Comments on: A Worse Mistake in Cameron’s “Prison Camp” Speech http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech Building a conservatism that can win again Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:50:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: msmilack http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech/comment-page-1#comment-131733 msmilack Thu, 29 Jul 2010 03:18:46 +0000 http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38760#comment-131733 abk1985 what if Israel said what you say -- made it plain and factual that these are the real reasons? what would happen? abk1985
what if Israel said what you say — made it plain and factual that these are the real reasons? what would happen?

]]> By: abk1985 http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech/comment-page-1#comment-131644 abk1985 Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:16:53 +0000 http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38760#comment-131644 I like David and I like his style. However, he will not criticize Israel. The reason is that if you criticize Israel, then the criticism stands as an indictment until Israel does something about what you are criticizing them for. But Israel is not going to do anything, because they have a deadlock. WRT the settlements, I believe that most Israelis and including most of the governing elite would like to do something about it. But they cannot, otherwise the rightwing will turn against them, and perhaps even leave Israel. Israel will never do anything about the settlements: the settlers are extremists and are perfectly willing to take up arms against the IDF. To avoid civil war, the Israeli elites pretend there is no problem. No Neocon will ever demand, via criticism, that Israel do something it simply cannot do. Halting the settlers and even rolling back the settlements is something Israel will NEVER do. If you demand that Israel do something, and they cannot do it, then you are, in effect, de-legitimizing Israel. If you de-legitimize Israel, then you are arguing against a core interest of the Jewish people, i.e., having their own national home. If you argue against a core interest of the Jewish people, then you are opposing Jewish interests, and are therefore anti-Semitic. This is how anyone who criticizes Israel for anything becomes, after a couple of logical leaps, an Anti-Semite. I have no idea how Israel will shake out. I do know that, not being a Neocon, I don't have to have wish fulfillment fantasies about "just one more war" that will make the Arabs and the Palestinians thankful for having Israel in their midst. And, because I am not a Neocon, I don't have to have the cognitive dissonance of being silent about/defending a political regime under which I would not under any circumstances want to live or want my children to grow or live. Unfortunately, that's David's problem. I like David and I like his style. However, he will not criticize Israel. The reason is that if you criticize Israel, then the criticism stands as an indictment until Israel does something about what you are criticizing them for. But Israel is not going to do anything, because they have a deadlock. WRT the settlements, I believe that most Israelis and including most of the governing elite would like to do something about it. But they cannot, otherwise the rightwing will turn against them, and perhaps even leave Israel. Israel will never do anything about the settlements: the settlers are extremists and are perfectly willing to take up arms against the IDF. To avoid civil war, the Israeli elites pretend there is no problem.

No Neocon will ever demand, via criticism, that Israel do something it simply cannot do. Halting the settlers and even rolling back the settlements is something Israel will NEVER do. If you demand that Israel do something, and they cannot do it, then you are, in effect, de-legitimizing Israel. If you de-legitimize Israel, then you are arguing against a core interest of the Jewish people, i.e., having their own national home. If you argue against a core interest of the Jewish people, then you are opposing Jewish interests, and are therefore anti-Semitic. This is how anyone who criticizes Israel for anything becomes, after a couple of logical leaps, an Anti-Semite.

I have no idea how Israel will shake out. I do know that, not being a Neocon, I don’t have to have wish fulfillment fantasies about “just one more war” that will make the Arabs and the Palestinians thankful for having Israel in their midst. And, because I am not a Neocon, I don’t have to have the cognitive dissonance of being silent about/defending a political regime under which I would not under any circumstances want to live or want my children to grow or live. Unfortunately, that’s David’s problem.

]]> By: mj http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech/comment-page-1#comment-131639 mj Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:10:01 +0000 http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38760#comment-131639 Stefano, might want to check out this essay: Spies, Passports, and The Guardian Double standards. http://weeklystandard.com/blogs/spies-passports-and-ithe-guardiani Stefano, might want to check out this essay:

Spies, Passports, and The Guardian
Double standards.

http://weeklystandard.com/blogs/spies-passports-and-ithe-guardiani

]]> By: Stefano http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech/comment-page-1#comment-131498 Stefano Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:34:54 +0000 http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38760#comment-131498 Brad: I am not familiar with the Russian passport scandal. Could you provide a link so I can read up on it? Brad: I am not familiar with the Russian passport scandal. Could you provide a link so I can read up on it?

]]> By: msmilack http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech/comment-page-1#comment-131488 msmilack Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:27:55 +0000 http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38760#comment-131488 Co Independent Perhaps I do not fit your concept of a leftie but certainly other commenters have accused me of such which I mention only because I very much care about the survival of Israel as does everyone I know who votes Democratic so I don't think you want to really generalize like that; Israel is a far more complex issue than simply right or left. Co Independent

Perhaps I do not fit your concept of a leftie but certainly other commenters have accused me of such which I mention only because I very much care about the survival of Israel as does everyone I know who votes Democratic so I don’t think you want to really generalize like that; Israel is a far more complex issue than simply right or left.

]]> By: Vincent http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech/comment-page-1#comment-131486 Vincent Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:27:00 +0000 http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38760#comment-131486 I personally think Cameron has not said anything wrong. After all Turkey is and will remain the most progressive muslim country for the foreseeable future. I generally respect David's opinion even when disagreeing with him. Nevertheless I find him very biased toward Israel. Since I started reading this forum a couple of motnhs ago never and I say never have I seen him criticizing Israel. I'd be happy to be proven wrong but In the meantime despite his progressive and realistic views on many issues I find David as Biased when it comes to Israel as Rush Limbaugh and others are when it comes to Obama. Saying that Turkey is helping Hamas by bringing emergency supplies is wrong. That is putting Turkey in the same bag as Iran and Syria which it obviously is not the case... I personally think Cameron has not said anything wrong. After all Turkey is and will remain the most progressive muslim country for the foreseeable future.

I generally respect David’s opinion even when disagreeing with him. Nevertheless I find him very biased toward Israel. Since I started reading this forum a couple of motnhs ago never and I say never have I seen him criticizing Israel.

I’d be happy to be proven wrong but In the meantime despite his progressive and realistic views on many issues I find David as Biased when it comes to Israel as Rush Limbaugh and others are when it comes to Obama.

Saying that Turkey is helping Hamas by bringing emergency supplies is wrong. That is putting Turkey in the same bag as Iran and Syria which it obviously is not the case…

]]> By: mickster99 http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech/comment-page-1#comment-131415 mickster99 Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:48:12 +0000 http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38760#comment-131415 Ugh. More rightwing agitprop. The other guy (Cameron) says something we don't agree with ergo he said something evil. Not just simply saying that from our point of view it's wrong. But no. Evil. So would rightwingers claim it satanically evil? The need to cleanly partition the world into good and evil. black/white us/them is, from my perspective, pretty useless and stupid and harmful. More of the Beck/Palin/Levine/Bachman/Falwell we're good they're evil. So wearisome is the right but so predictable. Ugh. More rightwing agitprop. The other guy (Cameron) says something we don’t agree with ergo he said something evil. Not just simply saying that from our point of view it’s wrong. But no. Evil. So would rightwingers claim it satanically evil? The need to cleanly partition the world into good and evil. black/white us/them is, from my perspective, pretty useless and stupid and harmful. More of the Beck/Palin/Levine/Bachman/Falwell we’re good they’re evil. So wearisome is the right but so predictable.

]]> By: Brad Brzezinski http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech/comment-page-1#comment-131365 Brad Brzezinski Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:35:32 +0000 http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38760#comment-131365 Stefano: Why was there no uproar over the Russian spies who used fake British passports? The only explanation is that Israel is a convenient whipping boy. Stefano: Why was there no uproar over the Russian spies who used fake British passports? The only explanation is that Israel is a convenient whipping boy.

]]> By: msmilack http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech/comment-page-1#comment-131343 msmilack Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:55:24 +0000 http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38760#comment-131343 Hasn't the same thing happened in Israel that is happening in Turkey which is that the fundamentalists have taken the power? Hasn’t the same thing happened in Israel that is happening in Turkey which is that the fundamentalists have taken the power?

]]> By: Stefano http://www.frumforum.com/a-worse-mistake-in-cameron%e2%80%99s-prison-camp-speech/comment-page-1#comment-131318 Stefano Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:08:25 +0000 http://www.frumforum.com/?p=38760#comment-131318 David, you seem to be forgetting about the Israeli fake-passport incident from a few months back. I think that people both in the government and the electorate are still upset that an "ally" stole British passports for the purpose of carrying out an assassination. David, you seem to be forgetting about the Israeli fake-passport incident from a few months back. I think that people both in the government and the electorate are still upset that an “ally” stole British passports for the purpose of carrying out an assassination.

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