RSS Feed MenuI spent more than half my life in the Orient. In Thailand, they bow but slightly different from the Japanese. When I was stationed in Okinawa I did my time in the karate dojo and that included a formal class in how to bow properly. A common theme is the person of lower rank bows lower; how low he or she goes depends on the relative rank of the other person.
There is a whole dynamic going on with Obama’s bow- the President of the United States is equal (if not superior) to the Emperor of Japan. If Obama wanted to execute a courtesy bow, a slight bend forward at the waist followed by a slight nod of the head while maintaining eye contact would have been appropriate.
Westerners are not accustomed to bowing, and we are generally ignorant of the nuances of this custom. It’s not that we’re considered rude for not bowing- we’re considered savage hairy barbarians to begin with, the fact that we don’t bow or don’t know how to bow just compounds the issue.
There is a right way and a wrong way to do it. What Obama did has the Japanese (and the rest of East Asia) rolling in fits of laughter, because it is the bow an employee gives to his boss, or a child gives to parents. He went WAY too low; it is only one step above a kow-tow.
Compare Obama’s bow with how he conducted himself in the company of the Queen of England, and then contrast this with the way he leaned forward to bow and scrape before the King of Saudi Arabia; this certainly leaves a lot of room to wonder about which direction this man’s sentiments lie.
I am an American. The only King I bow and pay homage to is Elvis.
Sean Linnane also blogs at STORMBRINGER.
ottovbvs // Nov 19, 2009 at 2:32 pm
cpanza // Nov 19, 2009 at 1:26 pm
“Balcone/Otto: Actually, the subject of whether a POTUS (or anyone) should adhere to ritual practices in a foreign land, which ones to perform and which not to, and if so how to do them properly, and a discussion of how this attitude towards ritual relates to the POTUS’s attitude towards international relationships, how it sends signals about the attitude of the country as a whole, and so on, is not silly at all. It’s important, and actually pretty interesting. What’s silly in this thread is the way in which that subject has been treated in a cartoonish and un-serious manner.”
……..whilst I’m the first to agree that understanding other lands and cultures is very important in our interconnected world…….in this as in most things there’s an order of priority…..at this time I’d say understanding muslim culture or perhaps the tribal system in Afghanistan ranks somewhat higher in the pecking order than Japanese greeting rituals…….not that this has anything to do with understanding foreign cultures which the right almost universally disdain……what it has do with is providing another opportunity for conservatives to give us another display of their Obama Derangement Syndrome in full flight……it’s entertainment and should be treated as such.
cpanza // Nov 19, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Otto:
In a larger sense, I don’t disagree about the pecking order. My point isn’t about the reasoning or motivations for raising the Japanese situation here, but rather the subject itself, which is actually quite interesting (speaking in general).
I think that, unfortunately, when the only item on the commenting (and thread writer’s) menu is this or that way of serving up constant doses of ‘outrage’ the conversation becomes tiresome. I don’t doubt that this was the same situation regarding Bush for many years at different sites (even being left-oriented, I avoided those sites). Unfortunately, the fact that the left has been infected in the past by the addiction for daily doses of outrage doesn’t make the conversation any more intelligent now that it’s directed at Obama. Ah well.
ottovbvs // Nov 19, 2009 at 4:03 pm
52 cpanza // Nov 19, 2009 at 2:56 pm
“I think that, unfortunately, when the only item on the commenting (and thread writer’s) menu is this or that way of serving up constant doses of ‘outrage’ the conversation becomes tiresome.”
……..C’mon you’re not going to deny us a little fun at the expense of folks like the Emily Post of the Soo are you……..foreign customs and observances are interesting but you’re not expecting a serious discussion about them from Emily, Linanne and the rest of the corps de ballet are you
MI-GOPer // Nov 19, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Independent wades into the pile we affectionately call the FrumForum trolls @ 47: “and ottovbvs, migop is right. you got p’wned”
The bigger problem that AutomaticBS & the other trolls have is that they have zero credibility on any site that is “…dedicated to the modernization and renewal of the Republican party and the conservative movement”.
The pronouncement of that goal by the blog’s creator means that far Left Democrat activists like AutomaticBS, TeaBagged, BlankHead and TxAnne are here to mostly annoy, irritate, inflame and incite. They revel in it –they feed on baiting others, endlessly nitpicking and snide cutdowns that are better suited for a 2nd grade playground than a place for serious discussion like Frum Forum.
Just because some here have tolerated their antics and actually engaged with them in the mindless and unconstructive bantering doesn’t mean they should have free pass when blathering about life in ObamaLand or bashing Bush, Rove, Cheney or Palin.
They should be stopped when they start in with the fictional claims –ie, “I voted for Reagan”; “I’m a conservative”; “I was a republican until _______”, etc– and they should be called on it.
We did that with AutomaticBS in this thread and many, many others.
We’ve done that with BlankHead and his attempt to appear as something other than a regular at HuffPo.
And their best response, on their best days, as a collective that single-mindedly mimics the Borg and issues forth standard far Left talking points is a lame, 2nd grade playground cutdown… well, you can quickly see why they’re discredited.
You can bet that when TeaBagged or BlankHead or BS-boi are over on HuffPo or the Democrat Underground and a GOPer strays into their sewer, they are quick as a revenue agent to scream “chickenhawk”, “keyboard militia”, “Nazi fascist” and the worst label they can attach to someone is “patriot” –said with an ACLU sneer that would make Bill Ayers fall in love again.
They are a sad lot and deserve our pity. I’m not sure they deserve access to the forum; but that’s a policy matter for the creator, David Frum.
It’s good enough to know that they are outclassed and p’wned more often than NancyPelosi visits the plastic surgeon.
ottovbvs // Nov 19, 2009 at 4:49 pm
MI-GOPer // Nov 19, 2009 at 4:35 pm
……thanks Emily for another dose of enlightenment and monomania
balconesfault // Nov 19, 2009 at 8:43 pm
For MI-GOPer, fealty to the Republican Party (unless there’s a candidate running to the right of the GOP, as in NY-23) should be the price of admission to any discussion.
Useful if you want to marginalize the Republican Party (for example, I’ve seen GOPer in some threads trying to throw Sinz overboard) … but a contradictory position if one really thinks that your ideology has a chance of winning in the marketplace of public opinion.
Hikaru // Nov 19, 2009 at 11:16 pm
MI-GOPer is just venting because he feels he has something to win on. Like someone else had said on this board, if this is the GOP platform, you guys might as well start blaming ACORN in 2012 as well.
Back on topic, there are bigger fish to fry. Overall, Obama’s trip was pretty worthless. All this bowing controversy is doing is supplying fodder for an already overhyped and angry percentage of people. Of course the only people claiming to even care about what he did are Republicans. Considering how much of a disaster (to put mildly) a foreign policy George W Bush had, I can appreciate what he’s doing.
MI-GOPer // Nov 20, 2009 at 8:27 am
BlankHead contends: “For MI-GOPer, fealty to the Republican Party should be the price of admission to any discussion.”
Not at all, troll. On a site that dedicated to inviting all Americans –even unpatriotic ones like you– to a free-wheeling debate of the day’s headlines… that would be the place for you and your troll’ish tribe whilst feasting on rotting ferrets under the bridge.
Here, as I’ve pointed out before to you and your oh-so dense and thick headed tribe, the site is dedicated to rebuilding the GOP and the conservative movement. That’s why we’re here… you’re here to inflame, incite, irritate and annoy –to spoil and defraud.
I would no more head over to HuffPo or the DailyKos to flame on true-fire eating Obama worshipers than I would attend a DNC convention.
But for you and your tribe, you are here for one unconstructive purpose: to thwart anyone interested in rebuilding the Party.
Loyalty to the Party or oaths aren’t the issue, BlankHead. Why you are here is the issue.
MI-GOPer // Nov 20, 2009 at 8:28 am
Like I said @ #54:
You can bet that when TeaBagged or BlankHead or BS-boi are over on HuffPo or the Democrat Underground and a GOPer strays into their sewer, they are quick as a revenue agent to scream “chickenhawk”, “keyboard militia”, “Nazi fascist” and the worst label they can attach to someone is “patriot” –said with an ACLU sneer that would make Bill Ayers fall in love again.
They are a sad lot and deserve our pity. I’m not sure they deserve access to the forum; but that’s a policy matter for the creator, David Frum.
It’s good enough to know that they are outclassed and p’wned more often than NancyPelosi visits the plastic surgeon.
Hikaru // Nov 20, 2009 at 9:15 am
Anyone, here or on HuffPo loses the argument when they are just mocking and calling others names.
I haven’t seen anything of substance from you. Just calling people unpatriotic and dumb only feeds your own ego. No one is listening MI-GOP…….
No one is listening.
VA Shepherd // Nov 20, 2009 at 9:35 am
To those who say this matter is trivial and unimportant, and that such bowing is customary in Japan:
Obama’s bizarre bowing first to the Saudi king and now the Japanese emperor is relevant because it reveals his unfortunate lack of leadership ability. Someone who makes a habit of apologizing and bowing to the rest of the world is not a suitable leader. Obama’s apologists can ridicule his critics as much as they like, but it doesn’t change the facts; national leaders do not lower themselves to his level, as evidenced by this compilation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U6fL7Y4BZA
As far as Japanese custom is concerned: As most people are aware, Japan has a highly formalized culture and etiquette is taken very seriously. Besides schools and martial arts dojos, it is also taught at major corporations to ensure that employees don’t make a blunder like Obama did. For one thing, you either bow or shake hands, not both, but that’s a typical amateur mistake. If you do bow, there are prescribed degrees depending on the situation. The degree to which Obama bowed would be suitable (minus handshake) for a subordinate making an abject apology to a superior, or from a subject to his sovereign.
I lived over 20 years in Asia, half of that spent in Japan. I also spent my time in the dojo, where etiquette, including bowing, is very important. Japanese TV variety shows frequently feature dressed up monkeys doing tricks. That’s largely how the Japanese view foreigners who butcher their language or otherwise attempt to navigate through their culture, and that is how Obama’s amateurish bow will be seen, but don’t expect the Japanese to tell you that – they’re much too polite.
The real question is not why Obama bowed (it’s obvious he’s an amateur), but why he committed this blunder a second time. Where are his handlers?
teabag // Nov 20, 2009 at 9:40 am
According to TPM , Fox News conducted a poll asking :
When the president of the United States is traveling overseas, do you think it is appropriate for him to bow to a foreign leader if that is the country’s custom or is it never appropriate for the president to bow to another leader?
After the noise made by the pundits on cable news, you would think that Americans would crucify their President once back home. Karl Rove called him “Weak” for respecting over culture. Dick Cheney came out from his undisclosed location or cave to blast the POTUS arguing that “No POTUS should bow, it shows weakness to our allies”, Bill Kristol said that “President Palin would have never bowed” (I guess that’s why about 60% of American think that Palin isn’t qualified to be president), Wolf Blitzer played the tape over and over again in the Situation even though Jack Cafferty told him that People don’t care…etc.
Here the “surprising” response from the American People, and I remind you that was a FoxNews Poll, not some “Liberal biais” poll.
Appropriate 67%, Never appropriate 26%. Even a majority of Republican respondents were okay with the bow, by a 53%-40% margin. Democrats weigh in at 84%-9%, and independents 62%-30%.
I guess that’s why FoxNews, CNN, MSNBC stopped their stupid coverage of their Bow-Gate
Raider1 // Nov 20, 2009 at 9:51 am
Otto…you’re reply to my laying waste to Obama;s credentials are “obviously pining for…GWB.” Is that your guys’ default response everytime you have no defense of Obama? (That he isn;t Bush?
And which identty are you today by the way? The acedemic, the oil man? Just want to know who i am speaking to.
Dispatches from the Republican Self-Immolation, Vol. 2 | Progressive Fix // Nov 20, 2009 at 2:44 pm
[...] bow to the Japanese emperor. Sean Linnane at Frum Forum, applying his expertise on bowing protocol, concluded that Obama “went WAY too low; it is only one step above a kow tow.” He added, “Compare [...]
MI-GOPer // Nov 20, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Raider1, the Troll Tribe at FrumForum is always defaulting to Bush Bashing; it’s their only play left in the playbook. They can’t defend Obama with employing the truth… that just damns him and their cause.
AutomaticBS is caught in a dilemma and it’s showing. In order to defend Obama Messiah & Master, he must lie. In order to lie, he must do it somewhere or on some venue where he hopes no one will take the time to dissect his rambling, ranting nonsense.
He’s been proven wrong so often on this site, I’d think he’d have some shame at some point.
But for that to happen, he’d have to have character. That isn’t likely for someone who is still living under a troll’s bridge, in the dark, feasting on dead ferrets.
MI-GOPer // Nov 20, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Hikaru at #60? Did you say something important or on topic?
Didn’t think so. Head back over to the DailyKos or HuffPo, ok? It’s more fertile ground with all that manure they spread.
Independent // Nov 20, 2009 at 4:38 pm
“According to TPM , Fox News conducted a poll asking : When the president of the United States is traveling overseas, do you think it is appropriate for him to bow to a foreign leader if that is the country’s custom or is it never appropriate for the president to bow to another leader?” teabag @ #62
the fox poll result you should be interested in claims:
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Fox News Poll: Approval of President Obama Hits New Low, 11-19-2009
Overall, a 57 percent majority says President Obama is providing the kind of leadership they expected, while 17 percent say he is a stronger leader than expected and 23 percent say he’s a weaker leader. When this question was asked about President George W. Bush early in his first term, 68 percent said his leadership was what they expected, 14 percent said he was a stronger leader than expected and 13 percent a weaker leader (July 2001).
Despite the drop in Obama’s approval rating, the president continues to outperform the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue. More than twice as many Americans disapprove (63 percent) as approve (26 percent) of the job Congress is doing.
Moreover, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s favorable rating is still in the doldrums, with a 28 percent minority of Americans saying they have a positive view of her and 50 percent holding a negative view. While half of Democrats (50 percent) have a favorable opinion of Pelosi, majorities of Republicans (77 percent) and independents (58 percent) view her unfavorably.
For President Obama, 54 percent of voters have a favorable opinion and 42 percent unfavorable. When he took office in January, 76 percent had a favorable view and 15 percent unfavorable.
First Lady Michelle Obama bests her husband with a 63 percent favorable rating, down from a high of 73 percent favorable in April.
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i think beating up on obama about his bowing is good politics for the republicans, bad bad bad politics for the democrats and terrific news for independents because it proves we haven’t been drinking the kool aid out of the white house trough.