Eugenics, and I discredit it, and call attention to the Nazis who advocated the same positions…..and then you get upset and call me a whacko lunatic who is anti intellectual. After about 30 years of that….I dont want to have that discussion anymore….you just fight Hitler at that point.
124 txanne // Sep 6, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Yes population is still a major concern, but in the 70s it was confronted and discussed. It still doesnt make it right to distort what Dr Holdren said, or concluded. It doesnt make it right to take snippits out of context.
I do not venerate Eugenics and I dont know anyone who does. I guess any reasonable discussion is out of the question. Problems will go un-talked about, because it is dangerous to even discuss things that you dont agree with, but have been tried in other societies. Its not okay to look at solutions and why they didn’t/couldn’t work. Because if you even so much as write about it in that context, you will be smeared.
125 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Yes in the 70s it was discussed and crazy people like Holdren advocated forced sterilization, putting birth control drugs in teh water supply (perhaps clandestinely) and classic Hitlerian Sanger Eugenics for poor people and lessor races.
Hitlers Science Minister is now the Science Czar in the White House.
And we should be having rational discussions with these people?
Youve got to be kidding!
126 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Should we contemplate Hitler’s Social Security Policy? No, you fight Hitler. — Evan Sayet
127 txanne // Sep 6, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Really you need to gather your news from other sources than Fox.
He did NOT advocate those methods.
128 sdspringy // Sep 6, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Greg, your reference to Salon and use of it’s material in a New Majority forum seems, somewhat odd.
Obviously not conservative, nor interested in conservative issues, and using a slanted reference materials makes me wonder why you take the time. I do not read Salon or DailyKos, nor do I post there. Their minds will not be change and I have better things to do with my time.
Yet hear you are, seemingly enjoying handing out slights and insults, when you have no stake in conservatism or any belief in it’s principles. Which makes you appear rather small and malicious. Commets about Bush or Stalin as a Catholic priest, really what is your point?
Left has been ridiculing Bush for 8 years and now continues though he has no stake or input in the issues. And the Left now doesn’t like referenced to Hilter where Obama is concerned by loved the Bush picture with the Hilter mustache or even better the one of Bush as a monkey.
If you scroll up the issue is conservatism. Not how Obama is being treated, nor why the Dems won’t support his healthcare legislation.
129 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Yes, the Left is full of nebulous ponderings and advocations, which all lead to the same things, in slightly different forms, mass murder, oppression, the totalitarian state.
But lets not have intellectual discussions about that! Lets scream McCarthyite (and McCarthy was a patriot who did this country a great favor and was castigated adn villified for it for decades and continuing). Shut down debate, and move the Leftist agenda forward!
As if any of this is controversial. Only in a Leftwingers vibrant immagination.
130 Cforchange // Sep 6, 2009 at 6:15 pm
How did we go from Buckley to Beck – simple. We are in hard times – have been for 20 years. Dem’s are or appear to be more helpful when times are tough. Plus women just will not have any part of the Rushbo fest. The only reason the intolerable geeks like escaper hang in there because of the religious mission they are on – drop the life platform and we will be rid of them in a flash. Double dare.
Next issue, noise about the president addressing school students – it’s race. Objector’s do not want their children getting used to seeing a black president – they don’t want their children forming a respectful impression of this black president.
If the GOP had some balls, they’d find respect and a landslide of new members coming back from the Independent status. If the GOP had policies that encouraged new businesses to form and succeed, we would be a growing party. But remember we are the party wagging a finger at the GOP’s defined immorality at a time when the vast population is deeply concerned about their faltering prosperity. This has been the case for 20 plus years for that big blue belt of 2008 voters that started in New England and then wrapped itself around the Great Lakes and continued way west.
Last fall when Palin addressed my community – she had breaking news about what she would do for children like her Trig. Tell me do you think that was want Western PA wanted to hear? Our message is ridiculous. It’s so out of synch with reality – at least for those trying to operate in reality which is the sane majority.
131 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 6:19 pm
No that just wasnt a crazy whacko from the 70s…..its still a viable solution on the Left.
Eco-Extremist Wants World Population to Drop below 1 Billion
Sea Shepherd founder says mankind is a ‘virus’ and we need to ‘re-wild the planet.’
http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2007/20070506180903.aspx
The Beginning of the End for Life as We Know it on Planet Earth?
There is a Biocentric Solution.
Commentary by Paul Watson
Founder and President of Sea Shepherd Conservation Society
http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/editorial-070504-1.html
excerpt…
We need an economic system that provides all people with educational, medical, security, and support systems without mass production and vast utilization of resources. This will only work within the context of a much smaller global population.
Who should have children? Those who are responsible and completely dedicated to the responsibility which is actually a very small percentage of humans.
————
Intellectual Leftists working on their social engineering schemes to deny human rights and control individuals via the totalitarian state. Say it isnt so!
132 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Next issue, noise about the president addressing school students – it’s race. Objector’s do not want their children getting used to seeing a black president – they don’t want their children forming a respectful impression of this black president. — Cforchange
Yes, because the only reason that someone could be opposed to having children pledge themselves to President Obama, is race.
That is exactly the level of discourse that has brought this country to such polarization. You can oppose a Leftwinger without being a sexist racist homophobe hater with greedy imperialist capitalist oppresssion as your ultimate goal.
And that in a nutshell, is why the Democrats and the Left arent worth trying to have a rational discussion with. They are beyond it. There is nothing to say, to your a McCarthyite, Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, Hater. There is only gloves off full scale total political war.
A situation caused by the Left, not by Conservatives.
133 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 6:26 pm
The reason why the Blue Belt is losing jobs is because of Leftwing, lawmaking, regulation and lawsuits. Advocating more taxation isnt going to bring jobs back, its going to drive capital and businesses away, and furthermore drive entrepanuers away.
The Left is an amalgamation of complete lunatics and morons, with nonsensical solutions to real problems that only make the problems worse and lead in one long march to the totalitarian state.
134 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 6:29 pm
I welcome moderates and independents to drive out the lunatics in the Democrat Party, so that we can have sane policy debates in this country again. The problem is not the Conservatives, the Problem is the New Left Radical which have been on a religious crusade for 40 years in this country.
To assert that Conservatives are the problem is the same as asserting that the United States was the Problem and not the Soviet Union for the Cold War. Its lunacy.
135 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 7:40 pm
escapevelocity: A religious crusade from the left? Good grief. Get a grip. The Religious Right has never been more vocal than now. It is their ‘crusade’ to crush separation of church and state and why it was pushed back that they got criticism. As I said before, no one is stopping anyone anytime from voting their conscience, nor going to church, or praying to God. This is a hyperbole at its worst kind.
And one more question….all your rants and hate are spewing on to the ‘left’ – do you think, at all, that the right, or Republicans, have always done the right thing for this country. It is that simple to you…to blame all our problems on the ‘radical left’??
136 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 7:40 pm
sinz54: “There’s a big difference between you helping someone you care about–versus you forcing total strangers to help those you personally care about.”
Sinz, all I can say is that comparing universal healthcare which the majority of industrialized nations are already doing, because it is a *basic* decent right to have adequate healthcare, cannot be compared to donating to Muscular Dystrophy. I couldn’t disagree with this philosophy more. Americans in dire need of healthcare should not have to have bake sales or go begging for help. I lived without healthcare for a year after my divorce and my oldest son is now without. If you haven’t been there, you simply cannot understand. Too harsh a view for me, but you are entitled.
txanne: You are correct. Problems will go on and on. Attacks on the left and right will go on and on. It is not who is solving the problem anymore, it is how often and how well the right or the left can attack the other side.
cforchange: A very honest assessment. A lot of the scare-mongering going on now about Obama are not stemming from policy disagreements but outright hatred of him..and yes, there is a deep antipathy to his being a black man in a powerful position. This country has a LONG way to go yet. That Beck would call him a ‘racist’ when Obamas own mother was a white woman and his grandparents who raised him were white, reveals their mindset. Many people homeschooling their children nowadays do so not just because some schools are failing, it is because they would be horrified to have their children be around minorities or anyone else who might force them to think outside their comfort zone.
137 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Many people homeschooling their children nowadays do so not just because some schools are failing, it is because they would be horrified to have their children be around minorities or anyone else who might force them to think outside their comfort zone. — anniemargaret
Its that kind of delusional paranoia (at best) that is dividing this country.
Keep spewing hate, the villification of an entire race of people for 50 years is bound to actually have people believing as Susan Sontag…
it’s the white race that’s the cancer of human history – Susan Sontag
Aftern the minoritization of European Cacasians around the world, they will become the new Jews, perhaps even with a Final Solution instituted. And teh Western Left will have set the whole thing up with their social engineering and decades of demonization.
It seems outrageous, but its certainly in the realm of possibility. This demonization of Western Conservatives and their culture has got to stop.
138 brandon // Sep 6, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Annie,
Do you really believe that a significant amount of the opposition to Obama is based on the fact that he identifies as an African American?
Most people who homeschool do so for religious reasons or because the schools in their districts are horrible or unsafe.
While there will always be racists among us, their numbers are very small.
139 greg_barton // Sep 6, 2009 at 9:30 pm
sdspringy, are you talking about me using salon as a source? If so you’re mistaken. And ev brought up Stalin. You’ll have to ask him/her what the point is, if one exists.
140 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 9:35 pm
brandon: I hope you are correct about homeschoolers. But I think there are definitely some who are deeply frightened at having their children around anyone with a different religious viewpoint, or cultural background. But again…I hope you are right, and I hope I am wrong.
141 Chekote // Sep 6, 2009 at 9:43 pm
The only reason the intolerable geeks like escaper hang in there because of the religious mission they are on – drop the life platform and we will be rid of them in a flash. Double dare.
Amen. And yes, double dare.
142 EscapeVelocity // Sep 6, 2009 at 9:47 pm
In fact the racists can mainly be found in minority groups, who have been demagoged by the Left into not embracing universal values but into racist and groupist fiefdoms, peeled off from the majority for political purposes to gain power.
One can see the racism in Sotomayors comments, which if any WASP had said similar…
Or in Rev. Wrights…
Or in the latest racist comments from professors at Clark university about supporting the dark skinned Democrat over the white skinned…
And teh list goes on and on…
Van Jones
Cynthia McKinney
Sheila Jackson Lee
Here is Robert Reich….in 2009….
Lou Dobbs on Robert Riech “No White Construction Workers”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duQDVTczGbA
Its pretty clear who the racists are. Straight up classic racism….the power structure treating people differently on the basis of race (and sex).
143 Chekote // Sep 6, 2009 at 9:48 pm
This is so useless. I mean this P—-g contest about who is the most racist.
144 anniemargret // Sep 6, 2009 at 9:50 pm
escape: I am not spreading….’villification of an entire race of people…” what in heaven’s name are you talking about?
Susan Sontag? Final Solution? “demonization of the Western conservatives” ?
If anything, the Bush era demonized all liberals or liberal-thinkers painting them as Godless, clueless, immoral, ‘un-American’ ‘unpatriotic’ creeps.
It seems you are thrusting every conceivable extremist view or person you can find, or grabbing headlines from the 60s’ and applying it to every person you e-meet or chat with to bash them on the head with.
Of course there were extremists then, and now. They are on BOTH sides, escape. And no matter what side they are on, extremism is always unproductive.
145 BoolaBoola // Sep 6, 2009 at 10:52 pm
This will sound like heresy to DF but I think the problem started with Ronald Reagan. He was the first to really use TV the way FDR used home-radio, with specialized attention to the subtleties of the medium, to the opportunities to manipulate the audiences emotionally through it. His people also mastered the new computer-driven media (mailing-lists etc) and benefitted accordingly. The conception of the Republican Presidency as primarily a media-project became the norm in the GOP. That was when the CONTENT of the ideas became secondary, and the propaganda-effects became primary. Nixon had chosen Agnew in order to cynically propagandize to the family-voters; in 1980 that function was elevated to the top of the ticket.
I see the current state of the GOP–openly run by formerly-fringe right-wing media insiders for their own profit, willing to repeat any nonsense in order to boost the enthusiasm of the base, at any cost, no longer even pretending that what they say has anything to do with what they do–as the natural culmination of the 1980s Reaganist GOP.
Running an actor–THAT’S where you went wrong.
146 Addie // Sep 6, 2009 at 11:40 pm
First – anniemargret, are you a paid lefty troll? I mean you have been posting on this blog nonstop all day. The other reason would be you have no life. My guess is you are a paid troll spreading the liberal gospel. Your life can’t be that pathetic can it?
The problem with the republican party are the rhinos! Republicans need to go back to their core values and small government! The problem McCain didn’t win is because McCain was a rhino. Palin was the one who brought in the voters! She attracted thousands to rallies across the country and didn’t need big named bands like Obama did. Ya think Obama could get 60,000 people without Springstein? Doubt it! Obama = ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Obama puts me to sleep!
As far as healthcare, everyone already has access to free healthcare – just walk into any hospital! Government screws up everything it touches! They can’t even run Cash for Clunkers and you think they can get national healthcare right? They can’t even get medicare and medicaid right – it’s so corrupt with massive waste – why doesn’t the government fix the problems in Medicare and Medicaid before tackling national healthcare!
147 Mickster // Sep 6, 2009 at 11:57 pm
To Sinz post #2:
You asked another poster: “Did your 84 year old mother have a problem with all the liberals and antiwar protesters who were smearing Bush as Hitler?”
Comparing the hatred for Bush to the Hatred for Obama not fair.
After 9/11, Bush’s approval rating was at 90%. The entire country was behind him. Certainly the Left tried to derail Iraq, but they failed. Bush was inarguably allowed to succeed for fail based on his own performance. George W. Bush EARNED his hatred.
The same can not be said for the hatred being lobbed at Barack Obama. He has been targeted since before day 1 of his presidency. The biggest names in the Republican party have – for months – loudly and proudly crowed about their intentions to bring down, to destroy, his presidency. He has NOT been given the same chance that Bush has by the opposition.
As for your charming URL: http://tinyurl.com/kufppk , I see that elicited 1.9 million hits. Since you like comparisons so much, did you try it with Obama’s name? I did. Care to guess how many hits that generated? After only his first 9 months in office? Go ahead – click it and see: http://tiny.cc/DyQKd
148 Mickster // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:00 am
Sorry – make that Sinz 54 post #3.
149 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:02 am
addie // Sep 6, 2009 at 11:40 pm
annie has been a regular poster her for a while. She is not a troll. Her contributions are valuable even if I disagree with her. And please take your RINO baloney somewhere else. The last thing the GOP or conservatives need is another site with troll, RINO being posted 50 zillion times a day.
Palin is an uninformed, unstable, inarticulate idiot. If she is the dream candidate of the base. Then there is something wrong with the GOP and they better find a new base ASAP.
150 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:03 am
AnnieMargaret, so I am opposing the extremists on the Left, which have control of the Democrat Party.
Any reactionary extremists on the Right will be nullified by removing the Leftwing Extremists from the table and sidelining them throughout institutions, including the Universities.
Attacking the Right isnt productive.
I note that someone here has called me a geek (appararently for being too well informed and making solid intellectual arguments with facts). You have effectly lost the argument….by taking an anti intellectual position. Rather humorous.
Furthermore, its clear that the Left has had a long standing code….no enemies on the Left. This is not conjecture, this is reality. The Right however has continuously held their own to account (Alinsky Principle – hold them to their own principles – addendum while not having any principles yourself in your move to acquire power).
Its the Left that has to clean out its skeletons, not the right. There has been no broad movement on teh Left to apologize for 40 years of totalitarian apologia, to recognize the error and deligitimize that grievous error….why? Because the Left will not face down its illusions, because to do so is to destroy the faith, and thus the cause. The pushback would be enormous, because teh Left is unrecontructed, they are not apologetic, nor ashamed, they have no desire for reflection….they have a belief system and that will continue to believe and moe towards their religious goals.
I have fully denounced racists on the Right, and ran them right out of the party when need be. No such thing has happened on the Left. Racists are mainstream in the Left coalition.
You pay lip service to being anti extremist, yet your actions on teh Left speak for themselves.
The Left brought political discourse to the level of slandering Clarence Thomas with lies and false charges of Sexual Harrassment, and continues to this day to deny that they did anything nefarious, radical, or detrimental to civil discourse in this country with that low down dastardly attack.
They radicals on the Left are in charge, and their will be no denouncing them, and their will be no reflection on the stances they took and the death and destructiveness that they have caused…..its forward toward the Brave New World.
This is the reality of the situation.
This is similar to the Harry’s Place crowd, who are virulently anti BNP. Well, if you are serious about disempowering the rising support for the BNP, you can ditch multiculturalism, mass immigration (especially of Muslims) and support non tribalist policies, where everyone is treated equally. Its really quite simple. Its much easier just to bash the BNP and its growing support, and pat yourself on teh back and feel superior about yourself. But the BNP will continue to grow, because of real grievances among the indigenous English and British Islanders. Shouting them down does nothing. They are the response to the Lefts policies which have persued tribalism and social engineering over liberty and equality for all. But anybody that opposes that is a “racist.” The Tories have been totally silenced for fear of being witch hunted McCarthyite style as a racist. That leaves only the real racist BNP for people with ligitimate concerns to turn to for representation. And the Left then claims….see we told you they were racists! Its a self fulfilling prophecy….and its creating a calamity in Europe….but it wont be the Lefts fault, they were just trying to create a better world, a utopian vision.
How many times do we have to witness this? When if ever will the radical Leftists be discredited and driven into shameful existence outside of mainstream intitutions and poltical parties.
151 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:03 am
Mickster
Bush didn’t reach the 90% until after 9/11. Prior to that he was constantly attacked. The Left felt he stole the election and many said that he was not their president. We would all be better off is re-writing history would be kept to a minimum.
152 agentprovocateur // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:05 am
“I welcome moderates and independents to drive out the lunatics in the Democrat [sic] Party…”
Will that be at about the same time that moderates and independents drive you and people like you out of the Republican Party?
“As far as healthcare, everyone already has access to free healthcare – just walk into any hospital!”
Now there’s a rational, successful healthcare plan.
153 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:13 am
I dont think everyone on the Left is a radical, however the radicals are not the power on the Left, they are the Establishment….they drive the zeitgeist/agenda.
There are indeed Decent Leftists. There are also many ignoramouses that cant see anything deeper than their own personal benefit or limited vision of the small increment aprouch where the overall agenda or its collective effects is not examined. Only small bites are assessed in isolation. Some are just useful idiots. But the collective group of the Left is a danger to liberty, morality, peace, and humanity.
Do I think that Left has done some good things, surely, I do. I support Health Care Reform, but they have as per usual turned it into a ploy to aggrandize and increase the power of the state, by subterfuge with the Public Option a stalking horse for Single Payer, which would give effective control of 1/5th of the US economy to be centrally commanded from the Federal Government.
These are intellectual arguments. They arent knee jerk reactions of fools following Hannity on the radio, driven by racist paranoia or hatred. The assertion that they are just cheapens the debate, and so what we have is competing mobs of American people trying to communicate in often poor ways that they are very concerned about what is being rammed through Congress on a Democrat Supermajority vs AstroTurfed moveon.org and Union Thugs, bent on silencing opposition by shouting them down or violence as we have seen. Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House is trying to deligitimize the American peoples concerns as AstroTurf and then calling them Nazis. I mean really.
And its the Right in this country that has the problems. Get real.
154 Addie // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:18 am
Chekote – looks like you need a life too! You’ve spent 2 full days of a holiday weekend on a blog…so sad.
“Palin is an uninformed, unstable, inarticulate idiot. If she is the dream candidate of the base. Then there is something wrong with the GOP and they better find a new base ASAP.”
Wow – that sounds just like something MSNBC would say. I guess someone with the ability to speak without the need of a teleprompter scares the liberals so they use words like “uninformed, unstable, inarticulate idiot”. Funny how a “Harvard educated” person can’t speak without 20 million ums, ahs, “gunna” and “ta” (instead of “to”)
155 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:34 am
You cannot deny that I am well informed. I read broadly, from both sides of the divide and everything in between. I study history. I also read the defectors from the Left who are a plethora of infomation, many still on and of the Left, but no longer radicals….like Ronald Rodash. I respect Joe Lieberman and Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who I have serious disagreements with. But Ted Kennedy deserves no ones respect. Kennedy is no Moynihan. I even respect Ted’s 2 elder brothers, though their father was scum.
Unfortunately they are the exception rather than the rule.
The New Republic is notable for being a rag of rather Decent Leftists. Also notable is that they are reviled by much of the Left.
I wish all this werent so, but unfortunately reality is what it is, and you have to deal with reality, not fantasies or the way you wished it was.
I supported Obama over Clinton, out of a field of very bad candidates. His backround I thought would take some of the heat off the United States abroad, as Leftists would praise him. This would also take pressure off the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and the Leftist anti Americanism that was at a fever pitch. Furthermore, it would make much more difficult any criticism from the Europeans (and European Left) as they bound by their own PC orthodoxy could not criticize a Black Man, the first Black President of the United States (and of the Leftist Party to boot because as well all know, Clarence Thomas recieved no such deference, neither did Estrada, or Condelezza Rice).
And this has come true.
Do I wish that Obama had not gone on an extensive and continuing apologize for the United States tour. Yes, without question.
Do I oppose Obama’s domestic agenda. Largley yes, but I will support him on Health Care Reform, without the Public Option. I wish that serious tort reform and serious enforcement procedures for preventing illegal aliens from abusing the system were also in place….we may yet still get the latter, as Democrats have been pointing to language excluding them (though in typical Leftist fashion, it has no enforcement provisions, so is mere window dressing and not actually policy).
Do I support Cap & Trade? No. Do I support energy diversification? Yes. Am I an environmentalist? Yes. Do I support the propagation of Anthropogenic Global Warming Cults? No.
These have nothing to do with what race Obama is. But Im sure that anyone who opposes Obama’s agenda will be branded a racist, many, many times to come, because the Left isnt interested in rational debate.
As has been proved in this thread.
156 greg_barton // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:42 am
Not your irrational definition of rationality, no.
157 anniemargret // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:43 am
chekote: thank you.
addie: No. I am not a ‘paid lefty troll’ – in which case I would assume from this statement that anyone who posts here who is not right-wing Republican is unwelcome. I came to this site by way of invite from David Frum. I had written to him after his criticism of Rush Limbaugh, stating that I thought (and still do) that coarsened and hate-filled ‘debate’ on the airwaves and on the Net, will never resolve America’s problems, whether it is coming from the right, or the left-wing of either party. He not only responded to my email, but invited me to join the ‘discussion’ on New Majority.
Secondly, I have a life, thank you. I have three grown children who live nearby, I have a great husband, and thankfully a full time job. I had more time yesterday than normal, had finished a book, and there was nothing constructive or fun on TV. In truth, I find this site interesting because there are some liberal ideas spread among the conservative ones. Running from people whose ideas are divergent from mine never crosses my mind. If I want a comfort zone, I could stay at Kos or Huffington. Today I have a full day planned with my family and friends, so I may not be joining in the discussion till much later tonight or even tomorrow.
Thank you.
158 anniemargret // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:46 am
btw: I don’t think Sotomayer is a ‘racist’ – I think her record proves otherwise, even if she did commit a faux pas about her being a ‘wise Latina woman’ which I personally don’t find odd at all.
Being a minority and an American, I’m sure her life experiences are vastly different from ours. If her record showed repeated biases, I would have not wanted her there either.
She also graduated from the same high school I did, and I will tell you that we were taught (strictly) at Cardinal Spellmen HS in NYC that cheating, lying, and prejudice were sins against God. And we took it seriously and most of us still do.
159 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:14 am
greg_barton:
I say the Moon is made of green cheese.
Prove me wrong.
Chip-on-the-shoulder claims like those are not worth bothering with.
You should learn rhetoric–how to frame a proper argument.
160 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:35 am
anniemargaret:
I agree with that. Surprise!
I grew up in a poor family. I know what poverty is like. Now I am fighting a life-threatening illness. I know what it’s like to have to deal with that, while dealing with medical bills at the same time.
But only a small percentage of Americans are truly in “dire need.” So why are liberals insisting on a public option that is open to everyone, even Wall Street millionaires?
Here in Massachusetts where I live, Governor Romney signed into law a public option that was truly for those in “dire need.” It’s heavily subsidized (premiums only $34.00 a month) so the poor won’t go bankrupt with it. BUT it’s also means tested, so that only the poor and disadvantaged qualify for it. Thus it can never compete against private insurers for the affluent market, keeping it from ever becoming a single-payer system. And guess what, I had no problem with that program.
If ObamaCare had worked like that, I would have supported it. But liberals were insistent that a public option had to be available to everyone REGARDLESS of need. Because they wanted it, armed with subsidies to yield artificially low premiums, to entice businesses to drop private insurance, compete unfairly against private insurers, and move us toward a single-payer system like Canada’s.
That’s what liberals always wanted. And that’s what we conservatives will fight to the bitter end.
161 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:46 am
addie:
I don’t mind that Sarah Palin isn’t articulate. I’ve known engineering professors who wre tongue-tied too. But their mathematics was polished.
And that’s the difference. Sarah Palin isn’t just inarticulate. She has never demonstrated that she understands any of the complex issues we face today. (Except hot-button social issues where she constantly analogizes to the one thing she does know–her own family.) In one-on-one interviews, in debates with Obama, she couldn’t say anything that wasn’t a rehearsed talking-point, almost as if it were in a foreign language.
I’m still waiting to hear Sarah Palin explain her view of Iran, North Korea, the collapse of the derivatives market, the collapse of the credit markets, whether General Motors can ever become profitable enough for the government to privatize it again, how to ensure that the truly needy get adequate health care for even chronic illness that require constant management.
Part of the problem is that her fans don’t care about any of those–hence Palin is under no pressure to do her homework and learn about these issues. Her fans just enjoy seeing “one of their own” becoming a national figure, and they care strongly about abortion and euthanasia and they want someone to represent their views on those issues.
And that’s why Palin can never appeal to anyone outside her base. Because we’re looking for someone who knows what they’re talking about.
162 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:00 am
escapevelocity:
The radical Left had largely been discredited by two events:
1. One was the fall of the Soviet bloc, and all the horrific revelations that came out of there. It wasn’t just the fall of the USSR. It was the fact that every single Eastern European and Baltic state voted in free and fair elections to oust the Communists, as soon as the USSR took away the threat of military intervention. (That was more relevant to the Left in Western Europe, many of whom were true Communists, than to the radicals in America, who had rarely taken direction from the Soviet bloc. The West European Communist parties never recovered from that shock.)
2. The other was the rise of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) here in America, a group of moderate Dems who decided the Dems had to ditch their anti-growth, anti-military, big-government philosophy. They included Paul Tsongas and Bill Clinton, both of whom were Presidential candidates (and one won, of course).
Now, with Obama, many of the hard-core Left thought they finally had a champion. Ideologically, his heart may be with Pelosi and Conyers. But fortunately for us conservatives, he’s proving to be a weak champion indeed. No guts.
Times change.
Conservatism appeared to have been discredited by the elections of 1932 and 1964. But it made a comeback. Liberalism appeared to have been discredited by the elections of 1980 and 1994. But it made a comeback.
This is distressing to those ideologues who believe that their so-called “timeless principles” cannot possibly be wrong ever. But for most Americans, they continue to take the good parts of what liberals have to say, and take the good parts of what conservatives have to say–while rejecting stuff from liberals and conservatives that doesn’t appear to work well. That kind of eclecticism and pragmatism has served America well.
163 Cforchange // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:22 am
First – anniemargret, are you a paid lefty troll? I mean you have been posting on this blog nonstop all day. The other reason would be you have no life. My guess is you are a paid troll spreading the liberal gospel. Your life can’t be that pathetic can it?
You know Addie, I wonder the same about the escaper who behaves similarly but is in your pew. You can ague here at this site all you want – but win elections in key places, no.
Escaper – The Rust Belt are just early adopters to blight – it’s coming to the South, just you watch. What is the future for places like the “banking” capital Charlotte. It’s over capacity will carry it for many a generation. You might point the finger to the labor machine but I see the finger pointed right back at the over paid, over bonused, over stock optioned “executive”. Aren’t your tea partiers on to this???
The bottom line is that our country needs to find balance and that will be moderates who can strike the chord of cooperation.
Hey what ever happened to Otto???
164 greg_barton // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:50 am
Yes, sinz54, you’ve got it.
165 greg_barton // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:58 am
Cforchange, in their heart of hearts tea partiers want to be vassals in a feudal system. So, yes, they’re on to the thievery of corporate executives. They want to be in on it, and want to subjugate themselves to the thieves.
166 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:01 am
Hear, hear.
167 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:06 am
Curt Schilling outlines his political views.
Very interesting read. It supports my belief that there is a large electorate in the middle still looking for a political party.
168 brandon // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:07 am
The problem with “moderates” is that it is hard to understand what they stand for.
As a conservative, my principles are limited government, individual freedom, traditional values, and free enterprise.
It seems like whenever I hear someone say they are a moderate, it means they are fiscally conservative but socially liberal and often they seem to think the “religious right” has taken over the Republican Party.
Do moderates actually have their own philosophy?
169 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:08 am
brandon:
I saw all of the debates between Obama and McCain. Obama answered every question clearly. He demonstrated a good understanding of the issues. I disagreed with a number of his proposed solutions. But he stated his case well. He knew what he was talking about. On economic issues, McCain did not.
You can disagree with a candidate, while still acknowledging that the candidate knows what he’s talking about. That was how I regarded Obama.
As President, Obama’s problem is NOT that he’s unintelligent or misinformed. His problem is that he lacks the “surety of command.” He doesn’t seem to fit the job of leader. And leadership is very hard to assess in a one-on-one debate. In 2008, we Americans had no way to tell who would make the best leader.
That’s why, in American history, most Presidents had prior executive experience. But neither McCain nor Obama did. Both parties made a mistake by nominating someone with no prior executive experience.
170 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:10 am
CforChange
I have neen wondering the same about Otto. Do you read littlegreenfootballs? Charles Johnson is doing yeoman’s work in trying to the expose the nutty right wingers. In return, his blog has been di-linked from many right wing blogs. The latest is Iowahawk. Very disappointing. How in the heck anyone can think that following Beck’s paranoid fantasies is good for the GOP???!!!!!
171 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:13 am
CforChange:
“ottovbs” admitted that he came here to enjoy the schadenfreude of a divided and demoralized conservative movement, in the face of a successful Obama presidency.
Clearly, that situation no longer obtains. Obama’s approval rating is dropping below 50%, and he’s on the defensive now. And Glenn Beck got a scalp this week.
And so, “ottovbs” has fled. He went out on a limb predicting that Congress would pass a robust public option on health care. He doesn’t want to be an object of MY schadenfreude after he’s proven wrong. His ego couldn’t stand it.
172 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:14 am
As a conservative, my principles are limited government, individual freedom, traditional values, and free enterprise.
What do you think government should do vis a vis traditional values?
173 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:18 am
Sinz
Obama didn’t understand economic issues any better than McCain. What undercut McCain was his erratic behavior in the face of the financial “meltdown”. First he opposed the AIG bailout. Next day, he reversed. Suspended his campaign. Said he would not debate until the financial crisis was solved. He came across as a hot head. And his running mate was way out of her league. So people opted for the cool head with the experienced running mate.
174 brandon // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:25 am
sinz54 said: “In 2008, we Americans had no way to tell who would make the best leader.”
Huh?
My 2008 choices:
1. A one term Senator who makes a good speech but has never passed any significant legislation. A man who has never accomplished anything in life other than being a “community organizer” and academic yet he’s already written his biography.
or
2. A man who has been in the Senate for 21 years and had been previously been a Navy captain for 21 years and a POW.
You are honestly going to tell me you didn’t see a difference in leadership ability between the two?
175 brandon // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:29 am
In regards to traditional values, the main thing government can do in this area is not enact policies that undermine these values such as welfare policies that encourage single mothers not to get married, teaching multicultural nonsense in public schools, etc.
176 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:36 am
brandon
Do you think that gambling should be illegal? Do you think ID should be taught in science classes?
177 brandon // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:46 am
Chekote, I think we are getting off topic as I thought this thread was about conservatism on a federal level but to answer your questions:
Gambling should be a state matter. I personally would campaign against casino gambling here in Tennessee but it is none of my business what other states do in that area.
What should be taught in science classes should be up to the local school district. I personally would advocate teaching ID in science class in the public schools in my community, but it is not an issue I feel strongly about because I’m a big advocate in sending children to private schools where a parent can choose.
178 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:59 am
Do Republicans EVER think the Democrats can offer up a positive solution, or is it always attack/attack/attack…the party of NO and obstructionism. — anniemargaret
I put the same question to the Democrats and Leftwingers here, but in reverse.
179 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Sinz said :
If ObamaCare had worked like that, I would have supported it. But liberals were insistent that a public option had to be available to everyone REGARDLESS of need. Because they wanted it, armed with subsidies to yield artificially low premiums, to entice businesses to drop private insurance, compete unfairly against private insurers, and move us toward a single-payer system like Canada’s.
That’s what liberals always wanted. And that’s what we conservatives will fight to the bitter end.
———
Bingo!
I also support massive health care reform, in the mold of the German or the Massachusetts plan.
180 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Sinz, while Im not going to defend Palin as William F. Buckleyesque, or even a National or International Policy Wonk…..
The fact remains that she was a very popular governor in her state, successful, fought corruption in her own party and won, and furthered the states economic well being including sorting out oil contracts in favor of the state and the people. Even increasing gay rights vis a vis vetoing a move to deny gay partner benefits to gay state employees.
The fact of the matter is that Sarah Palin isnt the bogeyman you make her out to be. That she appeals viscerally to many Conservatives isnt a strike against her. That Obama appeals viscerally to many Leftwingers isnt a strike against him.
I really think you should law off of Sarah Palin, because all it is a bigoted attack. If similar attacks are made against Obama, the chant is racism. You are simply expressing “racism” with your attacks on Sarah Palin. Obama is quite the narcissist himself.
The only valid point you are making with regards to Palin, is that she seemed to be lacking policy chomps on international issues and some national issues. Which can easily be corrected, we all grow and learn, nobody is an expert on all areas. Furthermore, that is what the cabinet and advisors are for. I submit to you that Reagan was so effective because he was the “Great Communicator” and he had fantastic knowledgable support via his cabinent and staff.
What we can see is that Obama seems to be blundering along, even though people give him credit for being a Rennaisance Man in the Leonardo Da Vinci since….which he clearly is not. What Obama knows is Leftwing politics and worldviews, which resonates as intelligence with Leftwingers.
I mean lets look at Obama’s response to Iran and Honduras…..close analysis of his response and policy response on those would show him to be a complete moron.
181 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Sinz, do you think that all those people who apologized for Soviet Communism, thwarted US response during the Cold War around the globe, and repetitively supported Socialist Revolutionaries whose governments invariably turned immediately totalitarian and Soviet oriented.
Do you think those people changed their minds? They still exist. Maxine Waters just praised Castro for God’s sake!
182 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:20 pm
To THUNDEROUS applause at a Health Care symposium in California, I might add.
183 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Will that be at about the same time that moderates and independents drive you and people like you out of the Republican Party? — anniemargaret
As I have been explaining, in language that you might understand, the Right is Reactioinary to the Leftist Revolutionaries. Ditch the Radicals Leftist Revolutionaries and the Contras go away. Ditch the radicals and the radical reaction goes away.
Can you understand that priniciple? Its a very straightforward formulation.
Lets give a concrete example.
Ditch the radical feminists and pro abortion stance, let Roe v. Wade be struck down (an underhanded tactic to bypass teh legislatures in teh first place) and then we can have the moderates and compromise in the states where rational abortion restrictions will be set into place.
Instead we have the radical abortion on demand as a Constitutional Right that shall not be infringed being defended in the most vile, aggressive ways by the Radical Left (think attack on Clarence Thomas or Judge Pinkering). And that has given rise to ever and ever more radical opposition to these radical Leftists and their radical tactics.
Drop Roe v. Wade, put in place rational restrictions on abortion, and the radicals on teh Right fade away. The people driving the radicalism are on the Left, without them, we have sane policy debates on abortion in the State Legislatures….which would have been settled long ago.
Can you understand this basic logic?
184 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Charles Johnson is not a Conservative.
Please get that through your head.
He was accused of being a Neo Con for being a Liberal Hawk with regards to Islam and the Iraq and Afghanistan war.
185 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:44 pm
escapevelocity:
I said that the hard-core Left had been discredited.
I never said they disappeared.
186 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Brandon I too favor teaching ID in school cirricula as an adjunct to Evolution.
But like you, I think the best plan of action is school choice, because the payoff is much larger….and broader in scope.
Furthermore the debate around ID and Evolution is very sophisticated and nuanced….and without this deep level long form discussion, the anti intellectual anti ID crowd comes out looking better in the simple sloganeering level of debate, generally.
187 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:52 pm
You would think that they had been discredited…..yet when you look at Chavez and the Western Left….
or Castro and the Western Left….
Its clear they are still starry eyed nincompoops.
188 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:55 pm
anniemargaret:
The job of the “loyal opposition” is to oppose the majority party–on many things. And to win the next election, if possible.
But there are Republicans who have tried to work with Dems on health care: Both senators from Utah (Hatch and Bennett); the two Maine ladies (Snowe and Collins); Grassley; etc.
And if Obama decides to press on in Afghanistan, he may actually get more support from Republicans than from Democrats.
I believe that Obama would have gotten more support from the GOP on health care, if he had insisted from the beginning that GOP concerns (like tort reform) have to be considered in any health care reform bill. Instead, he tossed the ball to Pelosi, a hard-core left-wing partisan, who oversaw the creation of health care bills that satisfied the Dem left-wing base but practically no one else.
189 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Brandon I too favor teaching ID in school cirricula as an adjunct to Evolution.
Do also favor teaching the Muslim, Buddhist version of how the world was created in science classes? ID has absolutely no scientific basis. Why do you feel it should be taught in science classes.
190 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:01 pm
brandon:
McCain’s service as a Navy captain was 20 years prior. In the meantime, he served only in the Senate, not having to lead anybody. In 2007, the immigration reform bill he co-authored, collapsed.
And being a Navy captain isn’t exactly the kind of leadership you need to be POTUS. Because a Navy captain can demand that his subordinates follow his orders. As POTUS, only the military has to follow the POTUS’s orders. Not the 300 million civilians.
Finally, you yourself admit that McCain’s performance during the financial meltdown was erratic. Faced with a crisis, McCain freaked out, and NEVER demonstrated any positive value added. That didn’t impress me with his leadership skills. We’ll never know if that was a fluke or whether that would have been how his entire Presidency would have been–erratic.
191 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:06 pm
sinz
I came out of the election feeling that McCain is too impulsive. His selection of Palin and reaction to the meltdown confirmed that for me.
192 My Tribute to Glenn Beck (subtitle: Holy God This Man is Crazy!) | Michael and Gretchen // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:20 pm
[...] Skip ahead to this morning: David Frum’s newest post on NewMajority.com asks the question I’ve been wondering recently: “From Buckley to Beck: Where Did We Go Wrong?” [...]
193 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Since I dont advocate teaching Genesis in in Science class, your question is as ill founded as it is anti intellectual.
194 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Sinz post at 188, I wholehearted second.
195 brandon // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:32 pm
sinz
I didn’t particularly like either ticket, but I certainly believed that McCain was the better choice over Obama. You don’t make someone who is that inexperienced POTUS. Yes, McCain came across clueless about the economy and picking Palin as VP also showed poor judgement, but at least McCain had a record we could judge. I also trust that McCain would have surrounded himself with competent advisors and not ones like Eric Holder and Van Jones.
I think the last 8 months have certainly proved that Obama is way in “over his head” and it should have been obvious to anyone who seriously studied the candidates that Obama was an “empty suit.” It is a moot point now because Obama won the election.
chekote
I have no desire to debate science curriculum at New Majority. My personal religious belief is that God designed the universe. How he did it, I don’t know. If I had kids, I would do whatever it took to send them to a religious private school, so it really doesn’t matter if they teach ID or not in the public schools.
196 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Via Glenn Reynolds aka Instapundit…
I LINKED THIS PIECE ON THE HEALTH CARE DEBATE YESTERDAY, but several readers liked this passage enough that it’s worth highlighting:
Les Bayless, the retired treasurer of Service Employees International Union 1199, blamed poor leadership within the union community for its troubles. “We need different leaders,” he said. Of the health care protesters, he said, “I think they are out there because of TARP [the $787 billion Troubled Assets Relief Program passed by Congress]. TARP p*** me off, too. We let them own that issue.”
The group collectively lamented that the Right discovered Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals.” “It’s kind of scary! They have learned all of the tricks,” said Sue Esty, the assistant director of American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees Maryland.
Scary, indeed. Meanwhile, people on the right are finding the opposition pathetic rather than scary. “24th State is reporting tonight that Elston McGowan is asking the SEIU for workman’s comp for the injury he suffered at the Carnahan rally while beating Ken Gladney’s a$$.”
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/84656/
197 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Bears repeating…
The group collectively lamented that the Right discovered Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals.” “It’s kind of scary! They have learned all of the tricks,”
This is exactly what the Conservative movement needs, to adopt the successful tactics of the Left, and use them mercilessly.
198 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Obama did not win because of Alinsky tactics. He won because the GOP completely blundered their turn at the wheel.
199 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Media Malfeasence…
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/07/breitbart-couric-should-look-in-mirror/?feat=home_headlines&page=2
excerpt….
Calling Mr. Jones’ critics “racist” was their best play, and that gruel gets thinner with every passing scandal cycle. In this case, the Jones “Swift Boat” already had left the harbor.
Much of America has started to realize that not only was Mr. Obama not vetted before he became president, he and his fellow unvetted cohorts continue to be given a pass by the Fourth Estate.
Two more stories demonstrate how the Democrat-Media Complex, the natural alliance of the Democratic Party and the mainstream media, is more concerned with trying to figure out how to destroy Glenn Beck – “he’s nuts!” – than to follow his methodical, accurate reporting. This dynamic – used against all potent critics and off-the-reservation journalists – shows that not only is the media ignoring all the negative things coming out about the Obama administration, it is acting like President Richard Nixon’s henchmen, making life difficult for its whistleblowers.
One of the stories is that ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, a massive radical organization, is poised to receive billions from the Obama “stimulus.”
ACORN’s voting division is currently under investigation in multiple states for fraud. And its housing division exists to fulfill an unclear mandate that has been accused of using funds to pay for political protests. If the alternative media digs further and finds out ACORN is guilty as charged, and as corrupt as its ample critics say it is, the onus is those who didn’t question when the Obama team decided to allocate billions to expand the group’s reach.
Brian Williams, the ball is in your court.
Another story not making the evening news is that of artist Patrick Courrielche, who has shown that the National Endowment of the Arts is seeking to use government funds to promote Obama administration initiatives. On Sunday’s “This Week,” George Will pierced the mainstream media veil.
“Recently there was a conference call arranged by the National Endowment for the Arts, with a representative of the White House, for potential grantees or actual grantees of the federal government, getting subsidies – the theme of it was how the arts community could advance the president’s agenda. Now I don’t know how many laws that breaks, but I am sure there are some.”
What are you waiting for, Katie Couric?
If the mainstream media continues down the path of covering up the sins of the Democratic Party and the Obama administration, in particular, while it continues to exert its still powerful weapons to destroy those who would dare do their jobs for them, then eventually, perhaps in the near future, those “mobs” that have befuddled the Democratic Party at health care town halls and at tea parties will take their pitchforks to media row.
When the next big scandal hits – and it will, and it most certainly won’t come from traditional journalism – all eyes will be on “Pinch” Sulzberger to see if he does his job.
All eyes are on the media. We are judging them by the standard they taught us during Watergate: “The cover-up is worse than the crime.”
200 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Barack Obama accused of making ‘Depression’ mistakes
Barack Obama is committing the same mistakes made by policymakers during the Great Depression, according to a new study endorsed by Nobel laureate James Buchanan.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/6147211/Barack-Obama-accused-of-making-Depression-mistakes.html
201 balconesfault // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:50 pm
at least McCain had a record we could judge.
Really? What was that record? Seriously. Since when does being a “maverick” make one a leader – when the very term maverick is to refer to a horse which bolts from the herd … and isn’t followed by the rest of the herd.
I also trust that McCain would have surrounded himself with competent advisors and not ones like Eric Holder and Van Jones.
When we hear of gross politicization within the Justice Department on scale of what occurred during the Bush White House years – something which McCain was wholly silent on, which suggests he was fine with the tenure of Alberto “I don’t recall” Gonzalez – we can talk. Right now the right hates Holder (a) because he is an Obama appointee, (b) because he has ignored Obama and moved forward with looking into whether or not the CIA and their contractors went way too far in torturing detainees, and (c) apparently for not prosecuting to the full extent two black panthers who stood outside a polling station in Philadelphia that traditionally votes about 95% Democratic when a McCain supporting poll watcher claimed they were threatening. Meanwhile, Jones was appointed to a job which required enthusiasm and dedication to promoting the creation of new jobs in a green economy – something which he seemed extraordinarily qualified to do.
I think the last 8 months have certainly proved that Obama is way in “over his head” and it should have been obvious to anyone who seriously studied the candidates that Obama was an “empty suit.”
I think the last 8 months have certainly proved that George W. Bush was way in “over his head”, given that he left to his successor one 6 year old war that has cost the Americans about 1-2 trillion dollars, another 7 year old war that has cost us another half trillion or so, an illegal detention center in Guantanamo, an intact Al Qaeda leadership 7+ years after 9/11, the highest annual deficit in US history, piled on a doubling of the federal debt in 8 years, and an economy on the precipice of depression.
That Obama couldn’t wave a magic wand and cure all these ills in 8 months, particularly given a Republican minority in Congress whose leadership is primarily dedicated to seeing Obama fail as their only pathway back to political relevance, isn’t a shocker.
To start, McCain wouldn’t have pushed through a stimulus package. And as a result, we’d probably be in jobs free-fall, approaching 15% unemployment in this country. Republicans should thank the stars on a daily basis that Obama is in there to clean up the mess, and they can try to pile blame on him for the residual legacy of 8 years of complete and utter failure by Bush.
202 balconesfault // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:58 pm
“Recently there was a conference call arranged by the National Endowment for the Arts, with a representative of the White House, for potential grantees or actual grantees of the federal government, getting subsidies – the theme of it was how the arts community could advance the president’s agenda. Now I don’t know how many laws that breaks, but I am sure there are some.”
I love this stuff. Beautiful harrumphing from the guys who stood and cheered as a navy vessel was idled off the US coast for a day so it could be adorned with a “Mission Accomplished” banner and Bush could land on it in a flightsuit, rather than walking aboard a docked vessel in civilian garb.
Here’s apparently what the NEA called for – art “to help lay a new foundation for growth, focusing on core areas of the recovery agenda – health care, energy and environment, safety and security, education, community renewal.”
The funny thing is, had a Republican Administration called for this, George Will would have been praising the NEA for moving away from urine soaked crosses, and promoting art that would stimulate Americans to embrace our best civic virtues.
Under Obama, it’s suddenly something nefarious.
203 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 2:09 pm
And Obama and the Dems will completely screw up and the GOP will have control of the House and the Presidency by 2012.
Meanwhile, Alinsky tactics should be adopted and used by the Right to press its agenda and successful counter the Left.
Its as simple as that.
204 brandon // Sep 7, 2009 at 2:15 pm
balconesfault,
McCain had been in the Senate since 1987. We have 21 years worth of votes that he has cast on a variety of issues including 8 out of the 9 Supreme Court justices.
The country would be better off without the Obama “stimulus.” It has failed and even if it had worked in the short term, the long term implications of his stimulus are likely to be a disaster. Brian Riedl at National Review can explain it better than me:
http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=MTViNmZiZmQ4NmMxM2Y5NmEzNWIwYWRmNmNhMWJlY2I
I get the idea that in 2012, you are still going to be blaming Bush if Obama’s policies have failed to bring the nation peace and prosperity.
Best way to deal with the NEA issue would be to eliminate it. If the state, county and city governments want to support art than more power to them, but the federal government should not be using my tax dollars for such purposes.
205 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 2:15 pm
balconesfault, counters with whataboutery.
The Minister of Propaganda, will use the money to fund the arts to promote the Presidents agenda.
Nothing wrong with that, that is what the NEA is for, to promote the Presidents Agenda.
When the next US president directs teh NEA to promote artists that further his agenda and controls them with taxpayers money to do so, you should have no problem with that….because that is the essential function of the NEA.
LOL!
You leftwingers should be happy that Bush had an aircraft carrier idling away….that way it wasnt out perpetrating capitlist imperialist wars for oil!
What a hoot!
206 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 2:18 pm
The stimulus is really just a fund for vote buying, that will be used in the 2010 and 2012 elections….as teh Czars reward groups and organizations for their votes. Much of it has not been spent and is in descretionary accounts held by the Democrats and Obama Administration to reward those who donate to and vote for and put their public support behind the appropriate Party.
207 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 2:28 pm
From Little Green Footballs:
Here’s a thread to discuss President Obama’s Labor Day speech to the AFL-CIO picnic in Cincinnati, now under way…
Wait.
LABOR day?! He’s speaking to the WORKERS? Obviously, it’s another sneaky commie plot! Just look at the hidden commie artwork on the Rockefeller Building — it shows… WORKERS!
We’re doomed.
LOL! Love Charles Johnson.
208 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Speaking to children is not the equivalent of speaking to adults.
For claiming to be intellectuals, you all sure are lacking in the required nuance of thinking.
209 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Chekote:
McCain lost because of two things.
First, during the primary season he said that the economy was doing well, and implied that Bush should be given credit for it. That was just a few months before the economy fell off a cliff. That was his “macaca” moment.
Second, because he was then in the impossible position of having to claim he could fix the economy while ignoring all the things his party had done to screw it up. He couldn’t take on his own party directly; especially he couldn’t take on Bush directly, without splitting the party and making it even easier for the Dems to win. That’s the same trap that Humphrey was in over Vietnam in 1968. And he lost too.
And I sure hope no one brings up Fannie and Freddie again. It’s been proven already that Fannie and Freddie couldn’t have taken down the global financial system all by themselves.
210 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 3:05 pm
No Loony Lefty Left Behind
They loved him and left him – Firedoglake founder Jane Hamsher excoriates the cut-and-run liberals who loved Green Czar Van Jones when he was up but abandoned him in his moment of trial. I especially like her “He wasn’t any crazier than the rest of us” defense:
Now he’s been thrown under the bus by the White House for signing his name to a petition expressing something that 35% of all Democrats believed as of 2007 — that George Bush knew in advance about the attacks of 9/11.
Good point! Ms. Hamsher also criticizes her comrades on the left with a point we hear more often from the right:
“no coherent liberal critique was offered…”
Truer words.
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/09/no-loony-lefty-left-behind.html
211 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 3:13 pm
If you all would like to get down to the nuts and bolts of election law that help promote polarization of the polity. Im all for having that discussion.
Independent panels of retired judges that are not politicized….should be given district drawing duties….with guidelines to follow. To eliminate gerrymandering.
Furthermore, party primaries should be open to all voters….and you can vote in both.
The combination of gerrymandering to produce safe seats (while protecting incumbants as one effect)…..also means that the real election that determines the holder of office is in the primary election. And that primary election when reserved for the Party’s base…means that the more Leftwing and the more Conservative candidates generally win with the base. Thus adding to the polarizing effect.
Districts which eskew gerrymandering and protected seats and are drawn on other criteria like historical, geographical, and historical political bodies, like around DMAs with a city at its core. Plus open primaries would aleviate this problem.
212 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Obama’s speech to shoolchildren (update the new approved word is “students” and not schoolchildren.)
Update: Commenter Faraway counts up references to Obama and to country, and finds 55 self-references and four to the nation.
Update II: I’ve run the speech through a word frequency counter and found the following results:
56 iterations of “I”
19 iterations of “school”
10 iterations of “education”
8 iterations of “responsibility”
7 iterations of “country”
5 iterations each of “parents”, “teachers”
3 iterations of “nation”
In other words, Barack Obama referenced himself more than school, education, responsibility, country/nation, parents, and teachers combined. And to think that people accused Obama of self-promotion!
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/07/obama-school-speech-released/
213 balconesfault // Sep 7, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Good point! Ms. Hamsher also criticizes her comrades on the left with a point we hear more often from the right:
“no coherent liberal critique was offered…”
Nicely taken out of context … since you’re juxtapositioning this quote with a discussion of 9/11 truthers … when Hamsher was talking about liberal opposition to many of the “in bed with the bankers” provisions of the way TARP fund. As much as some on the right were mad at the Federal Government spend money to keep us out of a depression … a lot on the left were mad at the Federal Government laundering that money through the same institutions that got us into the hole we’re in, saving the millionaires and billionaires whose avarice and anti-regulatory fervor created the pile of risky debt that threatened the fortunes of everyone in our economy.
But I guess I shouldn’t have expected you to link to Firedoglake?
214 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 3:28 pm
And I sure hope no one brings up Fannie and Freddie again. It’s been proven already that Fannie and Freddie couldn’t have taken down the global financial system all by themselves.
Fannie and Freddie made the financial crisis possible. They weren’t the sole cause. It was a combination of factors. I also believe that Paulson and Bernanke exaggerated the problem in an attempt to get the TARP money approved. I don’t believe for one movement we were on the verge of a total collapse because of the toxic assets. Evidence: those toxic assets are still on the balance sheets and we are chugging along.
215 balconesfault // Sep 7, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Fannie and Freddie made the financial crisis possible.
Really? No Freddie Mac, no Fannie Mae … no financial crisis?
I also believe that Paulson and Bernanke exaggerated the problem in an attempt to get the TARP money approved. I don’t believe for one movement we were on the verge of a total collapse because of the toxic assets.
And that’s the kind of thinking that’s going to bring America back to supporting Republicans!
216 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 3:39 pm
balcon
Fannie and Freddie facilitate the problem. That was my point. Paulson said he need it TARP money immediately to buy up toxic assets that were “clogging the credit markets”. Those assets are still on the balance sheets.
217 balconesfault // Sep 7, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Here’s where the crazy really comes out to play:
Update II: I’ve run the speech through a word frequency counter and found the following results:
56 iterations of “I”
“I’m here with students at Wakefield High School”
“I know that for many of you, today is the first day of school”
“I imagine there are some seniors out there who are feeling pretty good right now”
” know that feeling. When I was young…”
“Now I wasn’t too happy about getting up that early. A lot of times, I’d fall asleep right there at the kitchen table. But whenever I’d complain…”
“So I know some of you are still adjusting to being back at school. But I’m here today because I have something important to discuss with you. I’m here because I want to talk with you about your education and what’s expected of all of you in this new school year.
“Now I’ve given a lot of speeches about education. And I’ve talked a lot about responsibility.
I’ve talked about your teachers’ responsibility for inspiring you, and pushing you to learn.
I’ve talked about your parents’ responsibility for making sure you stay on track, and get your homework done, and don’t spend every waking hour in front of the TV or with that Xbox.
I’ve talked a lot about your government’s responsibility for setting high standards, supporting teachers and principals, and turning around schools that aren’t working where students aren’t getting the opportunities they deserve.
“But at the end of the day, we can have the most dedicated teachers, the most supportive parents, and the best schools in the world – and none of it will matter unless all of you fulfill your responsibilities.”
Etc.
Yeah – it’s all about a cult of personality.
Keep it up. It’s quite possible that up to now, a lot of America’s teens hadn’t considered the Republican Party of Limbaugh and Coulter and Palin to be dangerously crazy.
218 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 4:19 pm
balcon
I just posted on Hot Air that if Palin had given the same speech talking about herself, Ed Morrissey would be among the first to praise Palin for “relating to the common people”. What is going on on the right wing blogosphere is just pure LUNACY!
219 balconesfault // Sep 7, 2009 at 4:32 pm
My sister’s a science curriculum coordinator for a district in San Antonio. Her district made the talk “optional” – teacher’s choice. In two districts in SA, viewing has been banned.
Knowing teen agers as well as I do (got a couple myself, and I’ve been a volunteer HS cross country coach and a scoutmaster in recent years) – I’m wondering if this is part of a secret conservative plan to get kids to actually listen to Obama, instead of sitting there passing notes and making fart jokes through the presentation.
If you want to get teen agers to pay attention to something – ban it. I’ll bet that Obama’s talk is one of the most U-tubed things on the internet tomorrow evening.
So the Repubs roll out the crazy on the Obama talk. Add rraming healthcare debate as Republican protecting senior citizen entitlements, versus Democrats trying to expand healthcare to cover the uninsured in America … which includes a lot of 20-somethings working in service sector and startups and contracting and other jobs that don’t provide benefits. Toss in the continued push of the Palenites to make the Repubs the party of “just say no to sex before marriage”. And a hefty dose of climate change denialism.
The right wing talking machine, so effective in the past in getting out votes for Republican candidates, is going to ruin the Republican brand for a generation with their “dial up the attack on Obama to 11″ mode. It is a sad thing to see.
220 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 4:36 pm
balconesfault,
Well made point, in your last post.
Except for your conclusion.
What the people will take away from this event, is that Obama is a polarizing figure, and that Democrats in power, create a general atmosphere of unpleasantness that is to be avoided.
221 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Sinz, I am pro guest worker program. Not pathway to citizenship. Furthermore the loophole in the Constitution for anchor babies and thus defacto generational illegal immigration should be closed, as the sensible rational Irish did a few years ago.
I think you will find that I am a moderate centrist when it comes to border enforcement and immigration. And I dont give the Chamber of Commerce and businesses a pass….and would impose harsh penalties on them for breaking the law. There is a way forward that benefits US citizens, and Mexican workers, and furthermore helps remove the draconian restrictions on US citizens with regards to immigration, property ownership, etc down in Mexico.
But alas….the Left is pushing radical agendas….and thus the debate degrades into name calling “Nativists” “Racists” blah blah blah. This about oppsing the legalization of permanent residency and pathway to citizenship for gang members with long criminal records in teh US. These people should be deported.
222 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Now its climate change denialism!
LOL!
First it was Anthropogenic Global Warming Denialism.
Backpedaling into some nebulous fear about a climate that has always changed. This is the kind of muddled mind thinking…..what is important is not the science, or the assessing what is really going on, but in fearmongering and developing a Gaia cult.
Clearly your strategy is a good one….however its anti Science, anti intellectual, and anti reality. Its developing a “false consciousness” based on fear and environmental religous pieties.
You have no shame.
223 greg_barton // Sep 7, 2009 at 5:21 pm
brandon:
Because, as we all know, the laws of physics and other science changes at the border of your local school district.
224 greg_barton // Sep 7, 2009 at 5:24 pm
escapevelocity:
Golly, I guess she HAD to quit after that!
225 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Do you think that you should determine the Science cirricula in Brazil or Italy?
If not, why not?
Shouldnt you be concerning yourself micromanaging the science cirricula in Egypt?
226 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 5:56 pm
escape
science is science. ID is not a scientific endavor and should not be included in science classes. What’s the scientific basis for ID?
227 brandon // Sep 7, 2009 at 6:43 pm
So you guys are in favor of doing away with state and local school boards deciding what is taught in their schools?
228 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 6:46 pm
chekote:
You didn’t shudder when you heard that, for the first time in history, a money market fund had failed to maintain a stable Net Asset Value of $1.00 per share–because much of its commercial paper had become worthless?
There was a REASON why the U.S. stock market crashed 25% in just 2 weeks, leading to the sharpest decline since the Great Depression. Those investors were clearly worried about something, right?
229 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 6:50 pm
So you guys are in favor of doing away with state and local school boards deciding what is taught in their schools?
The local school can decide whatever they want. The question was whether you thought ID should be taught in school.
230 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 7:08 pm
You didn’t shudder when you heard that, for the first time in history, a money market fund had failed to maintain a stable Net Asset Value of $1.00 per share–because much of its commercial paper had become worthless?
No. It was the result of Lehman’s bankruptcy. A temporary problem that was mishandled into a full blown crisis. If we had people at the helm with cool heads, the problem could have been handled thoughtfully without ginning up the country into full panic. The market crash was due to Bush, Bernanke and Paulson getting on TV predicting Armageddon if they didn’t get their money.
231 brandon // Sep 7, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Read Greg’s reply above where he seems to be advocating nationalization of science curriculum.
As I said, if it was up to me I would teach ID in the public schools, but it doesn’t really matter to me because I would elect to send my kids to a private religious school that not only taught ID but taught that the designer was the God of Abraham, Moses and David.
232 sinz54 // Sep 7, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Chekote:
The problem was handled as thoughtfully as limited time allowed.
The Bush Administration announced that henceforth, money market funds would get the same type of FDIC guarantee that bank deposits get. That prevented a run on the money markets.
But TARP required Congressional action. And as you saw, there was substantial opposition to it. Bush and Paulson had to light a fire under Congress, or else it wouldn’t have gotten passed.
TARP, like the FDIC, was primarily for reassurance–that the U.S. Government wouldn’t let the credit markets collapse, bailing them out with as much money as needed to keep them afloat. We never needed to go that far. But it helped prevent a cascading collapse, as more and more commercial paper used by corporations to pay payrolls and pay each other, credit card companies to keep open lines of credit, etc., might have been found worthless.
All in all, even liberals have given Bush credit for acting quickly.
The interesting thing about preventing a disaster is, few people realize how bad things could have gotten–so they squawk about “panic” or “cost.” Stabilizing the money markets and credit markets cost money. Consider it a premium on an insurance policy.
233 balconesfault // Sep 7, 2009 at 7:44 pm
escapevelocity: What the people will take away from this event, is that Obama is a polarizing figure, and that Democrats in power, create a general atmosphere of unpleasantness that is to be avoided.
Question for you – would there be any Democrat who wouldn’t be a “polarizing figure” when contrasted with today’s Republican Party?
Heck – John McCain is too liberal for a significant portion of the Republican Party – that’s why he needed to choose a Sarah Palin to appease the social conservatives. Arlen Spector was viewed as way too liberal for the Republican Party. Same with John Chaffee.
Given that, the very notion of a Democrat sitting in the White House … ANY Democrat … is viewed as absolutely polarizing.
234 agentprovocateur // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Now, with Obama, many of the hard-core Left thought they finally had a champion. Ideologically, his heart may be with Pelosi and Conyers. But fortunately for us conservatives, he’s proving to be a weak champion indeed. No guts.
Or perhaps he is more of a pragmatist rather than a hard-core Lefty as so many people erroneously assumed.
But there are Republicans who have tried to work with Dems on health care…Grassley…
How exactly is Grassley considered to be “working with Dems on health care” when he wallows in ridiculous lies about “death panels”?
235 balconesfault // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:17 pm
How exactly is Grassley considered to be “working with Dems on health care” when he wallows in ridiculous lies about “death panels”?
Not to mention that recently Grassley said that the only acceptable healthcare bill would be one that could end up getting 75-80 votes in the Senate.
My translator interprets this definition of “working with Dems” to mean “insisting that Dems take what you’ll give them, and not a bit more”.
236 Chekote // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:31 pm
Sinz
The reason Congress and people like me objected to TARP was because Paulson never explained the mechanism he was going to use to purchase the toxic assets. A few weeks after the TARP money was approved, Paulson abandoned his plan to toxic assets. Other measures were implemented which stabilized the situation. Said measures could have been implemented without Paulson, Bush and Bernanke panicking the country.
237 barryjon // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:41 pm
I do find it very ironic how this discussion of where conservatism went wrong is on a website of a man who worked for the republican president who did more to harm the conservative message than anyone before him. He did not stand by conservative principles of small government (infact he grew it at astounding speed) and tried to make up for it by advocating social conservatism. This dynamic was devistating to the conservative movement, and gave all of us a bad name. When we finally decide to govern with actual conservative principles, maybe I will take someone like david frum serious. He seems to be self-appointed republican saviour, yet he was part of its downfall. Just blows my mine.
238 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:55 pm
science is science. ID is not a scientific endavor and should not be included in science classes. What’s the scientific basis for ID? — Chekote
Who are you to decide what is science?
What is the scientific basis of dark matter?
239 VCF // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:57 pm
What is wrong with conservatism? Conservatism is the buzzword of the Amerikaaner Party — white, Christian fundamentalist, Southern, male, middle-aged, and angry. Unless you feel threatened or grieviously wronged by atheists, libruls, uppity Negroes, bra-burning Feminazis, or illegal immigrants, what does conservatism have for you? Small govt? Not when conservatives run it. Power devolved to the States? Not when conservatives run it. Fiscal responsibility? Only demanded when a Democrat is President. Competence? Fat chance.
Conservatism grew out of white resentment of the civil rights successes of the 1950s – 1980s. Once the majority of Americans decided it was un-American to hate/fear blacks, women, gays, and atheists, conservatism lost all meaning and had nothing left to offer.
If conservatism had anything intellectual or substantive to offer — such as fiscal responsibility, state’s rights, meritocracy rather than quotas, limited govt — people might have an alternative to the weak sauce that you bozos call socialism and “leftist” ideology. But after 8 yrs of Bush, you should not be surprised that most Americans laugh when they hear the same buzzwords that Goldwater and Nixon spouted 50 yrs ago to get the angry resentful white southern male vote. What’s changed is that we all have evidence that if the racial, gender, and religious resentments are stripped away, there is no “there” there. Hasta la vista, Amerikaaners.
240 txanne // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Conservatism will be held hostage by the far right until leaders stand up in mass numbers to head off the hysterical rants we see all too often. Case in point; Obama’s speech to the students.
George HW Bush did the exact same thing, even asking the kids to write him a letter sharing how they were able to help meet the goals he set forth.
http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/research/public_papers.php?id=3450&year=1991&month=10
Now the text of Obama’s speech has been released and still there are school districts that will not allow the speech to be aired. The chairman of the republican party in FL was a major force in this attack. Now that he has read the speech, he’s like, ok never mind! Then again, I just heard Rick Santorum claim that Obama has surely re-written the speech as to not reveal his original agenda.
The mind boggles!
241 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:37 pm
I would agree with you vcf, excepting that Republicans advocate equality of opportunity, equality before the law, colorblindness and so on and so forth.
Unfortunately the Left advocates Black Racism, Latino Racism, Sexism, and Groupism. Doling out rights and tax money based on identity. So it is the Left which is advocating Afrikaaner policies, treating people differently on the basis of race, and other identity markers. Different laws for people based on their skin color and other identity markers.
Wouldnt it be nice if the racial, gender, and religious resentments were stripped away? Unfortunately hate, racism, sexism, and every other group ism, when you take away the common enemy of white Christian males, and finally destroy their majorities in the countries that were once Caucasian indigenous…..well, you dont get a love fest….you get societal collapse like South Africa is facing….the long slow decline to the Dark Ages, where hopefully the Christians will be able to drag humanity back out of their barbarism….probably to be spat upon and destroyed by arrogant idiots once again.
242 brandon // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Vcf,
Have you ever read Russell Kirk’s “The Conservative Mind?” How about William F. Buckley’s “God and Man at Yale?” What about “Witness” by Whittaker Chambers? Have you ever even heard of the 18th century political philosopher Edmund Burke?
My guess is that the answer to all 4 of my questions is no, otherwise you wouldn’t have written such an uninformed thesis on conservatism.
243 EscapeVelocity // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:49 pm
AnnieMargaret, you said that you were a natural for Huff Po and Daily Kos. Daily Kos is filled with Leftwing radicals who should be culled from the party, albeit they have demonstrated that Democrats will pander to them, and attend their meetings, and parrot their talking points.
Can you discuss teh anti-Semitism problem on the Left?
Why is not only the radical Daily Kos infested with anti Semitic language of the most vile sort, but the more mainstream Huffington Post.
You will find nothing remotely like that on the Conservative sites.
Have the Jews been added to the Caucasian Europeans as enemies of the rainbow coalition, have they been thrown under the bus, in order to expand the rainbow coalition to include Arabs and Muslims, which offer a stronger and growing voter and power base with which to fight global capitalism….(which of course the Jews are the puppet masters are, Litte Satan-Israel, Great Satan-USA). This is regards to the anti American, anti Western, anti Christian, anti Male…the coalition to break the Caucasians power and replace it with various powers like Black Racist Power, ANC, Arab Muslim domination, that type of thing. Naomi Wolfe seems to be looking forward to the Burqua experience.
Thanks for taking the time to thoughtfully address this issue. Ive been witnessing anti Semitism rise on the Left to shockingly high levels and mainstreamed.
244 greg_barton // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:28 am
escapevelocity
No. Science should.
245 greg_barton // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:30 am
brandon
Indeed. They should be removed to make way for federal death panels, filled with STRAW MEN.
246 greg_barton // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:35 am
brandon
Hah! Someone has a reading comprehension problem.
However, if you’re looking for nationalization of education, just look to “No Child Left Behind.” I’ll leave it as an exercise for brandon to tell us who championed that bill.
247 greg_barton // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:40 am
escapevelocity
I know you’re not seriously asking this question, but it’s pretty simple: matter that is posited to exist due to gravitational effects, but is not currently detectable via any emitted EM radiation. And, as a supposedly serious intellectual, I’m surprised you can’t use google to find the wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
248 EscapeVelocity // Sep 8, 2009 at 1:53 am
So there is no basis, its entirely speculation to fill a gap that exists in the current understanding. The science of the gaps.
Anyways, dark matter is very similar to ID, yet no one is demanding that Dark Matter be scrubbed from the Science cirricula.
Hypocrisy is not a good place to be, as it reveals the real motivation behind the censoring of the group of scientific ideas and scientific observations and scientific reason that are collectively known as Intelligent Design. And it aint because its not science.
249 brandon // Sep 8, 2009 at 2:18 am
Greg,
I don’t really see how questioning my reading comprehension adds to the conversation. Are you so immature that you can’t have an online discussion without being insulting?
If you reread your post then perhaps you can see how I got the idea that perhaps you thought science was one subject that should be part of a national curriculum and outside of local control.
George Bush is no longer president and the only aspect of his administration that I will defend is his judicial picks.
250 balconesfault // Sep 8, 2009 at 3:51 am
Anyways, dark matter is very similar to ID, yet no one is demanding that Dark Matter be scrubbed from the Science cirricula.
Ahh – but those who theorize Dark Matter are also bought into the idea of a scientific process whereby someday in the future … there may be new data collection and processing, new analytical methods, new experiments … which may not only be able to prove the concept fo Dark Matter … but which also may be able to disprove the concept.
Seriously now – do you posit that there is some methodological process out there that will be able to disprove Intelligent Design someday, and to replace it with some competing theory? If not, it isn’t science.
251 EscapeVelocity // Sep 8, 2009 at 4:10 am
Ahh – but those who theorize Dark Matter are also bought into the idea of a scientific process whereby someday in the future … there may be new data collection and processing, new analytical methods, new experiments … which may not only be able to prove the concept fo Dark Matter … but which also may be able to disprove the concept. — balconesfault
There is nothing in ID which claims that it cant be disproved or that new data, processing, new analytical methods, new observations, experiements…..can in the future prove or disprove intelligent design
I just busted your bubble full stop.
You can claim that Dark Matter is not science as well as ID, but you cant argue one is and the other isnt….because that is a logical inconsistency.
What is revealing is that their isnt a campaign to scrub Dark Matter from Science cirricula and being taught to children….in the noble cause of defending the purity of science. No their is something else driving the anti ID forces…
I wonder what it could be….
Hmmmm….
252 EscapeVelocity // Sep 8, 2009 at 4:29 am
BTW, ID and Evolution are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore ID doesnt necessarily imply a “God like designer.”
It was wrong when Evolution was suppressed its proponents persecuted in the past, and its wrong that ID is suppressed and its proponents persecuted now.
Im for open inquiry and academic and scientific freedom.
And shame on anyone who isnt!
253 balconesfault // Sep 8, 2009 at 4:50 am
There is nothing in ID which claims that it cant be disproved or that new data, processing, new analytical methods, new observations, experiements…..can in the future prove or disprove intelligent design
It’s not a claim – it’s a first principle. ID isn’t testable, in that it is infinitely mutable – any scientific process can simply have the phrase added “God wanted it that way”. You just did that, for example, with evolution.
Your belief in ID is therefore completely an act of faith, and has nothing to do with science. That’s not to say that it rejects science – it is simply as relevant to the scientific method as poetry is.
254 Cforchange // Sep 8, 2009 at 10:48 am
Chekote – I hardly have time to the NM but I will check out the greenfootballs.
The problem with creationists – it’s for the simpletons and dreamers. The proponents of “ID” are the first to confuse it with science by trying to put in on the same level claiming that it should replace or be on the same level of science. “ID” makes anyone a genius – especially those charasmatic enough to lead a chant at a religious entertainment center and in return have the passive load up the brass dish they pass. Balcone comparing it to poetry is perfect.
Science is very difficult to teach – we don’t have enough scientists in the first place. So you throw in warm and fuzzy creationism with a population who has been lead to believe they are the smartest the world has ever experienced, who would take the tougher road. Especially when the influence from home is that “ID” is just as important as science. Yes the influence would have to be in the home because those who respect and rely on science for progress think the ID crowd is cracked – me included.
ID didn’t cure polio or develop penicilin – get the facts straight. We need science and more scientists. We will not excel and produce the leaders of the new world – we will be lead by nationalized citizens who come to work here as our scientists and there goes the income base.
I can’t believe we are debating this here on this site…. Must be the “saved” smell blood after the Politico article on the moderate success of this site. David Frum don’t be discouraged – the majority isn’t here because they’re out there working hard. The former GOP majority aren’t anti intelects – they were busy business people who trusted that the GOP would select the best candidate to create an environment where business thrives. They’re still busy but no longer trust their party. They might be sick of the government’s growth when you can hardly grow a for profit business. But for sure, in majority, they will not cotton up to the “ID” thinkers. 2008 proved that and will continue to if that’s the path of the GOP.
Maybe it will take a dust bowl and vast hunger to get America on track. Maybe we just can’t think clearly while we are stuffed to the gills with canola oil and high fructose corn syrup.
255 balconesfault // Sep 8, 2009 at 11:12 am
Science is very difficult to teach – we don’t have enough scientists in the first place.
Hallelujah! Exactly right.
Educating the young in scientific method is hard … in no small part because so much of our entertainment and advertising incorporates tidbits of pseudo-science to spruce up the package. There’s an awful lot of clutter to cut through. Add in the babble of various politicians and interest groups, and it’s even thicker. Then let’s drop ID into the pond with a big “kerplunk” and backdoor theology into our science curricula.
So you throw in warm and fuzzy creationism with a population who has been lead to believe they are the smartest the world has ever experienced, who would take the tougher road.
Yeah – I always figured that if ID starts being taught in a school, the laziest smart kid could just fill out a science test with “Because God wanted it” or “whatever God wants it to be” as the answers to every question, and scream religious bigotry when those answers are marked wrong.
256 EscapeVelocity // Sep 8, 2009 at 1:53 pm
It’s not a claim – it’s a first principle. ID isn’t testable, in that it is infinitely mutable — balconesfault
This is false. You have a limited imagination.
257 EscapeVelocity // Sep 8, 2009 at 2:04 pm
I missed the last part. “Infinitely Mutable.”
Yes, and Evolution isnt testable in that it is infinitely mutable. Its more of a paradigm, a metaphysical project in that regard.
There is little reason to exclude mention and discussion of ID as an adjunct to Evolution. In fact it offers the opportunity to teach kids more about what science is and what it isnt….its assumptions and limitations….giving kids a better understanding.
However it seems to me that crying about how hard science is to teach, that you would rather skip over this interesting controversy so that you dont have to teach what science actually is, and can just offer up the consensus doctrine as gospel and be on your merry way.
Sad really.
258 EscapeVelocity // Sep 8, 2009 at 2:10 pm
ID didn’t cure polio or develop penicilin — Cforchange
Evolution didnt cure polio or develop penicilin…get the facts straight.
You see, its just bigotry that is driving your anti ID position….not rationality, not dedication to science, and not dedication to open inquiry(a property of science).
In effect your anti ID position is anti Science. And probably driven by an anti Religion, anti God belief position, as ID gives God a leg to stand on.
So, I suggest to you, that you quit hiding your bigotry and come out and be honest about your motives.
259 greg_barton // Sep 9, 2009 at 12:06 am
escapevelocity, you do know that many elements on the periodic table were discovered from “science of the gaps,” right?
balconesfault is right that ID isn’t testable because there are no commonly accepted definitions of consciousness and intelligence yet. Without those you can’t test whether something is provably created by an intelligent conscious entity, now can you?
Imagination is certainly important for scientific advancement, but at it’s core is empiricism. If you can’t test it, it’s not science. Sorry. Well formed claims about dark matter are testable because there are healthy branches of science called Astronomy and Cosmology that produce methods, instruments, and data that are useful for testing hypotheses.
Evolution is not infinitely mutable. It has a core, simple, rock solid principle: organisms that are more adapted to their environment survive and reproduce.
260 greg_barton // Sep 9, 2009 at 12:25 am
Believe it or not, escapevelocity, I’m actually a bit sympathetic to ID. My connection to evolution research is evolutionary computation, a branch of artificial intelligence that uses aspects of evolution to produce novel approaches to problem solving.
Anyway, it’s my view that evolution inevitably leads to ID. After all, evolution produced us: intelligent beings. If you accept that, it’s not too much of a leap to posit that other intelligences have also been evolved, possibly some on a higher scale than our own. And who’s to say we came first?
However, I also recognize that this is all speculation, and entirely untestable at this time. (And it may never be testable in any practical way.)
261 greg_barton // Sep 9, 2009 at 12:29 am
escapevelocity, just the fact that you say ID gives god a leg to stand on shows your bias. ID supposedly says nothing about the source of the intelligence doing the designing, right? The fact that you focus on a god (and the one with a capital G, to boot) means you have a preference for what that intelligence should be.
262 Cforchange // Sep 9, 2009 at 9:57 am
My only motive would be that the element of the GOP that is supportive of a Palin or Palin type ticket is one that would be wisely supressed. It’s not a winning strategy or majority.
263 race42008.com » Blog Archive » The Two Faces of David Frum // Sep 9, 2009 at 10:17 am
[...] and Ruffini, repeating the claim that there were no longer any great conservative thinker and by invoking the same call for conservatives to adopt Buckleyite, east coast conservative [...]
264 balconesfault // Sep 9, 2009 at 11:04 am
My only motive would be that the element of the GOP that is supportive of a Palin or Palin type ticket is one that would be wisely supressed. It’s not a winning strategy or majority.
Moreover, it should scare the hell out of anyone in the Republican Party who doesn’t naturally fall into the Palin camp. Because if there is anything that her term as Mayor of Wasilla and then Governor of Alaska and then VP candidate has shown, it’s that the woman has very thin skin, and that she will remember who she considers enemies, and that she will use whatever power is at her disposal to punish those enemies. Palin becoming the leader of the Republican Party could turn into a long winter for economic conservatives who don’t want to see a party platform focussed on a “rebirth of a Christian America”.
265 EscapeVelocity // Sep 9, 2009 at 12:31 pm
God and Guns
The only healthy way to fly.
By Mark Steyn
Our lesson today comes from the songwriter Frank Loesser: “Praise The Lord And Pass The Ammunition.”
Or as Barack Obama and his San Francisco pals would put it: God and guns. Loesser got the phrase from Howell Forgy, a naval chaplain at Pearl Harbor, who walked the decks of the New Orleans under Japanese bombardment exhorting his comrades. When the line came to Loesser’s ears, he turned it into a big hit song of the Second World War:
Praise the Lord and swing into position
Can’t afford to sit around a-wishin’…
— which some folks sang as “Can’t afford to be a politician.” Indeed. Senator Obama’s remarks about poor dumb bitter rural losers “clinging to” guns and God certainly testify to the instinctive snobbery of a big segment of the political class. But we shouldn’t let it go by merely deploring coastal condescension toward the knuckledraggers. No, what Michelle Malkin calls Crackerquiddick (quite rightly — it’s more than just another dreary “-gate”) is not just snobbish nor even merely wrongheaded. It’s an attack on two of the critical advantages the U.S. holds over most of the rest of the western world. In the other G7 developed nations, nobody clings to God’n’guns. The guns got taken away, and the Europeans gave up on churchgoing once they embraced Big Government as the new religion.
How’s that working out? Compared to America, France and Germany have been more or less economically stagnant for the last quarter-century, living permanently with unemployment rates significantly higher than the U.S.
Has it made them any less “bitter,” as Obama characterizes those Pennsylvanian crackers? No. In my book America Alone, just out in paperback and available in all good bookstores — you’ll find it in Borders propping up the wonky rear leg of the display table for the smash new CD Michelle Obama And The San Francisco Macchiato Chorus Sing “I Pinned My Pink Slip To The Gun Rack Of My Pick-Up”, “My Dog Done Died, My Wife Jus’ Left Me, And Michael Dukakis Is Strangely Reluctant To Run Again”, Plus “I Swung By The Economic Development Zone Business Park But The Only Two Occupied Rental Units Were Both Evangelical Churches” And Other Embittered Appalachian Favorites …
Where was I? Oh, yes. In my book America Alone, I note a global survey on optimism: 61 per cent of Americans were optimistic about the future, 29 per cent of the French, 15 per cent of Germans. Take it from a foreigner: In my experience, Americans are the least “bitter” people in the developed world. Secular gun-free big-government Europe doesn’t seem to have done anything for people’s happiness. Consider by way of example the words of Keith Reade. He’s not an Obama speechwriter, he’s a writer for the London Daily Mirror. And the day after the 2004 presidential election he expressed his frustration in an alarmingly Obamaesque way:
Were I a Kerry voter, though, I’d feel deep anger, not only at them returning Bush to power, but for allowing the outside world to lump us all into the same category of moronic muppets. The self-righteous, gun-totin’, military-lovin’, sister-marryin’, abortion-hatin’, gay-loathin’, foreigner-despisin’, non-passport ownin’ red-necks, who believe God gave America the biggest d*** in the world so it could urinate on the rest of us and make their land “free and strong.”
Well, that’s certainly why I supported Bush, but I’m not sure it entirely accounts for the other 62,039,073 incontinent rednecks. Mr Reade, though, does usefully enumerate some of the distinctive features that separate America from the rest of the west. “Self-righteous”? If you want a public culture that reeks of indestructible faith in its own righteousness, try Europe — especially when they’re talking about America: If you disagree with Eutopian wisdom, you must be an idiot. Obama and far too many Democrats have bought into this delusion, most thoroughly distilled in Thomas Frank’s book What’s The Matter With Kansas?, whose argument is that heartland voters are too dumb (i.e., “moronic muppets”) to vote for their own best interests.
Europeans did “vote for their own best interests” — i.e., cradle-to-grave welfare, 35 hour work-weeks, six weeks of paid vacation, etc — and as a result they now face a perfect storm of unsustainable entitlements, economic stagnation, and declining human capital that’s left them so demographically beholden to unassimilable levels of immigration that they’re being remorselessly Islamized with every passing day. We should thank God (if you’ll forgive the expression) that America’s loser gun-nuts don’t share the same sophisticated rational calculation of “their best interests” as Thomas Frank, Obama, too many Democrats and the European political establishment.
As for “gun-totin’,” large numbers of Americans tote guns because they’re assertive, self-reliant citizens, not docile subjects of a permanent governing class. The Second Amendment is philosophically consistent with the First Amendment, for which I’ve become more grateful since the Canadian Islamic Congress decided to sue me for “hate speech” up north. Both amendments embody the American view that liberty is not the gift of the state, and its defense cannot be outsourced exclusively to the government.
I think a healthy society needs both God and guns: it benefits from a belief in some kind of higher purpose to life on earth, and it requires a self-reliant citizenry. If you lack either of those twin props, you wind up with today’s Europe — a present-tense Eutopia mired in fatalism. A while back, I was struck by the words of Oscar van den Boogaard, a Dutch gay humanist (which is pretty much the trifecta of Eurocool). Reflecting on the Continent’s accelerating Islamification, he concluded that the jig was up for the Europe he loved, but what could he do? “I am not a warrior, but who is?” he shrugged. “I have never learned to fight for my freedom. I was only good at enjoying it.”
Sorry, it doesn’t work like that. If you don’t understand that there are times when you’ll have to fight for it, you won’t enjoy it for long. That’s what a lot of Keith Reade’s laundry list — “gun-totin’,” “military-lovin’” — boils down to. As for “gay-loathin,’” it’s Oscar van den Boogaard’s famously tolerant Amsterdam where gay-bashing is resurgent: the editor of the American gay paper the Washington Blade got beaten up in the streets on his last visit to the Netherlands.
God and guns. Maybe one day a viable society will find a magic cure-all that can do without both, but Big Government isn’t it. And even complacent liberal Democrats ought to be able to cast an eye across the ocean and see that. But then he did give the speech in San Francisco, a city demographically declining at a rate that qualifies it for EU membership. When it comes to parochial simpletons, you don’t need to go to Kansas.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Y2RjNzdlMjczZmU0MDdiZDVhMzY0ZmFiZTRlZDJjZDc=
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