The comparison on the website is arresting. A photograph of President Obama in unattractive blue jeans, preparing to throw the first ball at a baseball game. The caption: “You know who else wore funny pants?” Place the cursor on the image and it shifts to an older photograph, black and white, of a familiar evil figure clad in lederhosen. “Hitler!”
Nearby is a photograph of Barack Obama with Henry Louis Gates and Officer James Crowley in the White House garden. “You know who else had beer summits?” Fade to an image of a Munich beer garden. “Hitler!
The website is obviously joking. Or rather: One wishes it were obvious. The unfunny fact is, however, that Obama = Hitler analogies are spreading like wildfire on the political right.
“Adolf Hitler, like Barack Obama, also ruled by dictate,” said Rush Limbaugh on his Aug. 6 radio program. That same day Limbaugh itemized “similarities between the Democrat party of today and the Nazi party in Germany.” Among them: The Nazis mistrusted big business, worried about pollution, initiated make-work projects and condemned smoking. Limbaugh concluded: “It is liberalism that is the closest you can get to Nazism.”
Fox News’s newest star, Glenn Beck, has insisted repeatedly that Obama wishes to lead the United States to a “fascist state.”
The House of Representatives’ version of healthcare reform offered coverage for “end of life counseling.” This legislation inspired Sarah Palin to accuse Obama of planning “death panels” to extinguish the old and the disabled -an accusation seized and repeated by Sean Hannity on Fox News.
My website, FrumForum.com, sent a reporter to a healthcare townhall in Maryland, hardly a conservative state. He wrote: “Twenty minutes into my two-hour wait to get a seat at Senator Ben Cardin’s town hall event, I started keeping a ‘Nazi tally’ by counting references I overheard to Adolf Hitler, Germany, or the Nazi Party. … ‘This is exactly how Nazi Germany began!’ was a standard echo heard in line.” There’s a lot wrong with Barack Obama’s healthcare plan, but no, this is not exactly how Nazi Germany began. Not even a little bit close. In fact, the analogy seems so self-evidently crazy that it may baffle outsiders as to how any conservative, no matter how irate, could possibly imagine such a thing.
The answer begins with the declining impact of the word “socialism,” the seemingly more obvious term to apply to big, expensive government programs. Recent polling in the U.S. has found that voters are reacting less negatively to the word than they did a generation ago. Plus, support for Barack Obama from people like Warren Buffett and Paul Volcker has rendered that particular charge less credible. “Fascism” packs more voltage.
The Nazi talk also reflects the impact on Republican politics of supporters of Ron Paul, the libertarian Texas congressman who ran for the Republican presidential nomination in 2008. For their own internal ideological reasons, Paulistas use the term “fascism” very promiscuously. Paul did not win many votes, but he raised a lot of money and inspired intense enthusiasm. The Paulistas make a natural activist base for an opposition party -and an eager audience for angry talk radio. In order to gain their support, many Republicans have begun to talk their inflammatory language. The man who attended President Obama’s Portsmouth, NH, event carrying a placard endorsing assassination and bearing a — legal — firearm strapped to his leg was a Ron Paul supporter.
Contra Rush Limbaugh, history’s actual fascists were not primarily known for their anti-smoking policies or generous social welfare programs. Fascism celebrated violence, anti-rationalism and hysterical devotion to an authoritarian leader. To date, the Obama administration has fallen rather short in these departments. Perhaps uncomfortably aware of the shortcoming, the hardliners have developed — okay, invented really — their own mythology about Obama “brownshirts.” (The popular conservative website RedState.org literally uses the term.) The complaint rests on a single case — that of conservative activist Kenneth Gladney, who got into a scuffle at a townhall in St. Louis, Missouri. The altercation was captured on video and you can watch it on YouTube. What you’ll see is a man, already on the ground, and another man stepping back in order to avoid tripping over him. The man on the ground is Gladney. Gladney walked away from the confrontation and later went to hospital, where he was treated for light injuries and released the same day. Whatever happened and whoever started it, this happily bloodless encounter bears not even the most glancing resemblance to the brutality that made Hitler’s brownshirts notorious. And yet, look up Gladney’s name online and he’s suddenly a poignant martyr.
Can we get a grip here? It is possible to express opposition to a president’s policies without preposterous name-calling — without diminishing and disparaging the unique experiences of those who did actually suffer from actual persecution by actual Nazis. After all, you know who else trafficked in hysterical exaggeration? That’s right: Hitler!
Originally published in the National Post, August 15, 2009.
288 responses so far
1 Chekote // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:52 am
Lest we forget:
Bush as Hitler, Swastika-Mania: A Retrospective
2 anniemargret // Aug 15, 2009 at 12:06 pm
No question some liberals used this awful analogy with Bush. But the preponderance of hate directed at President Obama, 8 months in office, is off the wall. We are talking about a much needed healthcare reform, not anti-war sentiment. We are seeing ‘death to Obama’ signs and ‘overthrow’ of government, and right wing talking heads who are fueling this sentiment everyday, in which way. No comparison.
The worst, worst, in my opinion, are not the self-serving Limbaugh and Coulters and Palins, but the Republicans in elected office who are milky, wimpy and not brave enough to say ‘enough!” or worse….supporting the hate-talk and the hyperbole in stoking fear.
And this kindergartenish ‘they started it first’ mantra has to end. If it is wrong then, and it is even more wrong now, because all the signs are now pointing to some real violence ahead. The hatred is coming out of the woodwork.
Where are the adults in this picture? Where is it, or when is it, going to end? Personally, I believe there is some that prefer it this say – it keeps legitimate discourse ground into the ground, and encourages a climate of hate – I don’t know what side you’re own, it is BAD for this country. No true patriot should endorse it.
3 Chekote // Aug 15, 2009 at 12:30 pm
We are seeing ‘death to Obama’ signs
Perhaps, you have forgotten the movie depicting the assassination of Bush? I think it even won awards. Where was the outrage then?
Republicans in elected office who are milky, wimpy and not brave enough to say ‘enough!” or worse
I agree with you. But neither we the Democrats profiles in courage when it came to denouncing the hateful rhetoric against Bush. BTW, this is what Pelosi had to say about disrupting meetings:
06 Flashback Pelosi Tells Anti War Protesters Im a Fan of Disruptors
Let’s face it. Politicians by nature are cowards. Doesn’t matter the party affiliation.
because all the signs are now pointing to some real violence ahead. The hatred is coming out of the woodwork.
You might be right. Especially, if Obama supporters insist on making this a racial issue. It is not. It is seniors getting concerned about their healthcare being rationed. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that Medicare is going broke and Obama is proposing expanding it. How will you manage the influx? Rationing. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that there are not enough “rich” to pay for what the Dems are proposing. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if you add 47 million to the insurace rolls overnight, we will experience a shortage of doctors. You can create doctors overnight. These are the objections that are motivating the opposition to the Obama plan. It is not racism.
4 sinz54 // Aug 15, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Yawn.
Comparing political figures to Hitler is old news.
How many times do I have to keep posting examples going all the way back to the 1930s?
After all the politicians who have been called “worse than Hitler” since before David Frum was born, it’s a little late to be condemning this activity now.
5 midcon // Aug 15, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Actually David, I believe it is impossible for many people to articulate an opinion regarding political leaders, policies, government, etc without the use of some pejorative reference. As an experiment, I would call upon the posters here to do just that for this thread. Let’s see how many can say something without doing that. And no fair using your own definition of the word.
pejorative: having negative connotations; especially : tending to disparage or belittle
6 barker13 // Aug 15, 2009 at 12:43 pm
The only one who needs to get a grip is you, David.
Thread after thread after thread.
Who do you think you’re fooling? Who do you think you’re impressing?
Yeah, yeah… I get it… artificial inflation of your hits… you assume (quite rightly) new comers will start at the top of the queue before the thread goes so that they’re focused on your comments, not that of the posters.
Yeah, yeah… we all get it… you’re hoping if other blog hosts or perhaps someone from the media decides they need a “blog reference” they’ll pick one of yours – heading straight to the most recent new posting.
(*SIGH*)
It really is pathetic.
BILL
7 sinz54 // Aug 15, 2009 at 12:51 pm
David,
Every political movement needs a martyr–someone who suffered for the cause heroically.
The Left has had Rachel Corrie, Cindy Sheehan, Mumia, etc.
Rachel Corrie made the mistake of standing too close to a wall being demolished by some bulldozer, but the Left made her into some kind of hero.
Mumia is a cop-killer, but the Left made him into a hero.
Now the hard-core Right has their own martyr: Kenneth Gladney.
That’s how political movements grow–by personalizing the cause.
David,
you’re a great columnist.
But I can tell that you wouldn’t be good at political organizing. Or the kind of oratory that brings a crowd to their feet stomping and roaring. You appeal to people’s brains, but not to their hearts or to their guts.
Remember Adlai Stevenson’s famous observation:
When Cicero had finished speaking, the public said, “How well he spoke.”
But when Demosthenes had finished speaking, the public said, “Let us march!”
8 ottovbvs // Aug 15, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Chekote // Aug 15, 2009 at 12:30 pm
” Lest we forget:”
……..The ultimate Chek rationalisation…….just because someone else does it then it’s fine for me to do it……since Chek is a Zionist does this tolerance to the right’s branding of FDR as Franklin D. Rosenfeld…….conservatives just have a new boogeyman…..yesterday FDR today Obama
“It is not. It is seniors getting concerned about their healthcare being rationed. ”
……..sure Chek
“It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that there are not enough “rich” to pay for what the Dems are proposing. ”
……..Actually there are……get out your calculator Chek…..the current effective rate of taxation for the top 1% of taxpayers is 31% and for the next 9 percentile it’s actually marginally higher at 32%…..if they increase the effective rate on the entire top 10 percentile by about 5% on average which mean the top 1% effective rate is probably going to end up around 37%, most of the budgetary problems associated with medicare, SS and the proposed health plan disappear……you couldn’t be more wrong
9 ottovbvs // Aug 15, 2009 at 1:23 pm
……..You have to laugh how the knee jerkers from the right immediately leap into action with the two standard rationalisations:
a) everyone has always done it and anyway they did it to Bush
b) why are you bothering with this nonsense which should be beneath your notice
…….in short the right is completely married to this demonization, it’s their standard operating practice as it is to some extent on the left although they are neither as married to it or as good at it as the right……..it’s not going away because they think it’s effective as indeed it can be……..Krugman had a piece up yesterday where was excoriating Obama for ever thinking he could ever come to an accomodation with this extremism…….Personally I don’t think Obama was ever under that illusion…….he knows what he’s dealing with and because it fits with his own temperament and because he’s convinced it’s sound tactics he’s chosen to take the high road because he’s betting that when it gets down to the wire the vast majority of Americans are going to find logic, coherence and calm more appealing than hyperbole and screaming…….clearly David agrees since his various diaries continually reiterate the danger of appearing crazy…….not that it’s doing much good because movement conservatives have suspended belief in this as in so many other matters……Sinz who obviously would have been having orgasms in the Berlin Sportpalast demonstrates the futility of David’s task far better than I ever could…..the only way to bring this to an end is defeat at the ballot box
10 eadler // Aug 15, 2009 at 1:25 pm
This kind of name calling is being done out of desperation and panic. The election of Obama marks, and the need for government action to fix America’s problems, which were exacerbated by the Conservatives, has meant the end of belief in the myths promulgated by the Republican Conservatives – worship of free markets, and disdain for government.
If the Republicans are ever to become a serious and constructive force, some new organizing principles need to be agreed on. This hasn’t really happened yet. One can’t expect the diehard extremists who are the base of the party to be reasonable, when all the ideals that they stand for have been discredited.
The first phase of grieving is denial. That is what we are seeing. One can’t expect this phase to be over soon.
11 MFarmer // Aug 15, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Ron Paul is to libertarianism as David Frum is to Conservative Radio Talk Showism.
This constant association of libertarians with conservatism, and now with rightwing terrorism, is intellectual dishonesty at its worst. I agree that the repeated use of “nazi”, both from liberals against Bush and Cheny and conservatives against Obama, is useless hyperbole, but then so is the association of Ron Paul with libertarianism — and, to be fair to Ron Paul, one of his supporters packing a gun has nothing to do with Ron Paul or libertarianism. Frum hypocritically commits the same intellectual offenses he accuses conservatives of making.
12 MFarmer // Aug 15, 2009 at 2:20 pm
conservatives of committing
13 Bill C // Aug 15, 2009 at 2:32 pm
David Frum’s hypocrisy is galling and he needs to be called on it. His recent onslaught of articles labeling his ideological opponents on the right intemperate and dangerous would be laudable… if he didn’t stridently engage in the same tactics himself:
This is the man who challenged the place of anti- Iraq War critics in their own country and smeared them as, yes, NAZI defeatists, in a cover story on the most “respectable” flagship magazine in the conservative world, National Review. A radio talk show selling soap it ain’t . Entitled “Unpatriotic Conservatives: A war against America” it reads as a hateful as a Rush Limbaugh rant. http://www.nationalreview.com/frum/frum031903.asp
“They began by hating the neoconservatives. They came to hate their party and this president. They have finished by hating their country.
War is a great clarifier. It forces people to take sides. The paleoconservatives have chosen — and the rest of us must choose too. In a time of danger, they have turned their backs on their country. Now we turn our backs on them.”
and, attacking Pat Buchanan’s valuable piece ( http://www.amconmag.com/article/2003/mar/24/00007 ) in the American Conservative:
“The echo in that previous paragraph of the Nazi slogan “Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer” is unlikely to have been unintentional. Yes, it was indeed time to “be frank about Jews.”
Try squaring the National Review piece with this post and another which Mr. Frum righteoesly proclaims:
“Everybody who respects the conventions of American democracy, which takes for granted the *basic good faith of people on the other side of the political divide*. Oh – and also – everybody who *does any real honor to the memories of the Nazis’ victims*.
The hypocrisy is remarkable. Indeed our neoconservative ideologue, has simply tried to re-brand himself with a series of calls for moderation. When his neoconservative brethren, like Frank Gaffney, accuse Obama of being a radical Muslim and thus sympathetic and actively supporting the Islamisist agenda we hear nothing from Mr. Frum. http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/09/americas-first-muslim-president/print/
Had Rush Limbaugh uttered the exact same “points” uber- Neocon Frank Gaffney makes in the Washington Times piece David Frum would cast him, rightfully, as “crazy” and “intemperate”. In the same vein why no response to Andy McCarthy of the aforementioned flagship magazine who proclaimed “The fact is that, as a man of the hard Left, Obama is more comfortable with a totalitarian Islamic regime than he would be with a free Iranian society.” ? http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OTM0NTQ2OTdlZTNjNTJjYjgxNzFkN2JkOGE3YTgxZjM=
National Review and Washington Times, unlike Limbaugh, don’t do voice overs for soap commercials… they’re supposed to be a more serious venue for the exchange of ideas. Instead they are simply continuing on David Frum’s tactic of attacking someone patriotism and place in their country.
Why the double standard? Here’s my theory. David Frum, as a neocon, doesn’t really care about arresting the size of government while his targets do. He believes that the best way for his gang of neocons back to power is to concede t0 a larger domestic welfare state and loudly beat the drum on foreign policy. He wants to position the GOP as the “security” party and opposing possibly popular entitlements just makes it harder for David Frum and the neocons to advance their priority of creating a belligerent posture for the GOP and the United States. Why waste political capital opposing a possibly popular domestic agenda when we can attack his foreign policy posture? That the purpose New Majority: to remake the right “moderate” on domestic issues and retain its extremism on foreign policy.
In sum David Frum has different priorities than his opponents and is using “any stick that’ll do” to bash them. During the Iraq debate it was the anti-war conservatives and their patriotism . Now it’s the small-government rhetoric from Rush and Mark Levin that might compromise his neoconservative project of putting “An End to Evil” (title of his book). It’s their tone. For his ideological brethren: zilch… no reprimand. He’s just as much of a unrepentant ideologue as Rush Limbaugh it’s just that he’s a neoconservative ideologue.
My advice on David Frum and his “moderation”: “Don’t get fooled again”
Or, perhaps, he is getting too much credit. Maybe his right wing critics are correct: He just is selling out to the left. His blog posts bashing the right are very popular in the left-wing blogosphere. Wouldn’t be the first time: http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/jan/28/00019/
14 ottovbvs // Aug 15, 2009 at 2:38 pm
MFarmer // Aug 15, 2009 at 2:18 pm
” Frum hypocritically commits the same intellectual offenses he accuses conservatives of making.”
………So leaders, by default or incitement, have no responsibility for the actions of their followers…..that would be your position?
15 GT // Aug 15, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Dear David: Thank you for writing this. I am with you on the desperate need for calm conservatism in order to help preserve our constitutional democratic system.
Alas, William F. Buckley Jr. is dead in more ways than one.
A couple of points:
– ) As predictable as the Chicago Cubs in the playoffs, I knew that at least a few commenters would respond to you with a non-sequitur about a few stupid fringe minority of leftists who bellowed, “Bush is a Nazi/Hitler, etc.”
–) There are some *conservatives* and plutocrats, excuse me, “libertarians” who have no use or capacity for logic, intelligence, reason, or common sense — (see virtually every comment on this website by “barker13″ et. al)
Let’s be real David: There are some Americans who will not be satisfied until shots are fired at Obama — and then we will all pay the price for the murderous insanity of the psychotic few.
Putting it another way, there are some ideologues who cannot be reasoned with or persuaded by appeals to facts, evidence, decency, humanity, charity, or common sense.
Some people want to watch America burn.
16 ottovbvs // Aug 15, 2009 at 3:25 pm
gt // Aug 15, 2009 at 2:49 pm
“Putting it another way, there are some ideologues who cannot be reasoned with or persuaded by appeals to facts, evidence, decency, humanity, charity, or common sense.
Some people want to watch America burn.”
……….Regrettably this is true…..nihilism used to something of a left wing phenomenon and pockets of it still exist like the desire to make “the bankers pay” even if it destroyed the US financial system……but over the last 20 years the right has truly made it their own from Gingrich’s attempted US govt shutdown to today’s lunacies some of which paradoxically they share with the left like the desire to destroy the financial system so that they can realize some Galtian fantasy……I think the president well recognizes this and is counting on their self immolation
17 barker13 // Aug 15, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Re: GT // Aug 15, 2009 at 2:49 pm (#14) -
“There are some *conservatives* and plutocrats, excuse me, “libertarians” who have no use or capacity for logic, intelligence, reason, or common sense — (see virtually every comment on this website by “barker13″ et. al)”
(*SNORT*)
Yeah. I’m a plutocrat. That’s it.
GT. Perhaps you haven’t noticed… David Frum is the one who posted a picture of “The Dashing Young Adolf Hitler” (*SMIRK*) to go with his lead here.
Frum is… what he is. (*SHRUG*) We all see it. We all note it. I’m just the most… er… direct about it.
Other than noting that WFB Jr. is dead…
(Thanks for the update. Hey… did you hear about Michael Jackson…???)
…your post provides nothing of substance other than to pat David on the back for his self-serving cynicism.
I doubt one regular would disagree with my basic thesis as provided in post #6.
BILL
18 MFarmer // Aug 15, 2009 at 3:33 pm
………So leaders, by default or incitement, have no responsibility for the actions of their followers…..that would be your position?
Well, if Paul had given a speech encouraging followers to pack heat and attend a town hall meeting, you might have a point. However, if you are asking me if leaders are responsible for the actions of everyone who calls themselves a supporter, then, I say — uh…no. If someone walked into an insurance company and killed all the employees, then told the police he is a supporter of Obama, is Obama responsible by default or incitement?
19 eadler // Aug 15, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Checkote wrote:
“BTW, this is what Pelosi had to say about disrupting meetings:
06 Flashback Pelosi Tells Anti War Protesters Im a Fan of Disruptors”
You seem to have interpreted this headline as proving the Pelosi is a fan of people who disrupt meetings and either did not watch the video you linked, or are distorting the context. What she said was, “I am a fan of disrupters. Franklin Roosevelt was a disrupter.” This means to me that she is saying that disrupting the status quo, when something is going wrong is a good thing. At the same time, she asked those who were disrupting her town hall meeting to be civil and engage in a discussion.
She was the target of people in the town hall meeting, who wanted the democrats to cut off funding for the Iraq War.
20 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 3:45 pm
A martyr who is raising money to pay for his medical care because… wait for it… he’s unemployed and lost his health insurance.
Too funny for words.
21 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 3:48 pm
He can’t be bought, bullied or negotiated with… some people just want to see the world burn.
~ Alfred Pennyworth
22 barker13 // Aug 15, 2009 at 3:49 pm
***OFF TOPIC***
Hey, gang… I found the “missing” Crystal Wright piece.
http://www.newmajority.com/not-the-color-of-his-skin-but-the-cost-of-his-plans
I found it by going to the archives and clicking on Wright’s name from her “Punked” contribution.
(*SHRUG*)
Not quite sure if the “mistake” on David’s part was removing “Skin Color” from the blog main page OR failing to remove the RECORD (and thus the link) from Wright’s “history.”
BILL
23 GT // Aug 15, 2009 at 4:12 pm
You give me a Kenneth Gladney and I will raise you a Congressman David Scott:
Here: http://tinyurl.com/mbwe9b
and here: http://tinyurl.com/q63t3x
24 GT // Aug 15, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Almost forgot the love mail: http://tinyurl.com/ncdgle
25 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 4:32 pm
I discount episodes like that as usually turning out to be fake or even if not, irrelevant.
What really matters is sitting Governors like Rick Perry talking about secession, members of Congress like Michelle Bachmann talking about interment camps, supposedly sane Senators like Grassley agreeing about “Death Panels”.
These people have some weight and influence. Watching them cower in the face of this onslaught of fear and bed-wetting panic is loads of fun.
Speaking of “Death Panels”, it’s funny to watch Republicans have to denounce their own earlier proposals for end of life counseling in order to curry favor with their screaming fanatic constituents who now believe Obama is coming to kill them in their sleep.
26 GT // Aug 15, 2009 at 4:51 pm
“I discount episodes like that as usually turning out to be fake or even if not, irrelevant.” — rbottoms
Fake? Really?
If it is, indeed, a “fake” then the congressman is a cynical and irresponsible liar who should be censured by his colleagues in the House of Representatives.
I would say it is highly relevant when anyone, especially a member of Congress, is attacked with vandalism and racial threats. Ask the cops or your local FBI field office if such threats are irrelevant bullshit.
27 ottovbvs // Aug 15, 2009 at 4:56 pm
MFarmer // Aug 15, 2009 at 3:33 pm
“However, if you are asking me if leaders are responsible for the actions of everyone who calls themselves a supporter, then, I say — uh…no. If someone walked into an insurance company and killed all the employees, then told the police he is a supporter of Obama, is Obama responsible by default or incitement?”
………..And if Obama had made incendiary comments about insurance company employees, suggested they were evil, anti American, not real Americans at all having been born elsewhere, were plotting to bring foreign doctrines to these shores, hated certain groups of Americans?……And since the subject is Hitler…..he then wasn’t responsible for outrages against Jews committed by his followers during his movements rise to power even though he’d incited such occurrences?
28 ottovbvs // Aug 15, 2009 at 4:59 pm
eadler // Aug 15, 2009 at 3:36 pm
“What she said was, “I am a fan of disrupters. Franklin Roosevelt was a disrupter.” This means to me that she is saying that disrupting the status quo, ”
……..One of Chek’s specialities……the out of context quote…….not quite fibbing but nearly
29 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 5:02 pm
But that’s the point, I’m not a cop or the FBI. I am sure they’ll figure it out.
The girl who claimed her face was slashed by an Obama supporter: Fake
The guy with a gun outside Obama’s speech: Real
Which one should I worry about more? Spray paint or guns?
30 ottovbvs // Aug 15, 2009 at 5:11 pm
rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 5:02 pm
…….the point is there is a propensity to violence in American society and because of special interests those interested in perpetrating it have access to some highly efficient killing agents which is why we have around 9000 gun homicides a year……..fruit cakes with guns are dangerous….period
31 GT // Aug 15, 2009 at 5:26 pm
“Which one should I worry about more? Spray paint or guns?”
@rbottoms: I would worry about “death panels,” and Dr. Mengele, and of course Dr. Szell:
http://tinyurl.com/2g3sry
“fruit cakes with guns are dangerous….period”
@ottovbvs: Yeah, especially that J. Edgar Hoover.
32 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 5:27 pm
True.
But last time around the Republicans were sucking up to the militia nuts. Remember Idaho Republican Helen Chenoweth. No? How about Senator Larry Craig? They both courted the militia crazies in the 90’s.
More recently Sarah Palin’s husband joined the Alaska Independence Party, a group dedicated to succession from the United States, whose founder blew himself up with his own plastic explosives.
The unwillingness of Republicans to flat out call the birthers and secessionists crazy, the footsie that they play with angry mobs who scream they want their country back, as if Obama was secretly a Kenyan Che Geuvara, is more dangerous than some random tagger spraying swastikas.
There will be another Timothy McVeigh, another Oklahoma City, and these same GOP rabble-rousers will again cry it’s not their fault, they had no idea that anything bad could come of denouncing not just the ideas of Obama but the very legitimacy our president has in heading up the government.
33 GT // Aug 15, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Leaving aside non-existent Nazis and mythical “death panels,” I really appreciated this attempt at, you know, sanity and common sense: http://tinyurl.com/l9f4g2
34 SFTor1 // Aug 15, 2009 at 6:31 pm
I don’t know how to back this up with hard data, but perhaps people would agree that there are more guns on the right than on the left. Mixed with anger and racism it is a potentially combustible brew.
It has been a long time since we had armed militant groups on the left. I would surmise that the Weather Underground and the Black Panthers were the last ones, although I am open to be be updated on this.
Squeaky Fromme tried to shoot Ford, but she didn’t have the necessary NRA training to get a bullet into the chamber of her gun.
This is not a hard assertion, but perhaps something to consider.
35 MFarmer // Aug 15, 2009 at 7:07 pm
“And if Obama had made incendiary comments about insurance company employees, suggested they were evil, anti American, not real Americans at all having been born elsewhere, were plotting to bring foreign doctrines to these shores, hated certain groups of Americans?……And since the subject is Hitler…..he then wasn’t responsible for outrages against Jews committed by his followers during his movements rise to power even though he’d incited such occurrences?”
Lay off the caffeine — yes, then he would be responsible, just like I said. And if Ron Paul had urged followers to carry a gun, he would be responsible. But since they haven’t urged these things, they are not responsible.
36 ottovbvs // Aug 15, 2009 at 7:23 pm
MFarmer // Aug 15, 2009 at 7:07 pm
“Lay off the caffeine — yes, then he would be responsible,”
……….I’m not on the caffeine…….those as you must surely recognize are all charges that have been made against the president by, not Ron Paul, but officials and leading voices within the GOP……That would make them responsible wouldn’t it?
37 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 7:25 pm
You mean the one by the British director that was roundly criticized by Democrats?
Yes I do.
38 MFarmer // Aug 15, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Otto — well, the officials who are promoting all that do shoulder responsibility for their followers believing that — but what has that got to do with Ron Paul being reponsible for someone carrying a gun?
39 MFarmer // Aug 15, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Would David Frum be responsible if one of his readers beat up Rush Limbaugh? Frum can be responsible for leading readers to dislike Limbaugh, but he has never suggested someone carry a blackjack and beat the hell out Limbaugh.
40 sinz54 // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:27 pm
sftor1 sez: “I don’t know how to back this up with hard data, but perhaps people would agree that there are more guns on the right than on the left. Mixed with anger and racism it is a potentially combustible brew.”
The FBI and the Secret Service are paid to worry about those things. That’s their job.
BTW, there is no evidence, apart from unsupported deliberate smear tactics by the Democrats, that 99% of those in the crowds angry over ObamaCare are motivated by “racism.” They’re outraged over the fact that ObamaCare was going to be railroaded through Congress and signed into law by Obama in little more than 4 months, with no opportunity for debate whatsoever between the Left and anyone who’s not Left. As if Obama, the self-proclaimed “post-partisan” president, couldn’t care less what any non-Leftists thought about it.
Guess what. I find that outrageous too.
Bottom line: Obama brought this on himself by his arrogance–by his ridiculous assumption that he could run the nation as if its political center of gravity were San Francisco.
He screwed up. Now let him fix it.
41 folderol // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Nancy Pelosi can talk about swastikas; there can be loads of commentary from lib commentators about “angry mobs”, either of the Brooks Brothers or trailer-trash type, whatever the mood of the commentator is; Harry Reid can talk about “hate-mongers”; those speaking their minds can be dismissed as bought-off astroturfers; and yet David Frum can be relied upon to place the blame on “angry talk radio” and those firebrand right-wing extremists who allegedly lap up every word. It’s the reason the “New Majority” will always be a teeny tiny minority.
“It is possible to express opposition to a president’s policies without preposterous name-calling …” But apparently David Frum thinks that’s A-OK when it comes to criticizing conservatives.
42 folderol // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:39 pm
ottovbvs:
““What she said was, “I am a fan of disrupters. Franklin Roosevelt was a disrupter.” This means to me that she is saying that disrupting the status quo, ”
……..One of Chek’s specialities……the out of context quote…….not quite fibbing but nearly”
I’ve heard the whole clip. Pelosi clearly likes left-wing agitators and disrupters. They are “American”; right-wing disrupters “un-American”. The context can’t be massaged very much betyond that.
43 Chris Balsz // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:39 pm
It’s despicable that you try to claim that not only do we not know who beat up Kevin Gladney, you claim a beating is a “bloodless encounter”. A video showing witnesses yell at a suspect and waiting around to testify against him to responding officers and cheering as he’s handcuffed can hardly leave you perplexed as to whether anything happened at all. Shame on you for trying to shove Kevin Gladney down the Memory Hole.
44 ldenton // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:44 pm
The last thing any true conservative wants is for someone to take a potshot at Obama. I hope the Secret Service works extra overtime to protect him at all costs. My reasons are two-fold:
1. I’m really enjoying watching him reverse himself on all the foolish campaign promises he made. As my mother taught me long ago, “talk is cheap.” I’m getting a real kick out of watching the liberals have this realization dawn on them.
2. Joe Biden. Enough said.
45 David Frum carefully contructs clay human buttocks, places them over his face, goes outside and chats up the locals… | Be John Galt // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:44 pm
[...] David Frum sits back, takes it all in, realizes that the Sarah Palin and conservatives are making some real [...]
46 ndanielson // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:49 pm
frum has become as irrelevant as kathleen parker. the party of racists is the party of liberalism. hypocrites to the nth degree. frum and parker are at home in the party of hypocrites. they will write anything to get published, the edgier the headline, the better. i haven’t read parker since her Palin diatribe, and refuse to read frum after his attempt to slander Levin. let them twist in the wind. don’t even click their crap and give them the almighty counter “hit”.
47 Midas // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:51 pm
David, will you just go ahead and spontaneously combust, please? It’s bad enough that we have to deal with the overt dishonesty coming from the left on a daily basis, but we also have to endure and combat your subversive asinine statements from within? Please. I beg you. Retire; go away; live a long and prosperous life in anonymity somewhere else where we don’t have to hear your inane blathering on a routine basis. Thanks in advance, David.
48 ndanielson // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:51 pm
oh, and my bad for not noticing this to be a frum rant…
49 folderol // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:53 pm
“The House of Representatives’ version of healthcare reform offered coverage for ‘end of life’ counseling.” This legislation inspired Sarah Palin to accuse Obama of planning ‘death panels’ to extinguish the old and the disabled -an accusation seized and repeated by Sean Hannity on Fox News.”
Absolute b.s. Sarah Palin never wrote anything of the kind. Her comments brought the fact of RATIONING into the discussion. There is nothing in her comments about “extinguishing” anyone. Call them bureaucratic life-and-death panels, if you want.
David Frum gets his knickers in a twist if some lib hero of the moment is taken out of context, but he delights in doing that to conservatives.
50 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Uh, no.
51 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 9:07 pm
I would as well, if it had any relation to what’s going on in this side of the mirror-universe.
In THIS universe a bunch of dead-enders believe Barack Obama was born in Kenya and everyone from the governor of Hawaii to the CIA are involved in covering it up. Meanwhile a surprising number of spineless Republicans are afraid to come right and say that insane because you’d vote them out of office. So we get comments like: “Obama is a citizen, as far as I know.”
And least it would be surprising if we hadn’t gone through eight years of secret lesbian Hillary Clinton as Vince Foster assassin, aided by the Mena coke running president.
52 folderol // Aug 15, 2009 at 9:24 pm
rbottoms:
“Pelosi clearly likes left-wing agitators and disrupters. ”
‘Uh, no.’
Uh, yes. Pelosi:
“I thank all of you who have spoken out for your courage, your point of view. All of this, your advocacy is very American and very important. I understand your anger. When Franklin Roosevelt died — and I… I draw great inspiration from him because he was a disrupter; and I’m a fan of disrupters, people who make — make change.”
I wonder what vital context I’m missing here.
As for your point about Vince Foster and anti-Clinton hysteria: red herring. Cute, though.
53 Dear David Frum - krempasky’s blog - RedState // Aug 15, 2009 at 9:27 pm
[...] you’re working hard to modernize the Republican party/Conservative movement an all..but we haven’t been RedState.org in [...]
54 rrpjr // Aug 15, 2009 at 9:32 pm
The phenomenon of self-deluding appeasement and studied moral forgetfulness in fools like Frum interests me. No crucial moment in history would be complete without them. The fools are necessary, somehow. They are part of the great moral drama. But they are bit players in the end. The historical forces of legitimate outrage of this movement will roll past them.
Palin holds more understanding in her passing thoughts about the nature of the Left and about the challenges to American exceptionalism at this moment than Frum could write a book about. If he doesn’t realize this, he does realize the influence she alone had in driving the debate last week. And that drives him crazy. As a result, we all need to “get a grip.” Har, har, har. We’re getting a grip, all right, Frum. Around the throats of the Left. And we’re not letting go.
55 ksm // Aug 15, 2009 at 9:47 pm
David -
You need to get your facts straight. The video of the Ken Gladney’s attack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBdbTVUeay8) does not, as you claim, start with Ken on the ground. The man on the ground is an African American SEIU person in a blue-ish shirt and light pants (hear Ken say of that man at 1:19 “That guy attacked me”). Ken is thrown to the ground around 0:06 into the video, clearly by another guy wearing a purple SEIU shirt and the same type of button (I think it says “We Can’t Wait”) as the original attacker. Ken is the one wearing a tan shirt and dark shorts.
The second attacker later justifies his actions by saying of Ken “He attacked America”.
There is also a video where an anti-obama protester had her video camera slammed into her face by another SEIU protester.
If you have these facts wrong, I wonder what else you have wrong.
56 Joe In NH // Aug 15, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Question: Would we be seeing posters of the President as Hitler; of the President as the Joker in whiteface; hear people talk about the President being a communist and that he is planning to turn America into a gulag if a nice distinguished white irishman like Joe Biden was President and Obama VP? I doubt it. I can not imagine a poster with Biden in a brown shirt. I would guess that 99% or more of the people against the proposed health care bill are NOT racists but what about that 1% who get on the cable news? I am talking about the people saying they want their America back and a America with Obama POTUS is not their America. In the long run these people will do the Conservative movement more harm than good.
57 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Being quite literal aren’t you?
If you’ve lived in the Bay Area for any amount of time you’ve heard dozens of firms claim to be disruptive of the status quo. Try that context if you can wrap your mind around it.
58 Jeffriesboys // Aug 15, 2009 at 10:25 pm
What I fail to understand is why the intelligensia of our generation (that would include you Mr. Frum) continue to berate true conservatives for outrage over the injustices being thrust on America and the blatant disgregard for our Constitution. The current administration is trashing the constitution, Obama has avowed COMMUNISTS installed as Czars. When the left displays crufixes in urine and elephant dung it is celebrated as art, when they march down main street in all manners of crude dress and drag it is called “lifestyle” choices, when they called Bush a facist and made movies about his death it was called Free speech. BUT when hard working Americans get riled up about their health care being hijacked, end of life care being regulated, “whole life cost” approaches being discussed and codified into law not to mention the possibility of our tax dollars going to fund abortions WE are told to calm down. Well, Mr. Frum, I REFUSE to calm down. This man is a 2 bit charlatan. He didn’t even finish his first term as a Senator. He is completely unqualified for the job as President. He hasn’t run a company, he has NO managerial experience. The sum total of his life experiences amount to – sitting around smoking pot with admitted marxists and feminists in college (his words, not mine), working briefly in a law firm, a law professor and a COMMUNITY ORGANIZER along the lines of ACORN and SEIU. He is trampling on the constitution (I fully understand that the stimulus mess was started under Bush) and I FOR ONE WON’T BE SILENT. Just like Hitler, the big businesses in our country think by going along with him, they will be spared from his wrath, the big joke is that they will not. He will toss them aside once they have serve their usefulness. Thank God for people like Rush, Palin, Beck and Hannity who have the courage to stand up against this nonsense. And in the end, Mr. Frum, the joke will be on you and those like you. Those who chose to berate conservatives for being passionately opposed to this CRAP! For we (the grassroots, non-RINO Conservatives) surround YOU and we have had enough. We are coming out of the wood work and we won’t sit down and shut up until we have taken the government back.
59 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 10:29 pm
“Good luck with that.”
~ Wolverine, X3
60 Jeffriesboys // Aug 15, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Oh one more thing, Mr Frum, NO I CAN NOT GET A GRIP. See you in DC 9/12
61 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 10:41 pm
I am coming to the opinion that Obama has been doing the rope-a-dope on you people. And he’s the one with the rope. (Looking forward to Chuck Grassley explain how he was for death panels before he was against them for instance.)
If this is as insane as you people get after just eight months in office I expect you’ll dissolving into puddles of incoherence after the 2010 elections.
How popular do you think the GOP will be when it comes time to run on a platform of rooting for GM to fail and unemployment insurance being only for the lazy at the height of the crisis. All indications are the economy is set for a comeback.
If unemployment is 8% come next November your guys are flat done. Funny, that’s right about the time the stimulus money will really start to kick in. I can easily see guys out building roads and bridges complaining about how that evil Obama put them to work.
People who have COBRA subsidies, and extra money in their unemployment checks know exactly who to thank, and it’s not Sarah (I can see crazy from my house) Palin.
62 folderol // Aug 15, 2009 at 10:48 pm
rbottoms:
“If you’ve lived in the Bay Area for any amount of time you’ve heard dozens of firms claim to be disruptive of the status quo. Try that context if you can wrap your mind around it.”
I can wrap my mind around it. I’m sure Nancy Pelosi soin’t quite as “nuanced” in her thinking as you may like her to be.
63 folderol // Aug 15, 2009 at 10:52 pm
By the way, rbottom, that Bay Area nuance still doesn’t address the first part of the Pelosi quote:
““I thank all of you who have spoken out for your courage, your point of view. All of this, your advocacy is very American and very important. I understand your anger.”
Maybe there’s some sort of courageous, angry Bay Area advocacy technology I don’t know about.
“People who have COBRA subsidies, and extra money in their unemployment checks know exactly who to thank, and it’s not Sarah (I can see crazy from my house) Palin.”
Crazy like a fox. Your problem is that much more of the public agrees with Crazy Sarah than with Barack (”I won’t unplug Grandma — I won’t plug her in in the first place”) Obama.
64 anniemargret // Aug 15, 2009 at 10:54 pm
The Republicans are sinking their own ship, and what’s really really weird….is that they like it doing it.
I hope Palin, Coulter, Beck, Limbaugh et al continue with their attacks against President Obama . It just makes them look and sound more bitter, more pathetic, more angry, more devisive.
I hope Republicans continue their scourge against healthcare reform because those millions of Americans who are going to bed tonight worrying about how they are going to pay for their child’s illness or their spouse’s disability or their parent’s dementia…….will remember in 2012 who was on their side and who wasn’t.
Btw, that means the 63 million people that voted Obama as President are all latte-drinking, Birkenstock-wearing, Frisco hippie ‘lily-livered liberals,’right? What planet are you all living on?
And David Frum is warning that all this vicious rhetoric might be hurting the image of Republicanism..? From the attacks against him here… give up Mr. Frum. You tried, but it ain’t gonna happen in your lifetime. The ideology is set……in cement.
65 folderol // Aug 15, 2009 at 10:59 pm
anniemargaret: “The Republicans are sinking their own ship, and what’s really really weird….is that they like it doing it.”
The polls would indicate otherwise.
66 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:00 pm
No, Sarah “Quitter” Palin is crazy like Larouche.
67 folderol // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:04 pm
“No, Sarah “Quitter” Palin is crazy like Larouche.”
LaRouche never took over a national debate. Now we have Obama emoting about not unplugging Grandma as a feature of his intricately staged “town hall meetings”.
By the way, anniemargret: The reality is that the Democrats are cutting their own throats…and the really weird thing is, most of them don’t realize it.
68 anniemargret // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:13 pm
folerol: “The polls would indicate otherwise.”
Bill Clinton: “”The minute the president signs this bill, his approval will go up. Within a year, when the good things begin to happen, and the bad things they’re saying will happen don’t happen, approval will explode.”
69 anniemargret // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:17 pm
folerol: I couldn’t disagree with you more. The majority of people want healthcare reform in this country; they also intensely dislike incendiary rhetoric, and definitely don’t like being lied to.
I would say Republicans have a lot more to worry about than Democrats.
But hey….this is a representative democracy, if the Republicans want to take back the Presidency in 2012, they can go for it. To the victor, goes the spoils.
70 rbottoms // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:17 pm
You say that like it’s a bad thing. The fact that Palin, a modern day Larouche, has come to dominate your party is an indication that the believers in a 4,000 year old earth, the global warming myth, and capitalism unfettered by any regulatory restraints has come to dominate the GOP.
I think it’s just great.
Meanwhile William F. Buckley is spinning in his grave.
Twenty-five years of playing to the anti-abortion zealots, the anti-Evolution nuts, and the gun wackos has left the Republican party in the hands of people who celebrate gut feeling over intelligence. You know the very folks who gave us a trillion dollar war over non-existent weapons and wrecked the economy putting us a hair away from a second depression.
Eventually the guy with tears streaming down his face because he is afraid Obama is going to kill his wheelchair-bound son is going to wake up to the utter lack of apocalypse and wonder if perhaps he was lied to for political gain.
71 noufa // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Pretty weak, rbottoms. People have heard those corporate cliches in flyover country, too. Your context changes anything. Pelosi’s comments referred to people who were shouting & interrupting her speech:
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jan/15/local/me-pelosi15
She was clearly trying to get the interrupters back on her side. I agree that the reductio ad Hitlerum needs to stop. But Pelosi feeds the mob when it’s on her side. What am I missing?
72 mrh // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:36 pm
GT
If America burns it wil be beacuse it is no longer America.
That will be the result of the Left forcing the Right to re-create what the Left distroyed.
Liberty.
73 noufa // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:44 pm
Oh, nevermind. rbottoms is just a troll.
How does Frum hope to control the “Paulistas”? They owe him (and the rest of us in the mainstream GOP) nothing.
74 SFTor1 // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:45 pm
Grab your musket, mrh,
your country needs you at Bunker Hill. Oh, wait, this is about getting people health care. Silly me.
British troops: red coats.
doctor: white coat.
There’s a difference I suppose.
75 Orion // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:45 pm
anniemargret: “No question some liberals used this awful analogy with Bush…”
BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Understatement of the decade. As Jon Stewart said, “Hitler would be getting pretty angry about these comparisons of him to Bush. He worked awfully hard to make that reputation for himself.”
Anyway, many of the signs and shouters out there comparing Obama to Hitler are actually Lyndon Larouche supporters. The Larouche website is full of photoshopped images of Obama as Hitler and the ones you see at townhalls are almost all taken from there. Larouche, btw., wants a single-payer, Canada-style health care system implemented. Apparently he’s upset that Obama wimped out on his early support for that system.
76 SFTor1 // Aug 15, 2009 at 11:50 pm
“Sarah Palin never wrote anything of the kind. Her comments brought the fact of RATIONING into the discussion. There is nothing in her comments about “extinguishing” anyone. Call them bureaucratic life-and-death panels, if you want.”
BS. I read her verbatim comments. She was talking about her son Trig going up in front of a death panel. Don’t argue. You know it’s true.
77 DavidMac62 // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:12 am
Yes and no. Yes, people on both sides of the red state/blue state divide scream “NAZI” without giving serious thought to the specific merits of a comparison. No, on the other hand, the last two letters in nazi are shorthand for the German word for socialism, and in a very real sense both Nazism and rationed healthcare(at least in this case) are based on a kind of collectivism known as Eugenics, whereby an elite corp of intellectuals uses technology to engage in one form or other of social engineering. Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel, Obama’s chief healthcare advisor, described his “Complete Lives System” thusly:
“Such an approach accepts a two-tiered health system-some citizens will receive only basic services while others will receive both basic and some discretionary health services… Substantively, it suggests services that promote the continuation of the polity-those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations-are to be socially guaranteed as basic. Conversely, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.”
In their own words, Dad, they are asking for nothing more, nothing less, and nothing other than the power of life and death. At the Nuremburg trials, Albert Speer remarked that the power of National Socialism was in it’s intentional vagueness, i.e. it could be presented in one light to Catholics, another to Protestants, a third to atheists, etc. Likewise, “…continuation of the polity” can be defined any way you like, or more to the point, used to deny neccessary healthcare to anybody you don’t like.
I’m quite certain that the Bolsheviks and The Red Guard both looked visibly and measurably different from Hitler’s Brownshirts in the beginning. Did those superficial differences stop Stalin from carrying the tradition of anti-Jewishs pograms to new heights based on new technology? Did it stop Mao from “solving” a widespread national heroin problem by simply taking all of his users and dealers and slaughtering MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of them? Collectivism is collectivism. Always, without exception, pretty in its promises; always, without exception, ugly in it’s delivery.
78 dragonlady // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:20 am
Frum is denouncing fear-mongering hyprebole by…engaging in fear-mongering hyperbole himself. There always has been and always will be fringe folks who view the opposition as the Other, an enemy not to be compromised with at any costs. Those on the right who equate Obama to Hitler are extreme ideologues just like those on the left who equated Bush to Hitler. But to use ancetodal evidence from one NM “reporter” to paint the whole swath of townhall protestors as the Obama-Hitler types is beyond the pale. For someone who advocates reason (which I agree with), Frum’s writings lead more often with emotion.
79 dragonlady // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:26 am
davidmac62 “Collectivism is collectivism. Always, without exception, pretty in its promises; always, without exception, ugly in it’s delivery.”
You shacked the target–that pretty much sums it up.
80 SFTor1 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:02 am
davidmac says: “In their own words, Dad, they are asking for nothing more, nothing less, and nothing other than the power of life and death.”
And this is based on a provision for voluntary end-of-life care? Ezekiel Emmanuel has gone public in explaining that he was taken out of context. He was not advocating the views expressed in the quote. He does not advocate these views.
Your faith in your fellow Americans is a little shaky. Have a drink. Relax.
81 greg_barton // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:25 am
See, this is what I love about this site: it’s a right wing hypocrisy diorama. Today there’s a story on the front page titled “Group Think in Obamaland.” The comments above demonstrate the enforcement of group think in right-wing-o-land. From the get go int he comments there are right wingers trying to beat Frum into submission for the crime of a little critical introspection and/or expressing an unpopular opinion.
82 greg_barton // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:38 am
anniemargret: “The Republicans are sinking their own ship, and what’s really really weird….is that they like it doing it.”
That’s because they’re most comfortable as a political minority, constantly complaining about how oppressed they are. Seriously. That’s their comfort zone.
83 palomino // Aug 16, 2009 at 3:10 am
rjr: “We’re getting a grip, all right, Frum. Around the throats of the Left. And we’re not letting go.”
The problem is that they have too many throats and you don’t have enough hands. Check the math in Congress. They’ll pass something, even if it’s watered down, and declare victory. And a million oldsters screaming for the “govt to get its socialist hands off my medicare” won’t make a difference.
The commenter’s sentiment reflects what’s currently wrong in the party: testosterone fueled emotion trumping facts and logic. You guys hate Frum because he points out the shortcomings of the current GOP and conservative movement. But you don’t want to hear this as you refuse to acknowledge any problem. Somehow decisive losses in 2006 and 2008 mean nothing to you.
84 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 4:13 am
The thing is, I am a Yellow Dog Democrat, if Jesus and Satan were running for congress, and Satan was the Democrat, the best you’d get from me is not voting at all.
Frum is trying to rescue from your own hyterical blindness, but thankfully for me you aren’t about to listen to him. And I couldn’t be more pleased.
85 journeyman // Aug 16, 2009 at 7:37 am
Hey Frum, Pelosi started this round of accuastions by saying that those who were attending the townhalls were carrying swatikas and such shit. You also need a lesson in history. NAZI’S stands for
national socialism and it’s politcally and philosophically on the left, not the right. You’re just another idiot of the left. So how would you like that historical enema?
86 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 8:16 am
Political debates are often hyperbolic in tone. This is not new or unusual. It also serves to keep both sides from flirting with many of the bad ideas experimented with in other countries. The use of the left/right dichotomy is useful for partisan politics but not for thoughtful public policy.
It is however useful to define public policy for what it is. The use of state power (force of government) to redistribute wealth ( not always but in health care) in a fashion that conforms to the goal of a political party. The use of this power is always characterized as helping or correcting wrongs. The vast use of this power is something to be wary of implementing as the historical record shows.
The fact that Mr Frum dismisses such concern is typical of conservatives who are ( in Washington) in many cases at the forefront of using public policy at times to implement the goals of the Moral Majority.
The correct terms are important: fascism is the regulation through state power of private property, communism is the outright regulation and ownership of all private property, therefore it is not outrageous to call the tyrannical regulation of state power by its proper name.
87 trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 8:20 am
A brief exchange I had with the esteemed Mr. Frum yesterday for the entertainment of some and the dismay of others:
I just Googled “Hitler Bush” and “Hitler Obama”. Over 8 million hits for the former and about 100,000 for the latter. Okay, may not mean a whole lot but what is meaningful is that I don’t recall a single column of your ever taking issue with all the odious Bush comparisons to Hitler.
The stench of the Holocaust so overwhelms the Nazi era that it is easy to overlook the many many lessons to be learned from that era. Just like Hitler’s vegetarianism puts the lie to the many myths of the wonders of a vegetarian diet but nobody ever talks about it. Killing Jews was not the first priority of the Nazis when they were elected, I repeat elected, to power. The Nazi party evolved just as the Democrats are now evolving. I don’t expect to see death camps but I do expect an enemies list and I do expect to see a number of such enemies in prison.
Furthermore, the most important thing to remember is that the Nazi party was a party of victims. It’s primary appeal is that the German people were unjustifiably humiliated on account of poor leadership and as a consequence had suffered horribly and first and formost the Nazi party would correct those injustices. Like the Democrats the Nazis were a party of victims speaking for victims. That is the most important lesson of the era, not the Holocaust per se.
Check this out and tell me you don’t see analogies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSNsR95-eUo&feature=related
—– Original Message —–
From: DFrum@NewMajority
To
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: Dead Wrong
1) You dont remember me defending George Bush? ME???
2) Killing Jews WAS Hitler’s first priority and violent military expansionism was his second. Read any book about the Nazi era, I mean any serious book. See for example Ian Kershaw’s biography of Hitler or Richard Evan’s history of the Third Reich. Even their social welfarism was militaristic, racist and expansionist. See Gotz Aly’s book on Hitler’s welfare state. It’s an important subject and it deserves real history, not the kind of polemics dished up by too many conservative authors these days.
DF
You’re not reading my e mail properly. Of course you defended Bush. That’s not what I accused you of so I’ll let you check my first e mail. If I am wrong in the narrow regard that I noted I stand to be corrected. I’ve read much of what you’ve written but not all obviously.
Much more importantly, as for your reference to Hitler’s first priority I am truly disappointed that even someone erudite like yourself would come to that conclusion especially given your reference to Kershaw. It is precisely a close reading of Kershaw which tells you exactly the opposite. Early in his “career” Hitler targeted Jews in two ways and hard to say which was his priority. For one, his hated Marxism was a Jewish plot and therefore he hated Jews. Secondly, Jews were vermin consistent with shall we say his eugenic philosophy. Hitler’s first and foremost goal was the creation of his master race his cherished Aryan brotherhood and, accordingly, glory in a Roman sense perhaps for his beloved master race. Everything else was to advance that goal. There is for example no question at all that serious consideration was given to alternative “solutions” prior to the Swansee conference. That they all would have in the long run led in some way to Jewish extermination is undeniable but none were in the category of the death factories of the Holocaust. The relentless pursuit of extermination was a policy that arose only because by 1942 the German backs were already well against the wall and they responded like the snakes that they were.
Notwithstanding the many important differences between this era and that one, I would suggest that the events of the years 1919 more or less through 1945 examined objectively and carefully have much more to teach us and the fact of the Holocaust, the final years of the regime, so obscures and even distorts this that we are missing a few things that are in plain sight.
Hitler did not excite the imagination of Germans because he promised to rid the world of Jews. To the contrary, Hitler had a positive message for them. He had a dream. All scoundrels have a dream.
88 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 8:41 am
One of Chek’s specialities……the out of context quote…….not quite fibbing but nearly”
Not all. The Left had not problem with demonstrations, disruptions as long as they were aimed at Bush. Same with the Nazi rhetoric or movies despicting the assassination of Bush. I am more than prepared to expose the hypocrisy on the Right and I have done so many times. But what about people on the Left? No hypocrisy there?
89 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 8:53 am
Annie
The point is that Frum is not being balanced in his criticism. That is what people are objecting to. It was Pelosi who started the Nazi and un-American attack which was stupid. People are not un-American for showing up at a townhall to protest. Even if they are being disuptive (BTW, look at the YouTube I linked. Pelosi constantly says that it is okay for people to shout at a townhall meeting), you can say they are rude. But un-American?! Pleeeeeeease.
Also, Frum needs to let Rush, Coulter go. Unless he is trying to get hits on his website. If Frum wants to change the GOP, he needs to promote ideas. Show leadership. Rush, Coulter and the rest are not leaders. They just react to what their audience wants as any good entertainer does.
90 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:00 am
She was talking about her son Trig going up in front of a death panel. Don’t argue. You know it’s true.
She was suggesting that scenario for sure. I objected to Palin’s rhetoric and because of it I got banned at a right wing site I used to frequent. It appears that in some right wing quarters, Palin has become the latest litmus test (as if we didn’t have enough of them already!). Anything less than pure adoration for Mama Grizzly, as I call her, will get you banned or the RINO label.
91 sinz54 // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:11 am
greg_barton sez: “beat Frum into submission ”
No.
But I, at least, will continue to point out that Frum is flat wrong when he:
a) Lacks historical context (check the Google News archive of the last 70 years to see how many times various public figures have been accused of being “worse than Hitler”)
b) Gets upset over nothing. Hyperbole is part of politics.
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=612
c) Comes dangerously close to a chilling effect on the First Amendment. The Supreme Court has ruled that Americans can’t directly incite violence, or incite panic that would lead to injury. Other than that, we’re free to say whatever we want. And that includes comparing public figures to Hitler or other Nazis.
d) Continues to buy into the liberals’ notion that we must coddle Obama just because, after all, he’s “the first black President.” And it would be such a disaster if “the first black President” were assassinated. (If Joe Biden isn’t capable of assuming the Presidency, then Obama shouldn’t have nominated him.)
If (heaven forbid) something bad were to happen to Obama, Biden would assume the Presidency, and the country would go on. We would wake up in our beds the next morning, same as always–and NOTHING would be different in our daily personal lives.
So what’s all the fuss about?
92 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:16 am
trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 8:20 am
………As far as I can tell this seems a lengthy exercise in the usual equivalence game played by the right (you called Bush Hitler so it’s ok for us to do the same) mixed up with a debate about Hitler’s priorities. The suggestion that David, who was a Bush flak, has been anything less than assiduous in defending Bush from nonsensical Hitler analogies is surely absurd, so I’m not quite sure what point the author is trying to make.
However, on the issues of Hitler’s priorities he’s probably right. Hitler could walk and chew gum at the same time. He has several goals and their relative importance shifted around over time but obviously German expansionism and the destruction of the jews were high amongst them. Trying to draw a line between which was “more important” in Hitler’s fevered brain seems futile. While a great book (3 volumes actually) I’m not sure I find Kershaw’s biography to the most insightful when it comes to analysing Hitler’s outlook or priorities. The best understanding of these comes from the Joachim Fest biog, probably because he was a German. Kershaw however hits on an interesting theme that is perhaps relevant to this thread and that is that not every action against the Jews or in other areas sprung ready formed from Hitler’s mind, but rather was the working out of a tendency amongst Hitler’s followers to anticipate what he might want. Kershaw calls this (quoting some obscure Nazi) “working towards the Fuehrer.” This is an insight which I’m sure is completely true based on my experience of how people behave. It used to be called out -Heroding Herod (ie. Herod said kill all the babies under 1 year, let’s make sure and kill all those under 2 years). Thus leaders need to be mindful of what they say to their followers because when passions are aroused people tend to go overboard. That said Trajan’s final conclusion that only scoundrels have dreams is rather puerile. Was Ghandi a scoundrel, Churchill, MLK, Bill Gates, Henry Ford, TR, Jonas Salk ?
93 sinz54 // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:19 am
Chekote sez: “The point is that Frum is not being balanced in his criticism. That is what people are objecting to.”
No, I’m NOT just objecting to that.
That’s all true, of course.
But it’s not the only issue.
The issue is, that noisy, angry demonstrations WORK to raise people’s consciousness (a term invented by the Left, btw). The people get interested in what’s going on. After mulling it over, they may decide they don’t agree with the demonstrators, that’s their right as Americans. But at least they’re not sleeping through the issue anymore.
The Dems were hoping to railroad ObamaCare through Congress during summertime when America is asleep–Americans spending more time at barbecues or picnics or baseball or the beach than worrying about politics. The demonstrators broke through that collective drowsiness and woke up the public to at least listen to the debate going on. And the more they listened, and the more they participated themselves on the Internet and elsewhere, the less they liked ObamaCare. The whole country is talking about ObamaCare now.
And that’s something Frum could never accomplish with his blog at New Majority.
And that’s fine.
New Majority was never intended to be a vehicle for political organizing or consciousness-raising. It was intended to be a vehicle for ideas.
But the wonks with ideas should be gracious enough to acknowledge the value of the other folks who do the political organizing.
94 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:24 am
Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 8:53 am
“It was Pelosi who started the Nazi and un-American attack which was stupid. People are not un-American for showing up at a townhall to protest.”
……..Give me a break using the Nazi epithet has been standard Republican boilerplate for months……All Pelosi said was people were showing up at meetings carrying Nazi signs……and since I’ve seen lots of them on tv she wasn’t wrong…..and all she said was “un-American” was disrupting meetings which is also correct…….someone above has the full quote…..there’s nothing untrue or particularly incendiary about it……basically you’re looking for alibis, rationales, justifications for rather stupid behavior
95 anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:25 am
Well, Chekote, I have a feeling you and I would get along just fine and sip a vino if we were to meet. I do understand that there is hyperbole and insults flung from the sidelines, but I get my dander up when I see people shouting down and obliterating meetings that are held for informational purposes.
Protest is American, as American as apple pie, as we all know about Boston’s famous tea party, and the Civil War’s ‘draft riots’ of 1863.
However…healthcare reform is about money and it is about people. It is a serious issue and as such should be treated seriously. What we are seeing at these town hall meetings are people hell bent on preventing anyone from asking legitimate questions, and to me, that infringement of the listener’s rights. I have read some people say that they are ‘afraid’ to go to the meetings because some of these protesters are so ugly and so fierce, that they feel there will be violence. That isn’t protest, that intimidation!
I am reminded about the Code Pink yellers who are almost always escorted from the audience once they start their shouting and yelling so that the speaker cannot speak.
Frum is talking about Rush/Coulter/Palin because he gets it. Palin IS the litmus test now for Republicanism. If the Democrats had put out a fringer to speak for the party, I would be the first one to counteract it, not support it. Perception is everything…what people see and hear is their perception of who and what the party is. Right now, the GOP has no leaders who can speak intelligently and respectfully. They have allowed the extremists to take over the podium, and that is where the danger lies for the GOP.
And what’s wrong with being a ‘moderate’ Republican? Would anyone brand Reagan, Bush 41 or even Eisenhower as right wingers? Of course not. I think Frum is being hung out to dry because he is saying the obvious. If I go to Kos or Huffington there are some extreme views there on the left as well, which I find non-constructive. Entertaining maybe…but non-constructive.
The “un-American” label in point of true fact was started by Karl Rove and his merry band during the run-up to the Iraq war. I distinctly remember Bill O’Reilly and Neil Cavuto on Fox pointing their fingers at the camera and saying that any American who had the audacity to criticize that war not a patriot. The word ‘un-American’ was connected to anyone who spoke out against that war. I know I was criticized fiercely by some friends for saying they were invading Iraq for other reasons then we would led to believe. Words like ‘traitor’ “un-American’ ‘unpatriotic’ were used liberally by so-called ‘conservatives’ about Iraq if you thought it was a bad idea.
We can spend all day, every day, arguing ‘who started it’. To me, this is silly. Both sides say stupid things but if the direction goes haywire, that is when it should be righted. Agree?
96 sinz54 // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:31 am
ottovbs sez: “Was Ghandi a scoundrel, Churchill, MLK, Bill Gates, Henry Ford, TR, Jonas Salk ?”
I know a lot of engineers who, frankly, despise Bill Gates as a scoundrel.
Mostly because Microsoft invented very little, and acquired very much from others instead. (Bill Gates never invented MS-DOS, Microsoft’s original flagship product that made the company big. He ripped it off from a small company, then turned around and sold it to IBM for millions of dollars.) Microsoft, frankly, showed how the “robber baron” practices of 19th century capitalists could be applied to late 20th century software products.
“Name one thing they’ve ever invented on their own? Seriously, name one! If you think of any, send me an e-mail, and I’ll research it to find out who they bought it from.”
— Scott McNealy, Sun Microsystems
97 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:33 am
sinz54 // Aug 15, 2009 at 8:27 pm
” Bottom line: Obama brought this on himself by his arrogance–by his ridiculous assumption that he could run the nation as if its political center of gravity were San Francisco.”
………Oh you mean like the Jews brought it on themselves, or civil rights workers, or suffragettes……..another self parody from Sinz……for your info reforming healthcare was always a central part of his platform or did you sleep through the election?
98 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:41 am
sinz54 // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:31 am
“I know a lot of engineers who, frankly, despise Bill Gates as a scoundrel.”
………..As competitor perhaps which is what you are really talking about……..you really are an astoundingly unimaginative man Sinz…….Ford didn’t INVENT the automobile but he translated it from plaything of the rich into a transportation revolution because of a vision he had…….He was also a bit of scoundrel in that he ultimately succumbed to megalomania……but there’s no getting around the fact he’s one of the most transformative men of the 20th century as is Gates who was in many ways the creator of the pc revolution
99 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:45 am
Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. What part of that does Mr Frum not understand? Wherever possible go outside of the experience of the enemy. Here you want to cause confusion, fear, and retreat. What is wrong with using the tried and true methods of many community organizers?
100 midcon // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:47 am
David, not that you will read this since is it’s the 93 post on this thread, but consider what your post accomplished. It is a great American past time (which used to be baseball) to compare someone (usually of the opposing party) to Hitler and then engage in what I will loosely call a debate over who was more like Hitler; what Hitler was really like; which side used the Hitler comparison first; and on and on and on.
To what end? What was accomplished? Are we more knowledgeable than we were before? Was there some insight that came out it? Surely you could foresee the types of responses this generated. I certainly did and I am sure you are better able to predict responses better than I. I recognize that your purpose may be an attempt to change behavior, but I have come to the conclusion that the more attention you give to clowns the more they act the part. Nearly this entire thread is in the same vein as the silliness that has transpired at the townhalls where nothing but screaming, shouting, and sign waving substitute for intelligent questions and debate regarding serious issues that face the nation.
I do not participate in this drivel because it serves no purpose to me personally or my nation and my fellow citizens. The only value to me in this thread was to reinforce my respect for many of the regular posters (regardless of my agreement with everything they say) and disrespect for the extreme polarizing BS that passes for intelligent thought from many others.
Someone needs to provide a forum and outlet for serious discussion and debate. I remain hopeful that NM reaches its potential to fulfill that need but this should not be part of it because it’s nothing but Nero fiddling.
101 barker13 // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:50 am
Why do conservatives even respond to Frum threads like this other than to note that they’re lame and he’s lame?
All we’re doing is upping his comment count; yeah… me too with this post. (*SHRUG*)
Frum is a manipulative little… (Fill in the blank.)
BILL
102 trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:54 am
Ottovbs:
“That said Trajan’s final conclusion that only scoundrels have dreams is rather puerile.”
You obviously can’t read either.
103 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:58 am
anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:25 am
” Frum is talking about Rush/Coulter/Palin because he gets it. Palin IS the litmus test now for Republicanism.”
………..Frum does indeed “get it.”…….and Palin is indeed the Litmus test…….”spinning” about who said what when are ridiculous and outside of few junkies who hang around sites like this it’s not remotely on the public radar…….At the end of the day this is an debate between rationality and irrationality……the more Palin and her ilk spout about death panels and pulling the plug on granny, hold up Hitler signs, and generally make fools of themselves the more they consign themselves to the irrational camp……I watched Obama in Colorado Springs yesterday, now from what I remember of the Western slope back in the CO oil boom days the Springs was very conservative place, but the crowd about 30% of whom seemed anti Obama to me seemed pretty well behaved………why was that I wonder?….security men, desire to avoid looking silly, sheer amazement the president was in CS (which is pretty remote for those that haven’t been there)……who knows but the meeting seemed a model of how these should be
104 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:03 am
trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:54 am
“You obviously can’t read either.”
………actually I can……I can also tell the difference between the implicit and the explicit
105 trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:08 am
ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:03 am
That is to say you can twist words so that they mean what you want them to mean. I think I know who you voted for in last election. That is implicit.
106 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:16 am
midcon // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:47 am
“It is a great American past time (which used to be baseball) to compare someone (usually of the opposing party) to Hitler……I remain hopeful that NM reaches its potential to fulfill that need but this should not be part of it because it’s nothing but Nero fiddling. ”
………..You completely miss the point……this isn’t about Hitler, he’s just a peg to hang the debate upon because he’s the ultimate demon figure……it’s about hysteria and paranoia on the right which is ultimately self destructive………David who is an experienced political observer who makes his living doing this stuff is merely pointing this out…….for some reason there’s a segment on the right who seem to think irrational public behavior is attractive…….I suppose it has some appeal to voyeurs of the Springer tendency but most people in normal circumstances find it repellant……..this seems quite self evident to me and David by the sound of it………for those that think otherwise just check your reaction the next time some ragged guy pushing a loaded supermarket cart shouts at you
107 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:19 am
trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:08 am
” I think I know who you voted for in last election. That is implicit.”
………….As was the meaning of your “scoundrel” comment…….thanks for confirming it…..and who you voted for btw
108 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:22 am
The majority of political violence comes from the left. The rabble at the town halls disrupts etc. There is a difference between taking liberty and preserving it. The left is all about taking liberty there is practically no policy that they favor would increase liberty all they advocate is the crushing of freedom.
109 trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:37 am
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:22 am
Not entirely gmood. They want to take away YOUR liberty and expand their own licentiousness.
110 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:39 am
We can spend all day, every day, arguing ‘who started it’. To me, this is silly. Both sides say stupid things but if the direction goes haywire, that is when it should be righted. Agree?
I agree. And this presents a great opportunity for NM to provide leadership. Instead, on harping on Rush and Coulter, why not declare that going forward comparisons to Hitler and Nazi Germany should be off limits for both sides? That was a unique event in history. NM could also lead the way by saying that hyper-rhetoric on both sides needs to tone down and start promoting conservative solutions to the current problems.
111 midcon // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:40 am
Otto, yes but….he is merely pointing out what is obvious that there are many on both the left and the right who are addicted to hysteria, paranoia, and demonizing. And again, I will ask to what end? Most everyone can recognize it when we see it. Although I have noticed that each side describes those characteristics in terms more favorable to their side. Still, look at the title “Can We Get A Grip.” It infers that he is member of the set of paranoids, hysterics, and demonizers or that they share the same values, objectives, and goals. His use of the word “We” is interesting in that regard – is “We” the set of Republicans? Conservatives? Conspiracy freaks? Just who is “We.”
Point taken – people do need to get a grip, but the segment that he needs to direct this to has long lost whatever grip they had. Who wants to be a member of this gripless segment? Not me and certainly not most of the regulars here. When he speaks on NM or CNN or wherever, he is not speaking to the gripless because they don’t even share the same reality. I guess that’s ok, because multiple realities make the world less crowded.
But my real point is I would rather spend time disecting and debating the health bill section by section than discussing demons.
112 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:44 am
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:22 am
” The left is all about taking liberty there is practically no policy that they favor would increase liberty all they advocate is the crushing of freedom.”
……..So speaks the authoritarian right who’ve spent most of the last eight years abusing the constitution
trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:37 am
“They want to take away YOUR liberty and expand their own licentiousness.”
…….. You mean two martinis instead of one?
113 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:49 am
It is true Bush damaged freedom but one does not remedy the destruction of liberty by strangling the last breath of freedom.
114 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:54 am
I know the organizers of the Tea Party movement here in the DFW area. They were not inspired by Rush. They were inspired by the Santelli rant. Also, they are Republicans who are completely disgusted with the spending and government expansion that happened under Bush and the Republican Congress. Prior to the townhalls, they organized a demonstration at Kay Bailey Hutchinson’s office. To portray this movement as something that Rush and Coulter are leading is factually incorrect. They are jumping on the bandwagon. To portray this movement as a bunch of racists who can’t stand the idea of a black man being president, is also factually incorrect. Look at how Republican politicians were booed at Tea Parties?
Sen Cornyn Booed, Called a ‘Traitor’ at Austin Tea Party 7-4-2009
Barrett booed at Greenville Tea Party
115 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:55 am
midcon // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:40 am
“Otto, yes but….he is merely pointing out what is obvious that there are many on both the left and the right who are addicted to hysteria, paranoia, and demonizing. And again, I will ask to what end?”
…………To the end of preventing self destructive behavior on the right……..as ever you try to make this an equal opportunity activity when in fact it’s not …..Why?…. because there’s a quantitive difference between a blogger on Kos ranting about Bush as Hitler and Limbaugh or Coulter doing it because they have a bigger megaphone……Likewise Palin and Grassley and the death panels……it’s totally ludicrous to everyone outside the kool aiders…. People have long pointed out this propensity on the right notably Richard Hofstadter so there’s nothing new about it…….the problem for the GOP is that it’s infinitely more dangerous as a tactic than it was in the days of Hofstadter because of changes in demographics, culture and technology which take “Macacca” into a million households in a blink
116 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:55 am
So speaks the authoritarian right who’ve spent most of the last eight years abusing the constitution
How?
117 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:58 am
But my real point is I would rather spend time disecting and debating the health bill section by section than discussing demons.
Exactly. This is where NM can step in and be a different kind of right wing blog. If you want to change the GOP, you need to do it by providing leadership and promoting ideas.
118 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:03 am
Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:54 am
“To portray this movement as a bunch of racists who can’t stand the idea of a black man being president, is also factually incorrect.”
……….You’re creating a strawman…….a few have characterised it this way but it’s not the majority view…….rather you have a group of people who are angry about a number of issues……there’s probably some racism in there somewhere…….but it’s largely inchoate anger by partisan Republicans who were beaten in the election and haven’t got over it…….so they are easily motivated to turn out and create as scene……..you and others think this and hyperbolic language promotes your cause…… David doesn’t in fact as he points out it’s fraught with danger
119 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:07 am
Don’t 80% of journalists vote democrat and isn’t that a pretty big megaphone?
Why does it matter if some one calls some one a name it is just the exercise of freedom. Just ignore it or argue against it. Of course the goal of this is to shut up talk radio with diversity and speech czars.
120 cwillia11 // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:08 am
If we equate socialism with government ownership of the means of production, then it’s not a good label to attach to Obama’s agenda. There are certainly fascist elements to Obama’s domestic policies and there are good reasons to believe that his commitment to the democratic political process is weak. Indirect government control over large corporations, the expansion of the government sector into intimate areas of private life, identity politics, cult of personality, abortion and general disregard for the right to life, demonization of his opponents, scape-goating, undermining public debate of critical issues, political thuggery – these all characterize fascism and they all characterize the Obama Administration to a degree. On the other hand, you can hardly call his foreign policy militaristic and there is not the least shred of anti-Semitism. The problem with calling Obama a Nazi is that the public associates Hitler primarily with militarism and anti-Semitism. It is rhetorically ineffective.
121 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:09 am
Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:58 am
” If you want to change the GOP, you need to do it by providing leadership and promoting ideas.”
……….Actually that’s what Frum is doing …..pointing out that the Palin death panel nonsense is destructive while the leadership of the GOP sit on their hands or apparently as in Grassley’s case join in the chorus…..he also has pointed out some other facts of life like failing to reform healthcare while it may make conservatives (including him) happy still leaves the country with a totally dysfunctional system!
122 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:09 am
“Health care is really hard. This is not easy. I’m a reasonably dedicated student to this issue. I’ve got a lot of really smart people around me who’ve been working on this for months now,” Obama said. “There is no perfect painless silver bullet out there that solves every problem, gives everybody health care for free. There isn’t. I wish there was.”
Health care reform “is really hard” and no” silver bullets”. WOW! What a deep thinker Obama is. Such wisdom and eloquence. He is a master at stating the problem when the teleprompter is on. Not so great in providing workable solutions.
123 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:11 am
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:07 am
“Don’t 80% of journalists vote democrat and isn’t that a pretty big megaphone?”
……..I don’t seem to remember David Gregory, Joe Klein, or Couric assuming they are Democrats although I’m sure they are in your mind going around claiming Bush was Hitler…..think
124 anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:14 am
gmood: “Of course the goal of this is to shut up talk radio with diversity and speech czars.”
As a left of center Dem, I dislike right wing radio and TV, but I uphold the right for them to say it. I don’t think Rush’s show nor Coulter shouldn’t be allowed to voice their opinions. Liberal talk radio didn’t make it.. that’s fair.
But it doesn’t mean the incendiary rhetoric coming out from right wing radio and TV cannot be judged. Or commented on, or called out on.
125 anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:14 am
gmood: “Of course the goal of this is to shut up talk radio with diversity and speech czars.”
As a left of center Dem, I dislike right wing radio and TV, but I uphold the right for them to say it. I don’t think Rush’s show nor Coulter shouldn’t be allowed to voice their opinions. Liberal talk radio didn’t make it.. that’s fair.
But it doesn’t mean the incendiary rhetoric coming out from right wing radio and TV cannot be judged.
126 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:15 am
Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:09 am
“Health care reform “is really hard” and no” silver bullets”. WOW! What a deep thinker Obama is. Such wisdom and eloquence. He is a master at stating the problem when the teleprompter is on. Not so great in providing workable solutions.”
………Sounds like he’s stating the obvious to me……. on a public platform…..not in a meeting with policy wonks at the white house…..switched the value-judgement-ometer off this morning have we?
127 anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:16 am
sorry for the duplicate, i hit it twice unknowingly.
128 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:18 am
Otto
I stated the same about Palin’s comment. Frum goes on about Rush too much. He gives Rush more credit than he deserves. The system is not totally dysfunctional. I love the way other countries who benefit from all the pharamaceuticals and medical techniques developed in the US (because of the PROFIT MOTIVE) are so eager to advocate that we adopt their systems. The reason Canada is able to provide cheap drugs to its citizens is because the high R&D costs are paid by Americans. The reason Canada is able to cut their waiting lists for cancer treatments is because they can send their patients to America for treatment. What are they going to do once their safety valved is sealed? Same with Europe who is so proud of its generous welfare systems and frown upon the uncompassionate Americans. Without the USA paying for their defense and security during the Cold War, they would not have been able to afford a darn thing.
129 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:22 am
Otto
Seriously, now. Don’t you think it would have been better for Obama to first craft a bill and then take to the road to sell it? All he is doing out there is stating the problem or going after Palin’s “death panel” accusation. I don’t see this as constructive as far as addressing the legitimate problems with health care.
130 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:25 am
a few have characterised it this way but it’s not the majority view
Clyburn is out there making the accusation. He is hardly inconsequential.
131 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:26 am
cwillia11 // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:08 am
” There are certainly fascist elements to Obama’s domestic policies ”
“Indirect government control over large corporations,”
……….So who first took this indirect control of banks, AIG, the auto companies?
“the expansion of the government sector into intimate areas of private life”
………Like passing Schiavo bills you mean?
“abortion and general disregard for the right to life”
……….you mean like supporting the law of land in these matters
“demonization of his opponents,”
……..yes he constantly goes around calling Boehner Hitler, Palin a racist, claims Michelle Bachmann wants to set up internment camps….sure
……….One could go on…..amazing what some have convinced themselves off….funny really
132 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:29 am
Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:25 am
“a few have characterised it this way but it’s not the majority view
Clyburn is out there making the accusation. He is hardly inconsequential”
……..Yes he’s got a really big voice……go out in the street and ask 100 people if they know who these three people are…..sarah palin, rush limbaugh, james clyburn……..you’ll have to do better than this Chek
133 trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:32 am
My my Otto, you do seem a little obsessed and disoriented. Is your real name Rahm Emmanuel?
134 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:33 am
you and others think this and hyperbolic language promotes your cause…… David doesn’t in fact as he points out it’s fraught with danger
Check out my comments regarding the Palin “death panels”. I thought it was stupid and counterproductive. Like I said, I have been banned from another right wing website because of my speaking out against the Palin’s brand of politics and saying that Bachmann was nutty. I think the hyperbolic language doesn not help my cause. I believe we have a better approach to problem than the Left’s government is the solution to all approach. I think Obama made my case when he brought up the US Post Office vs. Fedex/UPS.
Anyway. Busy day gotta go. Good day everyone!
135 Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:36 am
Sinz
Before I forget:
Focus on the Family drops ex-gay program, faces budget shortfall
Looks like Dobson is running out of money. Could it be that his days as GOP mover and shaker are OVER? Yay!!!!!
Sorry for the OT but there is no open forum here at NM.
136 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:41 am
Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:22 am
“Seriously, now. Don’t you think it would have been better for Obama to first craft a bill and then take to the road to sell it?”
……..Seriously Chek you do oscillate between the real and unreal……Of course he could have written a bill……it would have been damned easy……he’s got the entire national brains trust on the issue headed by Orzag working on it…….he chose for what I suspect were two reasons (the Clinton experience and something called “not invented here”) to let the congress do it…… less tidy but but much more strategically sound in the long run……from watching him up there in CS it’s obvious he’s a master of the issue…….Can you imagine Bush doing this…….there’s no doubt in my mind he’s going to pass a bill and it will look fairly like one he might have written in the first place……you will persist in under rating this guy when it’s obvious he’s someone of very considerable stature…….who would you want to run your family corp0ration……Bush, Palin or this guy
137 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:47 am
The GOP is not over but hopefully the religious right is over. The GOP should on principle oppose government intrusion on the rights of individuals and the Democrats can stand up for the infringement.
Otto the point about journalists is that if one is to point to a general bias (not particular statements) one could conclude that it is likely that if one votes left one would promote left causes.
138 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:49 am
trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:32 am
“My my Otto, you do seem a little obsessed and disoriented. Is your real name Rahm Emmanuel?”
………..Where you guys ALWAYS end up………..the ad homs……..actually I feel rather more like Errol Flynn who takes on lots of opponents in those sword fights…….you are definitely not Basil Rathbone however……more like the obscure Norman spear carrier who gets it early in the action
139 anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:51 am
ottovbvs: you nailed it.
Republicans make two errors….underestimating President Barack Obama, and underestimating how the incendiary rhetoric that now defines the Repubican party & how it will affect on the pysches of the ordinary working class American outside their party – and how it will cause a major backlash.
Americans are sick of the Rovian culture wars, and what we are still seeing is the same, old from the GOP. Republicans of any stature outside the talking TV and ‘Dittoheads’ are not talking about the issue of healthcare reform, offering constructive ideas how to implement it – they are trying desperately to grind it into the ground, and bury it.
140 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:54 am
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:47 am
“Otto the point about journalists is that if one is to point to a general bias (not particular statements) one could conclude that it is likely that if one votes left one would promote left causes.”
……One could also conclude that they bend over backwards and maybe favor the right to avoid the appearance of bias…….it’s hardly conclusive one way or the other……in any case it’s not what’s being talked about which is counter productive hysterical talk on the right which is an entirely different subject
141 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:59 am
So called Conservatives like David Frum do so much harm to the Republican party and to the Conservative movement. In fact, they do much more harm than any group on the left than any Liberal politician.
David Frum and his ilk are used by the Liberal media, by Democrats, by Liberal groups to prove how bad the Republican party and Conservatives are. Sadly, David Frum and his ilk are happy to oblige.
This fake outrage by the likes of Frum and the left regarding Obama-Hitler comparisons is incredibly pathetic. I know it has been said by quite a few posters on this forum, but I think it needs to be repeated.
For 8 years all we heard is comparisons of Bush to Hitler. For 8 years, all we heard was comparisons of Conservatives to Nazis. Where were you Mr. Frum during the past 8 years? Where are you articles written against the left like you have written this one against the right for comparing a President to Hitler?
Some have claimed that Bush’s comparisons to Hitler were done by a small group of Liberals who did not gardener any attention from the media, of course since they were so small. This is a huge lie!
The very well politically connected and influential left wing group, Moveon.org, was right in the thick of things comparing Bush to Hitler. Moveon.org is very main stream amongst Liberal politicians and voters. Mr. David Frum, where is your scathing piece against Moveon.org for picking as a winner a video that depicted Bush as Hitler?
Do I believe is right to compare any President of the USA, right or left, to Hitler? Of course not. My problem with Frum and his ilk is their obvious hypocrisy and their new found outrage against people who compare a President to Hitler.
Where was Frum when Senator Dick Durbin compared the American military men and women to Nazi SS and to those that ran the Soviet Union gulags? Where is your scathing piece against Senator Durbin, Mr. David Frum?
I find it amusing that today the media, the left and RINOs like Frum are all in a tizzy and all riled up because of the town hall meetings. Hmmmm…funny, during the 8 years of Bush’s Presidency all we heard was that protesting was patriotic, that not standing by your President was patriotic. Town Hall meetings carried out by Republican Senators and Congressmen were constantly interrupted by left wing hecklers, who were infenetly worst than anything you have seen the right do at todays town hall meetings. There is even a great video, which can be easily found in Youtube, of Ms. Nancy Pelosi congratulating left wing protesters at a town hall meeting she held. She went on a rant on how protesting was good, it was right, moral, just, patriotic, etc. Oh what a difference a President makes, eh?
I live in Chicago and I will never forget when fringe groups closed down Lake Shore Drive. They walked onto Lake Shore Drive marching against the Iraq War. It wasn’t one or two people, it was thousands of them. They were carrying signs calling for the murder of Bush, doctored pictures of Bush with a Hitler like mustache. They were carrying pro-Communist signs. They showed Bush with blood coming from his neck. They had signs that said, “Republican Party=Nazi Party”. And it wasn’t two or three signs, it was easily hundreds, upon hundreds of signs.
Where is your scathing piece against these radical left wingers, Mr. Frum? Can you link me to it? Hypocrite.
David, individuals like you are the great tools of the left. They use and abuse you to destroy the right and either you are a blind tool that is clueless that he is being used to destroy everything he believes in or you are doing it on purpose. Either way, you are an useful tool of the left.
142 trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:05 pm
ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:49 am
And so clever with your ripostes! A league of your own.
143 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Chekote // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:18 am
“The system is not totally dysfunctional. I love the way other countries who benefit from all the pharamaceuticals and medical techniques developed in the US (because of the PROFIT MOTIVE) are so eager to advocate that we adopt their systems.
………Yes I did somewhat overstate it there…..sorry,bad choice of words……in many ways it’s very good but it’s also massively inefficient, way too expensive and will ultimately collapse under it’s own weight………you don’t seem to understand that two of the six largest pharmaceutical companies in the world are ……European!…..Glaxo Smith Kline and Astra Zeneca……the Europeans have just cut a better deal with the drug companies which are enormously profitable (I know becasue I have a lot of stock in them) while over here they are shielded by their stooges in congress….get real Chek
144 moyeti // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:09 pm
So you sent a lefty goon out to a town hall meeting and he saw what he wanted to see. Did he investigate anything else? Did he find out the nazi posters were held by union thugs? No. He had an assignment and he came back w/ the information you sent him to support.
Look Frum, if it quacks it is a duck. If the policies outlined by the politician are socialistic, fascist, or comunist then they just are. Now get out there and report the truth regardless of the people in power or you and me will be staring down the end of a gun one day asking for a piece of bread to feed our family, or if they could just turn on the heat a bit early this winter, perhaps, if we pay off the right thug.
Hypocracy starts in the mind and creeps into your soul, and soon anything is possible. Like turning in your neighbor for thinking different, or maybe a friend or family member. STOP THIS INSIDIOUS REPORTING. YOU ARE KILLING OUR DREAMS OF DEMOCRACY FOR ALL.
145 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:10 pm
142 trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:05 pm
“And so clever with your ripostes! A league of your own.”
………..En garde……I grew up on those swashbucklers…….still love the Seahawk
146 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:11 pm
There is nothing wrong with the other side underestimating you, that is what you want. When I hear Democrats complain about that I become skeptical of the claims of the poster.
There is no constructive ideas in the destruction of freedom but… keeping pushing the state power over peoples lives.
This “reform” will lead to total government control of health care that is the only goal of the Democratic party. They only favor state power over the lives of the ordinary person.
147 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:16 pm
anniemargret // Aug 15, 2009 at 12:06 pm
“No question some liberals used this awful analogy with Bush. But the preponderance of hate directed at President Obama, 8 months in office, is off the wall. We are talking about a much needed healthcare reform, not anti-war sentiment. We are seeing ‘death to Obama’ signs and ‘overthrow’ of government, and right wing talking heads who are fueling this sentiment everyday, in which way. No comparison.”
——-”No question some Liberals used this awful analogy with Bush”? hahaha! Some? I guess you call the very well Liberal funded Moveon.org, some, eh? No, it was a daily thing and it wasn’t some on the left.
“Prepondarance of hate directed at Obama, 8 months in office, is off the wall”
hahaha!! I guess you were sleeping when the hate, vitrol, and disgusting attacks against Bush were being thrown out by the left BEFORE he even took office. These, of course, continued and became much worse as time went on.
“We are seeing death to Obama signs and overthrow of government government, and right wing talking heads who are fueling this sentiment everyday, in which way. No comparison”
Hahaha!! no comparison? I guess you missed it when Rhandi Rhodes, during her talk show on AirAmerica, used a gun shot sound to pretend that she was murdering President Bush, eh? I guess you missed all of those signs at left wing protests where you had “Death to Bush Signs”, “overthrow the government signs”, eh?
I guess you missed it when left wing groups would get on stage when Rove, Rumsfeld, etc would be speaking and they would attempt what they thought was a citizens arrest, eh?
I guess you mised the yelling by left wingers during 9/11 hearings, eh?
Question, do you live in a box? are you poorly informed? or are you serious? WOW! ———————-
“The worst, worst, in my opinion, are not the self-serving Limbaugh and Coulters and Palins, but the Republicans in elected office who are milky, wimpy and not brave enough to say ‘enough!” or worse….supporting the hate-talk and the hyperbole in stoking fear.”
You mean like when Senator Dick Durbin got on the Senate floor and compared the American military men and women to Nazi SS and to KGB agents who ran the Soviet gulags?
Where was the left wing outrage? where were Reid, Obama, Pelosi, Kennedy, etc condeming Durbin’s hateful, digusting words?
Where were the left wing politicians when Moveon.org picked as a winner a video which compared Bush to Hitler? where?
your new found outrage, and obviously fake, is pathetic.
“And this kindergartenish ‘they started it first’ mantra has to end. If it is wrong then, and it is even more wrong now, because all the signs are now pointing to some real violence ahead. The hatred is coming out of the woodwork.”
——–’they started it first’? You have to “love” the left. For 8 years they stoked hate against Bush, Republicans, Conservatives. Now that we are fed up with it and fighting back and fighting fire with fire…now the outrage comes out. Before, the left was silent and did not care about Bush-Hitler comparisons. During Bush the left saw signs calling for the murder of Bush and all you heard from the left was, “It is their right to protest! They have freedom of speech!” Funny what a difference a President makes.
The left loves freedom of speech and the righ to protest, as long as they do not go against Liberals and Liberal ideology.
All the signs are pointing to some real violence? I guess you missed the movie which left wingers flocked to see, in which President Bush was assasinated. Violence? I guess you missed the left wing anarchist, the left wing protesters who defaced the Capitol when they marched and who throw bottles, etc at Right wing groups, eh?
violence, sorry kid, I guess you have never attended a left wing protest. —————————
148 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:17 pm
In Canada it is against the law to buy any private health care. ( as outlined in the Canada Health Act) The supreme court of Canada ruled against this but it still has not reformed the system after 2 years and it may never. Why would they want to give up that power over the lives of voters?
149 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:20 pm
cj75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:59 am
…….David you’re a democratic stooge…..got it?
“I live in Chicago and I will never forget when fringe groups closed down Lake Shore Drive. They walked onto Lake Shore Drive marching against the Iraq War. It wasn’t one or two people, it was thousands of them.”
……..Actually hundreds of thousands…….probably close to a million in NYC…..hundreds of thousands in other cities across America and the world for that matter……a million in London alone……..I’m afraid you don’t seem to perceive the difference between a few fools rounded up by political interest groups to create scenes at townhall and genuine mass, and usually peaceful, protests against govt policy
150 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:23 pm
The numbers game is also a logical fallacy.
151 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:31 pm
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:23 pm
“The numbers game is also a logical fallacy.”
…………very profound……it’s also a rough guide to public sentiment and the strength of that sentiment……a million turn out in NYC against a war suggests somewhat stronger public sentiment than 150 shouting at Ben Cardin about healthcare or whatever they were shouting about
152 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:31 pm
It’s fun to beat up on the Postal Service, but think for a moment what they do. For less than $.50 you can with virtual certainty drop a small scrap of paper into a box along with billions of others and expect it will arrive at its destination in under three days.
Yes we face crowded post offices and occasional failures.
But perhaps that is due to our unwillingness to pay fair value for what it actual cost to deliver that letter which is what right now $.47? Last I checked FedEx was just under $20 to accomplish the same thing for a slightly larger envelope.
Other countries have postal rates two, three and four times ours.
Stop whining.
153 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Otto
Actually you did mention ad hominem as a fallacy so I was merely pointing into the general direction of reasoning correctly. Sound arguments are not determined by numbers on either side. It is true that the left is able to demonstrate with numbers just not reason.
154 trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:50 pm
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:37 pm
He’s very good at recognizing ad hominen in others, inappropriately, but misses his own. Funny that. Could he be paranoid?
155 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:50 pm
cj75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:59 am
…….David you’re a democratic stooge…..got it?
“I live in Chicago and I will never forget when fringe groups closed down Lake Shore Drive. They walked onto Lake Shore Drive marching against the Iraq War. It wasn’t one or two people, it was thousands of them.”
……..Actually hundreds of thousands…….probably close to a million in NYC…..hundreds of thousands in other cities across America and the world for that matter……a million in London alone……..I’m afraid you don’t seem to perceive the difference between a few fools rounded up by political interest groups to create scenes at townhall and genuine mass, and usually peaceful, protests against govt policy
——————————————————————————————————————————–
I like your, “usually peaceful protests” hahaha!!! Do you think that millions of people can’t be stoogest of politicians? Eh…David Frum might not like it, but I will use it. Did you study history? Nazi Germany people?
do you think that people that attended were not pushed to do so by political left wing groups? hahaha!!!
it is well known that the left has always been much better at organizing mass protests than the right. We work, raise children and are incredibly busy.
My point, however, which you chose to ignore, is that during these marches against the Iraq War were in some cities millions marched, there were millions of anti-Bush signs comparing him to Hitler. calling for the murder of Bush. Comparing Conservatives and right wingers to Nazis and Hitler.
and let us get your point across…
If you march or protest against left wing government policies, you are a stooge and a fool.
but if you march and protest against right wing government policies, it is genuine and no one asked you to go.
hey fool, how did the left wingers find out about the anti-war protests and marches, eh? by Astroturfing!
but we all know, the left can do it, but if the right does exactly the same thing, the left will claim that the right is wrong.
and yes, Mr. Frum IS a Left wing stooge.
156 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:52 pm
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Otto
“Actually you did mention ad hominem as a fallacy”
…….Did I ?……ad hominem?…….where?……in what context?……of course numbers aren’t in and of themselves determinative…….until about 1450 most people thought the world was flat….they were wrong of course…….you clearly attach a lot more significance to these Renta Mobs than they possess….I was also massively amused by the total lack of self awareness implicit in cj75’s self contradiction viz.
“I will never forget when fringe groups closed down Lake Shore Drive. ……. It wasn’t one or two people, it was thousands of them.”
…….not that cj75 strikes me as someone really of this world
157 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:56 pm
ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:31 pm
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:23 pm
“The numbers game is also a logical fallacy.”
…………very profound……it’s also a rough guide to public sentiment and the strength of that sentiment……a million turn out in NYC against a war suggests somewhat stronger public sentiment than 150 shouting at Ben Cardin about healthcare or whatever they were shouting about
——————————————————————————————————————————-
1) I challange your numbers. That is what left wing kook groups claim attended. The police claim that the numbers were much smaller.
2) If you want to see incredible amount of large people protesting against left wing government policies, go to Washington DC on the Roe vs. Wade anniversary. You will see millions of pro-lifers marching against abortion and the Roe vs. Wade decision, but since the American media ignores this incredibly huge protest, you don’t even know about it.
3) I would point out to the recent polls numbers of Democrats, Obama and the Democrats healthcare bills. All three have lost, very rapidly, support. All below 50%. So, you might not see the mass marches, but the strong public anger against Obama’s ridiculous healthcare bill is there.
4) Numbers doesn’t equal being right, being correct. I am sure abortionist will say this about the millions who march against abortion every year in January. As I said, Nazi Germany was supported by millions of Germans. Were they right? your number games and “logic” is….hmmmmm….small minded and simple minded.
158 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:56 pm
155 cj75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:50 pm
……..Q.E.D.
159 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:58 pm
157cj75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:56 pm
……Q.E.D. secundus
160 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:03 pm
ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:52 pm
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Otto
“Actually you did mention ad hominem as a fallacy”
…….Did I ?……ad hominem?…….where?……in what context?……of course numbers aren’t in and of themselves determinative…….until about 1450 most people thought the world was flat….they were wrong of course…….you clearly attach a lot more significance to these Renta Mobs than they possess….I was also massively amused by the total lack of self awareness implicit in cj75’s self contradiction viz.
“I will never forget when fringe groups closed down Lake Shore Drive. ……. It wasn’t one or two people, it was thousands of them.”
…….not that cj75 strikes me as someone really of this world
=========================================================================
Otto,
you are truly missing the point here.
The point is that for 8 years, as you have admitted, not thousands, but millions wanted Bush’s death, compared Bush to Hilter. Republicans and Conservatives to Nazis and Hitler.
I was at the Chicago demonstration and the hateful, disgusting, death to America, death to Bush, etc signs that were around were not just a few, they also numbered in the thousands.
I find it amusing that any Liberal today would complain about protests against Obama, when their hate for Bush was 100x worst than anything you find against Obama.
And as I have always known, Conservatives are too busy working and raising a family to go to mass protests. We have to make up for the lost productivity that is caused by the laziness and disapperance of left wingers.
Anyway, you go right ahead and keep on claiming that the left was more passionte or right or whatever because millions marched. So, the freaking, what!
Numbers doesn’t not equal being morally correct. I know, I know, this is a very hard fact to grasp for an easily led left wing tool.
161 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:05 pm
ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:58 pm
157cj75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:56 pm
……Q.E.D. secundus
======================================================================
Q.E.D.? eh?
Is this how you debate when you know you have lost the argument? Typical Liberal.
162 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:05 pm
trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:50 pm
“He’s very good at recognizing ad hominen in others, inappropriately, but misses his own. Funny that. Could he be paranoid?”
………..No…..I just prefer the rapier to the bludgeon……. your weapon of choice……..as I said earlier… ad homs…. where the bludgeons of the world alway gravitate to when they’re losing the argument
163 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:08 pm
cj75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:05 pm
” Is this how you debate when you know you have lost the argument? Typical Liberal.”
……….I prefer to let the “winners” speak for themselves……I don’t want to get in the way of their arguments
164 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Otto,
are you crying about ad hominen attacks? hmmmm….you just finished calling the town hall people who are against healthcare, stooges and fools.
Stop crying about ad hominen attacks when you have ZERO problem using them against those that you disagree.
165 midcon // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:09 pm
ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:55 am midcon …..as ever you try to make this an equal opportunity activity when in fact it’s not …..Why?…. because there’s a quantitive difference between a blogger on Kos ranting about Bush as Hitler and Limbaugh or Coulter doing it because they have a bigger megaphone”
Without getting into a comparative quantitative and qualitative analysis there many examples of what I was referring to – From the baby killer protests against the troops during Vietnam to the Code Pink tactics of today. My larger point is that there are those conceive and employ such strategies primarily to manipulate the sheep. What is equal is the willingness of both sides to employ these strategies and opportunities. Now if you are keeping performance measures on who does more or better. I’ll leave it to you to do a tally.
166 KevMcNJ // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Pot meet Kettle. I had the misfortune of living in Seattle for two years during GWBs 2nd term.
The bumper stickers and graffitti I saw out there on a daily basis about Bush/Cheney was appalling.
Nazi was a recurring theme from 2001-2009 when the POTUS was mentioned in The Peoples Republic of Western Washington. I once even a saw sticker calling for the execution of VP Cheney. You hated the last President… I get it. But dont get get all insulted when people who hate this President (yes I hate him) say bad things about this President after 8 yrs of saying hateful things about the last one.
Man up or shut up.
167 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:14 pm
ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:08 pm
cj75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:05 pm
” Is this how you debate when you know you have lost the argument? Typical Liberal.”
……….I prefer to let the “winners” speak for themselves……I don’t want to get in the way of their arguments
=====================================================================
so, you can’t point out where I am wrong with my argument and facts. I agree, better for you to take a seat on the side line and get an education.
You came in here with some numbers logic that only makes sense to you.
in fact, you are parroting the left wing talking points and you believe yourself to be some great thinker, when all you are is a stooge of the left.
Believe me, your numbers game, and your arguments so far have all been parroted by Olberman, Maddow, Air America, New Yor Times, etc, etc. You are dutifully spewing what so many on the left have been saying.
but go ahead, keep on believing that these protests and the sentiment against the healthcare reform is only by a few, stooges and fools who were organized by a right wing group. When Liberal politicians loose control of Congress in 2010, your jaw will drop.
168 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:18 pm
cj75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Otto,
“are you crying about ad hominen attacks? hmmmm….you just finished calling the town hall people who are against healthcare, stooges and fools.”
……….I think said they were making fools of themselves and behaving like jackasses I believe as in indeed they were…..but then I think the people who called Bush a Nazi were doing the same……..different times different places just as this is different place……I can the ability to differentiate isn’t high on your list of talents
169 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:20 pm
The problem with Otto and his ilk is that they believe that they have the freedom of speech and freedom to assemble against Right wing policy, but they do not believe that Right wingers have the right to protest and march against left wing protests.
I will say one thing, the problem with todays media and the left, is that they have never seen the Right in America take up arms as the left so frequently does. If you are in politics, it is a well known fact that the left is much, much, I mean way better at organizing protests than the Right. The only very good protest that the Right does, which is attended by millions, is the Pro-Life March which occurs every January during the anniversary of Roe vs. Wade. Other than that, Right wingers are very poor at organizing mass protests.
The healthcare debate has ignited a fire in the belly of Republicans, Libetarians and even Blue Dog Democrats. The left is shocked and taken by surprised by this. Never have they seen the Right take up arms like this.
Thus, like Otto, they dismiss it at their own peril, calling the protesters fools and stooges (of course becareful if you call left wing protests fools and stooges-are these left wingers really blind to their hypocrisy).
If this sentiments continue into the 2010 election, Democrats and Liberals are looking at huge, huge losses.
170 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:25 pm
midcon // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:09 pm
“My larger point is that there are those conceive and employ such strategies primarily to manipulate the sheep.”
…….Of course…..you seem to be complaining about the political process……..there were apparently many more sheep opposed to the Iraq war than to healthcare reform……and I’m not keeping tally just pointing to a rather humorous self contradiction by a obviously well balanced and objective poster whose opinions like those of Baarking are assuming kudzu like proportions…..in any case I’m sure by now Frum is by the pool which is where I’m headed…..have fun
171 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:26 pm
ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 12:20 pm
……..Actually hundreds of thousands…….probably close to a million in NYC…..hundreds of thousands in other cities across America and the world for that matter……a million in London alone……..I’m afraid you don’t seem to perceive the difference between a few fools rounded up by political interest groups to create scenes at townhall and genuine mass, and usually peaceful, protests against govt policy
====Now you claim=====
ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:18 pm
……….I think said they were making fools of themselves and behaving like jackasses I believe as in indeed they were…..but then I think the people who called Bush a Nazi were doing the same……..different times different places just as this is different place……I can the ability to differentiate isn’t high on your list of talents
—————————————————————————————————————————–
No Otto, you called them fools, you used an ad hominen attack on people you disagree and you further claimed that these “fools” were organized by political groups. ( I guess left wing political groups didn’t organize the anti-war Marches, eh? do you think the latter were spontenous? wow!)
anyway, your lie and obvious hypocrisy is truly pathetic
You called the people you disagree with fools, an ad hominen attack. Now you are crying about ad hominen attacks thrown at you.
I love it when Liberals can’t even get their own words correct.
why the lies and hypocrisy, Otto?
172 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:32 pm
ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:25 pm
midcon // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:09 pm
“My larger point is that there are those conceive and employ such strategies primarily to manipulate the sheep.”
…….Of course…..you seem to be complaining about the political process……..there were apparently many more sheep opposed to the Iraq war than to healthcare reform……and I’m not keeping tally just pointing to a rather humorous self contradiction by a obviously well balanced and objective poster whose opinions like those of Baarking are assuming kudzu like proportions…..in any case I’m sure by now Frum is by the pool which is where I’m headed…..have fun
=====================================================================
Self contradicting? eh? wow…
hmmm…you are the one claiming that the anti-war, anti-Bush protests were more genuine because of the huge numbers. You brought up the number game, I did not, son.
If anything, I used your “logic” and said that if you want to play the numbers game and claim that millions of people marching make something right, go look at the Pro-Life March which takes place annually in Washington DC. If we use your “logic”, Pro-lifers are morally right because millions march in this annual protest, get it yet? I doubt it. It is YOU who is contradicting himself with this stupid numbers game you decided to start playing.
however, I am still waiting for an explanation on your lie and hypocrisy regarding ad hominen attacks.
173 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:36 pm
No, we believe shouting down people at public meetings is wrong and counterproductive. The ritual of a couple of Code Pink yellers being hauled out at the start of hearings is not the same as a coordinated, calculated attempt to completely stop debate.
By all means please take up arms. I am sure the sight of more Right-wingers showing up strapped will do wonders to advance your cause.
It isn’t me you need to convince, because you won’t…ever. Your teaming, screaming conservative rabble make up 49% of the electorate at best and we have our %49, many of whom are Yellow Dog voters like myself.
Turn up the noise full blast with your death camps, death panels, fascist Obama rhetoric, and armed militias please. I wholeheartedly encourage you to. Then watch the %2 swing vote continue to side with Democrats who find you wacked out already.
You have Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, we have Obama.
I’ll take that equation any day of the week.
BTW, how’s old Glen doing these days? I hear he’s bleeding advertisers like a hemophiliac. But I am sure there are plenty of gold coin hawkers and get rich schemers to take their place. See that, that’s the money Glen could be receiving from Geico, if he weren’t a raving lunatic.
This is a %2 country, whoever wins the swing voters wins the debate.
174 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:46 pm
rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:36 pm
No, we believe shouting down people at public meetings is wrong and counterproductive. The ritual of a couple of Code Pink yellers being hauled out at the start of hearings is not the same as a coordinated, calculated attempt to completely stop debate.
======================================================================
hahahaha!!! you liberals do love to re-write history. Of course, you are a left wing tool, stooge.
A few Code Pink disrupters versus mean old Conservatives organizing and coordinated attempts to stop debate? hahaha!! evil Conservatives, evil! hahaha
Hmmmm….so, I take it you believe that during Bush’s 8 years left wing groups never coordinated and organized to stop debate on Right wing policies, eh? Think SOCIAL SECURITY debate! little one. Not that you can think, of course. The anti-war movement. If you truly believe that it is a few left wingers that tried to stop debate during the Bush years, you are beyond help, little one.
and silly you, for having Obama on your side, the man and his healthcare policy have lost complete steam!! It looks like Glen and Palin have won the argument. Even Democrat Congressmen and Senators are signaling that they will do away with the public option of the bill.
Hey, by all means, take Obama in your equation. It already looks like 2010 will be a Republican land slide.
All we need is Obama is to keep on speaking the truth, government run programs like the US postal service are full of problems, not the private sector like UPS and FedEX. hahaha!!! Obama agrees with Conservatives! Not that you are Obama are smart enough to realize that his words helped the Conservative cause.
thanks for playing…please being someone with some level of intelligence to defend your side.
175 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I’m not sure intelligence is something your side has going for it:
176 JM Hanes // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:51 pm
““Twenty minutes into my two-hour wait to get a seat at Senator Ben Cardin’s town hall event, I started keeping a ‘Nazi tally’ by counting references I overheard to Adolf Hitler, Germany, or the Nazi Party.”
Funny, but your “reporter” somehow never got around to “reporting” the actual results of that count.
He managed to be much clearer, however, about his sneering contempt for rednecks, whom he apparently believes should be in re-education camps instead of turning out for town hall meetings. Was Mr. Knepper even a Cardin constituent? If not, what was he doing at the microphone? If he does, indeed, live in Cardin’s district, why did he have to be “sent” to the meeting in the first place?
Knepper’s description of you, Mr. Frum, as a “let’s-discuss-philosophy conservative” may have been his most inadvertently telling observation. Those “angry, ready-to-roll conservatives” you’d like to heave overboard have done a lot more to shift the healthcare dynamics than your putatively rational gnashing of teeth.
177 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:54 pm
rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:36 pm
It isn’t me you need to convince, because you won’t…ever.
======================================================================
HA! I “love” how open minded Liberals like rbottoms are.
and then you claim that it is Conservatives who are not willing to listen and who do not want to debate.
Your closed minded attitude is the problem with today’s Liberals. They love to claim they are open minded individuals. They preach that all points must be debated and listened to. Yet in their personal life and actions, they are neither opened minded or willing to listen to debate.
the sad part is that rbottom is too blinded by her hate of right-wingers to realize that she is being a hypocrite and a liar.
178 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Why do you assume re-education camps must necessarily follow sneering contempt?
We’re not laughing with you, we’re laughing at you:
“Keep government’s hand off my Medicare.”
~ Grumpy, delusional old man
179 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:57 pm
What me worry? Say it to your self. Both the House and the Senate (with 60) and the President from the same party and you guys worry about protests. What are the ideas in Health care? Right more control…cost control and that means…to ration maybe?
Of course let us examine the models in the world take Canada even the courts there have ruled against the type of health delivery system because it violates basic human freedom.
180 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:58 pm
rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I’m not sure intelligence is something your side has going for it:
======================================================================
you really do not want me to start pulling up polls of what Democrats and Liberals around the country believe and know or shoudl I say…don’t know.
not to mention, you don’t want to start putting up the left wing birthers who went after John McCain because he was born in the Panama Canal to American parents.
181 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:04 pm
rbottom,
I guess you missed it when your President defended the public option in healthcare when he said that the private sector doesn’t have problems, FedEx and UPS are doing fine, it is the U.S. Postale service which is full of problems.
I rather have an old man get it wrong about Medicare than the President of the USA defend the public option in healthcare by saying that government run programs, like the USA postal service, are a complete disaster which are riddled with problems.
this is how your President defended the public option in his healthcare plan.
The saddest part is that the Obamabots applauded this fool and didn’t even realize that the “most intelligent” President, evah….had just pissed all over the public option. Clueless Liberals.
182 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:04 pm
I don’t hate you. I just think believing in a 4,000 year old earth and fighting to keep the study of evolution out of text books if idiotic, a symbol of how the GOP has pandered to the anti-intellectual fever of conservative voters.
We like actual smart people to run things, not people who start and nearly lose trillion-dollar wars because reality doesn’t comport with their view of the world.
And smart, as in willing to adjust to facts on the ground and not to send people to rebulid a country based on whether they oppose abortion or not.
George Bush to almost destroy the United States military, allowed 35,000+ soldiers to be maimed, 4,000 to be killed before deciding he might be doing something wrong, sometime after declaring ‘Mission Accomplished’.
He took a week to respond to Katrina when the 82nd Airborne could have been dropping in after 12 hours. He presided over an economic slide towards a second Great Depression.
And NOW you’re fired up and ain’t gonna take it no more after eight grueling months of the Obama jihad against America! Yes, of course.
Please bring on the militias and pistol packing patriots, as many as you can muster.
183 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:08 pm
FedEx:
UPS:
Yes, things are just peachy.
184 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:08 pm
If the government controls health care they make life and death decisions as a matter of course. They don’t need “death panels” just a lowly official in an office deciding which procedure should be rationed more or less than another procedure.
185 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:13 pm
There’s a word for that, it’s called Aetna.
186 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Rbottoms you made some valid points about the irrational nature of some parts of the GOP but isn’t Lyndon Larouche a Democrat? Didn’t the Ayers gang come from the Weather underground and ra ra Charlie Manson.
187 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:15 pm
I don’t hate you. I just think believing in a 4,000 year old earth and fighting to keep the study of evolution out of text books if idiotic, a symbol of how the GOP has pandered to the anti-intellectual fever of conservative voters.
We like actual smart people to run things, not people who start and nearly lose trillion-dollar wars because reality doesn’t comport with their view of the world.
And smart, as in willing to adjust to facts on the ground and not to send people to rebulid a country based on whether they oppose abortion or not.
George Bush to almost destroy the United States military, allowed 35,000+ soldiers to be maimed, 4,000 to be killed before deciding he might be doing something wrong, sometime after declaring ‘Mission Accomplished’.
He took a week to respond to Katrina when the 82nd Airborne could have been dropping in after 12 hours. He presided over an economic slide towards a second Great Depression.
And NOW you’re fired up and ain’t gonna take it no more after eight grueling months of the Obama jihad against America! Yes, of course.
Please bring on the militias and pistol packing patriots, as many as you can muster.
======================================================================
hahahaha!!! the Earth 4,000 years old? hahahaha!!! little one, little one. You Liberals do love stereotyping. Eh, the Earth is billions upon billions of years old.
Evolution, Creationism, I could careless. God decided to create the world, how He decided to do this, is his business.
hey, liar…the Coast Guard responded to Katrina immediately! who mobilized it? you do love to spew left wing talking points, eh?
smart? you mean smart like Obama claiming that he had visited 57 States? or smart like claiming that a public option is good by saying that public opition in postal delivery is a disaster. this smart, child?
or maybe you mean smart by Obama claiming that there were dead veterans amongst a crowd that he was speaking to, eh? this smart?
Second Great Depression? are you for real? wow….you do know that during the Carter administration the economy was much, much worst than it was during any time of the Bush administration, right?
it will do you a world of good to stop spewing pathetic left wing talking points.
by the way, you do know that the President of the United States cannot, by law, mobilized american troops inside the USA, right? you do know this, correct?
rbottom, how old are you, 13? basic Civic Class stuff, lady.
The governor of a State can mobilize its National Guard, but the President of the USA cannot mobilize American troops within the USA. I hope you know why. Thus, Governor Blanco, a Democrat woman who started crying on live television during Katrina, was the one that did not mobilize the troops. Bush, mobilize the troops he could, the Coast Guard, who were rescuing Americans immediately after Katrina.
But wow….you just put your foot in your mouth and showed your lack of education. The President mobilize the 82nd into New Orleans? really? wow!! it is AGAINST the LAW!!!! NO President can mobilize troops within the USA!
188 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:17 pm
How does it work in Canada? Surely you know. I mean it must be better there right?
189 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:18 pm
rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:08 pm
FedEx:
“Our financial performance was sharply lower during the quarter due to the global recession,” Chief Executive Fred Smith said in a statement. “While we are gaining market share in all of our transportation segments, the downturn in our industry and the severity and expected duration of the recession require that we take additional actions.”
Analysts said a drop in profit against a backdrop of a sliding economy was to be expected.
“FedEx’s results are not much of a surprise given the current environment,” said Dan Ortwerth, a research analyst at Edward Jones. “But this is a wake-up call for us that things are not going to get better any time soon.”
UPS:
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) – United Parcel Service Inc. said Thursday its second-quarter profit was almost halved as the delivery company shipped fewer packages due to the global economic slowdown.
UPS reported net income of $445 million, or 44 cents a share, compared with net income of $873 million, or 85 cents a share a year ago. On an adjusted basis, earnings per share were 49 cents versus 85 cents a year ago – in line with analyst expectations.
Revenue fell almost 17% to $10.83 billion, below the $11.1 billion analysts had targeted, according to FactSet Research.
UPS, closely watched as a bellwether for economic activity, said its daily package volume in the U.S. fell 4.6% to 12.5 million items shipped. For its international business, volume fell 5.5% to 1.8 million packages.
Brown Out
Yes, things are just peachy.
======================================================================
So, what you are saying is that President Obama, whom you consider smart, eloquent, noble, lied about the state of FedEx and UPS?
hahahaha!!!!
you freaking troll. Do you stop to think before you spew your nonsense?
So, not only did Obama attack the public option by using FedExa and UPS as an example of how the private sector runs things better than the government, HE LIED ABOUT IT!!!
hahaha!! I guess you mean smart like this, eh? hahahaha
190 anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:20 pm
rbottoms: “There’s a word for that, it’s called Aetna.”
Bravo!
191 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:20 pm
And how many elections has he won? What senior leadership or policy posts has he led?
He’s a nut, pure and simple.
And Tojo launched the Japanese against us at Pearl Harbor, also ancient history. Obama was 9 for crissakes. Is the GOP ever going to get over the 60’s?
We’ve won a war and nearly lost two others since then.
Youngsters from the 60’s are grandparents by now, get over it.
192 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:24 pm
rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:20 pm
And Tojo launched the Japanese against us at Pearl Harbor, also ancient history. Obama was 9 for crissakes. Is the GOP ever going to get over the 60’s?
We’ve won a war and nearly lost two others since then.
Youngsters from the 60’s are grandparents by now, get over it.
====================================================================
It would be ancient history if it wasn’t that Obama launched his political career, during the 1990s, at the home of William Ayears in Chicago. Don’t worry, I do not expect yout o know this fact and I do expect you to try to attack this point with left wing radical talking points.
but I do “love” how “smart” your President is. Not only is he “smart” by your own proof, he is also a liar.
rbottom, is your brain working today?
193 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:25 pm
The assets of the 82nd Airborne could have been used to deploy the Guard units you refer to in a matter of hours. There are plenty of Guard who are airborne qualified. I was stationed at Fort Bragg in the 80’s so I know whereof I speak.
194 Bill C // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Well my comment (#13) was finally allowed to appear after a whole day. Any response from the board to my expose’ of Mr. Frum? Or did you miss it as was probably designed. I think it’s a pretty damning indictment of Mr. Frum’s current claims to be some sort of moderate…he’s just a neoconservative ideologue posing as such.
195 CJ75 // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:30 pm
rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:25 pm
The assets of the 82nd Airborne could have been used to deploy the Guard units you refer to in a matter of hours. There are plenty of Guard who are airborne qualified. I was stationed at Fort Bragg in the 80’s so I know whereof I speak.
======================================================================
Oh, here it comes, left winger playing at G.I. Joe. hahaha!!
Hmmmm…..you and I both know that you are wrong. Not to mention, that this is NOT what you said Bush have done in your original post. You went ahead and did a google search and found out that you just had proved yourself to be a poorly educated fool.
No President can move ANY part of the United States Armed forces. Only governors can move the National Guard.
but the Coast Guard which can mobilize immediately, were mobilized. They were rescuing New Orelans immediately!
why the need to lie, my child?
Nice try, G.I. Joe.
but do keep on proving how you like, “smart” Presidents.
196 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Not a GI Joe, just a vet unlike a lot of conservative Chickenhawks like the aforementioned Dick Cheney.
In the aftermath of one of the greatest natural disasters to hit our country Bush could have requested extraordinary measures to respond to the needs of his dying citizens instead of sitting on his thumbs for five days. The aftermath was the shattering of the illusion of Republican competency.
And they couldn’t get to a highly visible geographic location that CNN somehow managed to reach.
Bush’s FEMA director was clueless (great job Brownie) and apparatus of the entire US government couldn’t manage a response to a crisis people were watching in real time on TV. The grandma I think about isn’t one facing the mythical Obama death squads, it’s the woman rotting in her wheelchair in the sun on live television.
197 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:53 pm
BTW, GI Joe these days is closer to S.H.I.E.L.D. than the all American origins you might remember from when you played with
dollsAction Figures.198 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Anyway the point of Frum’s piece isn’t to convince me you aren’t a bunch of whack job loons, I already know you are.
It’s to convince you that you are deluded if you think armed protest at presidential events will win you converts among the 2% of the country which can be persuaded either way.
Round one went to you, round two where Obama reminds people that their health insurance premiums cost a fortune and are jacked up further or coverage dropped should they actually use it. Millions of people, like myself are on COBRA so we know the clock is ticking on our currently outrageous rates which will surely double if we run out the clock.
I don’t know about you, but $1800 a month for coverage is impossible to maintain and since me and my spouse are considered uninsurable outside of mandates like COBRA, you’re are damn right I back Obama 100% as he attempts to fix this mess.
199 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Rb if you want to discuss health care will the monopoly system run by the government be better for individuals? The case of Canada proves it is flawed and morally bankrupt. Even the courts said so.
200 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Rbottoms here are some questions you will not answer with out another insult but you can try.
How many regulations create high prices of the current system do high insurance premiums have any bearing on the cost of malpractice insurance?Have government-mandated coverage requirements caused an explosion in insurance rates? (perhaps government regulation has no cost)
Do state-mandated treatments cause higher fees, including: acupuncture, alcoholism treatment, athletic trainers, breast reduction, contraceptives, dieticians, drug abuse treatment, hair prosthesis, home health care, hormone replacement therapy, in vitro fertilization, marriage therapy, massage therapy, nature treatments, pastoral counseling, Port-stain elimination, professional counseling, smoking cessation, speech therapy and varicose vein removal. It is brilliant to mandate right? Unless a Republican does it.
Do laws that include those that smother competition by prohibiting consumers from crossing state lines to buy insurance contribute to the cost?
201 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Morally bankrupt to provide care for the great majority of your citizens? And yet, they have yet to run the politicians responsible for their system out of town on a rail and replace it with the ‘live if you can pay’ system we have. Why everyone should have to hold bake sales and beg from their freinds to get chemo for your kid if Aetna turns you down.
Ah yes the famous Mxyzptlk case… what the frak are you talking about?
You mean as opposed to the system where I’m paying $950 a month, but only because I have COBRA and the state of California has mandated the insurance company has to cover me instead of doubling or tripling my rate because of pre-existing conditions?
Yeah, what we have now is just fine.
202 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Yes, I truly believe if government got out of the way the insurance companies would be falling over themselves to lower rates and go out of its way to cover the sickest among us.
COBRA only exists because the state created it. Otherwise when you employer based insurance ended here would be nothing but whatever the market would bear.
As currently stands without coercion by the state me and my wife would be virtually uninsurable. You are damn skippy I am for something that makes them offer me insurance, even at just under $1,000 a month. Otherwise we’d be shelling out twice that or more if we could get insurance in the first place.
203 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 4:52 pm
The Supreme Court of Canada ruled that the Quebec government cannot prevent people from paying for private insurance for health-care procedures covered under medicare. You can google go on.
204 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Competition does cause lower prices not a monopoly or oligopoly mandated by your favorite institution.
205 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Wow the greed is you just want others to be forced by the government to obey your wishes. You want to shove socialism down our throats because that is all socialism is: violence. Just try to disobey an order from the government.
206 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:07 pm
that must have something to do with %30 private insurance they have that apparently the Stalinist overlords of Canada have failed to wipe out.
That worked so well when electricity was deregulated. If you want to roll the dice that because nobody doesn’t like Sarah Lee you’ll be able to find it on the shelves at Safeway that’s your right. But I think I’ll stick with the government mandating that coverage be provided to me regardless of pre-existing conditions, because frankly I kinda doubt there’s going to be a mad rush to cover people who are not 22 years old if all the regs were lifted.
A system that allows a company to deny cancer treatment because you failed to report a rash a decade ago is pretty damn evil. More evil than what comrade Obama is going to create.
207 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:09 pm
I’ll type slower so you understand: Medicare is socialized medicine. Social Security is socialized income. Not a single one of the screaming hordes at the recent town meetings would opt to eliminate either program, despite the fact that it conflicts with their obviously views in the abstract.
“Keep the government out of my Medicare dammit!”
208 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Chaoulli v. Quebec (Attorney General) [2005] 1 S.C.R. 791, 2005 SCC 35 was a decision by the Supreme Court of Canada where the Court ruled that the Quebec Health Insurance Act and the Hospital Insurance Act prohibiting private medical insurance in the face of long wait times violated the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms. In a 4 to 3 decision, the Court found the Acts violated Quebeckers’ rights to life and security of person under the Quebec Charter; as such the ruling is only binding in Quebec. Three of the seven judges also found that the laws violated section seven of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The highly controversial nature of this ruling has brought much of the current Canadian public health system into question.
209 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:13 pm
rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 4:49 pm
…….Still at it guys……what a way to spend Sunday afternoon……You’re wasting your time arguing with these guys rb…..particularly folks like cj75 who clearly left planet reality years ago……one essential rule…..only engage those on the right who show a semblance of commonsense and there are some of course……the minute they show signs of unreality ignore them as I’m sure Frum does……just let them rant away…….and relax in the sure knowledge that they are playing the president’s game
210 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:16 pm
In August 2005, delegates to the Canadian Medical Association adopted a motion supporting access to private-sector health services and private medical insurance in circumstances where patients cannot obtain timely access to care through the single-payer system.
Why would that be? Maybe because it is illegal to have private insurance on items that are covered by the government monopoly. Yes you can buy insurance for anything outside the state mandated system.
211 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:16 pm
I write software, so I am always on the computer. These guys are relaxation.
Sorry, have to disagree with you. The lesson of 1994 is to never let a single charge go unanswered, ever. Besides, I’m not talking to them, I am talking to the %2 who need to see they’re nuts.
212 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:17 pm
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:12 pm
” The highly controversial nature of this ruling has brought much of the current Canadian public health system into question”
…….You’re right about the ruling but in de facto terms it hasn’t made a dimes worth of difference to how the Canadian healthcare system functions nor will it…….If Harper want to try to dismantle the Canadian universal system he’s welcome to try but I don’t think it’s going to happen….. do you?
213 gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:20 pm
That would be a provincial issue genius.
214 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Why they’re out there right now by the millions demanding Aetna come save them. They’re tired of begging government bureaucrats for care, they want beg faceless insurance company drones for their cancer treatments and hold bake sales for kids with leukemia just like Americans do.
215 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:25 pm
rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:16 pm
“Sorry, have to disagree with you. The lesson of 1994 is to never let a single charge go unanswered, ever. Besides, I’m not talking to them, I am talking to the %2 who need to see they’re nuts.”
………….I have some sympathy with this view which is one of the reasons I devote some time here to supporting Frum to some degree and puncturing their balloons…….but just as there’s little point in engaging deranged guys pushing supermarket carts in conversations about ballet dancing there’s little point in trying to outshout these folks……….as to your last point take a leaf out of Obama’s book……let them talk……give them all the rope they need
216 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:28 pm
gmood // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:20 pm
“That would be a provincial issue genius.”
…….Instead of going to the default ad hom attack position why just not answer the question……Is the Canadian universal system really going to undergo any substantial change let alone be dismantled?….cut the bs
217 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:29 pm
But I’m not shouting, you’ll only see the occasional caps in my comments. It is their own words that sink them, the delusion that having an armed man protesting Obama while holding a sign that refers to killing in the name of liberty is going to convince the 2% to support them.
218 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:36 pm
rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:29 pm
” But I’m not shouting,”
……it’s a figure of speech old boy
“It is their own words that sink them, ”
………precisely my point…….take Lee Atwater’s advice as Obama has…….when your opponent is committing suicide don’t get in the way…..for some strange reason they think the spectacle of rather disturbed people screaming is attractive rather than repellant…..none of this accords with our normal experience of life but if that’s what they believe I’m not going to bust my butt convincing them otherwise….go ahead guys…..make my day
219 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Just saw Dick Armey railing about the ad MoveOn.org ran comparing Bush to Hitler.
Except. It. Never Happened.
MoveOn ran a video contest, which I entered, called Bush in 30 Seconds about the issue of free speech. They stupidly used a submission system that allowed people to upload videos without prior review.
One guy out of thousands submitted his Bush/Hitler ad. It was immediately taken down.
It was never, ever, ever was run by MoveOn in any forum, in any medium at any time. Ever.
They learned a valuable lesson about what can happen to you if you don’t screen your content, one that any organization left or right should be aware of.
Repeating the chestnut that the organization put their money behind an ad comparing Bush to Hitler is a flat out lie, one that Dick Armey knows is a lie but since it serves his narrative to repeat it, he does.
220 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Never call a black man boy.
221 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:45 pm
222 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:54 pm
rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:44 pm
“Never call a black man boy.”
……I thought I said “old boy” something totally different(don’t know how to import icons but you know what I mean….and take my advice, these people have a screw loose and it’s rather obvious….. and btw outside of the far right Dick Armey has as much cred as Bernie Madoff
223 anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:00 pm
rbottoms: my heart goes out to you. I understand. I understand because one of my three children is without insurance and has a pre-existing condition. I too experienced COBRA for awhile which became so expensive I was forced to drop it if I wanted to eat and pay my mortgage. I don’t who these guys are…….but anyone who has experienced the ‘best healthcare in the world’ knows it is past time for reform.
As I said before, there is only one real debate. Either you appreciate the humanitarian aspect of this issue, or you don’t give a damn about it. And if you don’t give a damn about it, then you better get on your knees and hope the same awful situations which many Americans find themselves in, doesn’t happen to them or to someone they love.
Life has a funny way of balancing the scales. The arrogance displayed here in the face of human suffering is breathtaking.
224 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:07 pm
anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:00 pm
“Life has a funny way of balancing the scales. The arrogance displayed here in the face of human suffering is breathtaking.”
……..It is indeed Annie….you have to wonder who these fools are….don’t they have parents who are on or will be on SS and/or Medicare?……do they think they and those near to them can NEVER be affected by a life threatening disease as my brother in law was with Guillame Barre syndrome?….fortunately he’s a brit and got $1.5million of treatment for zippo…..do they know what their own insurance cap is?…….are they never going to lose insurance from a job loss?……but then as H. L. Mencken said “No one ever went broke underestimating the stupidity of the American public.”
225 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Don’t how to make the smiley face? Most forum software automatically makes this construct into it: : – )
r.b.
226 anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:29 pm
otto: “don’t they have parents who are on or will be on SS and/or Medicare?……do they think they and those near to them can NEVER be affected by a life threatening disease as my brother in law was with Guillame Barre syndrome?”
I guess they don’t Otto. Every person screaming about stopping any reform on healthcare costs in this country must be sitting pretty. Millions in a bank account, perfect health, gold-plated insurance. Or else they must think LIFE doesn’t happen to them, or what was it John Lennon wisely said once? ” ….life happens when you’re busy making other plans.”
227 sinz54 // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:30 pm
ottovbvs sez: “don’t know how to import icons”
You mean emoticons (smileys)? You don’t “import” those. You spell them out with characters, and the Amazing New Majority Parser substitutes the appropriate emoticon. For example, to get a smiley, type a colon followed by a right parenthesis.
“:” followed by “)” gives you
228 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:32 pm
sinz54 // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:30 pm
…..As in “:” “)”
229 anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:33 pm
btw….I had two uncles struck down in the prime of their life by Lou Gehrig’s disease. No warning, out of the blue. Both used their Medicare/Medicaid especially in the late stages where they couldn’t move, nor hardly breathe due to the illness constricting every muscle in their bodies. They were both restaurant owners, very successful for a time, unless one brother got the illness and the other followed suit later. The restaurant was sold at an auction. The family was left with little money afterward.
Things like this sober a person to think it through….at least one would hope so.
230 rbottoms // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:33 pm
And the opposition starts to unravel;
Meanwhile, taking a break from providing similar services in Third World countries Remote Area Medical sets up shop in downtown Los Angeles for a one day event to provide health care to those in need. Thousands showed up, many started lining up at 2am the night before. The majrotiy of those attending were working poor, this with some insurance but without coverage for dental, vision, and other exams.
The White House express dismay that their Death Panelists were not invited to get a jump on euthanizing these people. Rahm Emmanuel had this to say, “G*&%^%%*#!!”.
231 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Didn’t seem to work…..how about
232 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:34 pm
…..Eureka…..Sinz taught me some something
233 ottovbvs // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:43 pm
anniemargret // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:33 pm
……..I think we all know stories like this……..an ace sales guy who used to work for me in CA who was probably earning $200k in the mid 90’s…….he left us and went somewhere else……a few months later he lost his job…….found it tough to get another and then developed some sort of leukaemia……..he and his family lost everything paying for his treatment……anyone who thinks he’s fireproof is truly brain dead……..thinking it through is something these guy never do……they’d rather regurgitate the latest press release from Dick Armey
234 jay price // Aug 16, 2009 at 7:07 pm
When I teach my introductory history courses, and get to the 1930s, I stop and make the students promise never again to 1) compare another leader to Adolph Hitler, 2) compare another war with World War II, and 3) equate another movement with Nazis. BTW, even after the lecture, readings, etc. the students still have trouble distinguishing between a socialist and a fascist. Naziism and socialism are for them interchangeable words that basically mean “any social/economic ideology that I don’t like.”
235 trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:39 pm
“When I teach my introductory history courses, and get to the 1930s, I stop and make the students promise never again to 1) compare another leader to Adolph Hitler, 2) compare another war with World War II, and 3) equate another movement with Nazis. ”
Hey what about Bush and the Republicans?
Brilliant jay-price. Let’s write off a full quarter of the twentieth century as entirely aberrant, nothing like it before and nothing to learn from it to guide the future. Whoops ten or fifteen years only by your definition; the 20s are okay for parallels. And you’re a teacher. I suppose anyone who doesn’t heed your admonition flunks the course.
Wonder if Frum agrees. Wonder if Kershaw and the many other authors who have studied the era would agree.
236 Warren // Aug 16, 2009 at 11:30 pm
New Majority Republicans are like the Soup Nazis. Careful how you speak when you stand in line to receive your Medicare benefits that you were promised (via speeches written by crafty speech writers) by the competing Democrat and Republican New Majority Politicians. Along the way to retirement the baby boom generation was promised by the New Majority Politicians (Bush-Clinton-Bush) that they would faithfully execute the immigration laws. Oops, there are now so many illegal immigrants colonizing America that even the First Aunt is an illegal immigrant. That is OK because most of the illegal immigrants are strong young men working in meat packing plants, building homes or whatever while living on wage slave rates. At least the New Majority Politicians have kept their promises to the New Majority Businessmen who own the wage slave businesses. So, out with the old folks (the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research was given $1.1 billion to plan that) and in with the new folks (most don’t speak English but they are young so their medical cost should be low and they will vote for the people that give them “free stuff”). The Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research can make sure that the old folks don’t get Medicare coverage for the pills that would allow them to make it all the way to the polls (so be careful what you say -or- “No pills for you!”).
237 Greg Tart // Aug 17, 2009 at 2:05 am
Please you have the nerve to write this dribble when your wife writes cutesy crap on the Huffington Post about being mistaken for a hooker at the 1988 Republican convention. Have you seen what passes for objective, progressive dialogue over there. Why don’t you write about how about of venture capitalists get start their won web zine with an idiot like Huffington to spew hate, and smears/ and by the way your wife is not an expert on oil and should not being making any judgments on palins tenure as governor. Palin forced through a transformational tax on oil profits in Alaska.
238 ottovbvs // Aug 17, 2009 at 8:05 am
trajan // Aug 16, 2009 at 9:39 pm
“Let’s write off a full quarter of the twentieth century as entirely aberrant, nothing like it before and nothing to learn from it to guide the future. ”
……..Whatever would Republicans do without 1933-45 as source of preposterous analogies………Saddam Hussein = Hitler………War on terror = WW 2………
Muslims = Islamofascists………Iraqi insurgency = Werewolves 1945…….Hitler+Mussolini = Axis of evil…….Amahdinejad = Hitler…..Osama bin Laden = Hitler……..Obama = Hitler……
Bank bailout = Fascist corporatism……..implicit in all these absurd parallels particularly ones like the containment of terrorism with WW 2 is a devaluing of what happened in those years and a disrespect for the people who fought and died to defeat Germany, Japan and Italy in the most titanic military struggle in history that claimed the lives of 50 million people…….but then a sense of proportion was never was these guy’s strong point
239 snarque // Aug 17, 2009 at 8:57 am
i was taught that a facsist was a political entity that was anti-monarchial and was closely allied with business intrests. people are confusing facsist are it with tyranny or dictatorship does anybody know anything out there?
240 “Listen… Stop Calling me a Crypto-Nazi…” | thelobbyist // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:20 am
[...] Now we are seeing both sides using the old Nazi name-calling with a tenacious fervor. Both sides are invoking the images of a regime none of them know much more about than what they have seen in the movies or read in books (I would likely place my bets on the former). Interestingly enough, nobody dares bring what Nazism entailed; the slaughter of 12 million people. It’s like we don’t have the gonads to actually say what we mean, leaving those in the audience to deduce this on their own. Nazis equal Holocaust. Obama equals a Nazi. Therefore, Obama will lead to the Holocaust. What is the point of invoking the memory of one of the most heinous regimes known to mankind if you are not going to invoke the outcome of that regime and what made them so Notorious? Because your comparison is disingenuous and loathsome; any intellectual nincompoop can call another person a Nazi, and each time that happens, the memory of those who actually knew the Nazis diminishes little by little. David Frum has a decent article which expresses this sentiment at NewMajority. [...]
241 sinz54 // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:22 am
ottovbvs sez: “Sinz taught me some something”
That’s because you finally tried to put one of my ideas into effect. If you weren’t so rigidly ideologically opposed to my other ideas, you might suggest trying out those as well.
242 ottovbvs // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:27 am
snarque // Aug 17, 2009 at 8:57 am
“i was taught that a facsist was a political entity that was anti-monarchial and was closely allied with business intrests.”
……..Not necessarily anti monarchical…….the regimes in the Balkans in the thirties in Monarchist Roumania and Albania were basically fascist……then there’s the case of Spain where Franco who is widely considered a fascist restored the Monarchy……Personally I don’t think Franco was a Fascist, more of a conservative nationalist really…….he just coopted indigenous fascist political movements as allies and took military assistance from fascist regimes
243 sinz54 // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:29 am
anniemargaret sez: “As I said before, there is only one real debate. Either you appreciate the humanitarian aspect of this issue, or you don’t give a damn about it.”
America is NOT having a referendum on humanitarianism.
We’re having a debate about the particular health reform bills now being worked on in Congress.
The statement that “I appreciate humanitarianism, therefore I must support H.R. 3200″ is a non sequitur.
The illogic is roughly equivalent to the statement that “I oppose terrorism, therefore I must support an invasion of Iraq.”
Let’s return to discussing what a realistic, practical, sustainable health reform package should look like.
244 ottovbvs // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:30 am
sinz54 // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:22 am
“That’s because you finally tried to put one of my ideas into effect. ”
……..No problems in the technical area it’s the philosophical that’s the problem?
245 ottovbvs // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:34 am
sinz54 // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:29 am
“anniemargaret sez: “As I said before, there is only one real debate. Either you appreciate the humanitarian aspect of this issue, or you don’t give a damn about it.”
America is NOT having a referendum on humanitarianism.”
………It’s one aspect of the issue so of course this is partially a debate about humanitarism……….just as a debate about abortion is partially about ethics not just medicine and social issues……what was it you were saying about rigid ideas?
246 VietNamVet // Aug 17, 2009 at 11:00 am
“Contra Rush Limbaugh, history’s actual fascists were not primarily known for their anti-smoking policies or generous social welfare programs.”
That is EXACTLY what the National Socialists did! How can you be so ignorant? Have you never opened a history book?
Go back to what you do best, kissing Obama’s ass.
247 abright // Aug 17, 2009 at 11:06 am
Jetison fundamentalism from the GOP. The GOP now represents the shrill and the extreme, the lower class, religious extremists, and the uneducated. This Nazi issue is just one more example of this truth.
I believe that America needs a dynamic dialog between the center right and the center left. That dialog cannot be held with the Republican base.
No matter how sincerely party intellectuals stress core conservative values regarding the proper balance between business and government, the uses of taxation, or the role government should play, these are the issues of the party’s past. No one looking into the party from the ropes stands outside of a big tent. The GOP has become the party of religious right extremism, intolerance, xenophobia, irrationality, fear, and fear mongering.
The party of Left Behind theology is itself being left behind by America. The GOP cannot expand until it jetisons fundamentalism. Wake up.
248 ottovbvs // Aug 17, 2009 at 11:16 am
vietnamvet // Aug 17, 2009 at 11:00 am
“That is EXACTLY what the National Socialists did!”
……….While arguably true in a broad sense (Hitler hated smoking)…..it’s a bit of an oversimplification….I don’t know the Nazis ever mounted concerted national campaigns against smoking and even if they did it wasn’t very successful as a reading of Traudl Junge’s (one of Hitler’s secretaries) memoirs would confirm……..their “social welfare” programs were minimalist, highly selective and exclusionary………they were also riddled with fraud with skimming by party functionaries…….Kershaw and Fest have something to say on this subject
249 Morning Report, August 17: Spiritual Snake Oil, Public Droption, Bushitler=Obamahitler, Mystery MD, Professor Summers, John Edwards’ love child, and the amazing dancing Speaker of the House « Evangelical Gateway // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:00 pm
[...] I’ve been against this from the start, and recently several opinion pieces (see this and this) have appeared along these [...]
250 Hemmingplay // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:00 pm
In response to MFarmer waaaay above….
You said Paul wasn’t justifying the guy packing heat at that rally…
“Well, if Paul had given a speech encouraging followers to pack heat and attend a town hall meeting, you might have a point. However, if you are asking me if leaders are responsible for the actions of everyone who calls themselves a supporter, then, I say — uh…no. If someone walked into an insurance company and killed all the employees, then told the police he is a supporter of Obama, is Obama responsible by default or incitement?”…
All I can say is, “denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.”
Matter of fact, I was watching the tube that day, and the cable dweeb actually got Ron Paul on the phone and interviewed him on the air, just after their interview with the guy. They asked him, is this appropriate, to wear a loaded gun to a Presidential event?
He basically said, “Yeah. It’s not a problem. It was legal for him, and he was just expressing his opinion.”
So, Paul was, in fact, endorsing an act that most who are not on that brand of Kool-Aide see as the act of an extremist philosophy, and which completely negates your apologist arguments.
251 teddyeugenicist // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:10 pm
No one seems to understand this. I have a life, so I have not read all 250+ comments, but this outrage is not just about healthcare, it is about the cumulative effect of Obama’s AND Bush’s policies, and enough is enough. Yes, people call presidents Hitler, big F-ing deal. This is people standing up against PROGRESSIVISM AND ELITISM. Really, that it is Obama is only circumstantial.
252 Hemmingplay // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:10 pm
vietnamvet:
”
“Contra Rush Limbaugh, history’s actual fascists were not primarily known for their anti-smoking policies or generous social welfare programs.”
That is EXACTLY what the National Socialists did! How can you be so ignorant? Have you never opened a history book?
Go back to what you do best, kissing Obama’s ass.
”
“Primarily” is the key word. Look it up.
What the German National Socialists (Nazis) were “primarily” known for was in the 25-point platform announced in 1920:
” Nazism, officially in German as National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), refers to the ideology and practices of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party or NSDAP under Adolf Hitler, and the policies adopted by the dictatorial government of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945.
Nazism is often considered by scholars to be a form of fascism. While it incorporated elements from both left and right-wing politics, the Nazis formed most of their alliances on the right. The Nazis were one of several historical groups that used the term National Socialism to describe themselves, and in the 1920s they became the largest such group. The Nazi Party presented its program in the 25 point National Socialist Program in 1920. Among the key elements of Nazism were anti-parliamentarism, Pan-Germanism, racism, collectivism, eugenics, antisemitism, anti-communism, totalitarianism and opposition to economic liberalism and political liberalism….”
Don’t see anything about smoking in there, but it might have been. I could care less. Focusing on diversions like this just makes you sound stupid.
Oh, and the German Nazis also started a Word War, and murdering millions. That’s got to count in some way for what they’re “primarily” known for. A minor point you may have missed in your zealotry. Stalin and the communist totalitarian state were/was, if anything, much worse in many ways. But that doesn’t take away the points from ol’ Adolf and the boys.
Get a grip, would you?
253 Warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Fascism is named after a symbol from the Roman Empire. There are a variety of scholarly works that have been written about what qualifies as “fascist”. Leftist usually insist that the term “fascist” can’t be applied to them because they are not nationalist. However, Obama is a neo-nationalist. His chosen science advisor is also a neo-nationalist. What “neo-nation” am I talking about? Their neo-nation is the World! Obama told the people of the world that he is a “Citizen of the World”. Neo-Nationalist (Citizens of the World) religiously believe that Americans have produced too much carbon dioxide. Eco-Fascist believe that the Baby Boom generation is too prosperous to deserve the Medicare benefits that the New Majority Politicians (Bush-Clinton-Bush) promised them. The Eco-Fascist (Citizens of the World) have a solution for the Unsustainable Baby Boomers.
http://www.cradlesforcodgers.com/
254 ottovbvs // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:54 pm
warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:29 pm
………..Extreme nationalism is only one strand of fascist belief and arguably a minor one…….Churchill, Joe Chamberlain, Lord Milner, Lord Curzon, Disraeli and both Pitts were all extreme British nationalists but I wouldn’t have said they were fascists anymore than say Clemenceau who was an extreme French nationalist……Fascism of either the mild Italian version or extreme German version is something completely different and much more malign……which is why throwing around the term loosely devalues its unique nastiness
255 jwrosenzweig // Aug 17, 2009 at 1:04 pm
I just want to point out that Trajan badly misrepresented a fact in his comment (#87): either trajan made a nearly inexplicable error, or simply never did what was claimed.
Trajan said: “I just Googled “Hitler Bush” and “Hitler Obama”. Over 8 million hits for the former and about 100,000 for the latter.”
This is a remarkably easy experiment to do yourself–you don’t have to take my word for it, but when I Googled Hitler Bush (not in quotes) I received a little over 7 million hits, and when I Googled Hitler Obama (not in quotes) I received about 6.2 million hits. So, instead of Bush outpacing Obama by 8,000%, as Trajan alleged, Bush leads by perhaps 14-15%.
I’ll agree with Trajan’s later comment that he didn’t think this statistic meant much….but then why did he bring it up so prominently in his comment? Personally, I think if the statistic is indicative of anything, it’s that there is at least something _quantitatively_ different about the reaction to Obama. After all, it took 8 years of presidency for Hitler and Bush to be placed next to each other 7 million times…after 8 months, Obama’s almost caught up. (These figures are more striking if you consider that “Bush” is a relatively common surname–we might be getting our 41st President on a few of these, for example–and that it is also a common noun that could appear innocently in an article that also mentions Hitler, while Obama is an obscure enough name that there can’t be much overlap.)
This still doesn’t prove much. Someone on the far right can still claim (and likely will) that there are more such allegations because Obama acts more like Hitler than Bush did. What can be said against such irrationality? As a liberal who always rejected comparisons of Bush to Hitler as beneath contempt (yes, we do exist, although some of you seem to prefer alleging that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid led us all in “Bush is a Nazi” chants on a nightly basis), I’d hope a few of you folks on the other side of the aisle would agree that taking a few steps away from Godwin’s Law might be good for the public discourse. If you’ll write to Glenn Beck and say so, I’ll tell MoveOn.org.
256 ottovbvs // Aug 17, 2009 at 1:16 pm
jwrosenzweig // Aug 17, 2009 at 1:04 pm
” So, instead of Bush outpacing Obama by 8,000%, as Trajan alleged, Bush leads by perhaps 14-15%.”
………And Bush was in office for eight years, started a couple of wars and did all sort of damage to the constitution………that said these guys aren’t really in the intellectual honsesty business are they and nor can they comprehend the meaning of quantitative
257 Warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 2:12 pm
The Media Establishment’s rule is that Leftist can’t be Fascist. About worried senior seniors, Nancy Pelosi said, “I think they are Astroturf … you be the judge. They’re carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on health care.” In response to the Nancy Nazi Comment, Rush Limbaugh points out that Conservatives are opposed to Socialism and that the Nazis were a type of Socialist. The Media Establishment takes Limbaugh out of context and the New Majority Republicans (in order to be publicized by the Media Establishment) provide cover for the Nancy Nazi Comment by attacking Rush Limbaugh. New Majority Republicans are simply sycophants. Way to go, Nancy Boys!
http://www.breitbart.tv/pelosi-obamacare-protesters-carrying-swastikas/
258 ottovbvs // Aug 17, 2009 at 3:29 pm
warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 2:12 pm
“Nancy Pelosi said, “I think they are Astroturf … you be the judge. They’re carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on health care.”
………So what were they carrying?…….sticks of rhubarb?
“Rush Limbaugh points out that Conservatives are opposed to Socialism and that the Nazis were a type of Socialist. ”
……….The Nazis were NOT a type of socialism…….or why would they have received all their backing from big business and the militarist right…….only the addled followers of Limbaugh would believe that in 1932 German big business, the army and other right wing organizations in Germany like the Stahelm or the ferociously right wing Hugenburg press was in favor of “Socialism.”……..why not try reading one of the numerous books on the subject which can be obtained from most libraries rather than absorbing bs from Limbaugh
259 Warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 5:23 pm
“The Nazis were NOT a type of socialism…….or why would they have received all their backing from big business and the militarist right…….”ottovbvs // Aug 17, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Why do the Obamacrats receive propaganda support from the Military-Eco Industrial Complex’s transnational corporation, General Electric? You can be Fascist, Communist, or a would-be-World Government and GE will “partner” with you if you promise to purchase windmills from them. Obama is a World Citizen. New Majority Republicans are World Citizens. GE is a World Citizen. All transnational corporations (Military Industrial Complex corporations included) by their very existence must conduct themselves as good World Citizens.
260 ottovbvs // Aug 17, 2009 at 5:48 pm
warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 5:23 pm
……..Can’t you do better than non sequiturs?……Both parties receive support from what you call the Military Eco industrial complex……what the hell do think Exxon or Halliburton are but transnational corporations……it’s the way the system works in the US…….nothing to do with I. G. Farben or Thyssen backing Hitler in the thirties…….the Nazis were not a socialist party…..their use to the Krupps and Farbens was as a means of checking socialism and trade unionism…..go read a book for godsake……you’re not a good ad for he US ed system
261 Warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 6:52 pm
“Drama at GE shareholders meeting”
Fox News producer infiltrates event; ‘hostility’ over MSNBC
By Paul Bond
April 22, 2009, 06:38 PM ET
Updated: April 24, 2009, 05:52 PM ET
Page 2
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3i888016761f9ec824f862a5c265de605c?pn=2
“We are living through history, and I don’t mean that in a positive sense,” Immelt said.
“The CEO tried to assure shareholders that GE has positioned itself for an economic recovery, with a new focus on products that could capture some of what GE estimates is $2 trillion worth of government stimulus spending worldwide. That includes windmills and other clean energy equipment and new health care technology.”
262 Warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 7:07 pm
“Drama at GE shareholders meeting”
Fox News producer infiltrates event; ‘hostility’ over MSNBC
By Paul Bond
April 22, 2009, 06:38 PM ET
Updated: April 24, 2009, 05:52 PM ET
Excerpt:
Czajkowski is a retired major with the U.S. Army and was asking Immelt to explain why GE was doing business with Iran while that country was supplying weapons to Iraqis who were killing American soldiers.
“Immelt never answered my question, A, and B, shut my microphone off,” he said.
Czajkowski said about 15 shareholders voiced criticism of NBC, MSNBC or CNBC, and they usually received applause. When Immelt defended the networks, he was booed.
“He didn’t have good answers,” Czajkowski said.
————————————————————————-
ottovbvs,
Is the government of Iran a Socialist government or a Fascist government?
263 Warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 7:26 pm
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nazi
The Media Establishment’s rule is that Leftist can’t be Fascist. About worried senior seniors, Nancy Pelosi said, “I think they are Astroturf … you be the judge. They’re carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on health care.” In response to the Nancy Nazi Comment, Rush Limbaugh pointed out that Conservatives are opposed to Socialism and that the Nazis were a type of Socialist.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nazi
—————————–
ottovbvs,
Is the government of Iran a Socialist government or a Fascist government?
264 trajan // Aug 17, 2009 at 8:44 pm
jwrosenzweig // Aug 17, 2009 at 1:04 pm
I tried your experiment. You’re full of crap.
265 lasulasu // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:22 pm
trajan // Aug 17, 2009 at 8:44 pm
”
jwrosenzweig // Aug 17, 2009 at 1:04 pm
I tried your experiment. You’re full of crap.
”
I tried it also, and duplicated jwrosenzweig results…
http://www.google.com/search?q=Hitler+Bush&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
http://www.google.com/search?q=Hitler+Obama&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Try it again.
266 trajan // Aug 17, 2009 at 10:09 pm
lasulasu // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:22 pm
So what’s this without taking any of this farther than it’s worth?
http://www.bing.com/search?setlang=en-US&mkt=en-US&q=obama+hitler
267 lasulasu // Aug 17, 2009 at 11:59 pm
trajan // Aug 17, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Obviously a liberofascist/fundanazi conspiracy…
268 Balmung // Aug 18, 2009 at 4:05 am
David, your credibility on things like this has been nuked, BIG time.
http://spectator.org/blog/2009/08/17/frum-refuses-to-call-out-moyer
You seriously believe you can sit there, chastise people about violence and inciting hatred after you go on Bill Moyer’s show and falsely blame Mark Levin for things Moyer himself has done in the past and then think you have ANY standing with us…
You, sir, are still whining. Quit it. Now.
269 Balmung // Aug 18, 2009 at 4:07 am
Oh, and get a grip already.
270 ottovbvs // Aug 18, 2009 at 9:33 am
warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 7:07 pm
“Czajkowski is a retired major with the U.S. Army and was asking Immelt to explain why GE was doing business with Iran while that country was supplying weapons to Iraqis who were killing American soldiers.”
…………Perhaps he should have posed this question to Reagan who did the same thing ……what’s he proposing the indictment of GE and Immelt? …….the guy is obviously a nut
” ottovbvs,
Is the government of Iran a Socialist government or a Fascist government?”
………..Hard to tell exactly what the govt of Iran is……..some sort of weird jumble of theocracy and democracy……it’s certainly not fascist because one of the hallmarks of a fascist state is that they don’t allow competing political parties
………..In any case none of this has anything to do with your original claim that the Nazi party was socialist…..it wasn’t so why don’t you have the good grace to admit it and we can all get on with life
271 Warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 12:21 pm
“Is the government of Iran a Socialist government or a Fascist government?”
On Aug 18, 2009 at 9:33 am, ottovbvs answered the above question as follows:
“some sort of weird jumble of theocracy and democracy……it’s certainly not fascist because one of the hallmarks of a fascist state is that they don’t allow competing political parties”
Note that ottovbvs gives Iran credit for being a democracy.
In addition, ottovbvs exclaims as follows: “In any case none of this has anything to do with your original claim that the Nazi party was socialist…..it wasn’t so why don’t you have the good grace to admit it and we can all get on with life”.
Poor ottovbvs, you have a lot of dictionaries to rewrite before you can get on with your life.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nazi
The Media Establishment’s rule is that Leftists can’t be Fascists. About worried seniors, Nancy Pelosi said, “I think they are Astroturf … you be the judge. They’re carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on health care.” In response to the Nancy Nazi Comment, Rush Limbaugh pointed out that Conservatives are opposed to Socialism and that the Nazis were a type of Socialist.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nazi
272 Warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 12:43 pm
As I said earlier, “Neo-Nationalist (Citizens of the World Nation) religiously believe that Americans have produced too much carbon dioxide. Eco-Fascist believe that the Baby Boom generation is too prosperous to deserve the Medicare benefits that the New Majority Politicians (Bush-Clinton-Bush) promised them. The Eco-Fascist (Citizens of the World) have a solution for the Unsustainable Baby Boomers.”
——————————————————
balmung // Aug 18, 2009 at 4:05 am
David, your credibility on things like this has been nuked, BIG time.
http://spectator.org/blog/2009/08/17/frum-refuses-to-call-out-moyer
——————————————————
balmung,
I saw the Bill Moyer’s show butt kiss that was referenced in the above Spectator article.
Frum’s mission seemed to be to support the notion “that the Baby Boom generation is too prosperous to deserve the Medicare benefits that the New Majority Politicians (Bush-Clinton-Bush) promised them” and that Republicans must help Obama divert those would be expenditures to other people.
273 ottovbvs // Aug 18, 2009 at 12:56 pm
warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 12:21 pm
“Note that ottovbvs gives Iran credit for being a democracy.”
……..It has elements of pluralism in its political process and limited democracy….in many ways it’s more democratic than either Jordan or Egypt (are they fascist states?)
……not that Warren would know what pluralism means when he think just because a party has socialist in it’s name that means it practices socialism…….the “socialist” in Nazi party was as real as the “clean air” in Bush’s pro pollution Clean Air Act
274 ottovbvs // Aug 18, 2009 at 1:02 pm
warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 12:43 pm
……..btw warren I’m making available at no charge a list of the clinical characteristics that distinguish rational from paranoid thinkers…..I really think you need it…..you might recognize something
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/conspiracy_theory/the_paranoid_mentality/Rational_thinker_versus_paranoid.html
275 Warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 4:22 pm
ottovbvs,
You may not be able to tell the difference between a democracy and a fascist state but you have done a good job of defining yourself.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ixeFBxfLzaSjs8Mb8cuFmtPOT6-wD9A5F3N80
Excerpts follow:
Iran’s prosecutor general ordered the closure Monday of the pro-reform newspaper Etemad-e Melli for “publishing articles against national security and public expedience.” The paper had run articles on claims by prominent opposition figure Mahdi Karroubi that some detainees were raped in prison. Karroubi heads the political party that runs the newspaper.
Feizollah Arabsorkhi, a prominent member of a reformist political party, was severely beaten by his jailers at Evin prison when he wouldn’t attend his trial, the Iran Green Wave Camp Web site said Tuesday.
He was sent to Tehran’s Baghiatollah-al-Azam military hospital, which is controlled by the Revolutionary Guards, an elite military unit that led the crackdown against protesters.
Ahmad Zeidabadi, a journalist and former student leader, is also in poor health after being forced to break his hunger strike on Monday, added the site. He stopped eating after his Aug. 8 court appearance.
Zeidabadi leads a group of reformists who were once members of Iran’s largest student organization, the Office for Fostering Unity.
The two activists are among more than 100 prominent opposition supporters on trial since Aug. 1 in Iran on accusations of plotting to overthrow the clerical leadership through the protests.
The defendants at the mass trial include a former Iranian vice president and other former senior government officials linked to the country’s pro-reform movement, French and Iranian-American academics, employees of the British and French embassies, and an Iranian-Canadian reporter for Newsweek magazine.
They are charged with plotting a “soft revolution” against the Islamic theocracy. The opposition denies the accusations and dismisses what it calls a “show trial.”
Some of the defendants have given televised confessions during their court appearances, though rights groups say such admissions are likely coerced.
276 ottovbvs // Aug 18, 2009 at 4:37 pm
warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 4:22 pm
“You may not be able to tell the difference between a democracy and a fascist state but you have done a good job of defining yourself.”
…………So they are repressive…..so are Jordan, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, North Korea and China for that matter …..I ask you again are these fascist states?…..On a repressiveness index I’d say Iran was in about the same place as all of these except NK which is even more repressive but not fascist…….I’m afraid you don’t know the difference between a fascist state and a repressive one…..why don’t you invest some time in learning the difference instead of telling us all what you don’t know
277 Warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 10:10 pm
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Fascists
“Word History: It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, “bundle, (political) group,” but also refers to the movement’s emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name of Mussolini’s group of revolutionaries was soon used for similar nationalistic movements in other countries that sought to gain power through violence and ruthlessness, such as National Socialism.”
278 Warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 10:12 pm
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nazi
The Media Establishment’s rule is that Leftists can’t be Fascists. About worried seniors, Nancy Pelosi said, “I think they are Astroturf … you be the judge. They’re carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on health care.” In response to the Nancy Nazi Comment, Rush Limbaugh pointed out that Conservatives are opposed to Socialism and that the Nazis were a type of Socialist.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nazi
279 Warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 10:17 pm
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nazi
“Na·zi Pronunciation (näts, nt-)
n. pl. Na·zis
1. A member of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, founded in Germany in 1919 and brought to power in 1933 under Adolf Hitler.
2. often nazi An adherent or advocate of policies characteristic of Nazism; a fascist.
adj.
Of, relating to, controlled by, or typical of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party.
[German, short for Nationalsozialistische deutsche Arbeiter-Partei, National Socialist German Workers' Party.]”
——————-
ottovbvs,
You may not be able to tell the difference between a democracy and a fascist state but you have done a good job of defining yourself.
280 Warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 10:24 pm
“Is the government of Iran a Socialist government or a Fascist government?”
On Aug 18, 2009 at 9:33 am, ottovbvs answered the above question as follows:
“some sort of weird jumble of theocracy and democracy……it’s certainly not fascist because one of the hallmarks of a fascist state is that they don’t allow competing political parties”
Note that ottovbvs gives Iran credit for being a democracy.
In addition, ottovbvs exclaims as follows: “In any case none of this has anything to do with your original claim that the Nazi party was socialist…..it wasn’t so why don’t you have the good grace to admit it and we can all get on with life”.
Poor ottovbvs, you have a lot of dictionaries to rewrite before you can get on with your life.
281 Warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 10:34 pm
warren // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Fascism is named after a symbol from the Roman Empire. There are a variety of scholarly works that have been written about what qualifies as “fascist”. Leftist usually insist that the term “fascist” can’t be applied to them because they are not nationalist. However, Obama is a neo-nationalist. His chosen science advisor is also a neo-nationalist. What “neo-nation” am I talking about? Their neo-nation is the World! Obama told the people of the world that he is a “Citizen of the World”. Neo-Nationalist (Citizens of the World) religiously believe that Americans have produced too much carbon dioxide. Eco-Fascist believe that the Baby Boom generation is too prosperous to deserve the Medicare benefits that the New Majority Politicians (Bush-Clinton-Bush) promised them. The Eco-Fascist (Citizens of the World) have a solution for the Unsustainable Baby Boomers.
http://www.cradlesforcodgers.com/
282 ottovbvs // Aug 19, 2009 at 9:25 am
warren // Aug 18, 2009 at 10:34 pm
………Instead of endlessly repeating yourself and refusing to answer simple questions you really aught to read this comparison of the rational and paranoid because you’ve got it bad man
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/conspiracy_theory/the_paranoid_mentality/Rational_thinker_versus_paranoid.html
283 Warren // Aug 19, 2009 at 1:51 pm
DAVID FRUM: I am not an unorthodox conservative. I think I’m a calm conservative. Right now I think a lot of — their blood is up. They want to win this fight.
BILL MOYERS: Is that why we’re seeing these protests, these loud, raucous protests?
DAVID FRUM: Well, let’s distinguish between the people who are in those halls, who I think are many– who, as I say, are people who have a good government plan in Medicare and are anxious because they know that President Obama wants to take a lot of money out of Medicare. That’s how he’s going to finance his plan.
————————————————
Eco-Fascist believe that the Baby Boom generation is too prosperous to deserve the Medicare benefits that the New Majority Politicians (Bush-Clinton-Bush) promised them.
284 Warren // Aug 19, 2009 at 2:15 pm
DAVID FRUM: They’re going to pass something. So the question for Republicans is what do you want that to be? You have an interest here, too. You would like to see the rise in health care costs slow. And you would like to see more room in the federal budget for tax cuts in the future. There are some mistakes in the way that President Obama has presented his case that have made him vulnerable.
DAVID FRUM: You know, he’s made it very clear why his health care reform will be good for the federal budget. He’s not made it so clear why it would be good for the typical person. That’s a point of vulnerability. But if the Republicans win, this is not going to be a great victory for individual liberty. It’s going to be a victory for the status quo. The people who are angriest in those town halls are people who have an excellent deal on Medicare who are determined to protect it.
DAVID FRUM: You can’t blame them. People are very attached to what they have. But understand the message the political system will take if Obama is defeated is not let’s have a lot more free market individualism. The message the political system will take is never tamper with Medicare again unless it is to make it more generous. From a conservative point of view, from a Republican point of view, is that a good message?
———————————————
Transnational Eco-Fascist believe that the Baby Boom generation is too prosperous to deserve the Medicare benefits that the New Majority Politicians (Bush-Clinton-Bush) promised them. “Never tamper with Medicare again unless it is to make it more generous.”
285 Warren // Aug 21, 2009 at 12:09 pm
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZWQ3Njk0OWNlZGNhZDVmOTFiNjJmYTRkNjMxNWJjYjI=&w=MA==
“Stupid Nation” – “Just how stupid do they think we are?”
By Rich Lowrey
21 AUG 09
Read it.
286 Liberal Fascism ( Obama ) « Thoughts Of A Conservative Christian // Aug 30, 2009 at 2:34 pm
[...] recent broadside against conservatives who find relevance in fascism and Nazism. David writes “can we get a grip here” and I certainly agree that if people think Obama will become a [...]
287 Pauli // Aug 31, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Uh, oh. “Sarah Palin gets 1,070+ invitations” to speak. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26604.html
cha-ching, baby
288 Random quotes on the Obama-Nazi meme « Arthur Goldwag // Oct 1, 2009 at 9:27 am
[...] “History’s actual fascists were not primarily known for their anti-smoking policies or generous social welfare programs. Fascism celebrated violence, anti-rationalism and hysterical devotion to an authoritarian leader. To date, the Obama administration has fallen rather short in these departments…..Can we get a grip here? It is possible to express opposition to a president’s policies without preposterous name-calling — without diminishing and disparaging the unique experiences of those who did actually suffer from actual persecution by actual Nazis.”–David Frum, New Majority [...]
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