Comments on: Cap-and-Trade: Will Dem Donors Get the Spoils? http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:50:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: bm http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils/comment-page-1#comment-66324 bm Thu, 01 Oct 2009 00:45:16 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=12993#comment-66324 Freedomrings at 17 is perfectly right to point to the short-sightedness of congressional republicans on this issue. One can't overstate the stupidity, ignorance and cynicism of republicans here. Instead of getting ahead of the issue and being able to shape it, they have more or less handed it over to the democrats, who can now use this lever to launch reckless exercises in socio-economic re-engineering and wealth redistribution, with god knows what unintended and unforseeable consequences. How much better if the republicans could, first, accept the elementary proposition that unchecked greenhouse gas emissions are indeed a real issue (cf. Jim Manzi), and, then, on that realistic basis, go on the offensive against the extremist pseudo-scientific propaganda from quite large sections of the climate change industry, and, second, fashion realistic pro-market approaches to the problem. For example, most economists think that a carbon tax is definitely a superior policy instrument to cap-and trade. If the republicans had any brains whatsoever they could champion a small carbon tax that could be gradually ramped up over the next few decades in a way that gives businesses time to adjust and, possibly, in a way that is budget neutral, by cutting other much more harmful taxes, e.g. those hurting employment. Or, given our looming fiscal crisis, to pay down public debt. Or such revenues could be used to finance tax incentives for innovation in new energy technologies that are the only long term solution to climate change. But no! The morons can't bring themselves to utter the word "tax"! Freedomrings at 17 is perfectly right to point to the short-sightedness of congressional republicans on this issue. One can’t overstate the stupidity, ignorance and cynicism of republicans here. Instead of getting ahead of the issue and being able to shape it, they have more or less handed it over to the democrats, who can now use this lever to launch reckless exercises in socio-economic re-engineering and wealth redistribution, with god knows what unintended and unforseeable consequences.

How much better if the republicans could, first, accept the elementary proposition that unchecked greenhouse gas emissions are indeed a real issue (cf. Jim Manzi), and, then, on that realistic basis, go on the offensive against the extremist pseudo-scientific propaganda from quite large sections of the climate change industry, and, second, fashion realistic pro-market approaches to the problem. For example, most economists think that a carbon tax is definitely a superior policy instrument to cap-and trade. If the republicans had any brains whatsoever they could champion a small carbon tax that could be gradually ramped up over the next few decades in a way that gives businesses time to adjust and, possibly, in a way that is budget neutral, by cutting other much more harmful taxes, e.g. those hurting employment. Or, given our looming fiscal crisis, to pay down public debt. Or such revenues could be used to finance tax incentives for innovation in new energy technologies that are the only long term solution to climate change. But no! The morons can’t bring themselves to utter the word “tax”!

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils/comment-page-1#comment-66323 sinz54 Thu, 01 Oct 2009 00:09:53 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=12993#comment-66323 fosterboondoggle: <blockquote> How about taxing carbon? That would solve the spoils problem on the revenue side. But wait, who’s going to vote for that? Not the “conservatives” in the Senate! </blockquote> This is what can go wrong when talk show hosts are trusted more than scientists on scientific issues. Among the GOP base, it's taken as axiomatic that: 1. Global warming is not happening. It's a hoax, deliberately perpetrated by Al Gore and anti-American environmentalists who want to destroy the American economy. 2. The U.S. has more oil reserves than the Middle East, and it's easy to get to. Only liberals and environmentalists are keeping us from tapping it. 3. Taxes should always be cut, never raised. Every one of these propositions is false. But the GOP base has had these falsehoods drilled into their heads by the talk-show circuit; Limbaugh, Coulter, Malkin, etc. As Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said: You have a right to your own opinions. But not to your own facts. fosterboondoggle: How about taxing carbon? That would solve the spoils problem on the revenue side. But wait, who’s going to vote for that? Not the “conservatives” in the Senate!
This is what can go wrong when talk show hosts are trusted more than scientists on scientific issues.

Among the GOP base, it’s taken as axiomatic that:

1. Global warming is not happening. It’s a hoax, deliberately perpetrated by Al Gore and anti-American environmentalists who want to destroy the American economy.

2. The U.S. has more oil reserves than the Middle East, and it’s easy to get to. Only liberals and environmentalists are keeping us from tapping it.

3. Taxes should always be cut, never raised.

Every one of these propositions is false. But the GOP base has had these falsehoods drilled into their heads by the talk-show circuit; Limbaugh, Coulter, Malkin, etc.

As Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said: You have a right to your own opinions. But not to your own facts.

]]> By: sinz54 http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils/comment-page-1#comment-66322 sinz54 Thu, 01 Oct 2009 00:03:06 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=12993#comment-66322 JJWfromME: <blockquote> The best solutions can’t win if someone is able to profit without bearing any of the costs of the externalities. </blockquote> But that's exactly what WILL happen, if permits are just handed off to the fossil fuel industries. They'll use the permits to offset the externalities. JJWfromME: The best solutions can’t win if someone is able to profit without bearing any of the costs of the externalities.
But that’s exactly what WILL happen, if permits are just handed off to the fossil fuel industries.

They’ll use the permits to offset the externalities.

]]> By: EscapeVelocity http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils/comment-page-1#comment-66315 EscapeVelocity Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:49:53 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=12993#comment-66315 Oops, someone moved the topics around on me. Oops, someone moved the topics around on me.

]]> By: mycelf http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils/comment-page-1#comment-66314 mycelf Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:34:22 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=12993#comment-66314 @escapereality: please try posting nonsense that is at least remotely related to the subject of the post. @escapereality: please try posting nonsense that is at least remotely related to the subject of the post.

]]> By: EscapeVelocity http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils/comment-page-1#comment-66299 EscapeVelocity Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:22:11 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=12993#comment-66299 Senate committee rejects amendments enforcing immigration check, blocking abortion funding During his speech to Congress, Barack Obama derided the notion that ObamaCare would pay for abortions and for health insurance for illegal immigrants as “false”, a “misunderstanding” spread by opponents who wanted to derail his efforts to reinvent the American health-care system: http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/30/senate-committee-rejects-amendment-blocking-abortion-funding/ Senate committee rejects amendments enforcing immigration check, blocking abortion funding

During his speech to Congress, Barack Obama derided the notion that ObamaCare would pay for abortions and for health insurance for illegal immigrants as “false”, a “misunderstanding” spread by opponents who wanted to derail his efforts to reinvent the American health-care system:

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/30/senate-committee-rejects-amendment-blocking-abortion-funding/

]]> By: freedomrings http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils/comment-page-1#comment-66298 freedomrings Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:19:46 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=12993#comment-66298 It's a travesty that the allocations won't be auctioned off, but Frum neglects to mention that when this was being discussed a few months ago it was the congressional republicans who were shouting down the idea of auctions as a tax in order to discredit the bill in general. Short sighted to say the least. It’s a travesty that the allocations won’t be auctioned off, but Frum neglects to mention that when this was being discussed a few months ago it was the congressional republicans who were shouting down the idea of auctions as a tax in order to discredit the bill in general. Short sighted to say the least.

]]> By: JJWFromME http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils/comment-page-1#comment-66297 JJWFromME Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:15:35 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=12993#comment-66297 Blame Frank Luntz: http://www.campaigncoverage08.org/?p=198 Blame Frank Luntz:

http://www.campaigncoverage08.org/?p=198

]]> By: EscapeVelocity http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils/comment-page-1#comment-66291 EscapeVelocity Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:07:22 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=12993#comment-66291 JJ, You should find a less obscurantist discriptor than "climate change." JJ,

You should find a less obscurantist discriptor than “climate change.”

]]> By: EscapeVelocity http://www.frumforum.com/cap-and-trade-will-dem-donors-get-the-spoils/comment-page-1#comment-66289 EscapeVelocity Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:05:40 +0000 http://www.newmajority.com/?p=12993#comment-66289 You should pay for the externalities that result from your breathing. You should pay for the externalities that result from your breathing.

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