Tell ya what, Dave…

You be the Lone Ranger this week… I’ll be Tonto.

Next week… we switch!

(Boy, I can hardly wait till we get to play Batman and Robin! I wanna drive… I wanna drive…!)

(*SMILE*)

BILL

“I’ll try to get back to you more often.”

(*THUMBS UP*)

Good man, Tom!

You actually have taken part in discussions arising from past threads you’ve contributed; don’t think I haven’t noticed.

I’m guessing you “get” where I was coming from with my little aside concerning “Where’s Tom?” Yes, it was directed at you, but in the large context it was directed to David Frum.

Hey… Frum’s gonna do what he’s gonna do… but I truly believe that if he take my advice on a number of these “administrative” matters he’ll ultimately do better with this blog.

Hey… I KNOW that I’m not exactly “Mr. Everybody Loves Me,” but by showing such contempt for and rudeness towards NewMajority posters (basically ignoring us) Frum isn’t doing himself or his reputation any favors. Same goes for those in his stable of “contributors” who behave likewise.

No response necessary, Tom… but if you’re in touch with Frum… well… you might wanna give him your input if you share my perspective even a little bit.

(*SHRUG*)

Best regards,

BILL

Bernie Madoff stole my money – someone should reimburse me.
My coffee was hot and I burned myself – someone should pay for my pain and suffering.
My husband died in the World Trade Towers. Someone should pay me.
Someone shot my son at Virginia Tech, the state of Virginia should pay me money now.
I don’t actually have a steady income and I bought a house. It’s the bank’s fault for loaning me money.
My kid doesn’t listen to me, the schools should do something.
And on and on and on.

It’s always someone else’s fault. Someone else’s responsiblity.
I freely admit that every stupid mistake I have made in my whole life is a direct result of my own stupidity, ignorance, and lack of common sense. I sometimes feel like the Lone Ranger.

“You took the second incorrectly.”

Ahh… my bad! Please accept my apologies for misunderstanding.

“My rationale is that if you void parental rights – many of those “parents” would just make more babies.”

Hmm. Yeah. Now I see where you’re coming from.

(*SIGH*)

Hmm… how to get around that (viable legal strategies) I’m not sure.

Still… one problem at a time. The existing kid is trapped in a dysfunctional home… we attempt to “rescue” the child. That’s what I say. And if by rescuing the child from his errant parents we’re also serving the interests of society in terms of removing the child from being a continuing disruption for the public school… that’s taking out two birds with one stone. Or at least that’s how I see it.

Will the mother have more children? Perhaps. Perhaps even probably. But as I wrote above… (*SIGH*)… one problem at a time – deal with the problems in sequence if need be.

No. Not a perfect solution. Not even close. Still, I think it’s a better one than “staying the present course.”

“Would your draconian measure result in a population increase? Hard to say, but I prefer to nip it in bud so to speak.”

Oh, yeah… me too! Hey… you’ve got my support if you wanna run for King! All I’m saying is that I don’t think we’d get away with the “Bob Grant Mandatory Sterilization Act of 1970.”

(*SHRUG*) (*SIGH*)

BILL

The first one was a “No” (Too messy)
You took the second incorrectly. It was, “I see your draconian measure and I raise you an even more draconian measure.” My rationale is that if you void parental rights – many of those “parents” would just make more babies. After all society rewards them for doing so. Would your draconian measure result in a population increase? Hard to say, but I prefer to nip it in bud so to speak. Reminds me of my stupid Japanese beetles that invade me every June. Unless I get them when they are grubs I end up with more beetles regardless of how many I kill with my scent traps.

I agree with you when you say: “By high school, if a kid can’t act like a civilized person – a respectful student – get him or her the hell out of there. Start with detentions… move to suspensions… then expulsion. The kid wants to ruin his or her life… so be it. My focus is on the kids who want to learn; I want them to have their chance.”

I think most, most, most of the kids in the poor schools – chaotic, etc – want to learn. Many are so emotionally or physically or mentally scarred that it’s impossible. Furthermore, many schools are dumping grounds for learning disabled children. This was the case where I worked. Kids weren’t given the proper attention, or competent attention, so they ran the halls and went berserk.

I’ll try to get back to you more often. If you want, email the editor@newmajority.com and he’ll give you my email. Thanks, Gibbon

“Does it work? Spare the rod, spoil the child?”

Well, I believe it does, but it’s not what I believe that matters. I say let’s TRY it. If it doesn’t work… well… then we’ll find out it doesn’t help. If it does… it does.

(Hey Sinz… if you’re lurking… you’re a big fan of the scientific method; what’a'ya think… test the hypothesis?) (*WINK*)

No… seriously, Mid… I say try it… monitor the results… analyze the results… give it a shot. One thing we know for sure is what’s occurring ABSENT corporal punishment. (*SHRUG*)

“…my intuition says that as a Pavlovian technique it would work on some…”

Well… “some” is better than none – at least according to my math. (*WINK*)

“…and fail on others…”

No doubt! But would it WORSEN this groups willingness and ability to disrupt overall schooling of the student body as a group? And even if it did, when taking into account the “some” it’ll work on, overall what’s the end result? When all’s said and done, will corporal punishment make the OVERALL situation better or worse in terms of being able to educate the most children to the utmost degree?

“…nothing more than classical conditioning.”

So…? “Classical conditioning” or not all I’m interested in is the best possible result for the majority of the student population and society.

“So no – way too messy.”

OK. We agree to disagree. Put in “your corner” let’s put up a check mark on the “no proposed change/solution” side of the tally, shall we? Fair enough…???

“The state taketh away and giveth back on a recurring basis.”

Yeah… and sometimes the state even errs on the side of abusing its authority. Still, for the purposes of our discussion I believe the state doesn’t act quickly and firmly enough.

“Draconian measures would have to be adopted including voiding of all parental rights and cradle to adulthood state responsibility for the child.”

Yep. You’re right. I’m all for expanding physical facilities and human infrastructure for dealing with the logical result of my proposed policies. Will it cost money? Sure. But will it save money in the long term… that’s what I’d bet on.

“If you would consider that, then I would just as soon consider restricting parenthood and births.”

(*SIGH*) Yeah… but now we’re into “King Dave” and “King Bill” mode. I’m talking about what’s actually possible – at least theoretically possible – within the confines of our system. Hey… I’m talking “back to the past;” you’re talking rewriting the Constitution – at least that’s what it would probably take. (You agree, right…???)

I mean, hell… you can assume I couldn’t get my “plan” past the Courts; but there’s no chance whatsoever that you could get your proposal put into law.

Back to your statement… “If you would consider that…”

Should I take it that by starting your sentence with “if” that indicates you oppose my idea? Again… your right… but that means another check mark on the “no proposed change/solution” side of the tally. (*SHRUG*)

“We continue to relieve parents of their responsibilities…”

I get it, Dave. It’s your way or nothing. No compromise. If not your action… then no action. We’ll all go down with the ship.

Dave. With respect… I’m trying to deal with the situation and the goalposts as it and they exist. You? You keep on telling me what you’d like to see in terms of behavior, but you’re proposing no viable plan to get us there.

(*SHRUG*)

BILL

P.S. – Hey… before you reply to me if that’s your intention…

WHAT THE HELL EVER HAPPENED TO TOM GIBBON – the author of this thread post?

Does it bother you that by and large Frum’s “contributors” seem either unwilling or else incapable of joining us in these discussions which were started in response to THEIR original posts?

It bugs me. In fact, if I were ever in a position to give any of these clowns a paid gig I wouldn’t – simply based upon their bad attitude. Ignoring the “grass roots” of New Majority isn’t the way to build New Majority. That’s my opinion anyway.

Does it work? Spare the rod, spoil the child? For some it might, but is it a proven enough technique to warrant its widespread/universal use? I haven’t seen enough data to say one way or the other. However, my intuition says that as a Pavlovian technique it would work on some and fail on others, but remains nothing more than classical conditioning. Plus, we would have to have this great debate on what’s constitutes abuse, torture, including paddle sizes, blow velocity, appropriate striking locations – certainly a big mess. So no – way too messy.

barker13 // Jul 12, 2009 at 11:25 am – State authority over children when parents fail.

Well we have that now. The state taketh away and giveth back on a recurring basis. Draconian measures would have to be adopted including voiding of all parental rights and cradle to adulthood state responsibility for the child.

If you would consider that, then I would just as soon consider restricting parenthood and births. If you can not or will not exercise your responsibilities, then you should not have children. I am in favor of a child licence. Pass a course and demonstrate that you are a responsible adult and you can obtain a licence for a child. Demonstrate responsible child rearing, and obtain a permit for another. Produce a plan on how you will provide a stable home for multiple children perhaps you can have more children. Become pregnant without a licence, then either the state takes the child at birth or the pregnancy is terminated.

It is harder to adopt a pet in my county than it is to have children. Pet adoption includes significant paperwork and the potential for home visits to ensure there is proper environment for a pet. Would that we would spend as much attention to having children.

We continue to relieve parents of their responsibilities and levy no penalties for having multiple children with no visible means of support except for state assistance. So, no I am not an advocate of state control and authority unless it’s complete and results in the terminatation of all parental rights and contact with the child.

Mid. I read your comments and you were right on target…

Until…

“We cannot ask the schools to do what the parents can not or will not do.”

But we MUST!

We’re all agreed that many parents are unfit. (*SHRUG*)

So when the home is dysfunctional… WHAT? What’s your solution?

“The error that the system and society continues to make is absolve the parents and the communities of responsibility.”

OK. So, again… WHAT’S your solution…???

Mid… for Christ’s sake… you get a solid “A” for a well written post. Great work outlining “the three alternatives.” Now finish the job! What’s you SOLUTION…???

“Until the parents man up, nothing that system or society does will ameliorate the problem.”

Mid. That’s not a solution – that’s a slogan.

Here… let’s try it this way: Address my Jul 11, 2009 at 1:16 pm post and also my Jul 12, 2009 at 11:25 am post.

Hey. I’m not saying you have to agree with any of my suggested remedies. (Though I would like to know where you agree – specifically – and where you disagree – specifically.) More than that, though, more than “reacting” to anything I or anyone else has written… what are YOUR proposals…???

BILL

“Gee Bill, it’s the weekend; I must have left my fascist problem-solving hat at work.”

Why not stimulate the economy by running out to the store and buying another hat for home wear then?

(*SMILE*)

Hey… btw, Orgman… congrats! You’ve managed to set a new record: Throwing out the old “fascist” label in your very first sentence!

(*CLAP-CLAP-CLAP*)

Mom must be so proud of you…

(*WINK*)

“Seriously though, how do you figure that the families and parents are the ones in control of the system?”

Because it’s the voters who elect the politicians who write the laws and the school boards which set policy. Between school policies and laws it seems to me that you can deal with the discipline problems.

(*SHRUG*)

“Being a federalist and all, I’m not big on Big government or bureaucracy.”

Huh…??? (I believe you meant to write, “Being an idiot and all…”)

What’s federalism have to do with school district policies and STATE laws…???

Seriously… are you just grabbing words out of a dictionary and adding them to your posts…???

Here. This may help: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/federalist

If not… try this: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/federalism

(*SNORT*) (*GUFFAW*)

“I actually wasn’t intending to offer a solution…”

Well… you succeeded in not offering a solution. Congrats! Dad must be proud too!

(Lord… where do these frigg’n people COME from…?!?!)

BILL