The Congressional Budget Office is ever-present in the healthcare debate, especially in the aftermath of the President’s pledges to keep a reform bill under a price tag of $900 billion (over the next ten years) and to not “add a dime” to the deficit now or in the future.
The CBO seemingly blessed a Baucus bill that was kept under the $900 billion line only by the most transparent and dishonest budget trickery. House Democrats seemingly daily announce that their bill is now under the magic line, even though CBO Director Doug Elmendorf had apparently driven a stake in its heart earlier this year by pointing out that it: (a) cost too much, (b) ran near-term deficits, and (c) failed to “bend the cost curve” and thus added to the country’s entitlement burdens.
What is up with the CBO? One day they are damning flawed legislation; the next they are embracing its twin. Is the CBO scoring process simply arbitrary and without foundation? Perhaps so, but let’s first dive a little deeper and give it a fair hearing.
First, it is not the “CBO” scoring process. The process was originally established (along with the Budget Committees in the House and Senate, and the CBO itself) in the Budget Act of 1974. It has been tweaked since numerous times, and CBO has had input all along. But it is far from the case that CBO runs the show.
Instead, the CBO operates wearing a very particular set of handcuffs. To begin, the law says that the CBO cannot offer policy advice. It is literally the case that CBO (in general) and Doug Elmendorf (in particular) cannot simply announce “Gee, that _______ bill is a really irresponsible, wrongheaded, bad idea.” (Fill in ________ with the majority of bills that CBO is asked to analyze.) In the context of the healthcare reform debate, one pivotal moment came when the CBO Director opined to great fanfare that neither the House tri-committee bill nor the Senate committee bill would bend the cost curve. What was lost in the uproar was that he did not send out a press release, blog, or book himself on the Sunday shows. Instead, he was asked point blank by Senate Budget Chairman Kent Conrad.
CBO was used by Senator Conrad to make a point. Let me come back to that.
More recently, the CBO put out its “score” of the Baucus bill indicating that it cost under $900 billion, reduced the deficit over the next ten years, and did not create a new long-run fiscal imbalance. This seemed a bit odd (a euphemism for “completely batshit”) since the bill assumed that doctors would be subjected in two years to a cut in their Medicare reimbursements of over 20 percent. (As we have since seen, dropping this fiction would cost $250 billion, putting the real price tag over $1 trillion.)
It also assumed that future Congresses would steadily reduce Medicare spending to the tune of one-half trillion dollars, something that has never (did I mention never) happened. Instead, previous attempts of this sort (the 1997 Balanced Budget Act) were quickly reversed. And you would think that CBO might have mentioned the schizophrenic sleaziness of creating a new, large health entitlement spending program by promising to cut the previous large health entitlement spending program that had never been reined in. Nope.
You might have looked through the CBO score and noticed that the new entitlement program is projected to grow at 8 percent annually over the long term – exactly the same rate as in the CBO score of the properly-denigrated House bill. But CBO did not mention that the Baucus bill did not bend the cost curve. What’s up with that?
Finally, you may have been amused that the core of the funding mechanism was set of fees on the medical industry and taxes on “Cadillac” insurance plans that would ultimately impose $400 billion in new costs, roughly 90 percent of which would be borne by those making under $200,000. These new revenues were projected to grow at over 10 percent annually over the long term. But CBO said nothing about the base hypocrisy of campaigning for control of the nation’s finances by promising to exempt those making under $250,000 from the cost of their fantasies and then whacking the same people right on the schnozzola. Not to mention committing to continue to do so at a rate exceeding the wildest projections of their possible wage growth. CBO did not even footnote the joke.
You may see a pattern developing. The Senate Finance Committee undertakes political economy malpractice, but the CBO does not mention it. There is a good reason: It can’t. The statutes governing the budget process require that CBO compute the budgetary consequences of the written proposal. It cannot judge the intent of the current Congress, the likely actions of a future Congress, or the virtues of the proposals. Its job is to elucidate the budgetary consequences of the proposal, bill or law as written.
Put simply, if the Senate Finance Committee drafts a budgetary fantasy, CBO will have to score it. If I had a CBO, I could send it my plan for next year: make $5 million a month and buy a 50-room mansion with a national debt clock on every wall. I’m sure they would be able to say, “yep, this balances”. But that doesn’t mean it will happen. The same is true of the current healthcare reform fantasies.
As a footnote, this explains why CBO takes pains to stress that estimates are “preliminary” until final legislative language is available. This is not evidence of wimpiness or hedging. It is evidence of the wisdom garnered over years of living through the mismatch between Congressional intent and the ability of lawmakers to draft statutes that achieve their budgetary dreams.
So the bottom line is this: policy is made by the Congress, not CBO. If the Baucus score looks at odds with reality, that’s because CBO was used to deliver the score that it did. Those, particularly responsible Democrats in the Senate, who want a realistic assessment should do what Senator Conrad did. Ask.
What would the Baucus bill cost if the Medicare “doc fix” is included? Would it still balance? What happens if campaign promises must actually mean something and the fees and excise tax go away? Does it still balance? Does it bend the cost curve?
There are voices that will argue that the problem is CBO. They will point to the fact that budget projections don’t always turn out to be right. They will argue that even if the scores are numerically right, they are economically or politically misleading. As a former Director, I may be drinking the Kool-Aid, but I think these miss the point. The CBO is one of many instruments of policy-making in a political environment. It is the obligation of the elected curators of that process to use CBO to paint a complete picture of the consequences of policies.
It is not, and should not be, in the power of CBO to do so.
82 responses so far
1 charlottepogue // Oct 26, 2009 at 12:36 am
You can get instant medical insurance at the lowest price from http://bit.ly/39pFJx
2 joedee1969 // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:18 am
This is why who goes to congress is important and why this gay thing needs to be addressed Mr. Governor:
http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/10/charlie-crist-and-the-film-outrage/
3 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 9:15 am
Basically Eakin’s position is that while the CBO is producing answers Republicans like, it should be listened to and when it isn’t it’s misguided or being manipulated. That’s because Eakins is a partisan Republican and vehemently opposed to healthcare reform as his numerous postings attest. I don’t doubt for a moment that the process is less than perfect particularly when you’re trying to cost something with as many variables as reforming healthcare, or pricing the prescription drug benefit Mr Eakins, but I’m sure they give it their best shot. Eakins is just against healthcare reform.
4 MI-GOPer // Oct 26, 2009 at 9:49 am
Basically ottoBS will reduce anything written here by any pro-GOP writer as one of three things: 1) this writer is a Republican, so don’t believe him (which seems queer to caution given this is a GOP site… oh, wait, ottoBS is just talking to his fellow-Democrat trolls); 2) the writer is biased against our Messiah Obama, so discount anything the writer says and please report him to the White House Thug Operation; or 3) the Republicans used to do this all the time, now they complain when Democrats do it.
Oh wait, there are three other variations: 1) it’s Bush’s fault; 2) it’s Cheney’s fault; or 3) look, over there, let’s blame Palin.
OttoBS really earns his title around here.
5 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 10:47 am
mi-goper // Oct 26, 2009 at 9:49 am
“1) this writer is a Republican, so don’t believe him”
…….Eakins is a Republican opposed to healthcare reform……and as with most Republicans opposed to healthcare reform (Death panels, socialism, soviet gulags anyone) they are inclined to tell the odd porky and/or shade the truth
“2) the writer is biased against our Messiah Obama, so discount anything the writer says and please report him to the White House Thug Operation;”
…….Another one of those slightly loopy Republican inventions………is it a disease or something like swine flu
“3) the Republicans used to do this all the time, now they complain when Democrats do it.”
……..And didn’t they?
“OttoBS really earns his title around here.”
……..You missed out the V’s………you should ask any British friends what that means!
6 Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 10:56 am
mi-goper, I’ve always thought that the “v” is from the German “von” and “bs” is the well-known American abbreviation.
His stuff does get tiresome.
7 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 11:16 am
Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 10:56 am
“His stuff does get tiresome.”
………..For the factually retarded any mental activity is no doubt wearying………V is indeed von in German but it also has that British connotation which is so appropriate in this case
8 Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 11:32 am
otto, yeah, “factually retarded”, “mental activity no doubt wearing”… yak, yak, yak.
Keep talkin’, otto. That’s what you’re good at.
9 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 11:44 am
Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 11:32 am
‘Keep talkin’, otto. That’s what you’re good at.’
…….Pleased to hear you recognize it…….having some familiarity with the facts and reality is very helpful I find……you should try it sometime.
10 Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Otto, old chap, [mein Kumpel], or whatever, [oder was], while it is actually interesting to get the opinions of a left winger and receive promptly the latest Democrat’s talking points and White House spin, your snark and name calling of late fails to amuse, inform, or persuade.
11 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 12:32 pm
otto: “2) the writer is biased against our Messiah Obama, so discount anything the writer says and please report him to the White House Thug Operation;”
…….Another one of those slightly loopy Republican inventions………is it a disease or something like swine flu
More a projection that’s a flip side of the other projection – BDS.
After reflexively attacking Clinton for everything over 8 years, any criticism of Bush in the last decade was labelled “BDS”. Hell – talk about WMDs not being found in Iraq, and you were accused of BDS. Talk about billion dollar pallets of money disappearing in Iraq, or the horrible mismanagement of the Iraq Reconstruction efforts, and you were accused of BDS. Katrina? BDS. Failure to capture Bin Laden? BDS. Economic meltdown in 2008 had anything to do with Bush running the country for 8 years? BDS.
The mirror image of this was virtual silence while Bush was in office over any of his transgressions against conservatism. Oh, you’d hear the occassional carping … but Dick Cheney could pronounce “Reagan proved that deficits don’t matter”, and the GOP largely stood silent.
Now, if a Dem defends Obama against a GOP critic, it’s not because they agree with Obama on the issue … but because they look to Obama uncritically as a “Messiah”. You know – someone you would compromise your most deep seated principles for. Someone like, say, “doubledebt Bush” ?
12 sinz54 // Oct 26, 2009 at 12:37 pm
“ottovbs”‘ attempts to shoot the messenger notwithstanding:
Many other observers, including in the press, have pointed out that the budget of BaucusCare depends on sharp cuts to Medicare, cuts that have never happened before and will never happen in the future. Seniors vote in large numbers in every election.
Also note that the liberal proponents of single-payer, who are the new political allies of “ottovbs”, NEVER wanted health care reform to be financed the way Baucus is doing it.
What can I say. Politicians of both parties continue to lie about the real cost of health care. Liberals care only about universal coverage, cost be damned. Conservatives don’t care about health care reform at all, so they defend the current system as cost-effective modulo a few tweaks.
13 MI-GOPer // Oct 26, 2009 at 1:33 pm
sinz54 clarifies: ““ottovbs”‘ attempts to shoot the messenger” –otto can’t; he’s shooting blanks.
For instance, Dr Holtz-Eakin isn’t against health care reform, as otto and other Democrat trolls here like to maintain that all GOPers are against hc reform. They aren’t; we aren’t. It’s simply a different priority– medical mal reform, med product liability overhaul, break the Blues monopoly, properly fund govt health care programs, incent greater state innovation on medicare/aid, stop unions from providing hc insurance, etc. No need to toss out a system that well serves over 85% of the population.
But that’s just the standard red herring of Democrats selling that ol’ fear game. They honed the skill to a near art form with GOP Soc Sec reform opposition… and it’s back, same old same old. Paint the GOP as either “No Health Care Reform” or “Dangerous Health Care Reform that will hurt Democrat trial lawyers and unions”.
This was an article about Holtz-Eakin pointing out that, as a former CBO Director, the CBO shouldn’t be used as the “decider” on an issue –it’s there to provide ALL members of Congress with a congressional institution’s best estimate of the economic/fiscal impact of legislation.
What is important about Holtz-Eakin’s points is that, unlike armchair quarterbacks like otto, he knows what he’s talking about… it’s why he thinks an incremental approach to controling health care costs and improving access is better –skip the Big Fix mentality because Congress never, ever gets that right… on the first, second, third, fourth or fifth tries. He’s watched the sausage get made; it ain’t pretty and it’s almost never sausage.
But then, otto won’t talk about the article’s thrust because he’s just here to shoot blanks, shoot the messenger, shoot the GOP, Bash Bush, smear Palin, chortle and phlem up the place because they’re tired of him at MoveOn.org.
And Republicans and moderates tolerate his mindless banter… his peers won’t.
14 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 1:36 pm
stop unions from providing hc insurance
WTF? Where did this one come from?
I have a hard time understanding the basis, except perhaps for reflexive anti-unionism.
15 SpartacusIsNotDead // Oct 26, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Sinz wrote: “Many other observers, including in the press, have pointed out that the budget of BaucusCare depends on sharp cuts to Medicare, cuts that have never happened before and will never happen in the future.”
You’re right, and any honest discussion about the likelihood of future Medicare cuts should remind people about the GOP hypocrisy on this issue. Obama has proposed major cuts to Medicare, which the GOP has long desired. Yet, for political gain, the GOP demonized Obama for this instead of trying to develop a deal on cutting Medicare. Holtz-Eakin just about all of the other conservative commentators have failed to point out this hypocrisy.
The failure to highlight this hypocrisy will reward dishonesty and make it less likely that we will ever solve this problem. For this reason, Otto is absolutely right to question the honesty and sincerity of Holtz-Eakin.
16 MI-GOPer // Oct 26, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Balcone, no surprise, gets it wrong again (sigh):
““2) the writer is biased against our Messiah Obama, so discount anything the writer says and please report him to the White House Thug Operation;”
…….Another one of those slightly loopy Republican inventions………is it a disease or something like swine flu?”
Not at all, balcone. Otto and the other Democrat trolls here were supporters and cheered on the Messiah Obama when his thug cronies decided to “take the battle to the opponents”, “call out those who mislead”, “report “fishy stories” about ObamaCare”, etc. Messiah Obama started that theme whilst standing high above the masses in Denver, greek god-like and ready for worship in the Temple of Democrats.
It isn’t a GOP invention –in fact, George Bush took a lot of heat for 8 yrs from the some more partisan hotheads and conservative talk radio hosts who thought he should be “roughing it up” with liberal Democrats and he wouldn’t demean the Presidency to engage in partisan, political thuggery. But then, Bush 43 wasn’t from Chicago and didn’t learn politics at the elbow of radical anarchists –but Messiah Obama sure did.
Not an invention… just a fair reflection of how low the WH has slummed in order to get their proposals enacted… no gutter too low for them, no slime not worth throwing. I thought Democrats had reached low ebb with Clinton using the Oval Office for sexual predation… Obama has that beat nearly every day and it’s why his polling numbers continue to drop, drop, drop. Today, 52% of voters disapprove of his performance according to Rasmussen 10/26.
But you stay on that line about some new vast right wing conspiracy, balcones… it sure worked for Hillary Clinton, the formerly important and formerly powerful Secy of State who’s been neutered by the WH.
17 MI-GOPer // Oct 26, 2009 at 1:53 pm
sparty-is-brain-dead piggybacks with this perfect gem of projection… “The failure to highlight this hypocrisy will reward dishonesty…”
Need we note that dishonesty is what won the Oval Office for Obama? Need we note that NancyBoTox ran against GOPers for yrs on a line about “culture of corruption” only to become Speaker and have the most corrupt, most foul, most self-serving group of Democrats as her peers… and she won’t lift a finger to bring them to justice? Need we note that Obama is the first modern day president to have relied on organized voter fraud to get elected?
To suggest GOPers are dishonest is the ultimate projection from a Democrat troll, sparty-is-brain-dead.
18 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Not at all, balcone. Otto and the other Democrat trolls here were supporters and cheered on the Messiah Obama when his thug cronies decided to “take the battle to the opponents”, “call out those who mislead”, “report “fishy stories” about ObamaCare”, etc. Messiah Obama started that theme whilst standing high above the masses in Denver, greek god-like and ready for worship in the Temple of Democrats.
So does standing up for oneself make one a Messiah?
That’s a pretty low standard.
Seems pretty clear to me. There are organizations out there which have been intentionally mischaracterizing Obama’s positions. He’s decided to call them out publicly, and challenge them to a higher standard of accuracy.
Personally, I expect more from my Messiah than simply a call for accurate reporting. But your milage may vary.
It isn’t a GOP invention –in fact, George Bush took a lot of heat for 8 yrs from the some more partisan hotheads and conservative talk radio hosts who thought he should be “roughing it up” with liberal Democrats and he wouldn’t demean the Presidency to engage in partisan, political thuggery.
Out of curiousity, do you know how many interviews GW Bush gave to the NY Times while he was President?
At the same time, do you know how many times he hosted media events at the White House which were exclusively open to conservative media personalities?
And I’m still waiting for someone to tell me ONE time when Fox News conducted a serious investigation of a Republican politician with any leadership role whatsoever. That would be a reasonable proof that they are in fact a news organization, and not an arm of the Republican Party.
Today, 52% of voters disapprove of his performance according to Rasmussen 10/26.
True, because Obama has had a very short leash among Democrats for a “Messiah”. A substantial number of progressives see Guantanamo still open, see us escalating involvement in Afghanistan, see Obama equivocating on a public option for healthcare, and are fairly upset about it.
19 MI-GOPer // Oct 26, 2009 at 1:59 pm
balcones asks: “stop unions from providing hc insurance? WTF? Where did this one come from?”
OK, loosen that tinfoil hat of your’s balcones… it’s called a labor union, it’s found in nearly all 50 states and 43 other jurisdictions… they represent teachers in public education… they have medical insurance programs that they blackmail and coerce school boards to accept in order to avoid strikes, work stoppages, etc.
Gheesh, you’d think far Left trolls with as much experience as you claim to have wouldn’t be so quick to forget the 3rd largest union in America are teachers’ unions. Oh, wait… that’s right… real Democrats don’t think teacher unions count.
WTF is right…. as in WTF is wrong with your brain?
20 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 1:59 pm
mi-goper Need we note that Obama is the first modern day president to have relied on organized voter fraud to get elected?
Proving yourself a non-serious participant in the discussion.
21 MI-GOPer // Oct 26, 2009 at 2:02 pm
balcones spins: “So does standing up for oneself make one a Messiah?”
Ahh, the War on Fox, the War on Medicine, the War on Bipartisanship, the War on USCC, the War on Talk Radio, the War on Insurance providers, the War on ________.
Like a whirling dervish, only you can reach the higher altered state of consciousness by calling Obama’s thuggery “standing up for oneself”.
Obama’s got like a dozen petty partisan PR wars running and yet he’s still losing the two real wars that Geo Bush was winning! Ouch.
22 MI-GOPer // Oct 26, 2009 at 2:04 pm
balcones? loosen that tinfoil hat now… it’s called A C O R N and it was closely aligned with SEIU… I think Barry O was a community organizer and sometime hired gun for ACORN, no?
Their #1 program of assistance to the Democrats: Voter Fraud.
23 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 12:12 pm
” the latest Democrat’s talking points and White House spin, your snark and name calling of late fails to amuse, inform, or persuade.”
………I don’t post here in the hope of persuading lampshades or the factually retarded…..but to expose their distortions and ridicule their more obvious lunacies…….it’s provides me with a bit of mental stimulus and some mild amusement.
24 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 2:16 pm
“11 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 12:32 pm
otto: “2) the writer is biased against our Messiah Obama, so discount anything the writer says and please report him to the White House Thug Operation;”
…….Another one of those slightly loopy Republican inventions………is it a disease or something like swine flu
More a projection that’s a flip side of the other projection – BDS.”
………….you wouldn’t regard talk of Messiah Obama and White House thug operations as slightly loopy inventions……I think I would
25 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 2:24 pm
mi-goper // Oct 26, 2009 at 1:33 pm
sinz54 clarifies: ““ottovbs”‘ attempts to shoot the messenger” –otto can’t; he’s shooting blanks.
“For instance, Dr Holtz-Eakin isn’t against health care reform, as otto and other Democrat trolls here like to maintain that all GOPers are against hc reform. They aren’t; we aren’t. It’s simply a different priority– medical mal reform, med product liability overhaul, break the Blues monopoly, properly fund govt health care programs, incent greater state innovation on medicare/aid, stop unions from providing hc insurance, etc. No need to toss out a system that well serves over 85% of the population.’
………So why weren’t all these accomplished during eight years of Republican rule?…….let’s hope you’re using blanks the next time you shoot yourself in the foot.
mi-goper // Oct 26, 2009 at 2:02 pm
“by calling Obama’s thuggery “standing up for oneself”.
Obama’s got like a dozen petty partisan PR wars running and yet he’s still losing the two real wars that Geo Bush was winning! Ouch.”
……..So we’ve been winning the war in Afghanistan for the last eight years….twice as long as the second world war …………and we’ve still got twice as many troops in Iraq as we have in Afghanistan and our American soldiers are “loosing” the war there……the reality is both have been fiascos for years that we have to find some way to extricate ourselves from with minimal damage to US interests.
26 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 2:31 pm
“16 mi-goper // Oct 26, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Not an invention… just a fair reflection of how low the WH has slummed in order to get their proposals enacted… no gutter too low for them, no slime not worth throwing. I thought Democrats had reached low ebb with Clinton using the Oval Office for sexual predation… Obama has that beat nearly every day and it’s why his polling numbers continue to drop, drop, drop. Today, 52% of voters disapprove of his performance according to Rasmussen 10/26.”
……..So why did the WAPO poll have him at 57% approval…….the entire world knows that the Ras polls are somewhat dubious…..so look at the pollster average to get around the poll shopping by either side and the last time I looked he was in the mid fifties
27 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Ahh, the War on Fox, the War on Medicine, the War on Bipartisanship, the War on USCC, the War on Talk Radio, the War on Insurance providers, the War on ________.
If someone propogandistically labels everything you do as a “war”, who is at fault?
It is a sign of today’s hyperpartisan times that anytime Obama simply calls out someone for inaccuracy, it is labelled a “war”.
The right wing has become a group of floppers – the basketball player who dives to the floor upon the slightest contact … the soccer player who fakes an injury as soon as he’s touched.
balcones? loosen that tinfoil hat now… it’s called A C O R N and it was closely aligned with SEIU… I think Barry O was a community organizer and sometime hired gun for ACORN, no?
Actually, President Obama was never an organizer for ACORN. He did serve as a lawyer for ACORN on one case: In 1995, Mr. Obama was on a team of lawyers that represented Acorn in a lawsuit to compel Illinois to comply with federal laws intended to enhance access to the polls. The team also represented Equip for Equality, a group that promotes the rights of the disabled, and four individuals. … the Justice Department was on the same side as Acorn in the lawsuit, as were other organizations, including the League of Women Voters. Those plaintiffs won the case.
Meanwhile, I challenge you to find one instance of ACORN being succesfully prosecuted for voter fraud. Just one. And that, despite the Bush Administration firing a number of Republican US Attorneys for their failure to bring suit against ACORN, and replacing them with prosecutors who were committed to prosecuting ACORN.
Crying “voter fraud” actually require proof at some point – or eventually it makes the person crying “voter fraud” look non-serious.
28 Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Otto, glad to know that your posts are not intended to change people’s minds. I was afraid that you thought your comments could actually be persuasive.
It says much, and none of it complimentary, about NM’s ability to” build a conservatism that can win again” that, prominent among its most active commenters, is a bevy of liberal snark merchants.
29 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 3:07 pm
“Otto, glad to know that your posts are not intended to change people’s minds. I was afraid that you thought your comments could actually be persuasive.”
……….Very few of the posters here if any are persuadeable…..certainly not you………in fact the whole NM endeavor has little purpose other than raising David’s personal visibility (nothing wrong with that) and providing a source of entertainment to posters which is what a lot of blogging is about(a sort of alternative to solitaire)……the reason why it’s not going to change anything in a real sense is because conservatism (for which read the GOP) is being swept along by forces that have been years in the making and David’s puny efforts aren’t going to make a dimes worth of difference………Unfortunately most of you guys can’t see the wood for the trees and are totally mired in unreality when it comes to the GOP’s predicament(that David addresses from time to time) and most issues of governance…….and the snark is invariably a two way street!…..or hadn’t you noticed.
30 MI-GOPer // Oct 26, 2009 at 4:09 pm
ottoBS gets his Oz-like green drape yanked when he admits to being 100% troll: “………I don’t post here in the hope of persuading lampshades or the factually retarded…..but to expose their distortions and ridicule their more obvious lunacies…….it’s provides me with a bit of mental stimulus and some mild amusement”
Last month, fellow troll rbottoms, made a similar admission by claiming that “I work on computer software all day and going on sites like this (The Next Right) is like a smoke break for me.” He was responding to a complaint by the network administrator that rbottoms was posting only to agitate, inflame, distract and irritate –not to advance civil discourse on important policy debates.
OttoBS and a few other trolls here are nothing more than that: intellectually dishonest, unproductive, disingenuous trolls. I guess they get it from Messiah Obama.
31 Reason60 // Oct 26, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Wow.
Health care reform might cost a trillion dollars over 10 years.
That is a lot of money.
A whole big heap of money.
Almost- almost as much as the War in Iraq has so far.
No, this isn’t just snark. I am a deficit hawk, and want us to have a balanced budget. But if we are going to suffer such a debt, I would gladly suffer it to produce more universal health care.
I am beginning to question even the need for a private health insurance market. I am thinking lately that the marketplace does not work for all things, and health insurance may be one of them.
Auto and homeowner insurance works because car crashes and house fires are things that almost never happen to normal people; most people go their entire lives and exercise their insurance once, maybe twice, and usually for only modest claims.
Insurance is based on an adversarial system; you must prove your car was totaled, or your house burned down. usually this works very well in weeding out fraud and negligence.
Health insurance, by contrast is universal. Almost everyone will get old and sick or get pregnant.. We use something like 90% of all our medical care in the last year of our life.
So basing health care on the adversarial system of insurance is foolish, because it creates a perverse incentive for companies to deny claims.
In addition, there is a lag between purchase and product- you pay premiums and only years later find out if what you paid for is worth anything.
Further, since we really can’t be “smart consumers” in insurance- it is highly technical, requiring specialized medical and lawyerly knowledge- (can anyone here actually read several different policies, and correctly deduce which one is best?) the consumer is unable to exercise the power of comparison shopping.
And what if I pick wrong? What if I pick one that excludes certain illnesses, and I happen to get that one? or need a specialized treatment that is excluded? If I get stuck with a shoddy car, I can always walk; if I don’t get the treatment I need, I die.
Finally, the patient-doctor relationship is fiduciary, not “arms length”; I can negotiate as an equal with a car salesman, and be a savvy consumer; but when I get sick, I can’t comparison shop among doctors and hospitals; I pretty much have to rely on the trust and confidence that he is acting in my best interest.
So ultimately, trying to use the marketplace to solve healthcare is counterproductive. It smacks of a rigid doctrinaire sort of thinking that the market is a magic cure-all.
Government solutions will likely be inefficient and sluggish; but waiting for treatment is better than not getting it at all.
32 LFC // Oct 26, 2009 at 4:35 pm
mi-goper said… OK, loosen that tinfoil hat of your’s balcones… it’s called a labor union, it’s found in nearly all 50 states and 43 other jurisdictions… they represent teachers in public education… they have medical insurance programs that they blackmail and coerce school boards to accept in order to avoid strikes, work stoppages, etc.
So collective bargaining is “blackmail”? I guess you ascribe to the business theory that it is OK for an employer (company, school, etc.) to bargain as a unit, but all employees must bargain alone. And if you don’t like what your employer offers, the only option you should ever get is to quit. Isn’t that … interesting.
And by the way, if you quit you loose your health insurance, because the right doesn’t want to support universal healthcare either. Very nice.
33 LFC // Oct 26, 2009 at 4:37 pm
As to Doug Holtz-Eakin, didn’t he help McCain come up with that brilliant plan of a $5,000 tax credit to buy private insurance?
Oh, yeah. THERE’s a plan that would have reduced the cost of health insurance.
34 sinz54 // Oct 26, 2009 at 4:54 pm
mi-goper:
I happen to agree with “ottovbs” just this once:
I don’t remember any of these reforms you’re suggesting being put into bills (let alone being voted on) when the GOP controlled Congress. I don’t remember them being debated when Bush was in the White House. Instead, we got Medicare Part D, which added tremendously to entitlement spending that wasn’t paid for.
Republican pols will admit off-the-record that health care reform was never a big issue for the GOP.
In 2001, McCain teamed with Ted Kennedy to propose a “Patient’s Bill of Rights.” This would have included such simple reforms as having the right to see a specialist without having to convince a bunch of bureaucrats; to have a fair appeals process for denial of care by insurers; etc. The bill died in Congress and was never sent to the President for his signature.
35 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 4:58 pm
mi-goper // Oct 26, 2009 at 4:09 pm
“ottoBS gets his Oz-like green drape yanked when he admits to being 100% troll:”
……..Long time Republican voter who has flipped because the GOP is being taken over by the factually retarded like mi-goper who are effectively marginalising it, is a troll according to him…..not at all the sort of person we want in the GOP……good luck with increasing the party id beyond the low 20’s
36 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:02 pm
lfc // Oct 26, 2009 at 4:37 pm
“As to Doug Holtz-Eakin, didn’t he help McCain come up with that brilliant plan of a $5,000 tax credit to buy private insurance?”
……….He did indeed……it didn’t add up…….that’s why McCain and no one else in his campaign could explain it.
37 sinz54 // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Churl:
It is too early to expect a blog like NM to attract a lot of interest. Right now, all the interest is on the hard-core left (Daily KOS) and on the hard-core right (Redstate.com), as the political polarization of the Dems and Repubs continues.
NM is trying to reach out to moderates and Independents, with a common-sense cool style of conservatism. But until recently, the Independents had trended toward Obama. Now polls are starting to pick up a shift away from Obama, as Independents start to notice the full scope of Obama’s vision.
NM could be a nice home for Independents who are looking for a reasonable alternative to Obama’s liberalism. But first, Independents have to start looking for an alternative to Obama themselves.
They will. It’s only been 9 months since Obama was inaugurated. Be patient. The real fun will start in 2010.
38 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:08 pm
mi-goper // Oct 26, 2009 at 4:09 pm
” OttoBS and a few other trolls here are nothing more than that: intellectually dishonest, unproductive, disingenuous trolls. ”
……….And you’re one of the “persuadeable” are you…….but then you’re not afflicted with much realism are you.
39 MI-GOPer // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:12 pm
balcones commands, in standard troll fashion: “Meanwhile, I challenge you to find one instance of ACORN being succesfully prosecuted for voter fraud. Just one”.
Nice try, but if “successfully prosecuted” is your standard for determining whether or not ACORN willfully and wantonly engaged in widespread voter fraud, election corruption, and money laundering that directly aided former ACORN vendor Barry Obama, you’d probably believe that OJ Simpson didn’t kill Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. Justice just ain’t your thing, dude.
In Michigan, our locally elected county election clerks know voter registration fraud when they see it and that’s why even Michigan’s far Left Detroit Free Press reported:
“Several municipal clerks across the state are reporting fraudulent and duplicate voter registration applications, most of them from a nationwide community activist group working to help low- and moderate-income families.
The majority of the problem applications are coming from the group ACORN, Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, which has a large voter registration program among its many social service programs. ACORN’s Michigan branch, based in Detroit, has enrolled 200,000 voters statewide in recent months, mostly with the use of paid, part-time employees.”
–Detroit Free Press, Sept 14th 2008.
Here’s where you can look at a state-by-state, year-by-year listing of the proven voter fraud engagement by ACORN in the last 5 years.
http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html
Now, as for the LAUGHABLE claim that Obama wasn’t an organizer for ACORN, didn’t do anything with ACORN, didn’t know about all the voter fraud —crap.
Here’s how the Wall St Journal’s expert on ACORN described Obama’s long history of involvement with the group:
“Acorn’s relationship to the Obama campaign is a matter of public record. Last year, Citizens Consulting Inc., the umbrella group controlling Acorn, was paid $832,000 by the Obama campaign for get-out-the-vote efforts in key primary states. In filings with the Federal Election Commission, the campaign listed the payments as “staging, sound, lighting,” only correcting them after reporters from the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review revealed their true nature.
Mr. Obama distanced himself from the group’s scandals last year, saying “We don’t need Acorn’s help.” Nevertheless, he got his start as a community organizer at Acorn’s side. In 1992, he headed a registration effort for Project Vote, an Acorn partner at the time. In 1995, he represented Acorn in a key case upholding the new Motor Voter Act — the very law whose mandated postcard registration system Acorn workers use to flood election offices with bogus registrations.”
–Wall Street Journal, May 9 , 2009.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124182750646102435.html
I know, I know, now you’ll try to redirect and re-spin and say, “Yeah, but you didn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt the charges of money laundering” –or some equally trollish retort.
The money laundering comes in with Obama and ACORN workers sharing campaign contributor lists of Obama-bots who had maxed out on legal (they still had lots of illegal money to spread into Obama’s corrupt, grubby hands) contributions to the Hype & Small Change Express. ACORN workers, aided by Obama, were to strong arm those maxed out donors to kick money to ACORN in order to assist ACORN in GOTV efforts in purple states.
Crooks, crooked and the most corrupt Administration in the modern presidency. It’s why Obama is now being called Commander -n- Thug.
40 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:16 pm
37 sinz54 // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:06 pm
“But until recently, the Independents had trended toward Obama. Now polls are starting to pick up a shift away from Obama, as Independents start to notice the full scope of Obama’s vision.”
……Oh really Sinz……you might want to check out the pollster average……..Obama’s approval amongst independants is trending…….UP!
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/jobapproval-obama-inds.php#
41 MI-GOPer // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:19 pm
sinz 54, dismissing claims that the GOP tried to enact health care reform notes:
“I don’t remember any of these reforms you’re suggesting being put into bills (let alone being voted on) when the GOP controlled Congress. I don’t remember them being debated when Bush was in the White House. Instead, we got Medicare Part D, which added tremendously to entitlement spending that wasn’t paid for”.
Then take a second or two, go to Thomas at the Library of Congress and research the litany of bills introduced by GOPers in both chambers seeking to address the hc reform issues in current vogue. For what’s it worth, Sinz54, your own frickin president, Obama the Messiah, stated in his joint session speech that he’d work with the GOP on some of their reform proposals… I wonder if you really are that big a tool?
Gheesh.
42 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:24 pm
mi-goper // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:12 pm
………Were entangled in two bloody wars…..the economy is just starting to emerge from the worst recession since the thirties…….nearly 50 million Americans have no health insurance……..16% of Americans are in dire poverty……… and this very typical movement conservative mi goper is ranting on about………wait for it…….no wait for it…..it’s big……ACORN……..as I said totally mired in unreality…….he reminds me of John Cleese as Basil Fawlty
43 sinz54 // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:46 pm
ottovbs:
Given that each poll has a Margin of Error of around +/- 3 or 4 percentage points, all we can say right now from this chart is that the public is sharply divided on Obama. They’re also missing the latest Rasmussen polls, which tend to reflect a slightly more conservative bunch of respondents. (Pollster.com reported that they had a bug in their database which caused them to misquote the Rasmussen polls. Until it’s corrected, they’ve been forced to remove the latest Rasmussen polls.)
But I’m talking about Obama’s stands on policy, not his personal likability. From the latest Gallup poll on Independents, which didn’t make it into Pollster.com’s database yet:
There’s a lot the GOP can do with these issues.
And the GOP knows that to attack Obama personally is suicide. You can’t attack an African-American personally without being called “RACIST!!!” You know that. So the GOP always has to work around Obama’s personal likability, “more in sorrow than in anger,” wink-wink, nudge-nudge, you know.
44 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:48 pm
mi-goper: balcones commands, in standard troll fashion: “Meanwhile, I challenge you to find one instance of ACORN being succesfully prosecuted for voter fraud. Just one”.
Nice try, but if “successfully prosecuted” is your standard for determining whether or not ACORN willfully and wantonly engaged in widespread voter fraud, election corruption, and money laundering that directly aided former ACORN vendor Barry Obama, you’d probably believe that OJ Simpson didn’t kill Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. Justice just ain’t your thing, dude.
Yes, “successfully prosecuted” is my standard for that determination. Particularly when the allegation is widespread voter fraud on the part of ACORN – which means many many cases for the Justice Department to bring forward – and not simply one OJ Simpson case to win or lose on.
If OJ Simpson had been tried 100 times, in front of 100 different juries – do you really believe that he would have been acquitted 100 times? Of course you don’t. So this is clearly not a comparable situation.
“Several municipal clerks across the state are reporting fraudulent and duplicate voter registration applications, most of them from a nationwide community activist group working to help low- and moderate-income families.
Well, that wasn’t difficult – given that ACORN themselves flagged numerous voter registration applications that they submitted as potentially fraudulent.
However, when a canvasser brings back a completed voter registration form and turns it into ACORN, do you know how much discretion ACORN actually has over whether that form gets turned into the state? Perhaps you should look it up.
Actually, look up how legal it would be for ACORN to not turn in every application that they received. It will save you time.
The money laundering comes in with Obama and ACORN workers sharing campaign contributor lists of Obama-bots who had maxed out on legal (they still had lots of illegal money to spread into Obama’s corrupt, grubby hands) contributions to the Hype & Small Change Express. ACORN workers, aided by Obama, were to strong arm those maxed out donors to kick money to ACORN in order to assist ACORN in GOTV efforts in purple states.
Really? You have proof of Acorn workers “strong arming” donors to pay money to Acorn? I’d be certainly interested in some substantive evidence before I’m persuaded that this is anything more than a circle jerk of innuendo being circulated among the far right.
Once again, there is no evidence of illegal action by Acorn. Even in the most recent ’scandal’, Acorn workers had reported to local law enforcement that they had been contacted by people seeking advice for illegal activity.
Once again, the Bush Justice Department made it an article of faith that groups like ACORN were engaged in voter fraud, and it was such a priority that it was the primary reason a number of Republican US Attorneys were fired in 2006, because they refused to bring charges in cases that they believed were poorly substantiated.
Frankly, if Acorn people are stupid enough to sit there while being recorded and talk about how someone can set up an underaged whorehouse in their neighborhood, I’m having a pretty hard time believing that they could engage in massive voter fraud and political shakedowns while under years of intense scrutiny from the US Justice Department and engage without any convictions. But maybe they’re smarter than they look on tape.
45 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:49 pm
mi-goper: For what’s it worth, Sinz54, your own frickin president, Obama the Messiah, stated in his joint session speech that he’d work with the GOP on some of their reform proposals… I wonder if you really are that big a tool?
How to win friends and influence people
46 Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:55 pm
balcones fault informs us, “Obama the Messiah, stated in his joint session speech that he’d work with the GOP on some of their reform proposals…”
Well, sort of. As I’ve said before, if you’ve spotted an iceberg, you won’t be thrilled that Captain Smith wants to hear your opinion on how much wax to put on the shuffleboard courts.
47 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:56 pm
43 sinz54 // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:46 pm
……..Stop cherry picking the Ras polls which “tend to reflect a slightly more conservative bunch of respondents “…..you mean they’re rigged ……and giving me these bs polls about issues which everyone knows are largely meaningless …..for once have the grace to admit that yep, maybe I was wrong on this one
48 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:00 pm
44 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:48 pm
…….I believe there’s only been one successful indictment for voter fraud in 08 and it was of a Republican!
49 LFC // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:01 pm
mi-goper said… Here’s where you can look at a state-by-state, year-by-year listing of the proven voter fraud engagement by ACORN in the last 5 years.
After all this time, you still don’t know the difference between voter fraud (where votes are cast by non-existent people, ineligible people, or people voting in the wrong precinct … like Ann Coulter did) and voter registration fraud? How many times does this have to be pointed out?
ACORN has never been nailed on voter fraud. In fact, voter fraud of any real scale is nearly impossible without manipulating the tallies after the fact, rather than trying to get large numbers of people to vote fraudulently. And as balconesfault pointed out above, ACORN was actively flagging suspicious voter registrations, something that IT WAS NOT LEGALLY OBLIGATED TO DO. The only fraud was that of the workers that ACORN was forced to pay for fraudulent registration cards.
We now return this comment section to people who actually wish to debate facts, rather than parrot Rush Limbaugh’s talking points.
50 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 5:55 pm
“Well, sort of. As I’ve said before, if you’ve spotted an iceberg, you won’t be thrilled that Captain Smith wants to hear your opinion on how much wax to put on the shuffleboard courts.”
…….And you wonder why I say you’re not to be taken seriously………I’m not quite sure what you’re saying but even if true…….the public doesn’t perceive it as such…….they see Obama as having made an effort to reach out and the Republicans being obstructionist…….and in political shuffleboard that’s what matters.
51 LFC // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:04 pm
I believe there’s only been one successful indictment for voter fraud in 08 and it was of a Republican!
In 2008, four men were either found guilty or plead guilty in the New Hampshire phone jamming scandal. And yes, they were working for the Republicans.
52 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:06 pm
49 lfc // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:01 pm
“After all this time, you still don’t know the difference between voter fraud (where votes are cast by non-existent people, ineligible people, or people voting in the wrong precinct … like Ann Coulter did) and voter registration fraud? How many times does this have to be pointed out?”
………Understanding such a hugely complex distinction is beyond mi-gopers pay grade alas……maybe his local Republican committee could run some remedial classes
53 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:07 pm
From the latest Gallup poll on Independents, which didn’t make it into Pollster.com’s database yet:
…
There’s a lot the GOP can do with these issues.
Not a major surprise, given that an awful lot of today’s independents are people who were self-identified Republicans a year ago. For example, per Gallup Republican identifiers slipped from 29% in 3rd quarter 2008, to 27% in 3rd quarter 2009 (Dems stayed constant at 35%).
Thus … of the roughly 38% of Americans who identified themselves as independent in 3rd quarter 2009 … about 6% are ex-Republican identifiers.
Given that – a big polling shift among independents is to be expected – a lot more of them are former Republicans. The key for the RP isn’t just winning on issues, but convincing those people to go back to identifying as Republicans.
54 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:09 pm
51 lfc // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:04 pm
” In 2008, four men were either found guilty or plead guilty in the New Hampshire phone jamming scandal. And yes, they were working for the Republicans.”
……..I’m sure mi goper will shocked enough to give us 500 words on their iniquities
55 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:09 pm
churl: balcones fault informs us, “Obama the Messiah, stated in his joint session speech that he’d work with the GOP on some of their reform proposals…”
No – if you go back and look, you’ll realize I was citing mi-goober.
Please don’t quote me as using the term “Obama the Messiah”, except when I’m being forced to speak wingnut.
56 Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:36 pm
“And you wonder why I say you’re not to be taken seriously…” says otto.
Believe me, this is not the place to be expected to be taken seriously.
57 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:44 pm
……..Just as a side bar to this thread…..what’s happened to all those stories from Gratzer and co informing us that healthcare reform was dead…….I see it looks likely that the public option could take the form of a state opt out……I hadn’t thought about this very much but the more I think about it the more I think whoever came up with it is a political genius because if passed it’s a poison pill for the Republicans……..the only states where there’s going to an “opt out” debate are red states with Republican governors and legislatures……MA and CA are not going to opt out……so all of a sudden these red states many of which are poor with large numbers of low income earners without insurance are going to have this red hot potato placed in their laps at the local level…….Could be very entertaining.
58 sinz54 // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:45 pm
balconesfault:
They don’t have to register as Republicans.
They just have to vote against the Democrats.
In a two-party system, if they are disenchanted with Obama and/or Pelosi, they have only one other party to choose from.
59 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:36 pm
“Believe me, this is not the place to be expected to be taken seriously.”
…….I thought I’d said that already?
60 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:49 pm
sinz54 // Oct 26, 2009 at 6:45 pm
“In a two-party system, if they are disenchanted with Obama and/or Pelosi, they have only one other party to choose from.”
…….Sinz dear heart……there’s a 12-15 point party id gap…….and they are going to throw Obama/Pelosi overboard to embrace Palin, Boehner, Gingrich, Limbaugh, Beck and co……..maybe……but it doesn’t seem likely does it
61 sinz54 // Oct 26, 2009 at 7:57 pm
ottovbs:
In 2010, Palin and Gingrich aren’t running.
Boehner has a good opportunity here.
By mid-2010, “Bush fatigue” will have faded.
And anyone who’s disappointed that unemployment and underemployment remain high (which it will) may consider sending a wake-up call to Obama. It’s almost a tradition to send such a wake-up call to a new President midway through his first term; Bush 43 broke the trend only because of the War on Terror.
Anyway, that’s how it looks now.
A lot can change in a year.
62 Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 8:13 pm
otto again, “and they are going to throw Obama/Pelosi overboard to embrace Palin, Boehner, Gingrich, Limbaugh, Beck and co……..maybe……but it doesn’t seem likely does it”
The voters certainly won’t ebmrace Limbaugh and Beck, because they won’t be candidates; not Gingrich because he’s a has-been; not Boehner because he’s a non-starter.
But things could get so messed up that even Palin might look good and somewhere in the dark recesses of the Republican party there might be another challenger.
I remember the Carter meltdown. Obama has the same misplaced self assurance coupled with naïve reliance on substanceless pretty talk that made Carter a one-termer.
We’ve gone from “…the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal.” to arguing over how to hold a mop. It looks like even his legendary mellifluence is starting to fail.
63 agentprovocateur // Oct 26, 2009 at 9:48 pm
We’ve gone from “…the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal.” to arguing over how to hold a mop. It looks like even his legendary mellifluence is starting to fail.
Perhaps he is merely talking down to the level of opposition he faces. After all, his mellifluence is wasted on such people. By the way, it is so adoreable to witness the whining going on in these parts about the unpure infidels who dare to comment here. When even someone like sinz54 is lumped in as part of the Cult of Obama, it is obvious how far the goalposts have been moved.
64 ottovbvs // Oct 26, 2009 at 10:06 pm
62 Churl // Oct 26, 2009 at 8:13 pm
‘The voters certainly won’t ebmrace Limbaugh and Beck, because they won’t be candidates; not Gingrich because he’s a has-been; not Boehner because he’s a non-starter.”
………..I merely mentioned them because they are the de facto leaders of Republicanism and Gingrich thinks he is.
“But things could get so messed up that even Palin might look good and somewhere in the dark recesses of the Republican party there might be another challenger.”
……….Things are NEVER going to be so messed up that Palin looks good…….any suggestions from the dark recesses…..Romney, Rudy, Huckabee?
“I remember the Carter meltdown. Obama has the same misplaced self assurance coupled with naïve reliance on substanceless pretty talk that made Carter a one-termer.”
………..Carter is a bit like Hitler……the first person to mention him has lost the argument……..and most people’s memory of Bush is much clearer I think you’ll find
“I’ve gone from “…the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal.” to arguing over how to hold a mop. It looks like even his legendary mellifluence is starting to fail.”
……….No arguments…..he just said grab one and help clean up the mess you created…..of course they haven’t because after all they don’t take responsibility do they?
65 balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Speaking of Carter … there is some special irony in hearing people claim the Bush years as already being an “irrelevancy” when discussing electoral politics, then go talking about the Carter years as a way to judge the Obama Presidency.
I think Otto, meanwhile, brings up a good point about the “opt out” clause. If the public option contains an opt out clause for states … and is at the same time at all popular with the general public … moderate Republican governors – the GOP’s main hope for winning the Presidency back in the near term – are caught in a vise.
On one hand, opt out, and risk backlash from state voters who are upset that their governor is responsible for denying them the insurance options available to neighboring states.
On the other hand, opt in, and face an almost certain primary challenge from the Club for Growth next time around.
Poison pill … Trojan Horse … it has the makings of being a really bad deal for the Repubs down the road.
66 athensboy // Oct 27, 2009 at 6:44 am
Man I love how conservatives like Eakins and Hannity love the CBO when it agrees with their position and how they hate it when it disagrees with their position. Do people think how utterly transparent this is? C’mon gop, you can do better than this. Its no wonder the Democrats are in charge.
67 MI-GOPer // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:19 am
Balcones asks for proof of voter fraud –including gross, widespread voter registration fraud– and he gets it but it just doesn’t rise to the his “OJ Simpson wasn’t found guilty so you can’t say OJ killed ‘em” standard of Justice4Idiots, Chapter 9. Even when his partisan peers in Philadelphia and Pontiac condemn the voter fraud by ACORN, Balcones is all “deaf, dumb, and blind”. Were you a trainer for Judge Lance Ito?
No, Balcones, those are determinations made by locally elected, usually Democrat election clerks in in the Michigan & Philadelphia cases, who do, indeed, have the right to determine whether or not ACORN engaged in voter fraud.
No surprise here that, even with proof, you remain with your fingers in your ears, eyes closed shut, chanting “MMMM, MMM, MM Barack Hussein Obama” –because for you or other far left trolls here the game is to continue to contend that ACORN did nothing wrong, that Obama wasn’t deeply and actively involved with the corrupt organization both in his early career as a community organizer and as a presidential candidate, and that ACORN’s corrupting fraudulent actions to destroy the integrity of the vote wasn’t key in Obama winning. That’s the DailyKos/White House tune and you can stick with it, too. Hey, I can see how you & Obama still think OJ was innocent.
Your statements again show that Democrats have never been concerned about the integrity of the vote or the election process. How Obama can lecture Karzai & Afghans on vote legitimacy is beyond credibility when Obama and the Democrats have turned America’s election system into one more like a 3rd World banana republic.
You guys work to actively discount military votes, you work to empower and fund corrupt voter fraud groups like ACORN, you engage in an unprecedented partisanization of the WH and govt institutions to further the partisan interests of Obama… and create a new Nixonian Era of Enemies Lists.
No wonder you think OJ was innocent. I bet you think Dorothy & Toto will return to Kansas one day, too. Go back to “deaf, dumb & blind” Balcones, the act suits you to a T.
68 ottovbvs // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:33 am
mi-goper // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:19 am
1. Still focussed on the trivial….now it’s OJ
2. There’s a distinction between voter fraud(hard to perpetrate) and voter reg fraud(easy to perp)
3. So far the only indictments for voter fraud in 2008 have been of Republicans
69 MI-GOPer // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:33 am
ottoBS pipes in from the bilge room: “Understanding such a hugely complex distinction is beyond mi-gopers pay grade alas……maybe his local Republican committee could run some remedial classes”.
Not at all; it’s a meaningless distinction often used by democrat trolls here and elsewhere, ottoBS. The distinction, naturally, has no relevance. ACORN engaged in widespread voter fraud in over 30 key states between 2004-2008. They began the voter fraud by trying to secure placement of false names on voter registration files in order to use those false placements on Election Day to vote multiple times. They often got caught in the first step and that precludes being able to succeed on the more important, second step.
I kind of like your notion that everyone else is wrong on this patently offensive, multi-state, wide-spread voter fraud by ACORN. It reminds me of another far Left troll here who was getting nailed on ACORN’s latest exposed fraud of helping fake hookers lie to the IRS, engage in criminal activities, etc… that far Left troll was finally reduced to excusing ACORN’s excesses by saying we ought to legalize prostitution and that would make the problem for ACORN go away.
What a silly notion you contend. Sigh, again. OttoBS? You really earn your name around here.
70 ottovbvs // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:41 am
balconesfault // Oct 26, 2009 at 11:08 pm
“Poison pill … Trojan Horse … it has the makings of being a really bad deal for the Repubs down the road.”
……..I’ve read a lot of the press comment about Reid and this issue this morning and who knows if it will make it through but it’s certainly a neat way of throwing sand in the Republican transmission……we’re clearly moving into the time period when decisions on reconciliation will have to be made…..my guess is Reid has the votes, just, for cloture but will only pick up around 55 votes for the actual legislation…..having gone through this kakuki dance if it doesn’t work out he’ll go to the fall back of recon…….this is how it was always going to be.
71 MI-GOPer // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:48 am
ottoBS whines from the bilge room: “So far the only indictments for voter fraud in 2008 have been of Republicans”.
I know comprehension isn’t one of your strong suits, troll, but you’re falt out wrong again.
http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html
Colo 05: ACORN employees convicted of perjury for submitting false voter cards
MO 2007: ACORN employees indicted for identity theft/voter tampering in 2006 elections
NV 2009: ACORN employees indicted for voter fraud/illegal activities in 2008 elections
OH 2009: ACORN employees indicted for voter fraud in 2008 elections
PA 2009: ACORN employees indicted for voter fraud in 2008 elections
WA 2007: ACORN employees convicted of voter fraud, worst case in WA history
MI 2008: ACORN employee Antonio Johnson confesses to voter fraud.
Wow, you can now join Balcones in the “deaf, dumb & blind” section of the peanut gallery… but first, you gotta find a way out of the DailyKos bilge room.
72 ottovbvs // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:48 am
mi-goper // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:33 am
……..you make all these claims about massive fraud by have still not produced a single conviction as requested by balconesfault…..whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty…..isn’t that one of those founding principles you’re always claiming liberals are trying to overthrow……as ever Republican principles are highly flexible……I’m still waiting for you to express some outrage over the ACTUAL voter fraud committed by Republicans……there were several other cases in the 2000 and 2004 elections…..but I won’t hold my breath
73 MI-GOPer // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:52 am
lfc at #49 joined the “deaf, dumb & blind” section of the peanut gallery with this gem: “ACORN has never been nailed on voter fraud. In fact, voter fraud of any real scale is nearly impossible without manipulating the tallies after the fact, rather than trying to get large numbers of people to vote fraudulently.”
Please see above at #71, lfc. The trolls have become ACORN tools. I guess the squirrels are right… the nuts don’t fall far from the trees.
74 MI-GOPer // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:53 am
ottoBS, on cue, proclaims: “whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty”?
PS> see why your dismissal of the OJ analogy was a tad premature? What a tool.
75 MI-GOPer // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:58 am
It really says something that even the far Left democrat trolls here can’t come to admit that ACORN is a corrupting, evil force in our election process… that Obama has a deep and strong attachment to that group and still profits from ACORN being viable… that democrats have used the levers of govt to aid and support ACORN even in the face of widespread voter fraud and corruption not seen since the days of Andy Jackson’s Democrat Party.
Oh wait, these are the guys still saying OJ is innocent.
76 ottovbvs // Oct 27, 2009 at 10:00 am
mi-goper // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:48 am
……..You are such a blinding example of current Republican unreality and lack of proportion …..thanks for these examples….but ………You’re obviously not a lawyer because one of the first questions a lawyers asks “is it material”……by all means focus on this trivia which is hardly on the public radar outside of right wing fanatics like yourself…….it’s basically minor as to be honest is the Republican fraud……but persevere in trying to turn this molehill into a mountain because it all just goes to reinforce a general perception that the Republicans have got a their priorities all wrong
77 MI-GOPer // Oct 27, 2009 at 2:35 pm
ottoBS, thanks for admitting your errors. Where do I send your prize of an autographed “OJ was Innocent” football?
ACORN is all about the fraud… voter fraud, IRS fraud, housing advisory fraud, corporate governance fraud, political fraud, money laundering, abetting criminal activities, etc.
And Obama is squarely, solidly, deeply in the middle of it all.
78 balconesfault // Oct 27, 2009 at 3:41 pm
mi-goper – again, fraud on the part of contractors hired by Acorn to gather signatures does not constitute fraud on the part of Acorn.
In fact, it would be illegal for Acorn to not turn in every voter registration form submitted to a contractor, even if they did due diligence and determine it was most likely fraudulent (as they regularly do, flagging many many forms they submit as questionable).
This is why no Federal Attorneys have taken the charges up the line to try to actually prosecute Acorn themselves. Do you really believe that Bush Appointees wouldn’t have leveraged the convictions and indictments you noted into a wider RICO type prosecution of Acorn itself had they had any evidence of a broader voter fraud intent?
As Newsweek reported:
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/10/15/cracking-the-acorn-case.aspx
79 MI-GOPer // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:09 pm
ahh, Newsweek as a reliable source?
What, the National Enquirer wasn’t commenting?
80 MI-GOPer // Oct 27, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Like we summarized, balcones…
ottoBS, thanks for admitting your errors. Where do I send your prize of an autographed “OJ was Innocent” football?
ACORN is all about the fraud… voter fraud, IRS fraud, housing advisory fraud, corporate governance fraud, political fraud, money laundering, abetting criminal activities, etc.
And Obama is squarely, solidly, deeply in the middle of it all.
81 Keith Olbermann Suggests Joe Lieberman On The Take From Insurance Companies « Nice Deb // Oct 28, 2009 at 1:23 am
[...] New Majority’s Douglas Holtz-Eakin explained how the Senate Dems manipulate the CBO with budgetary tricks. The Senate Finance Committee undertakes political economy malpractice, but the CBO does not mention it. There is a good reason: It can’t. The statutes governing the budget process require that CBO compute the budgetary consequences of the written proposal. It cannot judge the intent of the current Congress, the likely actions of a future Congress, or the virtues of the proposals. Its job is to elucidate the budgetary consequences of the proposal, bill or law as written. Put simply, if the Senate Finance Committee drafts a budgetary fantasy, CBO will have to score it. If I had a CBO, I could send it my plan for next year: make $5 million a month and buy a 50-room mansion with a national debt clock on every wall. I’m sure they would be able to say, “yep, this balances”. But that doesn’t mean it will happen. The same is true of the current healthcare reform fantasies. [...]
82 MI-GOPer // Oct 28, 2009 at 7:50 am
ahhh yes, the far Left’s answer to Sarah Palin –batsh*t crazy Keith Olbermann, the Democrats’ version of Joseph Goebbels… Sieg Olbermann, Sieg Heil Maddow.
The font of Far Left veracity has never been a strong flowing stream, more like a chronically clogged pipe dribbling under the best conditions. This latest smear against the venerable Joe Liberman says it all.
Sief Heil herr Olbermann.
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