Comments on: Conservatives Versus Republicans http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:50:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: krove http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans/comment-page-1#comment-40821 krove Fri, 06 Mar 2009 00:22:15 +0000 #comment-40821 Sinz is right about the British Tory party. I am British by birth. I moved to the USA in my 30's. There is a shift a fair way right when you move the British parties to USA politics. The Tory's would occupy the center right of the spectrum with the Labour party which is truly Socialist being well to the left of the Democratic party, They were way left until Blair took office and were borderline Marxist at one point. I laugh when I hear the Obama administration called Socialist. In British terms the social conservatives would be close to fascist under a UK scale. So it's not easy classifying oneself when you move here. I was a Conservative in the UK but found the GOP to be way too rigid and not my "cup of tea" So I am an independent with a democratic lean. I just want good government that is competent. I did not like the Bush crowd in the least mainly due to the war and the constitutional abuses I am convinced they used (see the recently released memos). I am open to persuasion but I really would like a centrist party free from the religious right. Sinz is right about the British Tory party. I am British by birth. I moved to the USA in my 30’s. There is a shift a fair way right when you move the British parties to USA politics. The Tory’s would occupy the center right of the spectrum with the Labour party which is truly Socialist being well to the left of the Democratic party, They were way left until Blair took office and were borderline Marxist at one point. I laugh when I hear the Obama administration called Socialist. In British terms the social conservatives would be close to fascist under a UK scale. So it’s not easy classifying oneself when you move here. I was a Conservative in the UK but found the GOP to be way too rigid and not my “cup of tea” So I am an independent with a democratic lean. I just want good government that is competent. I did not like the Bush crowd in the least mainly due to the war and the constitutional abuses I am convinced they used (see the recently released memos). I am open to persuasion but I really would like a centrist party free from the religious right.

]]> By: dmt3 http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans/comment-page-1#comment-43886 dmt3 Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:10:05 +0000 #comment-43886 sin54: As you suggested I read the British Conservative Party policies and do find they are more in line with my views. Interesting. After trying both parties in my younger days, As an independent conservative, I am homeless because I do not worship at the altar of Rush. I have little hope for the GOP but I recognize the challenges in creating an alternative. You made an earlier comment regarding third parties and Ross Perot. I think that one of the reasons that the movement died was because Perot was not the right leader. I'm not sue who the right leader could have been but it would take someone who speaks clearly, eloquently, and with conviction (remind you of someone?) that would electrify the electorate. We don't have that person today, but if we did....While it may not be probable, it is possible. sin54: As you suggested I read the British Conservative Party policies and do find they are more in line with my views. Interesting. After trying both parties in my younger days, As an independent conservative, I am homeless because I do not worship at the altar of Rush. I have little hope for the GOP but I recognize the challenges in creating an alternative. You made an earlier comment regarding third parties and Ross Perot. I think that one of the reasons that the movement died was because Perot was not the right leader. I’m not sue who the right leader could have been but it would take someone who speaks clearly, eloquently, and with conviction (remind you of someone?) that would electrify the electorate. We don’t have that person today, but if we did….While it may not be probable, it is possible.

]]> By: HollywoodBill http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans/comment-page-1#comment-54501 HollywoodBill Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:26:56 +0000 #comment-54501 Sinz, as usual, you bring up some great points. And while the 70s also brought us disco, it did have other great debating points. In CA, there was Prop13 and of course the infamous Prop6 or the Briggs Initiative. Prop6 was one of those hate filled initiatives that somehow sees the light of day. Prop 6 would have fired every singley teacher in the state of CA. It was started by the Orange County conservatives around the time of Anita Bryant. It was ugly. But an ex Governor, Ronald Reagan wrote an editorial for the now defunct Los Angeles Examiner urging Southern Californians to defeat this measure. It was one of the most stunning turnaround defeats in California history and can be attributed to RR. It even went down to defeat in Orange County. Reagan's logic in the editorial is still breathtaking in its beauty and simplicity and aboveall sense of fairness. He took on the social conservatives in 1978 knowing full well that he would need their support the next year in the primaries. RR didn't care. There was a sense of justice within the Republican Party that is so missing today. Maybe there was too much of the Village People, but the GOP wasn't about to let the lunatics take over the asylum and the American public knew it. Today's moralizing busybody brigades that represent the GOP are not a group any of us are going to help again. Sinz, as usual, you bring up some great points. And while the 70s also brought us disco, it did have other great debating points. In CA, there was Prop13 and of course the infamous Prop6 or the Briggs Initiative. Prop6 was one of those hate filled initiatives that somehow sees the light of day. Prop 6 would have fired every singley teacher in the state of CA. It was started by the Orange County conservatives around the time of Anita Bryant. It was ugly. But an ex Governor, Ronald Reagan wrote an editorial for the now defunct Los Angeles Examiner urging Southern Californians to defeat this measure. It was one of the most stunning turnaround defeats in California history and can be attributed to RR. It even went down to defeat in Orange County. Reagan’s logic in the editorial is still breathtaking in its beauty and simplicity and aboveall sense of fairness. He took on the social conservatives in 1978 knowing full well that he would need their support the next year in the primaries. RR didn’t care. There was a sense of justice within the Republican Party that is so missing today. Maybe there was too much of the Village People, but the GOP wasn’t about to let the lunatics take over the asylum and the American public knew it. Today’s moralizing busybody brigades that represent the GOP are not a group any of us are going to help again.

]]> By: bloodstar http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans/comment-page-1#comment-46390 bloodstar Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:11:30 +0000 #comment-46390 Your logic is undeniable. but as I mentioned earlier. The national voice of Rush, Hannity, etc are the same very voices that are destroying the Republican party... But for those looking for ideological purity, they can't comprehend the importance of compromise. They feel that if they just yell loud enough, or beat enough people up or get enough guns, they'll win the argument somehow. Your logic is undeniable. but as I mentioned earlier. The national voice of Rush, Hannity, etc are the same very voices that are destroying the Republican party…

But for those looking for ideological purity, they can’t comprehend the importance of compromise. They feel that if they just yell loud enough, or beat enough people up or get enough guns, they’ll win the argument somehow.

]]> By: dendup http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans/comment-page-1#comment-50079 dendup Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:46:58 +0000 #comment-50079 People identify themselves as "liberal", "conservative", "wing nuts", "bleeding hearts" or whatever because of a sense of it, a gestalt. Mostly we don't respond to manifestos, or increasingly narrow declarations of what a TRUE whatever is. Generally, I think it works to the advantage of a poltical party to bur its boundries somewhat, so as to include those who respond to the gestalt, but perhaps disagree on various issues. There is a danger of course in doing so too much and apppearing opportunistic and without actual beliefs. Right now Repubs don't really have to worry about tthat. Further down the blog is Henry Olsen's discussion which calls for a American conservatism that provides a distict narrative rather than one that "simply decides how much of the center-left agenda is passed and in what forms." Both Reagan and Clinton used a gestalt based approach, and appealed to some of the same voters despite having huge ideological differences. Obama used the gestalt approach in his campaign and is trying to use it now as much as events allow him. The Rushans meanwhile are culling the herd of everyone that doesn't carry his brand. People identify themselves as “liberal”, “conservative”, “wing nuts”, “bleeding hearts” or whatever because of a sense of it, a gestalt. Mostly we don’t respond to manifestos, or increasingly narrow declarations of what a TRUE whatever is. Generally, I think it works to the advantage of a poltical party to bur its boundries somewhat, so as to include those who respond to the gestalt, but perhaps disagree on various issues. There is a danger of course in doing so too much and apppearing opportunistic and without actual beliefs. Right now Repubs don’t really have to worry about tthat. Further down the blog is Henry Olsen’s discussion which calls for a American conservatism that provides a distict narrative rather than one that “simply decides how much of the center-left agenda is passed and in what forms.” Both Reagan and Clinton used a gestalt based approach, and appealed to some of the same voters despite having huge ideological differences. Obama used the gestalt approach in his campaign and is trying to use it now as much as events allow him. The Rushans meanwhile are culling the herd of everyone that doesn’t carry his brand.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans/comment-page-1#comment-49244 sinz54 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:06:35 +0000 #comment-49244 dmt: Continuing on with my comparison of American and European right wings: Some of the "conservatives" we have in America today, like Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin, really resemble the far-right nativists of Europe like Geert Wilders and Vlaams Belang. There's much that Geert Wilders says that Coulter and Malkin would agree with. But Vlaams Belang is so far to the right that even the blog Little Green Footballs has come out against them. dmt: Continuing on with my comparison of American and European right wings: Some of the “conservatives” we have in America today, like Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin, really resemble the far-right nativists of Europe like Geert Wilders and Vlaams Belang. There’s much that Geert Wilders says that Coulter and Malkin would agree with. But Vlaams Belang is so far to the right that even the blog Little Green Footballs has come out against them.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans/comment-page-1#comment-43756 sinz54 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:59:14 +0000 #comment-43756 dmt: Well, that's why I'm registered as an Independent. Your view of "conservatism," which seems similar to mine, resembles a more European type of cosmopolitan conservatism (e.g., Margaret Thatcher). That type of conservatism is nearly extinct here in America, now that nativism and religiously-inspired policy have become so prominent in the American conservative movement. As an experiment, go read the platform of the British Conservative Party. I'll bet you'll find a lot there that you agree with. So do I. dmt: Well, that’s why I’m registered as an Independent. Your view of “conservatism,” which seems similar to mine, resembles a more European type of cosmopolitan conservatism (e.g., Margaret Thatcher). That type of conservatism is nearly extinct here in America, now that nativism and religiously-inspired policy have become so prominent in the American conservative movement. As an experiment, go read the platform of the British Conservative Party. I’ll bet you’ll find a lot there that you agree with. So do I.

]]> By: dmt3 http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans/comment-page-1#comment-40359 dmt3 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:26:54 +0000 #comment-40359 sinz54: The term "conservative" has been hijacked by those who anything but conservative. The root word "conserve" means to manage wisely, to protect, to prevent loss. If anything it is the antithesis of extremism. In reading what your views, you seem to be a true conservative and consequently, moderate in your views. People who enter this country without permission are here illegally and yet, we cannot put them all in jail or deport all of them. So a rational person has to find a way to securing the borders and finding a path to legitimacy for those who are not here legally. I am sure with that view, I probably would be branded as tree-hugging liberal (nothing wrong with hugging a tree), but I am a conservative that searches for solutions. I have values and princples but I am not rigid. I don't feel like there is any room for me in the GOP. sinz54: The term “conservative” has been hijacked by those who anything but conservative. The root word “conserve” means to manage wisely, to protect, to prevent loss. If anything it is the antithesis of extremism. In reading what your views, you seem to be a true conservative and consequently, moderate in your views. People who enter this country without permission are here illegally and yet, we cannot put them all in jail or deport all of them. So a rational person has to find a way to securing the borders and finding a path to legitimacy for those who are not here legally. I am sure with that view, I probably would be branded as tree-hugging liberal (nothing wrong with hugging a tree), but I am a conservative that searches for solutions. I have values and princples but I am not rigid. I don’t feel like there is any room for me in the GOP.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans/comment-page-1#comment-41685 sinz54 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:14:33 +0000 #comment-41685 mlindroo: In fact, conservatives used to have more libertarian views abouty rights, decriminalization of marijuana, etc., 40 years ago. Back in the early 1970s, I used to read articles in the National Review urging decriminalization of marijuana, and urging conservatives to reach out to gays by recognizing that gays have the same economic concerns as everyone else. But after 1978, when these mainstream conservatives made their Faustian bargain with the social conservatives (who were a combination of nativists and born-again Christians), those libertarian ideas were discarded. It's because some conservatives have finally become disturbed by the lack of reasonableness on the part of these social conservatives that they are rediscovering these libertarian ideas. mlindroo: In fact, conservatives used to have more libertarian views abouty rights, decriminalization of marijuana, etc., 40 years ago. Back in the early 1970s, I used to read articles in the National Review urging decriminalization of marijuana, and urging conservatives to reach out to gays by recognizing that gays have the same economic concerns as everyone else. But after 1978, when these mainstream conservatives made their Faustian bargain with the social conservatives (who were a combination of nativists and born-again Christians), those libertarian ideas were discarded. It’s because some conservatives have finally become disturbed by the lack of reasonableness on the part of these social conservatives that they are rediscovering these libertarian ideas.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/conservatives-versus-republicans/comment-page-1#comment-41618 sinz54 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:08:54 +0000 #comment-41618 dmt3 sez: 'We need a new party that has a conservative philosophy and is federalist in nature - a strong but wise federal government." Sorry, that's not a practical solution, not at the national level anyway. The winner-take-all rule of electoral votes in most states guarantees that a fledgling third party will get crushed in any national election. For example, in 1992, Ross Perot and his Reform Party got 19% of the popular vote--not bad for a fledgling third party that made several tactical mistakes. But Perot got ZERO electoral votes--and that was the end of the Reform Party. Occasionally, an Independent or third party candidate can win in a local or state election, like Jesse Ventura in Minnesota. If you want to try organizing a third party to run candidates in city after city, state after state, go ahead. But that's a very long scenic route to get to where we want to get. Like it or not, the only practical solution in the short term is to keep trying to influence the Republican Party. dmt3 sez: ‘We need a new party that has a conservative philosophy and is federalist in nature – a strong but wise federal government.” Sorry, that’s not a practical solution, not at the national level anyway. The winner-take-all rule of electoral votes in most states guarantees that a fledgling third party will get crushed in any national election. For example, in 1992, Ross Perot and his Reform Party got 19% of the popular vote–not bad for a fledgling third party that made several tactical mistakes. But Perot got ZERO electoral votes–and that was the end of the Reform Party. Occasionally, an Independent or third party candidate can win in a local or state election, like Jesse Ventura in Minnesota. If you want to try organizing a third party to run candidates in city after city, state after state, go ahead. But that’s a very long scenic route to get to where we want to get. Like it or not, the only practical solution in the short term is to keep trying to influence the Republican Party.

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