Comments on: Carbon Eating Trees http://www.frumforum.com/carbon-eating-trees Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:50:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: dacookson http://www.frumforum.com/carbon-eating-trees/comment-page-1#comment-55554 dacookson Thu, 09 Jul 2009 01:13:28 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=7294#comment-55554 Well sinz54 I'm sorry to hear about your health problems. I obviously can't comment on your medication because it's none of my business but I will clarify my position. My first remark wasn't specific enough but I did go on to say that it was releasing GM products into the ecosystem that I'm against. If it's in the laboratory or grown in secure greenhouses then I can support that for certain applications like medicine. If it's about releasing this technology into the environment for higher yields and profits, to try and control the food supply, or to avoid regulating industry, then no way. Certainly not unless it's ratified by every government in the world after decades of testing. We don't know whether shortening the life-span of a fish to bring it to market quicker is going to disrupt the food cycle of other species, there's no computer model that can tell us that. Once it's out there, it's out there, you can't stop it. The dog metaphor isn't a particularly strong one. We're not talking about natural adaptations, albeit influenced by human selection, but specific artificially manipulated ones. You can surely see the difference between using the whole biological system of an organism to breed increases in weight or height for example and inserting genes from other species into the genome. We know some of the consequences of introducing species that have not naturally adapted to their environment, rabbits in Australia being the most well known. I wonder actually how religious conservatives react to this debate, that's not something I'm aware of actually. Do they find a way to support genetic engineering while still denying evolution? Well sinz54 I’m sorry to hear about your health problems. I obviously can’t comment on your medication because it’s none of my business but I will clarify my position. My first remark wasn’t specific enough but I did go on to say that it was releasing GM products into the ecosystem that I’m against. If it’s in the laboratory or grown in secure greenhouses then I can support that for certain applications like medicine. If it’s about releasing this technology into the environment for higher yields and profits, to try and control the food supply, or to avoid regulating industry, then no way. Certainly not unless it’s ratified by every government in the world after decades of testing. We don’t know whether shortening the life-span of a fish to bring it to market quicker is going to disrupt the food cycle of other species, there’s no computer model that can tell us that. Once it’s out there, it’s out there, you can’t stop it. The dog metaphor isn’t a particularly strong one. We’re not talking about natural adaptations, albeit influenced by human selection, but specific artificially manipulated ones. You can surely see the difference between using the whole biological system of an organism to breed increases in weight or height for example and inserting genes from other species into the genome. We know some of the consequences of introducing species that have not naturally adapted to their environment, rabbits in Australia being the most well known.

I wonder actually how religious conservatives react to this debate, that’s not something I’m aware of actually. Do they find a way to support genetic engineering while still denying evolution?

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/carbon-eating-trees/comment-page-1#comment-55480 sinz54 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:15:44 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=7294#comment-55480 dacookson sez: "I say no to genetically modified anything." In that case, you would be condemning me to death. My chronic illness is life threatening. Currently it is being treated with brand-new drugs developed through genetic engineering. Without them, my life expectancy would be considerably shorter. Please stop with the Luddism. Humans have been doing "genetically modified anything" ever since they domesticated the dog and maize. Humans released dogs into the biosphere, and a whole series of domesticated plants for crops. Some of them are so delicately tailored that they cannot survive without humans doing the pollenization for them. Do you regret that? dacookson sez: “I say no to genetically modified anything.”

In that case, you would be condemning me to death.

My chronic illness is life threatening. Currently it is being treated with brand-new drugs developed through genetic engineering. Without them, my life expectancy would be considerably shorter.

Please stop with the Luddism. Humans have been doing “genetically modified anything” ever since they domesticated the dog and maize.

Humans released dogs into the biosphere, and a whole series of domesticated plants for crops. Some of them are so delicately tailored that they cannot survive without humans doing the pollenization for them. Do you regret that?

]]> By: SFTor1 http://www.frumforum.com/carbon-eating-trees/comment-page-1#comment-55436 SFTor1 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 09:36:53 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=7294#comment-55436 Carbon eating trees? Sure. I think the point is rather that we live in a carbon-eating biosphere. By the way, to discuss global warming, wouldn't it be nice to see some first? UAH tropospheric data show that we are right back where we started, pretty much. Upper ocean temperatures haven't budged for five years. Now even Mr. Glasser from GISS says the climate models have no predictive ability past even two weeks. Carbon eating trees? Sure. I think the point is rather that we live in a carbon-eating biosphere.

By the way, to discuss global warming, wouldn’t it be nice to see some first? UAH tropospheric data show that we are right back where we started, pretty much. Upper ocean temperatures haven’t budged for five years.

Now even Mr. Glasser from GISS says the climate models have no predictive ability past even two weeks.

]]> By: dacookson http://www.frumforum.com/carbon-eating-trees/comment-page-1#comment-55435 dacookson Wed, 08 Jul 2009 08:36:35 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=7294#comment-55435 I say no to genetically modified anything. The choice we have here is between being more efficient and unleashing an experimental technology into our ecosystem without knowing the long term consequences. There are so many things you can do before you have to resort to that kind of thing. I don't understand this kind of conservative ideology that doesn't have a problem legislating against people but can't bear it against business. If you can ban drugs because they're bad for people's health, then tightening regulation because carbon emissions are bad for the planet really shouldn't be too much of a conceptual leap. If I have to forgo the pleasure of spending an evening laughing at a lava lamp then Shell can do without a few percent of its massive profits. I say no to genetically modified anything. The choice we have here is between being more efficient and unleashing an experimental technology into our ecosystem without knowing the long term consequences. There are so many things you can do before you have to resort to that kind of thing.

I don’t understand this kind of conservative ideology that doesn’t have a problem legislating against people but can’t bear it against business. If you can ban drugs because they’re bad for people’s health, then tightening regulation because carbon emissions are bad for the planet really shouldn’t be too much of a conceptual leap. If I have to forgo the pleasure of spending an evening laughing at a lava lamp then Shell can do without a few percent of its massive profits.

]]> By: barker13 http://www.frumforum.com/carbon-eating-trees/comment-page-1#comment-55421 barker13 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:49:43 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=7294#comment-55421 "...impose an outright ban on any further tropical deforestation." "Impose...???" You mean... America declares itself "The Law" and we back up our claim with military force? Oooh... Kaaaay... BILL “…impose an outright ban on any further tropical deforestation.”

“Impose…???”

You mean… America declares itself “The Law” and we back up our claim with military force?

Oooh… Kaaaay…

BILL

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/carbon-eating-trees/comment-page-1#comment-55416 sinz54 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:44:44 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=7294#comment-55416 The problem is, we won't have even the first genetically engineered carbon-eating tree for years to come. And we won't have them planted in the tens of millions for many years after that. A more immediate solution is to impose an outright ban on any further tropical deforestation. Right now, the trend with trees is in the wrong direction: Tropical rain forests, a major sink of carbon, are being burned off by developing countries as they industrialize. We'll have to find them ways to modernize without destroying these forests. The problem is, we won’t have even the first genetically engineered carbon-eating tree for years to come. And we won’t have them planted in the tens of millions for many years after that.

A more immediate solution is to impose an outright ban on any further tropical deforestation. Right now, the trend with trees is in the wrong direction: Tropical rain forests, a major sink of carbon, are being burned off by developing countries as they industrialize. We’ll have to find them ways to modernize without destroying these forests.

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