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	<title>Comments on: California&#8217;s GOP: They&#8217;ll Be Back</title>
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	<description>Building a conservatism that can win again</description>
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		<title>By: Demosthenes</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/californias-gop-theyll-be-back/comment-page-1#comment-71835</link>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15648#comment-71835</guid>
		<description>In order to regain power, the California GOP has to start running candidates that actually have a chance of winning.  The only Republicans that can win today are moderates,  but the California GOP is entirely run by the &quot;teabagging&quot; right wingers, so are loathed by Independents and Democrats.  Until the GOP consistently runs moderates, they will remain a small minority party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In order to regain power, the California GOP has to start running candidates that actually have a chance of winning.  The only Republicans that can win today are moderates,  but the California GOP is entirely run by the &#8220;teabagging&#8221; right wingers, so are loathed by Independents and Democrats.  Until the GOP consistently runs moderates, they will remain a small minority party.</p>
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		<title>By: SFTor1</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/californias-gop-theyll-be-back/comment-page-1#comment-71755</link>
		<dc:creator>SFTor1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15648#comment-71755</guid>
		<description>California, of which I am a resident, has become pretty much unmanageable.

The fixes as far as I can see: get rid of Prop 13 (the biggest problem of which is undertaxation of commercial buildings) redistricting (the State is gerrymandered like you won&#039;t believe), getting people out of prison. (the latter will require curbing the power of the prison guards union.)

California demographics do not favor the GOP. DFL&#039;s suggestion that the party should continue playing spoiler is probably the sad reality, and will continue to sour Californians on the once proud GOP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>California, of which I am a resident, has become pretty much unmanageable.</p>
<p>The fixes as far as I can see: get rid of Prop 13 (the biggest problem of which is undertaxation of commercial buildings) redistricting (the State is gerrymandered like you won&#8217;t believe), getting people out of prison. (the latter will require curbing the power of the prison guards union.)</p>
<p>California demographics do not favor the GOP. DFL&#8217;s suggestion that the party should continue playing spoiler is probably the sad reality, and will continue to sour Californians on the once proud GOP.</p>
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		<title>By: pnwguy</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/californias-gop-theyll-be-back/comment-page-1#comment-71731</link>
		<dc:creator>pnwguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15648#comment-71731</guid>
		<description>Sinz54:

I lived in CA for a few years and travel there monthly on business trips.  I would venture that in that top 3 or at least top 5 of state government expenditures are PRISONS.  But that&#039;s a different topic.

I am all for user fees when they can be efficiently and fairly collected.  It&#039;s a way to internalize costs that markets can&#039;t otherwise allocate. But, freeways in CA aren&#039;t isolated highways with great distances between exits, like the northeastern turnpikes and tollways you may be familiar with.  These are the major arterial highways for travel all throughout urban areas.  Retrofitting them for any sort of toll collection system is a MASSIVE and expensive undertaking.  Many of the large bridges collect tolls, but they have natural choke points with only a single entrance and exit.

Fuel excise taxes do a pretty good job of allocating a lot of highway costs with minimal collection overhead.  CA could simply raise them.  But since they are called TAXES instead of user fees, the usual anti-tax groups will oppose them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sinz54:</p>
<p>I lived in CA for a few years and travel there monthly on business trips.  I would venture that in that top 3 or at least top 5 of state government expenditures are PRISONS.  But that&#8217;s a different topic.</p>
<p>I am all for user fees when they can be efficiently and fairly collected.  It&#8217;s a way to internalize costs that markets can&#8217;t otherwise allocate. But, freeways in CA aren&#8217;t isolated highways with great distances between exits, like the northeastern turnpikes and tollways you may be familiar with.  These are the major arterial highways for travel all throughout urban areas.  Retrofitting them for any sort of toll collection system is a MASSIVE and expensive undertaking.  Many of the large bridges collect tolls, but they have natural choke points with only a single entrance and exit.</p>
<p>Fuel excise taxes do a pretty good job of allocating a lot of highway costs with minimal collection overhead.  CA could simply raise them.  But since they are called TAXES instead of user fees, the usual anti-tax groups will oppose them.</p>
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		<title>By: sinz54</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/californias-gop-theyll-be-back/comment-page-1#comment-71709</link>
		<dc:creator>sinz54</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15648#comment-71709</guid>
		<description>Reason60: &lt;blockquote&gt; A look at the state budget shows that the single biggest expenditure is for health services &lt;/blockquote&gt;
OK. What is the second biggest expenditure?
The third biggest?

I&#039;m guessing that somewhere in there, highway maintenance and construction is extremely expensive, given CA&#039;s massive network of freeways.  The answer is simple.  Convert them to toll roads, and use the toll revenues to help balance CA&#039;s budget.  This would also have the desirable side effect of discouraging unnecessary driving, reducing smog and reducing America&#039;s contribution to global greenhouse gas emissions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reason60:  A look at the state budget shows that the single biggest expenditure is for health services<br />
OK. What is the second biggest expenditure?<br />
The third biggest?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m guessing that somewhere in there, highway maintenance and construction is extremely expensive, given CA&#8217;s massive network of freeways.  The answer is simple.  Convert them to toll roads, and use the toll revenues to help balance CA&#8217;s budget.  This would also have the desirable side effect of discouraging unnecessary driving, reducing smog and reducing America&#8217;s contribution to global greenhouse gas emissions.</p>
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		<title>By: DFL</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/californias-gop-theyll-be-back/comment-page-1#comment-71701</link>
		<dc:creator>DFL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15648#comment-71701</guid>
		<description>Jerry Brown will be responsible for California shortly.  Let he and the Democrats deal with the dire mess in Sacramento.  Republicans should just criticize from the outside and pounce when appropriate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry Brown will be responsible for California shortly.  Let he and the Democrats deal with the dire mess in Sacramento.  Republicans should just criticize from the outside and pounce when appropriate.</p>
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		<title>By: Reason60</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/californias-gop-theyll-be-back/comment-page-1#comment-71692</link>
		<dc:creator>Reason60</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15648#comment-71692</guid>
		<description>Actually, as a CA resident, I agree that the proposition process has been hijacked by special interests, to become a corrupt method of governing.
the endless lists of propositions have carved our protected budget items, which means that the state government actually has little control over budgeting; add to this mix the refusal of Republicans to raise taxes and the refusal of Dems to cut programs, and you end up with deadlock.

I am not optimistic about either party- Campbell&#039;s notion of cutting employee pay is a bumpersticker, not a policy. If we want to truly balance the budget, we have to cut the scope of what government does; and that is the hardest thing, because that would mean cutting things that are popular.

A look at the state budget shows that the single biggest expenditure is for health services; cutting these services would mean in many cases, cutting off the medical care that people rely on. Cutting cost in the abstract is very nice, and wins applause lines at Rotary Club luncheons, but the republicans would be much less popular once they were faced with videotape of senior citizens getting evicted onto the street when their program gets cut.

Basically the trouble at the state level is the same as at the national level- neither the Republicans nor the Democrats are willing to face the painful choices that budgeting requires; so the deficits continue to grow, and they both pretend the solutions are simple, &quot;if only the other side were not being so stubborn&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, as a CA resident, I agree that the proposition process has been hijacked by special interests, to become a corrupt method of governing.<br />
the endless lists of propositions have carved our protected budget items, which means that the state government actually has little control over budgeting; add to this mix the refusal of Republicans to raise taxes and the refusal of Dems to cut programs, and you end up with deadlock.</p>
<p>I am not optimistic about either party- Campbell&#8217;s notion of cutting employee pay is a bumpersticker, not a policy. If we want to truly balance the budget, we have to cut the scope of what government does; and that is the hardest thing, because that would mean cutting things that are popular.</p>
<p>A look at the state budget shows that the single biggest expenditure is for health services; cutting these services would mean in many cases, cutting off the medical care that people rely on. Cutting cost in the abstract is very nice, and wins applause lines at Rotary Club luncheons, but the republicans would be much less popular once they were faced with videotape of senior citizens getting evicted onto the street when their program gets cut.</p>
<p>Basically the trouble at the state level is the same as at the national level- neither the Republicans nor the Democrats are willing to face the painful choices that budgeting requires; so the deficits continue to grow, and they both pretend the solutions are simple, &#8220;if only the other side were not being so stubborn&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: SpartacusIsNotDead</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/californias-gop-theyll-be-back/comment-page-1#comment-71688</link>
		<dc:creator>SpartacusIsNotDead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15648#comment-71688</guid>
		<description>Tom Gray wrote:    &quot;The Democrats’ big problem is that the state is a mess and the debacle has happened on their watch. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is nominally a Republican but he has governed as an independent, as often at odds with Republicans as with Democrats. &quot;

I guess in 2012 Republicans will be arguing that Bush was nominally a Republican, but since he ruined everything it&#039;s not really appropriate to consider him a Republican.

When did fantasy become a substitute for thoughtful analysis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom Gray wrote:    &#8220;The Democrats’ big problem is that the state is a mess and the debacle has happened on their watch. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is nominally a Republican but he has governed as an independent, as often at odds with Republicans as with Democrats. &#8221;</p>
<p>I guess in 2012 Republicans will be arguing that Bush was nominally a Republican, but since he ruined everything it&#8217;s not really appropriate to consider him a Republican.</p>
<p>When did fantasy become a substitute for thoughtful analysis?</p>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/californias-gop-theyll-be-back/comment-page-1#comment-71669</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15648#comment-71669</guid>
		<description>Tzal // Nov 10, 2009 at 10:24 am 

&quot;I was stunned by this suggestion. SHOCKED! that anyone would recommend dismantling direct democracy. 

But he was right.&quot;

.........Of course he was right........popular sovereignty over the nuts and bolts of governing is a superficially attractive but actually totally destructive way of proceeding........and CA is the proof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tzal // Nov 10, 2009 at 10:24 am </p>
<p>&#8220;I was stunned by this suggestion. SHOCKED! that anyone would recommend dismantling direct democracy. </p>
<p>But he was right.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;Of course he was right&#8230;&#8230;..popular sovereignty over the nuts and bolts of governing is a superficially attractive but actually totally destructive way of proceeding&#8230;&#8230;..and CA is the proof.</p>
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		<title>By: Tzal</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/californias-gop-theyll-be-back/comment-page-1#comment-71667</link>
		<dc:creator>Tzal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15648#comment-71667</guid>
		<description>LFC -- About a decade ago a friend of mine argued that California should scrap its proposition system. I was stunned by this suggestion. SHOCKED! that anyone would recommend dismantling direct democracy.  

But he was right. The problem is that there is no way to scrap the system and un-do the damage done by the various propositions short of a constitutional convention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LFC &#8212; About a decade ago a friend of mine argued that California should scrap its proposition system. I was stunned by this suggestion. SHOCKED! that anyone would recommend dismantling direct democracy.  </p>
<p>But he was right. The problem is that there is no way to scrap the system and un-do the damage done by the various propositions short of a constitutional convention.</p>
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		<title>By: LFC</title>
		<link>http://www.frumforum.com/californias-gop-theyll-be-back/comment-page-1#comment-71664</link>
		<dc:creator>LFC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frumforum.com/?p=15648#comment-71664</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The Legislature, which has produced the laws and budgets responsible for the state’s fiscal woes, has been solidly Democratic in both houses for decades.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, it&#039;s minority party obstructionism, much like the U.S. Senate.  If the GOP takes control, do you think the Dems will be more amenable to giving them exactly what they want after decades of being told &quot;no&quot; at every turn?  Paybacks are a bitch.  Without a super majority, nothing can get done ... and the governed suffer for the cause of political gamesmanship.  


&lt;i&gt;This was the party that, in the early 20th Century, attacked special-interest politics with the initiative, referendum and non-partisan local elections.&lt;/i&gt;

I thought it was ballot initiatives and referendums that  were the main cause of California&#039;s budget to be unmanageable, not laws explicitly passed by the legislature and signed by a governor.  So if you are saying the GOP takes credit for this system, it tells me that they don&#039;t know how to govern.

It would be interesting, though, to see either party stand up and tell the people of California that they can&#039;t directly govern the state, and the system of passing laws and rules by popular vote was through.  It&#039;s the right thing to do, but I can&#039;t imagine it would be politically possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Legislature, which has produced the laws and budgets responsible for the state’s fiscal woes, has been solidly Democratic in both houses for decades.</p>
<p>Actually, it&#8217;s minority party obstructionism, much like the U.S. Senate.  If the GOP takes control, do you think the Dems will be more amenable to giving them exactly what they want after decades of being told &#8220;no&#8221; at every turn?  Paybacks are a bitch.  Without a super majority, nothing can get done &#8230; and the governed suffer for the cause of political gamesmanship.  </p>
<p>This was the party that, in the early 20th Century, attacked special-interest politics with the initiative, referendum and non-partisan local elections.</p>
<p>I thought it was ballot initiatives and referendums that  were the main cause of California&#8217;s budget to be unmanageable, not laws explicitly passed by the legislature and signed by a governor.  So if you are saying the GOP takes credit for this system, it tells me that they don&#8217;t know how to govern.</p>
<p>It would be interesting, though, to see either party stand up and tell the people of California that they can&#8217;t directly govern the state, and the system of passing laws and rules by popular vote was through.  It&#8217;s the right thing to do, but I can&#8217;t imagine it would be politically possible.</p>
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