Comments on: Did Gop Lose Because Of Bush? Or Because Conservatism Is No Longer Relevant? http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:50:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant/comment-page-1#comment-44231 sinz54 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:38:21 +0000 #comment-44231 larryo: When angry liberals call for Bush administration officials to be prosecuted, they're usually talking about alleged Bush violations of civil liberties and alleged "war crimes" with respect to the War on Terror. And that kind of stuff is very, very political. Because a war against entirely non-uniformed civilian terrorists is unprecedented in modern American history. There's no common consensus on the legalities; conservative and liberal legal scholars have been furiously debating that for years. (That's why several such cases went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.) All those Americans--and they aren't all Republicans--who in the aftermath of 9-11 wanted the Bush Administration to do whatever was necessary to prevent another terrorist attack, are going to regard punishing Bushies for their actions to fight al-Qaeda as political revenge. If you Democrats truly believe that the Bushies committed war crimes or civil liberties violations, try convincing the other half of the nation that what Bush did in Iraq was worse than what Truman did to Japan. Try convincing the other half of the nation that what Bush did to the terrorists in Gitmo was worse than what FDR did to the German saboteurs captured by the FBI during World War II, or what Eisenhower did to the German saboteurs captured by the U.S. Army during the Battle of the Bulge. For starters, how about trying to convince me first. larryo: When angry liberals call for Bush administration officials to be prosecuted, they’re usually talking about alleged Bush violations of civil liberties and alleged “war crimes” with respect to the War on Terror. And that kind of stuff is very, very political. Because a war against entirely non-uniformed civilian terrorists is unprecedented in modern American history. There’s no common consensus on the legalities; conservative and liberal legal scholars have been furiously debating that for years. (That’s why several such cases went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.) All those Americans–and they aren’t all Republicans–who in the aftermath of 9-11 wanted the Bush Administration to do whatever was necessary to prevent another terrorist attack, are going to regard punishing Bushies for their actions to fight al-Qaeda as political revenge. If you Democrats truly believe that the Bushies committed war crimes or civil liberties violations, try convincing the other half of the nation that what Bush did in Iraq was worse than what Truman did to Japan. Try convincing the other half of the nation that what Bush did to the terrorists in Gitmo was worse than what FDR did to the German saboteurs captured by the FBI during World War II, or what Eisenhower did to the German saboteurs captured by the U.S. Army during the Battle of the Bulge. For starters, how about trying to convince me first.

]]> By: suey http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant/comment-page-1#comment-45600 suey Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:48:08 +0000 #comment-45600 Quote the author " and to create tensions within the Democratic coalition that can be exploited. Time to start thinking up concrete--and relevant--ways to do that." Why not just get some decent new ideas instead. Oh! that would require some thought and intelligence. You amaze me. Lets exploit and ferment division within the democrats rather than persuade the electorate with the right solutions to their problems. Or present decent alternative policy and government that actually works. And you wonder why you lost. Really. Quote the author ” and to create tensions within the Democratic coalition that can be exploited. Time to start thinking up concrete–and relevant–ways to do that.”

Why not just get some decent new ideas instead. Oh! that would require some thought and intelligence. You amaze me. Lets exploit and ferment division within the democrats rather than persuade the electorate with the right solutions to their problems. Or present decent alternative policy and government that actually works. And you wonder why you lost. Really.

]]> By: senorlechero http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant/comment-page-1#comment-45095 senorlechero Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:28:56 +0000 #comment-45095 good comment inthemiddle. I wish more liberals thought like you on the matter. good comment inthemiddle. I wish more liberals thought like you on the matter.

]]> By: MarkG555 http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant/comment-page-1#comment-42560 MarkG555 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:15:24 +0000 #comment-42560 I buy the concept, with one exception: any new enti-tlements Obama puts in place will be nearly impossible to simply cancel. I buy the concept, with one exception: any new enti-tlements Obama puts in place will be nearly impossible to simply cancel.

]]> By: InTheMiddle12 http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant/comment-page-1#comment-48397 InTheMiddle12 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:51:30 +0000 #comment-48397 I'd rather take the long view historic perspective and recognize this is a political cycle, which has gone on since America's inception. A cycle that swings from right to left to right to left again. This is a swing to the left. One can over analyze this or get into odd defensive and offensive postures, but the bottom line is this is how society evolves in the USA, and I'm grateful for it. The Dems spent the last 20+ years basically in the wilderness, with the exception of Clinton's 8. Now it's the GOPs turn to be thrust out to contemplate their positions and reform their messages. Ask Morris has said in the past, and trust me I think he's generally not very bright but right on this one point, their is a genius to the American electorate. I’d rather take the long view historic perspective and recognize this is a political cycle, which has gone on since America’s inception. A cycle that swings from right to left to right to left again. This is a swing to the left. One can over analyze this or get into odd defensive and offensive postures, but the bottom line is this is how society evolves in the USA, and I’m grateful for it.

The Dems spent the last 20+ years basically in the wilderness, with the exception of Clinton’s 8. Now it’s the GOPs turn to be thrust out to contemplate their positions and reform their messages. Ask Morris has said in the past, and trust me I think he’s generally not very bright but right on this one point, their is a genius to the American electorate.

]]> By: senorlechero http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant/comment-page-1#comment-50030 senorlechero Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:37:27 +0000 #comment-50030 sinz....great points to Larryo. I would just add that GWB did not go after Janet Reno or any other Clinton official for their actions in the Elian Gonzalez case, Waco, or Ruby Ridge, all which were highly political cases where it could have been said laws were clearly violated sinz….great points to Larryo. I would just add that GWB did not go after Janet Reno or any other Clinton official for their actions in the Elian Gonzalez case, Waco, or Ruby Ridge, all which were highly political cases where it could have been said laws were clearly violated

]]> By: larryo http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant/comment-page-1#comment-52072 larryo Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:27:05 +0000 #comment-52072 sinz54 - no, the reason is what suey says it is. These are supposed to be the tough-on-crime guys! What happened to that? Is the Republican definition of "crime" restricted to black teenagers selling crack? More to the point, is the effectiveness of deterrence - the theoretical cornerstone of our criminal law - limited to cases where the decision to prosecute is bipartisan? Prosecution is not done by political parties unless they are under the thumb of Karl Rove. Prosecution is done by prosecutors, w for the most part make their decisions based on facts and law. Where are you on the subject of Monica Goodling politicizing the DOJ? Do you think that was good for the country? sinz54 – no, the reason is what suey says it is. These are supposed to be the tough-on-crime guys! What happened to that?

Is the Republican definition of “crime” restricted to black teenagers selling crack? More to the point, is the effectiveness of deterrence – the theoretical cornerstone of our criminal law – limited to cases where the decision to prosecute is bipartisan?

Prosecution is not done by political parties unless they are under the thumb of Karl Rove. Prosecution is done by prosecutors, w for the most part make their decisions based on facts and law.

Where are you on the subject of Monica Goodling politicizing the DOJ? Do you think that was good for the country?

]]> By: Kaz http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant/comment-page-1#comment-49108 Kaz Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:41:59 +0000 #comment-49108 "They expect people to take care of themselves." There is a growing majority that doesn't believe this. When Obama talks of "responsibility", he means your responsibility to take care of others via the state. He doesn't mean get-your-act-together and take care of yourself. “They expect people to take care of themselves.”

There is a growing majority that doesn’t believe this.

When Obama talks of “responsibility”, he means your responsibility to take care of others via the state. He doesn’t mean get-your-act-together and take care of yourself.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant/comment-page-1#comment-44199 sinz54 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:33:14 +0000 #comment-44199 Larryo: That's not the reason. The reason is that American politics will take a severe blow if members of one party take it upon themselves to prosecute members of the other party for past acts after leaving office. It will be impossible for such an action to not be regarded as pure political vengeance, both by the party affected and by the general public. (Do you deny that vengeance partly motivates you?) That will be catastrophic for the principle of tolerance we have in this country, which keeps our politics from degenerating into what they have in Third World countries. If you want to see "lawbreakers" brought to justice, first appoint a truly BIPARTISAN commission to look into alleged violations of the law before charges are ever brought. If even Republican members agree that charges suld be brought, then so be it. But under no cirstances suld this devolve into "just Democrats prosecuting Bush Administration officials." Larryo: That’s not the reason. The reason is that American politics will take a severe blow if members of one party take it upon themselves to prosecute members of the other party for past acts after leaving office. It will be impossible for such an action to not be regarded as pure political vengeance, both by the party affected and by the general public. (Do you deny that vengeance partly motivates you?) That will be catastrophic for the principle of tolerance we have in this country, which keeps our politics from degenerating into what they have in Third World countries. If you want to see “lawbreakers” brought to justice, first appoint a truly BIPARTISAN commission to look into alleged violations of the law before charges are ever brought. If even Republican members agree that charges suld be brought, then so be it. But under no cirstances suld this devolve into “just Democrats prosecuting Bush Administration officials.”

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/did-gop-lose-because-of-bush-or-because-conservatism-is-no-longer-relevant/comment-page-1#comment-52902 sinz54 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:27:08 +0000 #comment-52902 Even before 1980, Reagan had put forward a coherent philosophy, rooted in American ideals, as to what conservatism suld stand for. His ideas were considered unortdox by the GOP at first, but later adopted as their new philosophy. But Obama has NEVER done the same thing for liberalism. He has never been as eloquent a defender of liberalism as FDR was. If he doesn't, he will be for liberalism was Eisenwer was for conservatism: Possibly a successful president, but not someone w ushered in a lasting political transformation. Even before 1980, Reagan had put forward a coherent philosophy, rooted in American ideals, as to what conservatism suld stand for. His ideas were considered unortdox by the GOP at first, but later adopted as their new philosophy. But Obama has NEVER done the same thing for liberalism. He has never been as eloquent a defender of liberalism as FDR was. If he doesn’t, he will be for liberalism was Eisenwer was for conservatism: Possibly a successful president, but not someone w ushered in a lasting political transformation.

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