Andrew Sullivan posts a letter from a reader with some disobliging things to say about the GOP in light of Rep. Wilson’s antics last night.
Huffington Post sounds the same chime.
Conservatives and Republicans have retorted that Democrats have done as bad or worse in the past, including booing at passages in President Bush’s 2005 State of the Union address.
But this kind of back and forth is unproductive. Suppose some Republican members did act supremely badly yesterday. Saddling the nation with trillions of dollars of new debt seems a roundabout way to punish them for it.
Too much writing about politics takes the form of movie reviews. The script failed, the part was poorly played, I didn’t like the show. But it’s not a show. Perhaps some of the Republican opposition has been hysterical or buffoonish or in some cases manipulative and deceptive. But it is the president’s plan and this party’s bills that will or will not become law, and their failings are not diminished one whit by the deficiencies of their opponents.
98 responses so far
1 mycelf // Sep 10, 2009 at 2:16 pm
The script failed: “Who was the president’s speech for? It ought to have been aimed at America’s over 65s, the people most mistrustful of his plans, the people who depend on healthcare most.”
The part poorly played: “To illustrate just the harmlessness of his public option …”
I didn’t like the show: “Will He Ever Learn?”
Please Mr. Frum, show us what really good political writing is about.
2 groverge // Sep 10, 2009 at 2:43 pm
I do hope the GOP continues with these uncivil, intemperate, largely fact-free tirades right up through the 2010 elections. It may be cathartic for the marginalized group that once strutted around D.C. with lobbyists in tow, but moderates and independent are neither impressed nor persuaded. Until the GOP finally sets aside the Gingrich/Delay/Rove playbook and finds a way to rebut and challenge the President with a dignity and seriousness equal to his own, the Democrats will have little to fear but their own timidity. Until then — Joe, Sarah, Rush, Sean and Glenn, you have the floor.
3 DFL // Sep 10, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Social conservatives should always show good manners even under duress. President Obama was less than totally honest last night and he was very belligerent in tone yet that does not give Congressman Wilson a reprieve to act churlishly. One of the great rarely stated problems of the country is the lack of good manners amongst its people. Joe Wilson was a bad example for the young.
4 epc // Sep 10, 2009 at 3:01 pm
As a political moderate, I have been searching for someone on the GOP side who can write cogent, coherent arguments in support of GOP positions, or which criticize Democratic positions in a manner I can understand and respect, if not support and endorse.
“Communist!”, “Socialist!”, “Liar!”, “Liberal Fascist!” are, apparently surprising to some, ineffective.
Is there any value in reforming the GOP? Would it not be better to just write off the current party and form a new party not beholden to those whose argument style tends to the Oreilly-Beck model and not the Buckley model?
I’m reading NewMajority and commenting here because as much as I currently vote for and support Democratic candidates, I think we’re poorer as a country when only one party has all power (and I felt the same way 2001-2006 when the GOP managed to hold three branches of government and yet failed to reduce the size of the Federal Government, the budget, and the national debt).
Writing off the 51-55% of the electorate who didn’t vote for “your side” as the GOP continues to do and purging the party of those who someone like me might vote for will not lead to a return to power (I’m assuming that labeling Democrats as treasonous socialist-communist-Wall-Street-capitalists is not an attempt to convince Democrats to switch allegiances. I may be mistaken).
5 MSheridan // Sep 10, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Actually ireign, a standard Democrat IS a fairly decent stand-in for a moderate, so long as he (or she) ISN’T a politician. Moderates don’t actually tend to elect moderates. Instead, they tend to elect public officials whose official stance is at least a few degrees east or west of their own. We see this in California continually, with our state legislature populated with pols far more fervent (in both directions) than the people they claim to represent.
I myself am a liberal, not a moderate at all. In fact, in past years I’ve registered Green more than once. One of the biggest draws for me in that party’s platform is its support for Instant Runoff Voting (IRV). That, if implemented, would actually decrease the number of hyperpartisan politicians that don’t accurately reflect their constituents’ views.
However, even aside from the foregoing, any people who volunteer that they are moderates should probably be taken at their word. True liberals are proud of their beliefs, just as true conservatives are proud of theirs.
6 epc // Sep 10, 2009 at 3:52 pm
I would really love to hear how my comment demonstrates that I’m “pretty much a standard Democrat” but I suspect there’s no actual facts to back that up.
So how’s this: I only registered as a Democrat in 2004. Until then I regularly split my vote between GOP and Democratic candidates (I try to vote for the most pragmatic candidates). In 2000 the only political contribution I made was to that noted left–wing Democrat John McCain.
In about six weeks I’m going to vote for a Republican (granted: widely derided as a RINO, yet the GOP always caches his checks. Odd) for mayor.
There, you now have enough information to hunt me down and harass me in person, which is what I’ve come to expect from GOP partisans.
7 Chekote // Sep 10, 2009 at 4:05 pm
I actually think that Wilson’s outburst was tactically a brilliant move. First, he clearly rattled Obama during the speech. He lost his rhythm and the rest of his speech petered out like a ballon losing air. Now Obama is in the position that he can’t call another joint session with all its grandeur and ask for a do over. The President is basically out of ammunition. Second, Wilson immediately apologized. This was the right thing to do and it took the focus off him and put it on the substance of his charge. If Wilson had not immediately apologized – as Rush has suggested – the discussion today would be his boorishness instead of Obama’s less than honest presentation. Third, unlike the idiotic “death panels” charge by the Alaska Pest, Wilson is right that the President is being less than truthful. Illegals will be covered since provisions in the bill do not allow the checking of legal status. Besides, we all know the game. As soon as the bill is passed, a group will bring about a suit and a federal judge will declare that illegals must receive coverage. Just like they did for education and countless other benefits.
The problem with Obamacare is that is it built on several falsehoods:
1) 50 million Americans are uninsured because they can’t afford insurance. Not true according the the Census Bureau. Interestingly, last night Obama dropped the uninsured figure from 47 million to 30 million.
2) No insurance means no health care. Not true. People are treated when they show up at the emergency rooms. Doctors do not deny care to people who need it. The issue is about who picks up the bill.
3) Eliminating Medicare fraud will pay for Obamacare. Again, not true. Eliminating fraud has never paid for anything in the past no matter what politicians have promised. Besides, why doesn’t Obama need a bill to fight fraud;
8 MSheridan // Sep 10, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Chekote, I think this is a fairly clear example of an unbridgeable partisan divide. You saw the speech deflating like a balloon after Wilson’s outburst. I didn’t. Having read numerous left of center reactions to the speech on other sites, I haven’t seen that criticism (or anything like it) made once, although I’ve seen other criticisms (should have been firmer on public option, viva single payer! etc.) interspersed with the mostly very positive reaction. Of course, that does not mean that your observation is automatically false. But it may be that it is valid only for those already predisposed to dislike the President’s speech.
9 Chekote // Sep 10, 2009 at 4:26 pm
MSheridan
Look at the headlines and tell me whether the speech was successful.
10 MSheridan // Sep 10, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Okay, just went skimming over the NY Times, LA Times, Times of London, Washington Post, Boston Globe, and Fox News. Aside from Fox, the most critical piece I found was on the front page of the NYT: What Was Missing from Obama’s Speech?
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/what-was-missing-in-obamas-speech/?hp
although that paper’s coverage was also largely positive (big surprise, I’m sure). Where are the negative headlines you’ve been seeing?
11 balconesfault // Sep 10, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Saddling the nation with trillions of dollars of new debt seems a roundabout way to punish them for it.
Yeah – but at least a lot of people will get healthcare out of it. Beats building schools for the Taliban to blow up in Afghanistan, or police stations for Sadrists to blow up in Iraq.
Let’s face it – one of the Republicans biggest fears right now has to be … once the healthcare debate is over, and a bill passes … where will all the money come from? Big insurance has been willing to pour hundreds of millions into political coffers in the last 6 months to ensure that whatever is written doesn’t substantially slow the growth of healthcare costs in this country, since expanding healthcare costs is what fuels growth in their industry. When the bill is done … who ponies up next?
12 rbottoms // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Perhaps?
Preach it.
That’s true. In the mirror universe where Spock has a beard and we have a Bizzaro Superman instead of the other one.
13 Chekote // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:38 pm
MSheridan
Politico, Yahoo declaring the Wilson incident as the “Defining Moment of the Speech”. The main discussion topic on the Sunday morning show was again the Wilson. I am sure that Obama did not give the speech so that the talking heads would be talking about a little known congressman. That’s what I meant by the headlines. Sorry if I did not make myself clearer earlier.
14 Chekote // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:41 pm
MSheridan
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/58059-analysis-obama-speech-unlikely-to-be-game-changer
15 rbottoms // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:46 pm
16 EscapeVelocity // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Obama totally trumped by Wilson and Palin.
EPIC FAIL!
17 balconesfault // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Politico, Yahoo declaring the Wilson incident as the “Defining Moment of the Speech”.
Yep – just like Michael Dukakis’ photo op in a tank was the “Defining Moment of the 1988 Campaign”.
Or maybe it was his dispassionate technocratic response to Bernard Shaw’s question about his wife being raped.
None of which had anything to do with George Bush’s message.
18 rbottoms // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Yep. The increase in the approval ratings of the Obama proposals have been a disaster.
19 rbottoms // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:26 pm
What have we here? (Courtesy Crooks & Liars)
This is an organization that, as the SPLC has detailed assiduously, has been taken over in the past decade by radical neo-Confederates who favor secession and defend slavery as a benign institution. Leading the takeover is a radical racist named Kirk Lyons, who’s been an important legal figure on the far right for some years.
Oh my God yes! Make this man the face of the Republican party.
20 EvilCornbread // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:27 pm
rbottoms: That guy’s actually a friend of a friend of a friend. He was picking up friends to go skeetshooting when he came upon an unusual checkpoint. He agreed to the search because he had nothing to hide, and was arrested for legally having the gun.
He was later released with no charges filed. Contrary to initial reports, the gun and ammo were properly registered.
21 EvilCornbread // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:28 pm
oops, that was supposed to be “illegally” having the gun.
22 anniemargret // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:28 pm
The GOP Demolition Team strikes again! And now poor ole’ S.C. has to be collectively cringing with their Three Stooges – Sanford, DeMint, and ‘I couldn’t help myself’ Wilson.
Chekote: You really think this ‘good’ for the GOP? Holy cow.
“Defining Moment’ now means Republicans are tarnished not only with their usual vitriolic talking heads, they are now ‘defined’ indelibly with bad taste, bad manners, and a penchant to be emotional labile- not a good mix for a national party who seeks to obtain the W.H. again.
Obama will get healthcare reform. Seniors will realize they were bamboozled by fear tactics, they will continue getting their knee and hip replacements, their Medicare cards will stay in their wallets.
The truth is that the majority of the American people voted Barack Obama to be President…and the majority wants healthcare reform. All the polling in the world will not change that.
But the latest unstable outburst from a Republican in the hallowed halls of once-respectable Congress, just proves to anyone outside the Republican’s ‘base’ that their townhall mentality spills over anywhere, anytime. Scary.
23 oldgal // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:35 pm
I think it is time we stop getting in an uproar about how everyone else behaves and start paying more attention to how we ourselves behave.
24 balconesfault // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:37 pm
<b.The same reasons Democrats like McCain in 2000 were why Republicans liked Zell Miller in 2004 and Lieberman in 2008.
What? John McCain campaigned for Al Gore, the way Miller campaigned for Bush and Lieberman campaigned for McCain?
I missed that!
25 balconesfault // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Yeah … let’s factcheck that AP factcheck:
OBAMA: “Nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have.”
THE FACTS: That’s correct, as far as it goes. But neither can the plan guarantee that people can keep their current coverage.
Uhhh… ok. Neither can the real world, really.
In the past Obama repeatedly said, “If you like your health care plan, you’ll be able to keep your health care plan, period.” Now he’s stopping short of that unconditional guarantee by saying nothing in the plan “requires” any change.
To do that, there would have to be a federal mandate that no company in America which currently provides healthcare will be allowed to drop that healthcare in the future.
Is this what the Republican Party is now stumping for?
26 rbottoms // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:46 pm
In speech I heard that means if you decide to drop coverage, you will have to kick in to the health care system, just like you have to do now with Unemployment Insurance. And if you decide to not start providing coverage, the same the same applies. In what universe does that mean no company is allowed to drop health care?
Lord, what a hysterical bunch.
27 EscapeVelocity // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:50 pm
The Sons of Confederate Veterans is a honorable institution, similar to the Daughters of the American Revolution. They keep historical records on the Confederacy and the Civil War. They include Black decendents of Confederate Soldiers.
Bigotry and hatred towards Southerners wont help you win any votes outside your Leftwing strongholds. In fact you will lose a shitload of Blue Dog seats by doing so.
28 Marketcapitalistpig // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:50 pm
[quote]Suppose some Republican members did act supremely badly yesterday. Saddling the nation with trillions of dollars of new debt seems a roundabout way to punish them for it.[/quote]
Yeah, because someone who worked for a Republican administration who has the biggest non-defense non-discretionary spending increases in the federal budget since LBJ has any right to complain about anyone’s spending priorities. You had your chance for 6 years to balance the budget and instead decided to spend, spend away. So when a Democrat gets elected to the White house and you guys magically find your calculators again please excuse us real fiscal conservatives from not taking you lying pieces of crap seriously.
29 EscapeVelocity // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:59 pm
UH OH!
One wing of the Democrats unholy alliance to steal elections has made a big boo boo, and its not the multitude of fraud and election law violation charges either.
Dont worry Lefty’s, you still have the Census in the control of Political Wing of the White House!
30 EscapeVelocity // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:35 pm
As I write this, The Hill is oh so innocently wondering whether Wilson’s shouting might be due to the fact that he’s … some sort of speed freak. We’ve reached a very, very dark point.
Update: Jim Treacher, from the comments in Headlines: “The former caffeine addict called out the former cocaine addict.”
It just keeps getting worse and worse for Obama and the Democrats.
31 greg_barton // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:10 pm
escapevelocity, I knew you would be defending the SCV.
BTW…You lie!
32 EscapeVelocity // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:27 pm
BTW…You lie!
LOL!
33 natebw // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Like EPC above, I have been reading NM for some time, looking for a place for some rational discussion on the issues of the day. Particularly a place that did not routinely engage in name calling. I have been a life-long Dem, but this year switched to Independent. I would have done it years ago, but I didn’t want to lose my primary vote. Ultimately I decided that the freedom of not being aligned with any party is worth the loss of that vote.
While I did vote for Obama last year, not because I thought he could do no wrong (in fact I thought he was a very weak selection from a weak pool of Dem candidates) but because I could no longer support McCain who showed how unstable he could be in picking Palin. Up to that point I had been excited to support McCain, who I had voted for in 2000 and always admired. As healthcare profressional and business owner, my thoughts have evolved. I would truly love to see a Republican president that I could feel great about voting for. The chance that that person is of the religious right is slim however.
In my opinion Obama has screwed up the healthcare issue from beginning to end and it may very well bring is presidency down in flames, but I still hope that from the net threads all the way up to the floors of Congress, we can be civil and respectful Americans.
I look forward to learning and engaging more on these pages,
Nate
34 brandon // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:38 pm
No Greg, escapevelocity is essentially right about the SCV. They are an organization devoted to Civil War heritage and history.
Are there people in the SCV who wish to see the South secede again from the U.S. or have white supremacy viewpoints. Yes, there are.
But you can’t indict the whole organization or their purpose because they have some wackos in their ranks.
35 anniemargret // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:48 pm
“But you can’t indict the whole organization or their purpose because they have some wackos in their ranks.”
But the wackos in any group, organization, political party, can do great and lasting damage to their reputation, despite the attempts of the rational.
The some-all fallacy can apply to everything we are all writing about on this blog. There are dunderheads and wackos in the parties. Given that the human being emotional IQ’s are much lower than their intelligence IQ’s, we appear to be producing nothing of any substance. I am putting the emphasis on the word, ‘we’ here as I myself have occasionally sunk to the tit-for-tat level of discourse.
Frankly, our country is going haywire, and we’re spectators. And unless the party, organization, or group doesn’t weed out the wackos, or the wheat from the chaff, they remain ineffectual, or worse… repulsive.
36 brandon // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Annie, I agree with you. Every group has elements that should be denounced. I do have issue with the SCV for not speaking out stronger about the neoconfederate beliefs that some of their members espouse.
Private organizations like the SCV are really not my concern as I can elect not to join or support them. I’m much more concerned about the wacky elements in our two major political parties, because they do effect my life
Van Jones was a kook and Democrats should have denounced his radical beliefs, but they didn’t. I saw nothing but support for him on the various liberal sites I sometimes visit.
Likewise, Republicans should be clear and firm in our denouncement of “birthers,” people who scream at townhall meetings, call the president a liar while he’s speakeing, claim Obama is Hitler etc.
37 natebw // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:01 pm
Escapev. said, “It just keeps getting worse and worse for Obama and the Democrats.”
In the last few weeks, absolutely. But it doesn’t appear to me that it is due to some ingenious GOP master plan, as they have pretty big problems of their own. Rather the general dysfunction of left trying for too much, too soon.
-Nate
38 Chekote // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Chekote: You really think this ‘good’ for the GOP? Holy cow
Yes. Mainly because Wilson apologized right away. Plus the Dems have their own history of heckling Bush. Look nothing that is happening to Obama is new although his supporters seem to think so. Obama was looking for a game changer and he didn’t get it. Not only that but you have articles about whether illegals will be covered. I am sure that Obama’s people wanted the headlines today to be that Obama had regained control of the healthcare debate. That’s not what is going on.
39 greg_barton // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:16 pm
brandon:
Don’t you indict the Democratic party for that all of the time?
40 Chekote // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Welcome Nate!
You are right. Obama is the one to blame. He has wasted so much time on that “death panels” nonsense. All he has done is raise the profile of Palin. For the life of me, I don’t understand why one of his surrogate doesn’t say that if Mrs. Palin was interested in health care reform she should have stayed on as governor of Alaska where she had the power to make a difference. I voted for McCain. I could never vote for Obama. I don’t hang with racists, anti-semites and don’t care for people who do (Rev. Wright).
41 brandon // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:24 pm
Greg, I just discovered this site last Sunday.
I have only posted in about 4 threads other than this one. In those posts, I’ve defended Reagan, said I think Bobby Jindal has potential, talked about MSM bias toward conservatives and said that Obama is amateur hour as president just as I knew he would be.
I haven’t written anything about indicting the entire Democratic Party.
42 Chekote // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Obama squandered a lot of political capital on:
Pork laden stimulus bill
Getting Geithner appointed the “head” of the IRS even though he cheated on his taxes
Pork laden Omnibus bill
GM Bailouts
Mortgage bailouts
Cap and Trade
As Nate said, too much too soon.
43 dragonlady // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:32 pm
Passionate opposition is fine, but it’s important to maintain civility. I’m glad Rep Wilson apologized for his outburst. I do get a chuckle though, of the indignation from liberals demanding respect for O. I recall (cough) they were so respectful of Bush. Most rational voters aren’t going to have their minds swayed on health care by one congressman’s outburst.
44 dragonlady // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Chekote: “I don’t hang with racists, anti-semites and don’t care for people who do (Rev. Wright).”
Didn’t you get the memo? It’s the right that are racists for opposing Obama-ha!
45 EscapeVelocity // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Will Obama be apologizing for calling Republicans liars, using his address to the nation to do so?
He brought it on himself, if you ask me. What were the Republicans supposed to do, just sit there meekly, while the President slandered them. Meekly acquiescing to “Yes Mr. President and the American people, we are liars.”
Obama should apologize to the GOP and the American people, and Sarah Palin, on National Television.
He heated up the rhetoric. He got exactly what he deserved.
46 anniemargret // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:57 pm
chekote: I think a congressman calling the president a liar on national airwaves is ‘new.’ Your party is devolving rapidly from class act (Reagan) to Morlocks.
For sure, the headlines and blogs are full of Wilson the Clown’s tactics, (being rude on the Congressional floor would do that), but the healthcare reform will still happen. It’s not Obama or the Democrats that have lost the contest, but the Republicans.
dragonlady: “Most rational voters aren’t going to have their minds swayed on health care by one congressman’s outburst.” True. But you forget…Americans are paying attention. And they don’t like what they’re seeing. The Republican ‘brand’ is sinking lower by the minute.
And as far as Wilson is concerned, he’s a phony and everyone knows his ‘apology’ was phony. He’s asking for money now, as his opponent just brought in thousands from push-back. They’re already making him the poster boy for the GOP……T-shirts and bumper stickers. They have no shame.
There ’s an old saying…give them enough rope….
47 EscapeVelocity // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Congress approval ratings at 25 year low.
Generic Party identification GOP up 12 points since January, Democrats down 12 points.
Obama’s favorability ratings tanking, now below 50 percent.
Reality isnt that hard to grasp anniemargaret, you just have to embrace it…..I know you can do it.
48 Chekote // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:56 pm
annie
The only who is hanging himself is Obama. He wasting so much time worrying about the “death panels” and he really needs to work on presenting a plan that makes sense to the public. The Dems booed Bush during the SOTU address. Watch for youself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBxmEGG71PM&feature=player_embedded
Note how the Dems sat on their seats as Bush was trying to get a bipartisan solution to Medicare and Social Security. On top of that, the Dems supporters constantly referred to Bush as Hitler. Still the Dems managed to win control of Congress and the White House. Yet you think that the same tactics will backfire on the GOP. What basis do you have?
49 Chekote // Sep 11, 2009 at 12:00 am
dragonlady
Obama’s plan makes no sense. He is not being 100% truthful. And he makes the same mistake that annie does. He thinks the opposition has to do with “death panels” and other nonsense. NO! It is Obama’s nonsense that people oppose. I mean if fighting Medicare fraud will pay for everything, then why not fight it now? Why does he have to have a bill to do it? It is fraud! It should be fought now!
50 txanne // Sep 11, 2009 at 1:31 am
“But it is the president’s plan and this party’s bills that will or will not become law, and their failings are not diminished one whit by the deficiencies of their opponents.”
That is naive David. The deficiencies of the opponents has a lot to do with how the final bill will look. You know you catch more flies with honey, and this vitriol that has been spewing all summer is far from sweet.
This started from the moment Obama took office with limbaugh’s “I hope he fails” and continued with Senator DeMented “Obama’s waterloo”. Socialism, death panels, birthers,indoctrinate our children, now…”you lie”
If you think this kind of behavior is condusive to effective two party legislation, then I dont know what your objective is here.
51 rbottoms // Sep 11, 2009 at 2:27 am
As a former solider I honor anyone who puts on a uniform. (While stationed in Germany in the 80’s as an enlisted man I was taught that all officers are to receive salute, even Soviets should we happen to meet one.) But make no mistake, these men were traitors fighting for the cause of slavery and oppression of Africans and native born blacks. I have no respect for their hateful flag or their heroes.
We won, they lost. It’s time the South stopped bellyaching and got over it.
As for the organization itself:
52 balconesfault // Sep 11, 2009 at 4:38 am
Dems booed Bush during the SOTU address. Watch for youself:
You called that booing? Damn, Republicans are wimps. Some generalized grumbling, but booing? What do you call it when someone really boos, given that level of verbal inflation?
There was just the same level of general grumbing coming from the Republican caucus at points during Obama’s speech … which really wouldn’t have been that notable. Then Wilson shouted out “liar”. That was.
Note how the Dems sat on their seats as Bush was trying to get a bipartisan solution to Medicare and Social Security.
Dems sat on their seats because Bush was using disputed math. And privatizing portions of Social Security would have actually accelerated the date when insolvency loomed for the program.
It is Obama’s nonsense that people oppose.
I’m still trying to figure out what the “nonsense” is … since polling shows that 55% of Americans favor a federally run public option.
I mean if fighting Medicare fraud will pay for everything, then why not fight it now?
Ahh – there you go. Claiming that would pay for everything would be nonsense. It’s a good thing that Obama isn’t saying that. Although I do agree that fighting fraud should be the baseline, and not something new. If it had been done well in the last decade, I guess Obama wouldn’t even have anything to talk about?
53 sinz54 // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:22 am
rbottoms:
They mean: Drop PRIVATE health care.
The concern is that an employer will see the public option or co-operatives as cheaper, and drop private insurance and switch to those other options without giving his employees a chance to say no. And if enough employers do that, it will destroy the private group insurance market and leave America with a single-payer system by default.
Of course, liberals like you are not only unconcerned about that, you’re hoping it will come to pass. Correct?
There, right there, is the fault line. We conservatives will continue to fight any and all plans to move America to a single-payer system. Whether you liberals intend single-payer today, tomorrow, 10 years from now, or 100 years from now, we’re against it and we’ll continue to fight it.
54 So It Has Come to This « Just Above Sunset // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:33 am
[...] One of the last of the Republican intellectuals, David Frum says yes, but this doesn’t matter: [...]
55 mknowles // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:36 am
Rob Miller, Democrat, is running against Joe Wilson in 2010. Yesterday morning 9-10-09 about 6am pacific time (and the next morning after Obama addressed congress on health care reform and Joe Wilson’s outburst), I checked the Act Blue campaign donation web site and Rob Miller had raised $11,000.
I checked again this morning, 9-11-09 at 7:15 am pacific time and so far 19,961 people have contributed $731,458 to Rob Miller’s campaign. Almost 3/4 of a million dollars.
http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/19079
I found data for Joe Wilson at Open Secrets, but the last update was June 2009.
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?type=C&cid=N00024809&newMem=N&cycle=2010
Anyone have data as recent as Rob Miller’s? I’d love to know if the republicans are competitive with their contributions to Joe Wilson’s campaign for 2010.
Remember what happened to Obama’s campaign contributions right after McCain announced Sarah Palin as his running mate? Obama raised $150 Million in September 2008.
This is a very interesting phenomenon, this ability to collect small contributions from thousands of individuals, and instantly, a powerful force that can make politicians change their behavior.
56 balconesfault // Sep 11, 2009 at 11:03 am
<b.The concern is that an employer will see the public option or co-operatives as cheaper, and drop private insurance and switch to those other options without giving his employees a chance to say no.
Well, it seems that any employer in America who doesn’t have a union contract that stipulates a group insurance plan is free to drop private insurance any damn time he pleases.
And if I’ve heard correctly when listening to various Republicans spouting the teachings of Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman, employees are free to quit their job whenever their employer doesn’t provide them the levels of benefits/compensation that they want, and go find someone who will meet their expectations.
In a Republican/Libertarian paradise … workers NEVER have the chance to say no. They have the right to quit.
57 EscapeVelocity // Sep 11, 2009 at 1:30 pm
So all the losers of history should now just shut up and get over it?
Does this include all the minorities in the US who have created their own revisionist histories since the 60s?
Should Martin Luther King, Jr. just accepted that his group were the losers of history and meekly accepted it quietly? How about Native Americans? Women?
Do you see your mistake?
Do you see your hatefilled bigotry, rbottoms, clearly on display for all to see?
58 EscapeVelocity // Sep 11, 2009 at 1:31 pm
http://www.etymonline.com/cw/apologia.htm
59 balconesfault // Sep 11, 2009 at 3:01 pm
escape filibusters the topic …
60 rbottoms // Sep 11, 2009 at 3:31 pm
That’s about how I see it.
I was born the year Emmet Till was lynched, started asking my mom about why people do man things right around the time four little girls were blown apart in a terrorist attack on a church down in Dixie.
From then, through the times I was called n****r while in my Army dress green uniform in Fayetteville, North Carolina, to the dragging death of James Byrd, I’ve read, seen, and heard a non-stop stream of how ugly that part of the country can be for a black folks. So I’m little biased about just how friendly that part of the country can be.
I live as far away from that wretched part of America as I can and only reluctantly go there to change planes en route to points east.
That said, despite it’s abysmal rates of literacy, health, and poverty they are part of the United States
Fortunately for the GOP, that region has provided legions of voters convinced every four years to ease the burden of taxes on the rich and to remove the sensible hand of regulation from business in the name of God. For the last 25 years their intolerant religious views and rabid cultural shortsightedness have dominated our country’s policies.
The result: George Bush, Iraq and the second Great Depression (almost).
If we never elect another Texan or any other Son of Dixie to the White House the country will be better off for it.
61 EscapeVelocity // Sep 11, 2009 at 3:44 pm
I salute your honesty, rbottoms.
62 EscapeVelocity // Sep 11, 2009 at 5:44 pm
So what can we learn from this intellectual discussion….which balconesfault characterizes as filibustering. Note to balconesfault, intellectual discussions are verbose, wordy, and long.
What we can learn is
The Left is anti Southern, full stop. There is no room in the Left for the Southerners. They are the enemy.
But that is the least of what we can learn.
rbottoms thoughts with regard to Southerners are essentially my thoughts with regards to Islam and Muslims. Over simplified but essentially a correct enunciation of my position.
Islam is a vile ideology and though all Muslims are not necessarily bent on evil and perhaps are only cultural Muslims….they are sympathetic to the evil ideology of Islam and those that seek to pursue Islam, which includes severe oppression of women and non Muslims as inferior human beings, second class citizens to be treated differently than others and not granted “universal human rights.”
But that isnt really the broader lesson either.
The broader lesson is that the Left, sees Western Civilization, in the same way that rbottoms sees Southerners. Southerners being only an exacerbated manifestation of Western Civilization, as a racist, segregationist, white Western supremacist contruct, which is irredemible. The systems of philosophy, thought, government, economic systems are manifestations which re-enforce the racist supremacist core that is Western Civilization. The West needs to be destroyed and disempowered so that other peoples or a Marxist re-invention of the world can be established.
The Left is anti Western at its core. This is why they apologize for any group that is opposed to Western Civilization, such as Islam, Muslims, Communist Dictators like Chavez and Castro(who they have a special affinity for), any minority grievance no matter how minor, etc ad naseum….taken to its logical conclusion. Thus we have mass immigration that if opposed is a reflection of White Western racism.
Assimilation is a white western imposition on other peoples of color, and grounded in bigotry and racism, assumption of superiority. Moral and Cultural Equivalence, celebrating diversity(which is not diversity celebration as celebrating non Western cultures and promoting them through…Multiculturalism. Redistributing ill gotten gains from the imperialist capitalist exploitation of other peoples labor and their resources.
The Left at its core is an Anti Western project, in which White Westerners that participate in it are suicidal and nihilist, in effect traitors to Western Civilization. Self hating and self destructive, guilt driven.
63 rbottoms // Sep 11, 2009 at 7:24 pm
So that’s why we have championed everything from Playboy, birth control to abortion rights, feminism, and homosexual rights all these years. It’s Soviets and Saudi Arabia that have embraced these freedoms of choice, not America. How could I have been so blind.
No what we are anti is anti-snake handling, 4,000 year old earth, contraceptive banning, gay bashing, big business loving, factory hog farming, strip mining, polluting, super-tanker crashing, Bhopal causing, chemical plant exploding, clear cutting, defense contractor wasting, wife abusing fools.
You know, the base of the GOP.
64 rbottoms // Sep 11, 2009 at 7:28 pm
BTW, we’re also anti- Trillion dollar war losing, 35,000+ soldier maiming, Osama Bin Laden not finding, Bhagram Airbase torturing, private contract killer proposing, warrantless wiretapping, watermelon joke telling, Confederate flag waving clowns. too.
65 dragonlady // Sep 11, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Chekote, no argument with you on Obama’s health care plan. He told some real whoppers in his speech–and the media is more intent on “fact-checking” avg citizen town-hallers than the POTUS. While his rhetoric was soaring as it always is, he is utterly unconvincing on how we’ll pay for it. I do want health care reform, but I prefer we restructure health insurance to be long term like life insurance, where a company cannot just drop you for a pre-existing condition or jack up rates. Perhaps those employer tax deductions should be limited only if they offer those types of plans. If we make insurance portable across state lines, insurers can have a larger pool of folks to draw from lowering costs. I also would like to see folks get tax deductions for buying their own health care or get HSAs, and for drs to be able deduct pro-bono work. This may help keep more drs in the primary care field which is vastly underpaid, particularly by Medicare. And medical malpractice reform would also help greatly.
66 EscapeVelocity // Sep 11, 2009 at 7:52 pm
With regards to rbottoms comments…
QED
Rbottoms hates Western Civilization and is its enemy, his depiction of it stands as testament.
67 dragonlady // Sep 11, 2009 at 8:04 pm
anniemargaret: “The Republican ‘brand’ is sinking lower by the minute.”
Where you stand is where you sit. I supposed we’ll see in the next mid terms, won’t we? Right now, the GOP is projected to pick up 20-30 House seats from vulnerable Blue Dogs. Of course, 2010 is a long way and anything can happen. The polls are also turning in the GOP direction. Rassmussen shows the GOP leads on 7 out of 10 issues over Dems to include economic issues, terrorism, war in Iraq, taxes, immigration, and even tying them on health care.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/trust_on_issues
68 rbottoms // Sep 11, 2009 at 8:09 pm
One of the things I’ve learned by spending time on conservative sites is you have to have an ignore list to deal with some people who who love to carry on with provocative rants. I’m sure you’ll find someone else who thinks it’s worth the time to argue with you.
/ignore is on.
69 EscapeVelocity // Sep 11, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Fine by me, I long ago understood that arguing with you is a waste of time. That is why I used you to show others reading here, the true nature of the Western Left.
Ignore away. It wont be the first time, that Leftwingers have turned their backs on facts and reason, and it wont be the last.
70 brandon // Sep 11, 2009 at 8:56 pm
“If we never elect another Texan or any other Son of Dixie to the White House the country will be better off for it.”
That is one of the most prejudice statements I’ve ever read.
71 rbottoms // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Yes, the last Texan we had did such a wonderful job, trillion dollar war we may yet lose, a second war he didn’t have the attention span to see through to completion, and damn near throws the country into a second Depression.
The sons and daughters of Dixie, the holdouts over the outcome of the Civil War, the war they still call The War of Northern Aggression are a blight on the GOP (no problem there) but then they get put in charge of running the country and run it into the ground.
Maybe the rest of the country should be just like Mississippi, last or working to be last in just about every category you can name from education to wages, divorce, spousal abuse, obesity pick your blight the South has a race to the bottom be #1 in it.
Then there’s Texas leading the way in adding ignorance, or should I say Creationism to science books but hey, maybe the Earth really is 4,000 years old.
But the clincher is that defiant obsession with holding on to the flag of the traitors who seceded from the United States, a symbol so inviting the KKK took it up as its banner.
No I don’t like the South, but then I wouldn’t want to live in Saudi Arabia either since I prefer my cultural century to be a bit further along than the 14th.
72 brandon // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Rbottoms, your comments about Southerners are just downright offensive. Think if you were saying this about any other group like African Americans, Jews, Indians etc. You can’t just write off a whole state like Texas or Mississippi because there are a few idiots that live there.
Every part of the country has their problems and their lunatics. White people in Chicago threw rocks at Martin Luther King when he was marching for fair housing and called Chicago the most segregated city in the country. Does this mean you never wanted a politician from Illinois to be elected to national office.
California ranks 49th in kids going on to 4 year colleges (after Mississippi). Based on your logic, we should never consider a Californian for high office because the people in that state are now uneducated.
You really need to reread your diatribe and realize just how offensive and ignorant you sound.
I’m from Tennessee and we have contributed much to U.S. culture. Just about all forms of popular music can be traced to my state.
At least people here have the common sense and decency not to categorize a whole region based on stereotypes like you have just done.
73 rbottoms // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:43 pm
First realize I am talking about a state, not an ethnicity.
And maybe I am being offensive and apologize. But on the other hand, I have been called n****r one too many times and experienced to much death and destruction in my lifetime that have the south as its point of origin to want to ever spend more than a temporary amount of time any place below the Mason/Dixon line.
Imagine if at eight, about the time when you are starting to learn about states and countries and people, that you heard about a place called “Atlanta” in a state called “Georgia” and in this place they blow little girls apart with dynamite.
They sic snarling dogs of men and women who look like you r mom and your dad and you pastor from church. You hear about a boy who was hung and set afire the year you were born in the place called the South. And you hear about kids the same age as you brother and sister being beaten and arrested for wanting to have a sandwich at Woolworths, just like the one downtown.
Tell me you’d ever want to set foot in the evil place. Ever.
So thank you, I’ll continue to intensely dislike Mississippi, and Georgia, and South Carlina, and all those places where evil people did evil things and worse their pastors, and their sheriffs, and their judges did nothing to stop it well into my earliest teenage years,
But don’t be afraid. This isn’t Bosnia.
And it isn’t Ireland where I’ll kneecap you for being from “The South”.
I’ll just choose not to live there.
Ever.
74 brandon // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:58 pm
I think you mean Birmingham, Alabama not Atlanta in regards to the little girls being killed in the church bombing. Atlanta was known as the “city too busy to hate” during the Civil Rights Era.
Yes, the South has a tragic history in race relations but this is 2009 and you seem to be living in 1959. No area of the world in human history has made more progress in such a short period of time as the U.S. South. Are there still racists, yes and there always will be and you will find them in all parts of the world.
But if the South is so bad than why has there been a migration back to the South by African Americans over the last 20 years? The Southern States are gaining black population while many other states especially California are losing blacks. Many African Americans say they feel more at home in the South. This has been documented on 60 Minutes and in the New York Times among other places.
75 rbottoms // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Thanks for the correction.
True. Call it PTSD or whatever, the South is frozen in my mind as the most evil place in America for black people because when I was growing up, it was.
Yes, there are black folks who have moved back south. I however won’t be one of them.
What’s it matter to you if a place that sounded as bad a Mordor to me growing up is off my list of fun places to live in. If the South wanted me as a resident then it should have played host to the Olympics of lynching, bombing, deprivation, Jim Crow, and blatant racism for so long. I am sure you’re a great guy personally, but I detest the state you’re from.
I was doing a modeling shoot a while back for my press kit and an elderly woman was watching. I could tell from her accept should spoke German so I asked her where she was from. She said her experiences as a young Jewish girl made hearing the language spoken made her upset. More than sixty years since she was a child and still she’s damaged by what happened to her. Why is it assumed that black folks alone have to put away all vestiges of their feelings in order to live in the world today.
I write software, I make movies, and I watch Battlestar Galactica on DVD. I live my life, but every once in a while I reflect on why there is about 1/3 of the country that I would take prefer drinking Drano over being forced to live there again.
76 brandon // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:36 pm
Live where you want to live, which is where by the way?
But I think it is wrong for you to detest the great state of Tennessee.
I think if you visited my state you would have a different opinion. Tennessee has 3 distinct regions and is a very pretty state especially in the Fall. The people are very friendly and we have wonderful food even though it is very unhealthy it sure tastes good.
We have two cities that with the possible exception of New Orleans are the most important places in the history of popular music, Memphis and Nashville. The whole state is rich in music from the blues, rock, and soul of West Tennessee to the country and gospel of Middle Tennessee to the bluegrass of East Tennessee.
We have the National Civil Rights Museum in Memphis and many points of interest concerning black history in Nashville.
We have growing Hispanic and Asian populations in Memphis and Nashville which are adding their food and traditions to the formerly just black and white culture of the state.
Although, we still have our racial problems especially in the city politics and schools of Memphis, people from all races get along very well on a day to day level.
If you’ve never lived in a place, you shouldn’t be so judgmental. People are pretty similar everywhere. You treat most people with respect, you will get respect back.
You really need to expand your cultural horizons.
77 rbottoms // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:56 pm
San Francisco, Bay Area.
I’ve been to the Civil Rights Museum, and I saw Elvez at one of the clubs there.
Nice place to visit, I wouldn’t live there if you built me a house made out of gold.
I loved living in Germany, I have a number of friends who find the idea of living there a little difficult. I have gay friends who wouldn’t go back to Iowa, or Texas, or you name the places that have supposedly become tolerant, and by the standards of 1967 probably are.
Never, not ever.
I am judgmental because I grew up knowing there were parts of town and places in America I would be killed if I visited there alone. And I’m not talking about places of crime, or some seedy par of town where any one would fear for his life.
Want to know the reason the past has stuck with me?
The reason it’s so visceral isn’t because these people who were a real threat to me and mine were some stereotype of a villain, Bull Connor, or some Kluxer. Nope.
The reason it was so scary as a child, and still tucked away in the back of my mind as an adult was because it was Floyd the Barber who hated you, who would be in the crowd at the lynching.
And Sheriff Andy was willing to look the other way as they hauled out the rope because of the color of your skin.
That’s why you can’t tell me this disrespect of Obama, this breaking of protocol in a way that hasn’t been done in more than 200 years is such an affront, is not precisely because of who Joe Wilson is, what group he chose to affiliate himself with, the man he apprenticed politics with, and where he comes from.
Never. Not ever.
78 balconesfault // Sep 11, 2009 at 11:19 pm
dragonlady at 71
Some good points. I disagree with you on Obama ‘telling whoppers’ of course … and I think that the media has actually erred on both sides on fact-checking Obama.
While his rhetoric was soaring as it always is, he is utterly unconvincing on how we’ll pay for it.
“How we pay for it” is a societal issue … while you’re seeing it as purely a Federal one. For example, along with our spending $800 billion or so on Medicare and Medicaid … we’re also giving about $225 billion a year in tax benefits to employers to provide healthcare to employees. We’re spending $80 billion a year between VA and DOD healthcare. And I can’t find the cost of providing healthcare to the million plus civil service employees in this country, as well as civil service retirees … that’s also Federally paid healthcare. Then let’s step down from the Federal Government … how much do State Governments spend on healthcare for their employees? County Governments? Cities and Towns? Consider that we have about 3 million people working in public schools in this country – teachers, administrators, janitors, etc. Most all of them have a substantial taxpayer funded healthcare package.
It wouldn’t surprise me if we’re already paying about 1.5-2.0 trillion per year in taxpayer funded health insurance, up and down the system. Think 5K – 6.5K per capita for healthcare … all paid for by taxes. Sure, some of it is coming from the property taxes that pay for the lower Sheboygan School District teachers … some is coming from sales taxes for the City of Waco dog catchers … some is coming from State Income Taxes for the lawyers and secretaries in the Virginia Attorney General’s Office … some is coming from Corporate Taxes, like virtually every state employee in Alaska.
We’re already spending the money. We just split it up so it’s more like 1000 cuts, rather than one
stab.
I do want health care reform, but I prefer we restructure health insurance to be long term like life insurance, where a company cannot just drop you for a pre-existing condition or jack up rates.
Just be clear. This WILL raise the cost of doing business for insurance companies. So they WILL have to raise rates across their entire fee structure to pay for it. They will NOT have any incentive to reduce overhead, executive bonuses, or dividends to investors. On an actuarial basis I don’t know how much it will cost, but you can be absolutely certain that your premiums will increase as a result.
If we make insurance portable across state lines, insurers can have a larger pool of folks to draw from lowering costs.
True … but we can also expect insurance companies to all do what Credit Card companies do – move to Delaware or South Dakota, or whatever states provide minimal regulation and ensure them that they will receive very preferential treatment when disputes over claims are arbited.
I also would like to see folks get tax deductions for buying their own health care or get HSAs, and for drs to be able deduct pro-bono work.
Useful suggestions – but I would ask you what you’re asking Obama – how do you intend to pay for it? Giving someone a tax deduction, allowing new deductions, will all reduce tax revenues – which means bigger deficits.
79 sinz54 // Sep 12, 2009 at 11:11 am
balconesfault:
FactCheck.org, which is respected for its objectivity, fact-checked Obama’s speech:
80 sinz54 // Sep 12, 2009 at 11:12 am
rbottoms:
That figures. With the sum total of the opinions you’ve voiced here, I knew you just absolutely had to live in either San Francisco, Chicago, Detroit, or Vermont.
81 sinz54 // Sep 12, 2009 at 11:27 am
balconesfault:
But given the enormous tax breaks to group health insurance–something you consistently ignore–that’s highly unlikely. Group health insurance is treated by our tax laws as a nontaxable fringe benefit. Hence to the company, it’s cheaper to give their employees group health insurance than to give them a wage raise.
Besides, it would be extremely difficult for any large corporation to attract a skilled, educated white collar work force if they dropped all private insurance. I worked in several large companies. I would never have accepted a job offer from a company that didn’t offer insurance.
And that’s why you’ll notice that even in these troubled economic times, you don’t hear about lots of companies dropping group insurance. Because their workers, just like union workers, value health insurance more highly than generous wages. Because tax-wise, and due to the absence of pre-existing condition limitations, it really is.
82 balconesfault // Sep 12, 2009 at 1:11 pm
But given the enormous tax breaks to group health insurance–something you consistently ignore–that’s highly unlikely. Group health insurance is treated by our tax laws as a nontaxable fringe benefit. Hence to the company, it’s cheaper to give their employees group health insurance than to give them a wage raise.
So what you (and Factcheck.org) are saying is that Obama is not being truthful because there is a massive distortion in the marketplace that’s been caused by our tax laws – and that either eliminating that distortion (by removing the significant tax benefits) or creating an attractive alternative to companies needing to stay in the insurance business in order to attract employees (by creating the public option) is akin to coercing companies to drop healthcare coverage.
This is wrong thinking.
83 balconesfault // Sep 12, 2009 at 1:13 pm
And by the way – I do not “ignore” those enormous tax breaks. They account for $225 billion a year, and as group insurance premiums continue to rise the size of that tax break will continue to rise. In fact, some of the proposed regulations for insurance companies (eg – coverage of pre-existing conditions) will inevitably drive up the cost of insurance for all consumers, including businesses – and that will drive up the size of the tax subsidy.
84 EscapeVelocity // Sep 12, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Rbottoms in the Rev. Wright school of anti Americanism, racial hatred, and bigotry…..and is likely to carry it to his grave like most older African Americans. There will be no breakthrough on race until this older generation dies off.
Obama is mysterious in this regard. It would seem that he is the new post racial type with his rhetoric, however by association, he seems stuck in the past….an enigma on race.
Ive been particularly interested in racial politics and issues, and especially African American viewpoints, being that I live in the South.
85 dragonlady // Sep 12, 2009 at 1:54 pm
balconesfault, I’m not sure I follow your logic on spending. The CBO estimates Obamacare will cost us, the taxpayers, $1 trillion on top of what we spend currently. There are differences between public and private employees. The folks who want a public option are making a free-market argument to implement an anti-free market system. My concern is that the gov’t will dictate prices and crowd out private insurers. We already see some of this effect with the govt health care you cite—Medicare underpays for medical services which is one reason why prices rise and hence, our private insurer premiums have gone up. It’s another reason many drs don’t stay in primary care since the field is so underpaid. So my question to you would be how would you pay for the public option? What would you do to increase the supply of more drs? You don’t really believe it can be paid for by cutting waste and fraud in Medicare, do you? I have no problems cutting waste but experience shows us the govt isn’t good at it.
We can get premiums to go down through appropriate competition such as increasing portability to increase pooling, and stop abuses from insurers through regulation. I would be open to a patients’ bill of rights. When you lose your job, you don’t lose your auto insurance; we should offer more options than keeping people tied to their employer’s health care program since our work force is more mobile. It seems to bother you that insurers work for profit; not me as long as they are being fair to their customer. As for your Q on how do we pay for HSAs and tax deductions, we probably differ on how to pay for it, but I would cut govt spending, like the waste of a stimulus package we passed. I do not believe we’re here to serve the govt—they are here to serve us. And allowing people to keep more of their $ for health care enables them not to be at the mercy of insurers or govt. Finally, I would consider reforming current programs like Medicare and Medicaid. I said in another post I want an honest discussion of what Medicare projections will cost us. If it’s reformed properly, I may open to paying higher taxes for it since it does serve a vulnerable demographic.
86 EscapeVelocity // Sep 12, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Its pretty clear there are a lot of great ideas about reforming the health care system and insurance and markets.
Unfortunately, the Left seems primarily concerned with creating a Government Insurance company that will kill off competition so that the whole industry can be micromanged from the commanding heights of government.
Furthermore, they are hedging to get illegal aliens covered as well.
And no tort reform.
I just dont think these people are serious about Health Care and Insurance Reform. They are making stands on what should be non contentious issues, if they were serious.
They are serious about furthering their grandiose Leftwing Utopia visions via the vehicle of Health Care Reform. Again and again, its always the same with the Left. We care for the environment, that is why we are fearmongering about global devestation and faulting human carbon emmissions, our fix is…
the same as always. And expansion of government power, and more taxes and regulation. To further the Leftwing Utopian project.
87 rbottoms // Sep 12, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Yes, you the San Francisco Bay Area, home of Silicon Valley.
Originator of the iPhone and other technologies that are among of the only sectors besides health care that is adding jobs and innovation. Times are tough, but the only reason I have made it through the crash is Steve Jobs’ little invention. I haven’t had to work in a dirty, dangerous line of work since leaving the Army eighteen years ago. I make my living reading books and typing.
I could pump gas in Alabama, but why would I want to?
Tens of thousands of people have work that pays exceedingly well (with fantastic health insurnace) and in times of unemployment the top rate here beats the $230 you get down in Dixie.
And since almost every job here in the tech industry has insurnace from day one, if you lose your job you get COBRA, which while not cheap is better than what happens to a lot of folks.
San Francisco, home to one of the largest geographic centers for biotech research in the world.
The Bay Area, one of the largest, best run networks of light rail, public transportation, with support for low carbon impact transportation in the nation. You absolutely don’t need a car here. But if you have one. the chances that it’s a hybrid (like mine) is pretty high.
Gay men and lesbians can live their live pretty much without hassle and we have some of the most fantastic scenery, boating, hiking, beaches, and fishing all within an hour’s drive in any direction.
I could live in so dirthole town supported only be riverboat gambling and shrimp but why would anyone want to do that.
When the economy does come back again, I’ll still be living in one of the bet places on earth instead of next door to some gigantic hog farm’s lake of manure, enjoying a wonderful breeze from the nearest rendering plant, or down stream from some toxic soup called a river near a strip mine.
Enjoy the heartland.
88 brandon // Sep 12, 2009 at 4:28 pm
rbottoms,
What would be your opinion on the following articles about African Americans and San Francisco:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0615/p02s04-usgn.html
http://www.blacklightonline.com/sfnoir_1.html
89 rbottoms // Sep 12, 2009 at 4:36 pm
My opinion is that it is one of the most expensive places in the world to live. That’s why I live in a nice little town about 35 miles away and take BART into the city.
90 balconesfault // Sep 12, 2009 at 5:06 pm
The CBO estimates Obamacare will cost us, the taxpayers, $1 trillion on top of what we spend currently.
That is Federal taxpayers. And spread out over a decade (so really, given the annual basis I was citing, we’re talking $100 billion/year).
Skipping over that – I wasn’t talking about Obamacare. I was talking about how much we are currently as a society spending, per annum, in taxpayer funded healthcare. And my guess is that the number is between 1.5-2 trillion a year. In other words, we’re spending an enormous amount of taxpayer money.
So my question to you would be how would you pay for the public option?
Personally, I’d use taxes. There are many investments that government makes via taxes that end up making our private sector more efficient and better performing – in my opinion, this would do so as well.
What would you do to increase the supply of more drs?
Personally, I’d establish a number of federally operated med schools/teaching hospitals, educating physicians for free with them signing onto a 8 to 10 year committment to work in underserved communities at a set payscale. None of those excuses about the cost of med school making working for less than an enormous salary right away being impossible because of student loans.
You don’t really believe it can be paid for by cutting waste and fraud in Medicare, do you?
Nope. And I think “without waste” should be a baseline, and not a way of paying for other stuff.
We can get premiums to go down through appropriate competition such as increasing portability to increase pooling, and stop abuses from insurers through regulation.
I like the idea of increased portability, but are we going to have insurance regulation via the federal government? In which case, insurance lawsuits will be settled in federal courts, instead of state courts?
When you lose your job, you don’t lose your auto insurance; we should offer more options than keeping people tied to their employer’s health care program since our work force is more mobile.
Ok. But try that, and you immediately lose most of your support for not going to a single payer system. Seriously, I believe that there would be no faster pathway to a political groundswell for single payer than everyone losing their employee paid policy
It seems to bother you that insurers work for profit; not me as long as they are being fair to their customer.
I’m a big fan of profits, particularly by my company, or those I’m invested in. That said, growth of profits in the insurance industry will mean more money being spend societally on healthcare without the money going to actual healthcare. I think this is creating a serious drag on our economy.
I do not believe we’re here to serve the govt—they are here to serve us.
I wholly agree.
And allowing people to keep more of their $ for health care enables them not to be at the mercy of insurers or govt.
This quickly devolves into empty rhetoric.
I said in another post I want an honest discussion of what Medicare projections will cost us. If it’s reformed properly, I may open to paying higher taxes for it since it does serve a vulnerable demographic.
OK, but that’s really not the discussion here, is it?
91 EscapeVelocity // Sep 12, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Of the last 100 times Ive heard the word “nigger” used…
99 came out of African Americans mouths, mostly Music related, but also in casual usage around where I live….
…and one came out of Homosexuals or their Leftist buddies mouths, calling African Americans in California racial slurs for voting overwhelmingly for Prop 8.
92 rbottoms // Sep 12, 2009 at 5:35 pm
The only that will be buried in 2010 and 2012 is the last vestige of a sane Republican party.
93 brandon // Sep 13, 2009 at 4:19 am
rbottoms, you would be wise not to write off the Republicans so fast. In 1977, we had only 143 seats in the House and 38 in the Senate. The New York Times said we were “close to extinction” and Forbes magazine said we were “in a weaker position than any major party of the United States since the Civil War.” Some thought we would go the way of the Whigs.
3 years later, Ronald Reagan was elected president and the Conservative Revolution was on.
Don’t write the obit just yet.
94 rbottoms // Sep 13, 2009 at 1:51 pm
In 1980 you had Ronald Reagan. In 2012 you’ll have Bobby (The Exorcist) Jindal, Sarah (The Quitter) Palin, Newt (The Adulterer) Gingrich, and Rick (The Secessionist) Perry.
All the candidates will have to either lie about whether they think the birthers are nuts in order to survive the primaries, and thus convince independents they are crazy too or they agree with them and achieve the same effect.
Between now and then the militia crazies and birthers frustrated a their inability to bring down Obama will go further and further in their protests, accusations, and disruptions.
Freshmen members of Congress will have no choice but to kiss their behinds to survive their first re-election bids thus driving the party even further out into crazyland. Death panels? Secret detention facilities? It’s only eight months in, what comes the next three years will be pure technicolor.
95 ottovbvs // Sep 13, 2009 at 6:47 pm
……David old boy……can you produce one source for your claim that Democrats actually booed a speech by Bush to a joint session of congress…….I watched all of them and never saw this happen once……the outburst by that Republican idiot was unprecedented
96 EscapeVelocity // Sep 14, 2009 at 1:42 am
google Bush Booed at 2005 State of the Union Address.
I know you Lefty’s are history, fact, and reality challenged, but surely you arent google challenged.
97 dragonlady // Sep 14, 2009 at 3:06 am
balconesfault:
“This quickly devolves into empty rhetoric.”
Doesn’t the crux of this debate revolve on the affordability of health care these days? If people can better afford health insurance, why is it empty rhetoric? We’d be empowering people to have more control over their health care choices.
“Ok. But try that, and you immediately lose most of your support for not going to a single payer system. Seriously, I believe that there would be no faster pathway to a political groundswell for single payer than everyone losing their employee paid policy.”
Whoa, that’s quite a jump! I’m not sure why you’re assuming their health insurance choices evaporate if they don’t have employer coverage—the demand for health insurance would still exist. Does it make sense to you to provide employers tax deductions for health insurance but not individuals? If insurers can compete across state lines, this should bring down premiums. And if individuals can buy affordable health insurance and be satisfied by it, I see no reason they would cry out single payer. Actually, the Senate Finance Committee is now seriously considering limiting the employer tax deduction, and this idea has bipartisan appeal.
“I like the idea of increased portability, but are we going to have insurance regulation via the federal government? In which case, insurance lawsuits will be settled in federal courts, instead of state courts?”
I’m not a lawyer but since Obama opened up the possibility of medical malpractice reform, and the Senate Finance Committee is looking at specialized health care courts like bankruptcy courts to handle this, perhaps these courts can also handle the claims? Or perhaps the federal govt can incentivize states to change regulations concerning out-of-state insurers by conditioning the granting of federal health care $ on it?
I think your idea on incentivizing med school education to drs serving in underserved areas is interesting. I don’t think we need federal schools since public universities are already subsidized, but I would be open to the fed govt incentivizing med student loans (perhaps forgive a portion of it) for the amount of time drs serve in these sectors or in primary care.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on the public option and raising taxes for it. But I do appreciate the civil discussion we’re having on this topic.
98 balconesfault // Sep 14, 2009 at 4:59 am
otto: can you produce one source for your claim that Democrats actually booed a speech by Bush to a joint session of congress…….I watched all of them and never saw this happen once……the outburst by that Republican idiot was unprecedented
When Bush talked about Social Security’s purported looming insolvency, Dems booed. Mind you – it was a more a low grumble – not like loud, caterwauling of boos that drowned out Bush’s ability to speak or anything. In fact, it was very similar to the grumbling that you heard from Repubs at times during Obama’s healthcare speech the other night – which would really have been unremarkable.
And then Wilson cried out “liar”. Which was quite remarkable.
I’m wondering if the Republicans would consider this acceptable behavior in any situations going forward. Will every Presidential Address to Congress be susceptible to partisan heckling of such a personal level? Will some future Representative Cheney scream out “Go Fuck Yourself” at some future President when he makes a point that the Representative finds objectionable?
It was absolutely unprecedented, and absolutely wrong. And it is not conservative, in any way, shape or form to defend such bad behavior.
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