Comments on: Does Mark Levin Know?

By: barker13

barker13 — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:32:23 +0000

Re: Mlindroo; 12:34 AM --

"Well, with all due respect..."

On a serious note... same here.

"...frequent claims about "American Exceptionalism" made by conservatives are more than a little overblown."

Fair enough. No doubt you could provide plenty of examples where I'd be the first to agree with you.

"...they might just as well apply to other immigrant nations such as Australia."

Well... no. Perhaps one day. Not now though and certainly not in the past.

Again... tied into the concept (my concept) of "American Exceptionalism" is the impact it (and We) have had on the world.

"There is a very simple reason why the US is a superpower..."

(*AMUSED SNORT*)

Why the 13 Colonies? Why not "America" as out of the physical and psychological profile of Spain... Portugal... France... Holland...?

You brought up Australia. I'll bring up Argentina. Working from memory, pre-WW-2 (and during) Argentina was ranked right up there with Australia (perhaps above) and even Canada (again... perhaps above) as a modern, successful "first world" nation. While Buenos Aires is still one hell of an impressive city and I highly recommend it as a tourist destination, Argentina is hardly in the same international league with Canada and Australia today. (*SHRUG*)

(BTW, as you may know, Argentina has a very interesting demographic...)

In any case, no, there's simply - undeniably - something "extraordinary" and "exceptionally exceptional" (*GRIN*) about America and our history.

It's not simply a racial thing... an ethnic thing... a matter of whether more individuals go to "Church" rather than "Temple" or "Who, what, where, when" most Americans worship (past or present). No. The American creed is inclusive of this history, but not bound by any one facet, but rather by the whole package who "We" are today coming out of who "We" were yesterday... yesteryear... yesterdecades... yestercenturies.

There's really nothing comparable to the historical American experience and it seems to me ridiculous to believe - even if only to one extent or another - that "We" as a country became who we are by accident... by luck of the draw.

No. There was a specific "recipe." It came together partly spontaneously, but still... it was a particular recipe even if not "planned."

"I bet other western capitalist nations such as Australia and Canada would also be superpowers, if they were situated in a similarly favorable location on the planet."

You're kidding... right? I mean... Canada *is* situated in a... er... pretty damned "similar" (*LAUGHING OUT LOUD*) location on the planet.

(Hmm... any reason you leave out Mexico...???)

(*CHUCKLING*)

"I don't buy the line you cannot have a successful society unless the defense budget is at least x%, the federal government accounts for at most y% of the GNP, tax rates for the wealthy are less than y% etc.."

On that we agree!

(*HANDSHAKE*)

BILL

By: mlindroo

mlindroo — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 04:34:28 +0000

: Anyway... what exactly was your point...??? What's your
: bottom line?

Well, with all due respect, my point is that the frequent claims about "American Exceptionalism" made by conservatives are more than a little overblown. You cite several things, and they might just as well apply to other immigrant nations such as Australia.
---
There is a very simple reason why the US is a superpower: it is a large country having access to vast natural resources united by a powerful federal government! Democracy and capitalism are of course other key factors (witness the failure of the USSR), but they are not fundamentally unique to America. I bet other western capitalist nations such as Australia and Canada would also be superpowers, if they were situated in a similarly favorable location on the planet. BTW, I don't buy the line you cannot have a successful society unless the defense budget is at least x%, the federal government accounts for at most y% of the GNP, tax rates for the wealthy are less than y% etc.. And all the percentages are supposedly set in stone: if some Democrat adjusts the top tax rate we're supposed to believe chaos and madness will automatically follow...

MARCU$

By: barker13

barker13 — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:02:22 +0000

Re: Mlindroo; 10:54 PM --

"Um, Barker13, best and brightest? Do you really think that most of those who migrated to the US duing the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries somehow were the most successful...?

Hiya, Marcus. (*GRIN*)

No. They were the ones who were most hungry (sometimes literally) desperate and who brought to America their determination to succeed, and as they succeeded their success brought America success.

Now you can say the same for immigrants today - the unskilled particularly - but the problem is that in the age of the welfare state with political correctness (not to mention communications technology and cheap, easy travel) conflicting with the goal of assimilation into the American creed, illegal immigration is a net drag on American society.

A growing, industrializing America (growing physically, growing in economic and political strength, growing as a world power) required and benefited from mass immigration of the unskilled by willing, modern America simply doesn't.

"In fact, the have-nots are the ones who left for the most part."

Again... back then the "have nots" were expected to sink or swim. They were also expected to assimilate within one generation. Without the social safety net provided by citizen taxpayers the stresses on the system caused by immigration were far less deleterious than exist today.

Anyway... what exactly was your point...??? What's your bottom line? Not being snarky... it's just that I'm trying to relate your response to my previous comments to the original posting and thread development.

BILL

By: A.B.

A.B. — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:09:47 +0000

Oh, finally! Someone else who remembers that, thanks, DF. Very droll, BTW.

By: mlindroo

mlindroo — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:54:35 +0000

> ...built upon a diversity of the best and brightest from other
> lands and cultures.

> There's only one America and thus one "American
> Exceptionalism."

Um, Barker13, best and brightest? Do you really think that most of those who migrated to the US duing the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries somehow were the most successful..? In fact, the have-nots are the ones who left for the most part ?).

White-collar immigration of entrepreneurial types from Western Europe, Asia or Latin America looking for top class opportunities is a relatively new phenomenon.

MARCU$

By: barker13

barker13 — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:03:59 +0000

Re: Rel; 12:11 PM --

"Are you saying that an American cannot acknowledge exceptional contributions of some other nations..."

Nope. I'm saying... er... what I originally said.

"Perhaps the problem here is that you (and David) are reading "British" and "Greek" as equal to "generic other country". That strikes me as odd. When I learned about the history of Western civilization, I learned that these two nations, in particular, were pretty exceptional. I don't think Obama picked them randomly out of a hat."

Ahh... but neither the ancient Greek city states nor Britain were "melting pots," nations built upon a diversity of the best and brightest from other lands and cultures.

There's only one America and thus one "American Exceptionalism." There's simply no such thing as "British Exceptionalism" or even "Ancient Greek Exceptionalism" to compare "American Exceptionalism" to.

BTW... In noting this I'm denigrating neither Athens nor England/Great Britain! Nor am I denigrating any of the other societies/nations ancient or modern that as you correctly point Obama didn't mention.

As you note in spirit without actually saying specifically, ancient Egypt was "exceptional." Ancient Rome... ancient Persia... ancient China... and so on and so forth throughout history throughout the globe.

My point is that these other "exceptionalism" aren't "Exceptionalism" in the sense of "American Exceptionalism."

"The attempt to attack Obama..."

Was I "attacking" Obama...??? I suppose you have the right to call it anything you want, but quite honestly, all I was trying to do was react to what Obama actually said as you provided the transcript.

(*SHRUG*)

BILL

By: Rel

Rel — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:11:32 +0000

barker13 -

Are you saying that an American cannot acknowledge exceptional contributions of some other nations to the development of Western civilization, and honor the pride that citizens of those nations feel about these contributions, without it being a negation of American exceptionalism?

Note that he didn't speak of "all nations", nor use as examples Madagascar or Borneo. Nor even Belgium or France. He took the opportunity to honor two European nations to which we owe much of our ethical and legal heritage. Nations whose people are (I hope) justifiably proud of this heritage.

Perhaps the problem here is that you (and David) are reading "British" and "Greek" as equal to "generic other country". That strikes me as odd. When I learned about the history of Western civilization, I learned that these two nations, in particular, were pretty exceptional. I don't think Obama picked them randomly out of a hat.

The attempt to attack Obama over this point continues to seem rather strange to me.

By: mlindroo

mlindroo — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:02:39 +0000

"American exceptionalism" seems to be some subjective non-measurable quantity that US conservatives fervently believe in but nonetheless does not consistently show up in country-vs-country comparisons. For example, what country has the world's lowest taxes? Most social mobility? The most political freedom? The most business friendly laws and most competitive economy? Highest % of self-identified "optimistic", "happy" or deeply religious people [the correct answer, IIRC: the Philippines....]? In all cases, you will find a number of other countries (most of them industrialized capitalist nations) doing about equally well as the U.S.. Is a place like Switzerland really an anti-capitalist noncompetitive statist decadent hellhole??
----
As Frum correctly notes, the origin of "American exceptionalism" relates to the absence of a major openly "socialist" party. Even that may be overblown: I have not checked the stats but I am willing to bet that the public sector in 21st century America, income redistribution, tax levels etc. are far higher now than they were in Old Europe back in 1906 when Werner Sombart asked "Why is there no socialism in the United States?".

MARCU$

By: barker13

barker13 — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:49:32 +0000

Re: Sinz54; 7:40 AM --

(*THUMBS UP*)

Excellent points and observations, Sinz.

BILL

By: barker13

barker13 — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:47:41 +0000

Re: Rel; 7:20 AM --

Quoting Obama: ""I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism."

If that's not a clear denial of American Exceptionalism (in the common positive sense) than I don't know how much clearer the President could have made his point.

Well... I suppose he could have said... "My fellow Men and Women of Earth... America is nothing special..."

(*CHUCKLE*)

"I think that we have a core set of values that are enshrined in our Constitution, in our body of law, in our democratic practices, in our belief in free speech and equality, that, though imperfect, are exceptional."

BETTER... (*SMILE*)... but why is it that I read between the lines and get the strong feeling that Obama believes the word "exceptional" to really mean "exceptional in the sense that all nations are exceptional in their own way?"

As to "equality," from what I think I know about Obama's worldview, his definition of equality is linked to outcome much more than my definition - which is linked to opportunity.

"Now, the fact that I am very proud of my country and I think that we've got a whole lot to offer the world does not lessen my interest in recognizing the value and wonderful qualities of other countries..."

(*GRIN*) As I pointed out up above... we're ALL "unique." Certainly Obama is not claiming "American values" (however one defines them as opposed to "other" values) are superior.

(*SHRUG*)

Anyway... thanks for posting Obama's remarks.

BILL