Comments on: Defining Torture Down http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:50:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: senorlechero http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down/comment-page-4#comment-50221 senorlechero Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:55:27 +0000 #comment-50221 torture is the tool of the lazy, the stupid, and the pseudo-tough. It's also perhaps the greatest recruiting tool that the terrorists have. ...right after the recruitment video of terrorists hacking the heads off infidels with dull knives. torture is the tool of the lazy, the stupid, and the pseudo-tough. It’s also perhaps the greatest recruiting tool that the terrorists have. …right after the recruitment video of terrorists hacking the heads off infidels with dull knives.

]]> By: JJWFromME http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down/comment-page-4#comment-46263 JJWFromME Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:41:53 +0000 #comment-46263 It appears that some military men agree with me: "...they warned [Obama] that every word he uttered would be taken as an order by the highest-ranking officers as well as the lowliest private. Any wiggle room for abusive interrogations, they emphasized, would be construed as permission. ...retired Major General Paul Eaton, stressed that, as he put it later that day, torture is the tool of the lazy, the stupid, and the pseudo-tough. It's also perhaps the greatest recruiting tool that the terrorists have. http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/26/obama-and-the-end-of-torture/ It appears that some military men agree with me: “…they warned [Obama] that every word he uttered would be taken as an order by the highest-ranking officers as well as the lowliest private. Any wiggle room for abusive interrogations, they emphasized, would be construed as permission. …retired Major General Paul Eaton, stressed that, as he put it later that day, torture is the tool of the lazy, the stupid, and the pseudo-tough. It’s also perhaps the greatest recruiting tool that the terrorists have.
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/01/26/obama-and-the-end-of-torture/

]]> By: JJWFromME http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down/comment-page-4#comment-46265 JJWFromME Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:55:33 +0000 #comment-46265 My biggest problem is that the Bush administration essentially *institutionalized* torture. Abu Graib was not a freak occurrence. There were real policy and legal decisions that led up to it. If you lead people in a certain direction, they'll follow you there, and then some, unless you provide morally clear leadership restraining peoples' dark sides (and they do have them). Torture should be illegal. It should not be condoned or encouraged by the government's legal apparatus, as it was under the Bush administration. There may be cases (although I'm certain they're a lot more rare than the "ticking time bomb" arguers say they are) where someone feels they have to break the law to save lives. In that case they'd have to carry out an act of civil disobedience, and face the legal system afterward. In short, they'd have to tell it to the judge. In certain very rare and extreme cases I might be happy that a person decided to break the law successfully get some information, but I'd probably also pray for that person's soul. In short, our legal system and government should never support or condone torture. It should be illegal. My biggest problem is that the Bush administration essentially *institutionalized* torture. Abu Graib was not a freak occurrence. There were real policy and legal decisions that led up to it. If you lead people in a certain direction, they’ll follow you there, and then some, unless you provide morally clear leadership restraining peoples’ dark sides (and they do have them). Torture should be illegal. It should not be condoned or encouraged by the government’s legal apparatus, as it was under the Bush administration. There may be cases (although I’m certain they’re a lot more rare than the “ticking time bomb” arguers say they are) where someone feels they have to break the law to save lives. In that case they’d have to carry out an act of civil disobedience, and face the legal system afterward. In short, they’d have to tell it to the judge. In certain very rare and extreme cases I might be happy that a person decided to break the law successfully get some information, but I’d probably also pray for that person’s soul. In short, our legal system and government should never support or condone torture. It should be illegal.

]]> By: JJWFromME http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down/comment-page-4#comment-45892 JJWFromME Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:54:26 +0000 #comment-45892 I think this answers the question you were asking earlier: I know that there are cases that require tough methods of interrogation. I'm not informed enough to know exactly where the line of acceptible methods is. I think there are a number of factors involved in whether something is torture. I think waterboarding is in all cases. The Vanity Fair article I linked to mentioned certain things done over the course of 58 days. You might be able to argue that certain things weren't torture if done over a short period, but there's a good chance that after 58 days of some of these methods a prisoner wouldn't be mentally competent to stand trial. That's Pinochet territory. I think this answers the question you were asking earlier: I know that there are cases that require tough methods of interrogation. I’m not informed enough to know exactly where the line of acceptible methods is. I think there are a number of factors involved in whether something is torture. I think waterboarding is in all cases. The Vanity Fair article I linked to mentioned certain things done over the course of 58 days. You might be able to argue that certain things weren’t torture if done over a short period, but there’s a good chance that after 58 days of some of these methods a prisoner wouldn’t be mentally competent to stand trial. That’s Pinochet territory.

]]> By: JJWFromME http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down/comment-page-4#comment-38974 JJWFromME Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:22:13 +0000 #comment-38974 A couple things I should say. I am grateful that you're engaging me in the comments. And I am genuinely impressed with David Frum and the rest of you for creating a site that is open to my comments. Seriously, for the most part, you only see this on liberal sites. I just want to say that this is noted, and I think it's a good sign. I've been reading David Frum closely for a several months, and I am intrigued. Not voting for GOP candidates, but I respect your efforts and am curious about what you're up to. A couple things I should say. I am grateful that you’re engaging me in the comments. And I am genuinely impressed with David Frum and the rest of you for creating a site that is open to my comments. Seriously, for the most part, you only see this on liberal sites. I just want to say that this is noted, and I think it’s a good sign. I’ve been reading David Frum closely for a several months, and I am intrigued. Not voting for GOP candidates, but I respect your efforts and am curious about what you’re up to.

]]> By: JJWFromME http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down/comment-page-3#comment-50974 JJWFromME Sun, 25 Jan 2009 22:16:15 +0000 #comment-50974 Rule of thumb: If certain information is of such value that you're willing to torture them & keep them indefinitely without due process, at least keep track of their case files: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2009/01/the-bush-administration-worse-than-even-i-could-imagine.html Rule of thumb: If certain information is of such value that you’re willing to torture them & keep them indefinitely without due process, at least keep track of their case files:

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2009/01/the-bush-administration-worse-than-even-i-could-imagine.html

]]> By: manton http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down/comment-page-3#comment-48546 manton Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:31:13 +0000 #comment-48546 There are things that I would never support doing to (say) criminal US citizens in the course of a murder investigation that I would support doing to AQ terrorists. JJ seems to want to certain rules to apply in all circumstances and to make no distinctions. I can see that such ann approach is "consistent" but that does not make it valuable in and of itself. There are things that I would never support doing to (say) criminal US citizens in the course of a murder investigation that I would support doing to AQ terrorists. JJ seems to want to certain rules to apply in all circumstances and to make no distinctions. I can see that such ann approach is “consistent” but that does not make it valuable in and of itself.

]]> By: JJWFromME http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down/comment-page-3#comment-53157 JJWFromME Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:02:35 +0000 #comment-53157 As I said, I'm sure someone like David Addington could wordsmith an explanation as to why they wouldn't be analogous. Then someone working for Roger Ailes would dumb it down in such a way that senorlechero would be comfortable hearing it on Fox. So don't worry, senorlechero. As I said, I’m sure someone like David Addington could wordsmith an explanation as to why they wouldn’t be analogous. Then someone working for Roger Ailes would dumb it down in such a way that senorlechero would be comfortable hearing it on Fox. So don’t worry, senorlechero.

]]> By: senorlechero http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down/comment-page-3#comment-51349 senorlechero Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:47:07 +0000 #comment-51349 I have no idea what you are talking about mr. anton, but I'm sure you would not have said it if it were not true. However, what were the circumstances? What other crimes were they convicted of? (most likely lopping off the heads of prisoners, starving them to death, working them to death...etc.) Of course our CIA members would likewise be convicted of torture for waterboarding prisoners of war...otherwise known as LAWFUL combatants. We however are talking about 3 particular UNLAWFUL combatants. I know you know this, but I don't think JJ does. I have no idea what you are talking about mr. anton, but I’m sure you would not have said it if it were not true. However, what were the circumstances? What other crimes were they convicted of? (most likely lopping off the heads of prisoners, starving them to death, working them to death…etc.) Of course our CIA members would likewise be convicted of torture for waterboarding prisoners of war…otherwise known as LAWFUL combatants. We however are talking about 3 particular UNLAWFUL combatants. I know you know this, but I don’t think JJ does.

]]> By: manton http://www.frumforum.com/defining-torture-down/comment-page-3#comment-49734 manton Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:41:27 +0000 #comment-49734 Actually, we did convict Japanese soldiers of waterboardning, in a 1947 war crimes trial. Unlike JJ, however, I don't think the events were analogous. Actually, we did convict Japanese soldiers of waterboardning, in a 1947 war crimes trial. Unlike JJ, however, I don’t think the events were analogous.

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